The Klonopin Klub#2

[[Fi...]]

Hi I have been holding and I decide yesterday to make a small cut bc I had increased sxs not in good shape, low fever and body aches double vision off balance to name the most annoying ones... what r your thoughts?

 

I think that how you feel after the cut will be your gauge.  I too just made a cut after not feeling great and today I feel some relief.  I'm am doing a symtoms based taper with holds. 

 

What dose are you at and how much did you cut?  It also helps to keep track on a daily basis on how you feel.  I printed out a blank monthly calendar and I make little notes on sleep, mood, and doses.  I also make note when I cut and rate the day from 1-10.

That's just my system.

 

I also started a progress log here on BB at the suggestion of someone. You can find the place to start one on the home page. I dont write in it every day but that's another way to track.

 

On last thing, I recently have been trying to separate out what the side effects of the medication are verses wirhdrawal symtoms.  For example, a side effect of Klonipin is depression and I have struggled with that quite a bit during my very slow tape. I'm hoping as I get lower, that particular symptom will lift because there is less medication in my system.

that's great FH, oh I have been depressed bc of the wd it has ruined my life for the moment not to mention the no validation..i had to wd bc of tolerance my cut was of 3.5%... yes i hope too the lower I get the better i feel.. im t 0.27 from 0.5 k  and you?

 

You are getting there.  I'm  down to 0.540 from .625. 

I've had ti fo so slowly due to being pollydrugged.

Today I'm having a small window and it's a relief after a stretch of hard days.

I was also pollydruged I was ct from paxil after 4 months and from there I started with depression and anxiety and I listened to the Dr. I am on celexa 5mg and now 0.27  K 

Im nervous bc the AD was stimulating and was not able to go up and another site said to taper the AD bc of sleep but the benzo I felt I should get rid of.. I thought to hold and taper the ad later on but Im to symptomatic, any thoughts?

 

I'm sorry you were CT of Paxil and now on Celexa.  I think I know the other site you are referring to and they do suggest tapering the AD first and then the benzo. 

 

I tapered my other meds first not knowing the guidelines and then ended up on a benzo again due to a fast jump off Lamictal. 

 

I think the questions to ask yourself are: is the depression and anxiety coming from the CT withdrawal of Paxil?  Is the Celexa helping with the depression and anxiety?  Do you feel like your benzo taper is moving along and the Celexa is stabilizing you?  What are the side effects of Celexa? 

And ultimately, what medication causes the most issues with sleep?

 

I can't advise you what to do but I am a big fan if using the bodys reaction as a gauge. 

 

I think choosing one path and then going with it unless you feel you have to make an adjustment is the best way to go.

[[bo...]]

FH, the paxil wd was also 2 years ago and I was still pretty average some days I had no energy buT was able to work, the moment I started klonopin my already poor energy was cut in half not to mention sxs, tolerance. the celexa did help me with the depression, klonopin screwed me up... Im suffering the wd effects, which drugs did you come off before the benzo?

[[Fi...]]

FH, the paxil wd was also 2 years ago and I was still pretty average some days I had no energy buT was able to work, the moment I started klonopin my already poor energy was cut in half not to mention sxs, tolerance. the celexa did help me with the depression, klonopin screwed me up... Im suffering the wd effects, which drugs did you come off before the benzo?

 

Hi Bonty,

 

I was on benzo in 2013-2014, tried coming off on my own knowing nothing about benzo withdrawal. Put on Mirtazapine and then Lamictal. Once I was on Lamictal, I stopped the Clonazapam.

 

I came off of Mirtazapine in 2017 after a little over a 2 year taper. I also tapered off of Lamictal but it ended badly when the medication became paradoxocal.  It was making me hyper instead of calming me down.  I jumped too high at 5.4 mgs after tapering for over 3 years from 200mgs.  I tapered both meds together for a majority of the time with a 6 month gap

 

Because the Lamictal taper went wrong, I was put back on Clonazepam.  It broke my heart but I wasn't  sleeping and was so sick. 

 

Clonzapam causes depression and fatigue among other side effects. 

[[Qu...]]

Hi all,

 

So this a little complicated (to me at least!).

 

I was rapid tapered off 2 mgs of K. Actually I got myself down to .75 pretty easily, but then r/t the rest of the way. That part was hell. Like walking through fire every day. Then I spent four months off, constant anxiety of the worst kind and after two months, almost constant akathisia. Pacing for 16-18 hours a day. Eventually there came a time when I knew I had to either reinstate or something bad was going to happen.

 

Reinstatement meant 3mgs K. It's been about two weeks now I think. I take 1 mg 3 times a day and still I have interpose withdrawal. Constant despair and total anhedonia. I have no interests other than thinking about Benzos.  Don't know how to start tapering down. I'm worried that if I already have interdose withdrawal in the beginning, then how am I suppose to handle tapering for months or years?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

[[Ro...]]

I’m almost in the same situation. If you have any advice, please share with us...

[[Li...]]

I was rapid tapered off 2 mgs of K. Actually I got myself down to .75 pretty easily, but then r/t the rest of the way. That part was hell. Like walking through fire every day. Then I spent four months off, constant anxiety of the worst kind and after two months, almost constant akathisia. Pacing for 16-18 hours a day. Eventually there came a time when I knew I had to either reinstate or something bad was going to happen.

 

Reinstatement meant 3mgs K. It's been about two weeks now I think. I take 1 mg 3 times a day and still I have interpose withdrawal. Constant despair and total anhedonia. I have no interests other than thinking about Benzos.  Don't know how to start tapering down. I'm worried that if I already have interdose withdrawal in the beginning, then how am I suppose to handle tapering for months or years?

Hello, QQ. 

 

You certainly have had a rough time of it.  Did the reinstatement help with the akathisia?  Have you considered dosing 4 times a day instead of 3 (while keeping your dose constant)?

 

I read on another board that you are also considering substitution.  Do I have it right that you are not keen on diazepam b/c of the possibility of increasing depression?  But you are interested in learning more about Librium?  If so and you haven’t already discovered this on your own, you might want to do a search and read of posts by a Buddie named gardener99.  She used Librium and recently made it to zero!  She also has a progress log at:

 

Gardener's Collection

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137858.100

 

That’s all that comes to mind at the moment.  I hope it helps!

 

L

[[Qu...]]

Libertas,

I'm on 1mg pills, three times a day, so I'm not sure how to turn that into 4 doses. I guess I could dissolve them all in milk and just put it in four glasses?

 

the akathisia is completely gone. I get itchy, which I think is a very mild form of the same thing, so it makes me worried about cutting. But that was one really good thing about reinstating. if I hadn't had that one symptom I think I could have powered through.

 

I read gardener's progress log. Very interesting. Very smart. It's also true that we are starting out at very different doses, and so when I read about people taking 4 years I start to freak out. the would make my time 8 years or more. But that's down the road.

 

She also mentions that librium increased her depression. So I just don't know what to do with the substitution business. Maybe Ill just go down with K.

 

How is your taper going?

[[Fi...]]

Hi all,

 

So this a little complicated (to me at least!).

 

I was rapid tapered off 2 mgs of K. Actually I got myself down to .75 pretty easily, but then r/t the rest of the way. That part was hell. Like walking through fire every day. Then I spent four months off, constant anxiety of the worst kind and after two months, almost constant akathisia. Pacing for 16-18 hours a day. Eventually there came a time when I knew I had to either reinstate or something bad was going to happen.

 

Reinstatement meant 3mgs K. It's been about two weeks now I think. I take 1 mg 3 times a day and still I have interpose withdrawal. Constant despair and total anhedonia. I have no interests other than thinking about Benzos.  Don't know how to start tapering down. I'm worried that if I already have interdose withdrawal in the beginning, then how am I suppose to handle tapering for months or years?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

I have learned that the heavy, anhedonia, despair and ruminative thinking are all part if the side effects of the medication.  That we feel awful, not just because of the withdrawal symtoms but because of the side effects.  It was eye opening to see what the side effects were for Clomzapam.  So, it may not be interdose withdrawal.  I'm not saying it's not but I was also told that as we get lower some of the side effects can start to lift.  Still will get withdrawal symptoms but the side effects can ease. 

 

Just a different perspective.

 

[[Li...]]

Hello again, QQ.

 

I am so happy to learn that your akathisia is gone!

 

Re: how to divide three 1mg tablets across 4 doses ... if my math is right, you would need 0.75mg per dose (0.75 times 4 = 3).  The “dissolve in milk then divide across doses” approach might work.  (I am not convinced that clonazepam actually dissolves in milk b/c I have found zero empirical evidence to support this claim.  What I have found is evidence that, among the commonly used benzos, clonazepam has the lowest lipid solubility.  This leads me to wonder if using the milk method with clonazepam actually produces a true solution.)

 

However, I digress.

 

Another way to get to 0.75mg would be to cut your 1mg pills into quarters using an exacto knife/razor blade.  Although pill-splitting is not as accurate as other methods, it could work in your case b/c you would still be taking your entire daily dose of 3mg within one day.

 

Or, you could ask your pdoc if s/he would be willing to prescribe regular 0.5mg tablets that are scored. 

 

Or, you could ask your pdoc if s/he would be willing to prescribe a combination of regular 0.5mg tablets and the 0.25mg orally disintegrating tablets.

 

I’m just brainstorming here.  All of the above may require too much time/effort/hassle to implement.

 

Good for you for reading gardener’s progress log.  I haven’t so didn’t know that Librium increased her depression.  Have you conducted a search of the med literature on this?  Is it a known side effect of Librium? 

 

In my mind, the jury is still out re: substitution.  Based on what I’ve read here on BB, it works for some but not for others.  I have read of one Buddie who switched from clonazepam to diazepam and seems to be doing well.

 

 

 

Edit: per Libertas’s request

 

[[NJ...]]

Hi all,

 

So this a little complicated (to me at least!).

 

I was rapid tapered off 2 mgs of K. Actually I got myself down to .75 pretty easily, but then r/t the rest of the way. That part was hell. Like walking through fire every day. Then I spent four months off, constant anxiety of the worst kind and after two months, almost constant akathisia. Pacing for 16-18 hours a day. Eventually there came a time when I knew I had to either reinstate or something bad was going to happen.

 

Reinstatement meant 3mgs K. It's been about two weeks now I think. I take 1 mg 3 times a day and still I have interpose withdrawal. Constant despair and total anhedonia. I have no interests other than thinking about Benzos.  Don't know how to start tapering down. I'm worried that if I already have interdose withdrawal in the beginning, then how am I suppose to handle tapering for months or years?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

It just may take a while longer for the reinstatement to kick in. You may also need a little more k ... sometimes when people reinstate, they need more. But if you can wait it out a little to see how things go, you may feel better in another week or so. I know it's hard to be patient. I would not worry about how to taper yet. Just get stable, go from there. I am sorry that you went through this, I tried twice before to do rapid tapers from 1 mg of K and both times ended up reinstating before getting to zero. Then tried slow and that didn't work too well either, so here I sit still at .75 mg of K for about a year now. Good luck to you ... it's terrible that any of us have to go through this.

[[Qu...]]

Thanks everyone. Yeah, now its this deep grief and anhedonia. Maybe it will help with tapering. maybe it will get worse. I like these BB but its hard because we only know what is happening to us as individuals and what might be working, but then it might be a wave or a window that has nothing to do with what we are doing. I wonder how many possible suppliment/medication/treatment modalities hav been dismissed by the community because a few key people utilized them at the moment when they went into a wave?

[[Fi...]]

Thanks everyone. Yeah, now its this deep grief and anhedonia. Maybe it will help with tapering. maybe it will get worse. I like these BB but its hard because we only know what is happening to us as individuals and what might be working, but then it might be a wave or a window that has nothing to do with what we are doing. I wonder how many possible suppliment/medication/treatment modalities hav been dismissed by the community because a few key people utilized them at the moment when they went into a wave?

 

I get it. I had deep grief and anhedonia all day yesterday and it was hard. 

 

I so think that you have to sift through what works for you and that takes nerves of steel sometimes.  For example, I use magnesium gylcinate yet for others it dosent work.  I use melatonin to help me sleep and for others it's a no go. 

 

I listen to the major precautions and then try my best with what works for me.

 

All I know is that despite the disconnect from self this medication has causes me, I have to believe the success of others who have gotten off. 

 

 

 

 

[[De...]]

Hi everyone.

 

Hope you are all feeling well. I am tapering k as well. So much fun. I started a dlmt a couple weeks ago. I use milk. Is that ok. Does it dissolve ok. I feel ok. Well today anyway. Im down from 1 mg to .800. I think it might have been a big cur but im not to bad. J7st worrying aboutbthe milk. Any thoughts?

[[Fi...]]

Hi,

 

From what I have read, full fat milk is a good choice.

 

There is a guy on YouTube called Crazy Canuck who explains his taper and he used mild successfully. 

[[De...]]

Thanks fh,

I got nervous. My bf asked me and i a little nervous. I did watch crazy chanuck. Very helpful. This whole tapering thing is nerve racking for sure. Hope you are feeling ok.

[[Fi...]]

I think there have been many people who do milk.

 

I understand the nervousness. 

 

I'm having a tough time right now, very bad wave for the past 4 days. 

[[Ma...]]

Thanks fh,

I got nervous. My bf asked me and i a little nervous. I did watch crazy chanuck. Very helpful. This whole tapering thing is nerve racking for sure. Hope you are feeling ok.

 

I use whole milk 

[[Co...]]

Hi everyone.

 

Hope you are all feeling well. I am tapering k as well. So much fun. I started a dlmt a couple weeks ago. I use milk. Is that ok. Does it dissolve ok. I feel ok. Well today anyway. Im down from 1 mg to .800. I think it might have been a big cur but im not to bad. J7st worrying aboutbthe milk. Any thoughts?

 

Although using something like milk might work, there is actually no empirical evidence to support its effectiveness. There is anecdotal evidence from fellow travellers, but this is difficult to quantify (and verify). I understand that Klonopin has low water and lipid (fat) solubility. Maybe an approved suspension medium such as Ora Plus would be the better way to go. Though, whatever you do, your should first talk with your pharmacist regarding any suggestions gathered from the Internet (including mine).

 

If you are determined to go do down the home-brew route, I strongly suggest that any Klonopin liquid or suspension you make should be created immediately before use and not stored. The reason for this is because we do not know how Klonopin (or any benzodiazepine) will degenerate over over time in a non-tested solution/suspension (even after a short time). An off-the-shelf solution/suspension medium might allow you store the liquid for a time (again, talk with your pharmacist - I'm only guessing).

 

Please let us know what your pharmacist suggests.

[[De...]]

Thanks Colin!

Wow. I have been making five day solutions. I have bern kerping them in the fridge. Ugh. I hope im ok. I feel so so. I eill check with my pharmacist and let you know. I appreciate your help. ☺

I use (4) 1 mg pills of clonzanapam mixed with 50 ml milk.

1 mg = .173 grams

That makes 5 doses at 10 ml each (5 days worth).

Each dose 10 ml fose is .800 mg.

 

I hope this makes sense my bf did it

[[De...]]

Sorry you are in a wave fh. I am feeling kind of off myself. I really am so sick of this. I worry alot too like you. It serms more since my cut. Maybe its chemical? I am so overwelmed with how long yhis takes. It can be very frightening and it makes me depressed. I hope your wave lifts soon. What a way to live in an alternaye univetse in windows and waves. Thats how it feels to me. ❤

[[De...]]

Hi M!

I think valium suspend good in milk. I font know? I hate k. Why cant it be soluable in milk. I have been taking it that way for two weeks. Yikes

[[Co...]]

Thanks Colin!

Wow. I have been making five day solutions. I have bern kerping them in the fridge. Ugh. I hope im ok. I feel so so. I eill check with my pharmacist and let you know. I appreciate your help. ☺

I use (4) 1 mg pills of clonzanapam mixed with 50 ml milk.

1 mg = .173 grams

That makes 5 doses at 10 ml each (5 days worth).

Each dose 10 ml fose is .800 mg.

 

I hope this makes sense my bf did it

 

Well, I am just sorry that I cannot provide you with something more solid. But if you find something works for you, good. There is a lot of supposition about what works and what does not. But, the honest answer when these questions arise is that we do not know the strength of validity, reliability (or even safety) of any home-brew solutions (no pun intended). Pharmacology and pharmacokinetics are tough. There is lot of science behind a simple pill or liquid medicine. Any changes or adaptions we make might have unintended consequences. I suppose I am posting a reality check for everyone - this is not really aimed at you in particular.

 

I can only repeat what I wrote in my last post: talk with your pharmacist.

 

I am glad that your taper is working out for you.

[[Co...]]

Hi M!

I think valium suspend good in milk. I font know? I hate k. Why cant it be soluable in milk. I have been taking it that way for two weeks. Yikes

 

I understand that Valium is highly lipid soluble. So, on the face of it, it would seem more suitable to use in milk. But a couple of things to keep in mind: 1) is there enough lipid content in whatever amount of milk you are using to suspend all the Valium (remember, only 4% of the milk is fat); 2) and even if there is enough fat, we do not know what effect fillers and other ingredients will have upon the solubility.

 

I am not trying to scare anyone. I am just pointing out that there is a lot of supposition going on. Given that we are very far from certain of effective solubility of any benzodiazepine within any home-brew, if a such a brew is utilised, perhaps something which acts more as a suspension would be a better, more reliable route. Again, though, I have no idea about keeping any solution or suspension.

[[De...]]

Thanks Colin!

 

I am really glad you told me this. Id rather kmow than be hit with any surprises. I called the pharmacist. One was very rude and said she could not tell me. The other  one looked for me and said she didnt see any studies. I asked what i could usecand she said she didnt know.  Im getting the impression they cant give us much info. Of course..ugh

I am wondering if i should just dry cut if thst is what it is called. Kinda nervous.

[[Co...]]

Thanks Colin!

 

I am really glad you told me this. Id rather kmow than be hit with any surprises. I called the pharmacist. One was very rude and said she could not tell me. The other  one looked for me and said she didnt see any studies. I asked what i could usecand she said she didnt know.  Im getting the impression they cant give us much info. Of course..ugh

I am wondering if i should just dry cut if thst is what it is called. Kinda nervous.

 

Does your present system work for you? I can't be more specific than that in my answer. I am more than willing to admit to not knowing the answer. And very unwilling to claim that I do have answers to something I know little about. I can work on the basic maths, that kind of thing, and chew the fat. But there is world of difference between that and actually knowing. Again, you, me, and 99.9% of us here are up against years of study at university level. It would be bit much for us to suppose what any of us might do here will be fine (especially for others).

 

Why are making changes? What's the problem?

 

PS I'm logging off for the night. I'll try to reply tomorrow if you have replied.