Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[se...]]

Hang in there seekingtoheal; you have had the strength to make it this far;

 

The positive results come after the pain sometime.

 

Thx Twbd1ila.

[Guest [An...]]

I don't agree at all that western medicine is broken.  Docs are the some of the greatest beings on this planet, IMO.  I have a degree in the medical field and also worked in the medical field and I have nothing but great respect for docs.  I think they are fantastic and the overwhelming majority of them truly want to help people.  I wanted to be a doc myself when I was younger.  Getting wisdom teeth out is important and is not a man-made up medical condition.  If you don't get them removed then when they come in they may crowd the other teeth and make them crooked and then you could have chewing issues and other serious dental problems.  Also orthopedic insoles have helped millions of people not have foot and leg pain.  It's important to have good alignment in your spine and body.  I know a few people who have sleep apnea and will die without their CPAP machines.

 

I specifically asked my GP years ago about supplements to help during menopause and she said outright that they aren't trained in the risks and benefits of supplements which aren't approved by FDA.  My gynecologist was much more open to these things and she had reference articles in her waiting room.  I guess supplements are the domain of the naturopaths...

 

Yes, there are legit cases of each one of those ailments. I would like to see how many actually needed them to begin with though. Apnea for example. How many people are hooked on a CPAP machine and never needed it? I would be bold enough to say 70% at least. If all you have is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail. Sleep centers SPECIFICALLY look for apnea. How many on this very board have gone because they can't sleep, only to be told "yeah you don't have apnea, good luck".

 

And then there's the lucrative side. Work insurance pays for most apnea machines, which in reality mean YOU pay for it, but with money that was yours, but never made it to your hands because it was as part of an "Insurance package". What an awesome racket. They make you pay with your own money for a machine you never needed, and they make you feel special because you didn't have to use your "net" left over cash to do it.

 

With that said, there are some phenomenal doctors. The orthopedic surgeon that operated my elbow 15 years ago was phenomenal. The sports therapist I was seeing for years afterward was great as well.

 

The GP's seem to be far behind. They are people who finished their studies about 30 years ago, and are still stuck doing things the way they were done 30 years ago.

If I were a GP, I'd be keeping my knowledge fresh with the latest information. I would not be wary of suggesting natural remedies/strategies to deal with many ailments. And I would leave drugs as a last resort. When I went to the doc, why couldn't the doc say "have you tried Valerian, or Passionflower to sleep?". I'd probably think "no, I haven't tried those things, it didn't occur to me at the moment". I'd probably have gotten by my transient insomnia for a couple of weeks, and would have been back to normal, instead of here.

 

That is what burns me. These guys would not survive IT. We have to keep on top of the latest technology trends, because practically everything that was used 10 years ago is now obsolete, and that's a common trend. In 10 years, what's hot in tech now will be obsolete then. And I'm just dealing with machines. These guys are dealing with human beings that suffer if they make a mistake. Again, that's why we are all here.

 

I'd be fine with GP's asking you to sign a waiver in regards to natural supplement recommendations. I think I'm a smart person, but in the moment I was so desperate, it did not occur to me to try some natural supplements (even though I have a decent knowledge about them). All I needed was someone to push my headspace there, and I would have realized it was worth a shot before moving to these stupid drugs.

[Guest [An...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

[[La...]]

Hello Team Z! I've read your posts and must say some interesting points were made and some great suggestions.

Seeking I want to encourage you to keep going. I know you're feeling the Lunesta withdrawals but it will be temporary. You're smart to tackle one drug at a time. The body has a delicate balance. It's wise not to hit it too hard with too much at once. Things that helped me in early withdrawal is meditation with instrumental soothing music, naming things in alphabetical order when my heart races ( types of flowers, countries, USA states, desserts, etc), slow deep breathing while saying "ahhhhh" softly or rubbing my palms in little slow circles, massaging my scalp in slow small circles while focusing on the circles being made, watching " too cute" on YouTube of baby animals, cuddling with a soft stuffed animal pillow or blanket and playing online card games to distract. Maybe some of the above can help you too. They certainly got me through each hour. I used several in a single day alternating them each hour.

Andros I love how straight forward you are. You made a good point about some doctors are still stuck in antiquated administration of medical relief. Times have changed and advances have been made as well as medicines that were not known much about have manifested long term effects. PLENTY of times patients have been told certain medications were safe ( but was told this when it was fairly new on the market). As time proves all things, they've had to come back and say it's not safe or that dose wasn't safe or yes it can cause this or that after consuming. We all must keep in mind that it's called PRACTICING medicine. That means patients present with an ailment then the physician does a practice run of what he feels would help/cure the issue. Then patients wait and see if it does or cause another issue. Then the same physician in most cases will give another medication PLUS try something else for the original ailment. So in a nutshell they're practicing to cure. Some practice far better than others.

Having said that, I agree with Becks's comment that most physicians mean well when practicing medicine. I believe that most of them are NOT giving medications to make patients worse on purpose. BUT most of them IMO don't take patient reports serious enough.

[Guest [An...]]

Having said that, I agree with Becks's comment that most physicians mean well when practicing medicine. I believe that most of them are NOT giving medications to make patients worse on purpose. BUT most of them IMO don't take patient reports serious enough.

 

I agree 100%. I do think most of those that get into the medical field, do so because they care about people and want to help. My beef with them is that THEY are the experts, or at least are supposed to be.

 

If I am working on a huge infrastructure project for a financial institution, and I mess it up and they have downtime that loses them millions of dollars because I made a mistake, I am in a big cow pie. So I am expected to walk in there knowing what to do. That includes not only having knowledge of what to do, but also knowledge of where and who to ask. That could be extensive documentation on our company portal. That could be peers, and managers.

 

Yet doctors don't bother to do any of that (some do, am I am eternally grateful to them). I would say the majority of doctors, graduate, and then don't bother to keep up with knowledge. And at least half of them have terrible bedside manner to boot and do not know how to listen.

 

It should not be my job to become a medical expert, but they've forced me to. Do you know how much time I have spend reading and studying about these drugs? I knew only basic knowledge before this. Now, I can guarantee you that I can run circles among most GP's in regards to Anxiolytic, Hypnotic, and Anti-depressant drugs.

 

I should force them to learn what I know about IT so they can setup their own internet access directly from the main backbone, and see how they like it.

[[Sh...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

 

For anyone even thinking of doing this.... don’t.

[[Pa...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

 

For anyone even thinking of doing this.... don’t.

 

Hi Shayna,

 

It would be better if you described your experience as to why you don't feel this is a good idea.  Coming right out and saying don't do this is prescriptive and against forum rules.  I understand why you want to alert others about it though, you've had a terrible ordeal.

 

Pamster

[[Sh...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

 

For anyone even thinking of doing this.... don’t.

 

Hi Shayna,

 

It would be better if you described your experience as to why you don't feel this is a good idea.  Coming right out and saying don't do this is prescriptive and against forum rules.  I understand why you want to alert others about it though, you've had a terrible ordeal.

 

Pamster

 

Sorry pamster. It was prescriptive I guess but I’m happy to explain my reasons, most people are familiar with my story tho which is why I don’t reiterate. Xx

 

After a horrific wd from zopiclone I’m now going thru a second horrific wd from Valium. I think that explains it without going into detail, if anyone would like me to be more specific they are more than welcome to contact me where I’ll give them a blow by blow account of just how horrific it’s been.

 

Zopiclone is a beast on my opinion and not like other z drugs. It really does a number on u. Sorry but I was advised by people here that Valium crossover would help and it didn’t. People should know that Valium crossover isn’t always the best method. Just trying to save someone else a lot of pain. Sometimes forum rules are grainy. Like why can people say crossover to Valium it helps but I can’t say don’t do it? Not having a go at u Pam ur a beautiful soul just doesn’t really make sense to me x

 

 

[Guest [An...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

 

For anyone even thinking of doing this.... don’t.

 

Hi Shayna,

 

It would be better if you described your experience as to why you don't feel this is a good idea.  Coming right out and saying don't do this is prescriptive and against forum rules.  I understand why you want to alert others about it though, you've had a terrible ordeal.

 

Pamster

 

Sorry pamster. It was prescriptive I guess but I’m happy to explain my reasons, most people are familiar with my story tho which is why I don’t reiterate. Xx

 

After a horrific wd from zopiclone I’m now going thru a second horrific wd from Valium. I think that explains it without going into detail, if anyone would like me to be more specific they are more than welcome to contact me where I’ll give them a blow by blow account of just how horrific it’s been.

 

Zopiclone is a beast on my opinion and not like other z drugs. It really does a number on u. Sorry but I was advised by people here that Valium crossover would help and it didn’t. People should know that Valium crossover isn’t always the best method. Just trying to save someone else a lot of pain. Sometimes forum rules are grainy. Like why can people say crossover to Valium it helps but I can’t say don’t do it? Not having a go at u Pam ur a beautiful soul just doesn’t really make sense to me x

 

Shayna, I know you are suffering intensely.

 

I think one of the reasons why is that they put you on too little valium to begin with. Once the interdose withdrawals hit, it is almost impossible to get off the very short half life drugs.

 

The idea of switching over is to reduce the withdrawal symptoms. What that means, is, in the case of Zopiclone, if you are at a 7.5mg dose, you can start with 5mg valium, and then increase until the side effects are reduced (which would probably take you to 10mg valium). THEN at this point, start reducing based on what your body can handle. For some people, that might mean 2% a week or even a month.

 

If the switchover to Valium did not reduce the symptoms of the withdrawals, then what was the point? Especially for a long term user.

[[Sh...]]

I was already well into my taper when valium was introduced so... I still think you are better off just coming off short acters. its just prolonged the suffering for me.

[[Pa...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

 

For anyone even thinking of doing this.... don’t.

 

Hi Shayna,

 

It would be better if you described your experience as to why you don't feel this is a good idea.  Coming right out and saying don't do this is prescriptive and against forum rules.  I understand why you want to alert others about it though, you've had a terrible ordeal.

 

Pamster

 

Sorry pamster. It was prescriptive I guess but I’m happy to explain my reasons, most people are familiar with my story tho which is why I don’t reiterate. Xx

 

After a horrific wd from zopiclone I’m now going thru a second horrific wd from Valium. I think that explains it without going into detail, if anyone would like me to be more specific they are more than welcome to contact me where I’ll give them a blow by blow account of just how horrific it’s been.

 

Zopiclone is a beast on my opinion and not like other z drugs. It really does a number on u. Sorry but I was advised by people here that Valium crossover would help and it didn’t. People should know that Valium crossover isn’t always the best method. Just trying to save someone else a lot of pain. Sometimes forum rules are grainy. Like why can people say crossover to Valium it helps but I can’t say don’t do it? Not having a go at u Pam ur a beautiful soul just doesn’t really make sense to me x

 

I get it Shayna and thank you for laying out your thoughts.  You're one of the members who has helped me realize how much worse Zopiclone is than other z-drugs, I've seen your suffering and I'm so sorry.  To tell you the truth, I have a hard time suggesting people on z-drugs cross over to Valium because I'm way more afraid of benzo's than z-drugs but that darn Zopiclone is a beast.

 

I'm so sorry for your suffering, you're such a light on the forum, I can't understand how you're able to support so many feeling like you do but I thank you for it. 

[[Sh...]]

Thanks Pam x well I appreciate you and all the mods because you are doing this out of the kindness of ur hearts and we should be forever greatful for that x

 

I’m happy to be the “don’t take zopiclone poster child” I think maybe there are still some people floating around on the forum that don’t think they are as bad as Benzos but in my case I wish I had have tapered temazepam any day over zopiclone. But I know there are others tapering temazepam too that might not agree. Really it’s all bad isn’t it x

 

But please feel free to send any zoppies my way so I can help them. I don’t plan on going anywhere while there’s still people out there suffering until I pay the debt of the help I’ve received here. Xx

[Guest [An...]]

I am now on day 4 since stopping my stopping my 3 mg Lunesta via 25% a week reductions and am really feeling it. I honestly did not think I would feel it this bad since I am taking klonopin (0.41 mg) as well, but was way wrong.

 

If the equivalency charts for Ashton are even close then in 4 weeks I have went down a decent equivalent to klonopin. Main symptoms are louder tinnitus, burning and tingling hands/feet, some rapid heartbeat and shaking. Have to ride it out.

 

3 mg Lunesta equates 10 mg of valium, (ashton equiv chart) which as I understand is equates to about 0.5 mg of Klonopin

 

This is why I think people that get switched to Valium have such a hard time.

 

Lunesta is Eszopiclone, which is just an isomer of Zopiclone (They molecularly dialed it in so it's even more powerful). Which is why 3mg of it is equal to 7.5mg regular Zopiclone.

 

I believe the Ashton manual is WRONG on the Zopiclone dose. It correctly estimates 3mg of Eszopiclone to be roughly equal to 10mg diazepam. But it INCORRECTLY estimates 15mg Zopiclone to be 10mg diazepam. The TRUE number should be 7.5mg Zop.

 

So people that were on 7.5mg of Zop, that switched over to 5mg diazepam, essentially C/T'd half their dose in one shot. Also Zopiclone is a steel hammer on the receptors, while diazepam is more like a rubber mallet. That's why I read a lot of your guys switched over to diazepam and it didn't make the transition smoother, because you essentially C/T'd your dose. The only advantage that you got is that your inderdose withdrawals should have been reduced in intensity.

 

How come I can figure that out and doctors can't?

 

For anyone even thinking of doing this.... don’t.

 

Hi Shayna,

 

It would be better if you described your experience as to why you don't feel this is a good idea.  Coming right out and saying don't do this is prescriptive and against forum rules.  I understand why you want to alert others about it though, you've had a terrible ordeal.

 

Pamster

 

Sorry pamster. It was prescriptive I guess but I’m happy to explain my reasons, most people are familiar with my story tho which is why I don’t reiterate. Xx

 

After a horrific wd from zopiclone I’m now going thru a second horrific wd from Valium. I think that explains it without going into detail, if anyone would like me to be more specific they are more than welcome to contact me where I’ll give them a blow by blow account of just how horrific it’s been.

 

Zopiclone is a beast on my opinion and not like other z drugs. It really does a number on u. Sorry but I was advised by people here that Valium crossover would help and it didn’t. People should know that Valium crossover isn’t always the best method. Just trying to save someone else a lot of pain. Sometimes forum rules are grainy. Like why can people say crossover to Valium it helps but I can’t say don’t do it? Not having a go at u Pam ur a beautiful soul just doesn’t really make sense to me x

 

I get it Shayna and thank you for laying out your thoughts.  You're one of the members who has helped me realize how much worse Zopiclone is than other z-drugs, I've seen your suffering and I'm so sorry.  To tell you the truth, I have a hard time suggesting people on z-drugs cross over to Valium because I'm way more afraid of benzo's than z-drugs but that darn Zopiclone is a beast.

 

I'm so sorry for your suffering, you're such a light on the forum, I can't understand how you're able to support so many feeling like you do but I thank you for it. 

 

Zopiclone from all I have read, is worse than most Benzos, except maybe some of the most powerful ones like Klonopin. Benzos activate the receptor to allow your natural GABA to have more effect. Zopiclone does it all on its own: it does not need GABA to work at all.

 

Also, based on what I have read, anxiolytic benzos are not nearly as strong as hypnotics. Hypnotics are meant to slam the receptors as hard as they can (so you get knocked out), and then leave the system as fast as possible (to prevent lingering drowsiness). But once tolerance is starting to kick in, then you are effectively C/Ting every day, since the drug is only active 5hr or less before losing 1/2 its strength.

 

The idea of replacing it with Valium, is so that you get a long acting Benzo to replace the short acting one, and smooth the system so you don't hit tolerance.

Also, based on what I've read, if the Z-Drug is still working somewhat (you can sleep but the daytime sides are so bad), then a Valium crossover is likely to help. If you are so bad in tolerance the Zop is not working at all now, then that's a tough one. Crossing over to Valium will probably mean a higher dose to allow sleep again, THEN taper from there.

 

I do understand Shayna's POV though. Ideally you want to not cross over to anything. I didn't, I was a short time user, but I still had 2 months where I literally wanted to die every day.

[[Sh...]]

Yep you have really captured the devastation they cause andros. And true if u haven’t hit tolerance u stand a better chance of an easier taper if there’s such a thing? Once tolerance hits all bets are off.

[[Be...]]

Andros, I completely agree with you about the hypnotic sleeping pills.  I was on short-acting benzo's and Z-drugs at the same time.  I'd a benzo one night and then a sleeping pill other nights.  No wonder I had a seizure at work one day and had horrible anxiety each day.  Interdose w/d was horrible.

[[De...]]

Interesting conversation about the crossover pros and cons.  Last few months I've been thinking maybe I tapered too quickly, as I've read that if you taper nice and slow you might be able to just walk off without much distress.  But I hit tolerance withdrawal on Ambien (zolpidem) years before I understood what was happening, so I had two years of suffering before I realized the cause.  Ambien has a 2 hour half life!! My doc never suggested a crossover, she never heard of Ashton.  And I really didn't think I suffered that much during the taper (no more than I already was anyway)...I guess I am just amazed at how long the recovery takes.

 

No one in the outside world has ever heard of the devastation benzos can cause.  In fact the drugs still enjoy a haven of pharmaceutical bliss associated with a panacea.  News travels so fast these days.  Why doesn't this news travel?  Why is it that doctors aren't trained in this??  I'm so tired of explaining why I can't join social functions ppl look at me like I'm stone cold crazy.

[[Kt...]]

Hi everyone

 

I have a question. I take zolpidem and I’ve been doing a long hold for a while and feeling ok. But I ran out of pills for a while so took some very old ones I had, that had been out of the packet for months. I felt fine whilst taking them, but now that I’ve switched back to freshly bought medication, I’m getting horrendous widhrawals, as if I’ve made a cut - but I’m taking the same amount. Is it possible that the air had done something to the old pills and made them stronger? So that now I’ve switched back, it’s as if I’m on less?...

 

Thanks so much guys

 

Katie

[[Li...]]

Hi everyone

 

I have a question. I take zolpidem and I’ve been doing a long hold for a while and feeling ok. But I ran out of pills for a while so took some very old ones I had, that had been out of the packet for months. I felt fine whilst taking them, but now that I’ve switched back to freshly bought medication, I’m getting horrendous widhrawals, as if I’ve made a cut - but I’m taking the same amount. Is it possible that the air had done something to the old pills and made them stronger? So that now I’ve switched back, it’s as if I’m on less?...

 

Thanks so much guys

Katie

 

 

I have no idea, I always try to take new ones...

Jerry

[[Li...]]

Update from me;

Slowly restart my taper here, I am still not able to swim in the pool, so I spend a lot of time playing my saxophones on the Jamulus program. Spring is here, but is still very cold. Mornings are still tough but I can manage...

I wish you all some nice Easter days, hugggggs Jerry   

[[De...]]

Hi everyone

 

I have a question. I take zolpidem and I’ve been doing a long hold for a while and feeling ok. But I ran out of pills for a while so took some very old ones I had, that had been out of the packet for months. I felt fine whilst taking them, but now that I’ve switched back to freshly bought medication, I’m getting horrendous widhrawals, as if I’ve made a cut - but I’m taking the same amount. Is it possible that the air had done something to the old pills and made them stronger? So that now I’ve switched back, it’s as if I’m on less?...

 

Thanks so much guys

 

Katie

 

How long were you taking the old ones?  Were they expired?  Usually pharmaceuticals retain their potency for many months beyond the expiration.  It wouldn't make sense though that your experience would have meant that the old ones were more potent than the new ones, which would be highly unlikely (more active ingredient would not just form upon sitting in the open air) unless the new ones were the pills that were less potent than labeled.

 

Could also be coincidence that this change was the point at which you developed tolerance.

 

Edit: Fixed quote

 

 

 

 

 

[[Kt...]]

Hi everyone

 

I have a question. I take zolpidem and I’ve been doing a long hold for a while and feeling ok. But I ran out of pills for a while so took some very old ones I had, that had been out of the packet for months. I felt fine whilst taking them, but now that I’ve switched back to freshly bought medication, I’m getting horrendous widhrawals, as if I’ve made a cut - but I’m taking the same amount. Is it possible that the air had done something to the old pills and made them stronger? So that now I’ve switched back, it’s as if I’m on less?...

 

Thanks so much guys

 

Katie

 

How long were you taking the old ones?  Were they expired?  Usually pharmaceuticals retain their potency for many months beyond the expiration.  It wouldn't make sense though that your experience would have meant that the old ones were more potent than the new ones, which would be highly unlikely (more active ingredient would not just form upon sitting in the open air) unless the new ones were the pills that were less potent than labeled.

 

Could also be coincidence that this change was the point at which you developed tolerance.

 

Edit: Fixed quote

 

Thanks so much for your reply. I was taking the old ones for about 6 months - I had loads of them! I don’t think it’s about tolerance, as, since taking the new ones and sleeping so badly, I found 4 more old ones, and slept well whilst taking them...

Maybe the new medication is slightly weaker? But it’s the same brand, just 10mg instead of 5mg, so I halve them (the 5mg has been discontinued).. I thought maybe it’s about the active ingredient not being distributed evenly, but the bad sleep happens with both halves... Do you think it’s possible that 10mg tablets Of the same brand are weaker overall than the 5mg tablets?...

 

Thanks so much again

 

Katie

[[Pa...]]

Hi everyone

 

I have a question. I take zolpidem and I’ve been doing a long hold for a while and feeling ok. But I ran out of pills for a while so took some very old ones I had, that had been out of the packet for months. I felt fine whilst taking them, but now that I’ve switched back to freshly bought medication, I’m getting horrendous widhrawals, as if I’ve made a cut - but I’m taking the same amount. Is it possible that the air had done something to the old pills and made them stronger? So that now I’ve switched back, it’s as if I’m on less?...

 

Thanks so much guys

 

Katie

 

How long were you taking the old ones?  Were they expired?  Usually pharmaceuticals retain their potency for many months beyond the expiration.  It wouldn't make sense though that your experience would have meant that the old ones were more potent than the new ones, which would be highly unlikely (more active ingredient would not just form upon sitting in the open air) unless the new ones were the pills that were less potent than labeled.

 

Could also be coincidence that this change was the point at which you developed tolerance.

 

Edit: Fixed quote

 

Thanks so much for your reply. I was taking the old ones for about 6 months - I had loads of them! I don’t think it’s about tolerance, as, since taking the new ones and sleeping so badly, I found 4 more old ones, and slept well whilst taking them...

Maybe the new medication is slightly weaker? But it’s the same brand, just 10mg instead of 5mg, so I halve them (the 5mg has been discontinued).. I thought maybe it’s about the active ingredient not being distributed evenly, but the bad sleep happens with both halves... Do you think it’s possible that 10mg tablets Of the same brand are weaker overall than the 5mg tablets?...

 

Thanks so much again

 

Katie

 

We may have some pharmacologists who are members, I wonder if you might ask your question of the wider community in  Withdrawal Support (during your taper) which gets the most traffic.  It seems like I've seen this discussion before but can't remember where.

[[Kt...]]

Hi everyone

 

I have a question. I take zolpidem and I’ve been doing a long hold for a while and feeling ok. But I ran out of pills for a while so took some very old ones I had, that had been out of the packet for months. I felt fine whilst taking them, but now that I’ve switched back to freshly bought medication, I’m getting horrendous widhrawals, as if I’ve made a cut - but I’m taking the same amount. Is it possible that the air had done something to the old pills and made them stronger? So that now I’ve switched back, it’s as if I’m on less?...

 

Thanks so much guys

 

Katie

 

How long were you taking the old ones?  Were they expired?  Usually pharmaceuticals retain their potency for many months beyond the expiration.  It wouldn't make sense though that your experience would have meant that the old ones were more potent than the new ones, which would be highly unlikely (more active ingredient would not just form upon sitting in the open air) unless the new ones were the pills that were less potent than labeled.

 

Could also be coincidence that this change was the point at which you developed tolerance.

 

Edit: Fixed quote

 

Thanks so much for your reply. I was taking the old ones for about 6 months - I had loads of them! I don’t think it’s about tolerance, as, since taking the new ones and sleeping so badly, I found 4 more old ones, and slept well whilst taking them...

Maybe the new medication is slightly weaker? But it’s the same brand, just 10mg instead of 5mg, so I halve them (the 5mg has been discontinued).. I thought maybe it’s about the active ingredient not being distributed evenly, but the bad sleep happens with both halves... Do you think it’s possible that 10mg tablets Of the same brand are weaker overall than the 5mg tablets?...

 

Thanks so much again

 

Katie

 

We may have some pharmacologists who are members, I wonder if you might ask your question of the wider community in  Withdrawal Support (during your taper) which gets the most traffic.  It seems like I've seen this discussion before but can't remember where.

 

Thank you again! I’ll do that. When you say you may have seen this discussion before, do you mean the question of whether 10mg tablets have the same amount, proportionately, of active ingredient as the 5mg tablets? (Not the question about being out of date increasing potency)?...

[[Tw...]]

Katie,

 

Sound like you are conscious of the effects.

With my 21 years experience with ambien, I would experience a difference switching from one pharmacy to another one or at least I thought.

As it turns out looking back; I started developing tolerance 5 years before I know what was happening. Looking back, the WD tolerance started with waves that were more intense or less from month to month.

The last few years though, my anxiety, was every day and I developed this weird nerve pain in my leg that I thought was just age related. 

 

Since I started my tapering one month ago, the anxiety/pain are gradually getting better. 

Stay conscious and understand that getting wd tolerence does not start in one night but can develop in waves. For me, I'm feeling a little hopeful which is new for me.

 

Glad you are sharing your experience. 

[[Ka...]]

Andros, cool, thanks for the feedback on a cool wet washcloth, lol!!! Sticking with that for now, but it's great to hear how this device helps you ... will keep it in mind.