Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[cr...]]

Thank you, Mrtmeo, does that mean you  suggest I shouldn't slow down, since the first 10 days were uneventful?  Thanks again.  Cross

[[mr...]]

Thank you, Mrtmeo, does that mean you  suggest I shouldn't slow down, since the first 10 days were uneventful?  Thanks again.  Cross

When tapering, never cut more than 10% on any one cut.

Tapering is usually done when your sx's either stop getting worse or get better.

As far as the liquid valium, you will have to decide whether to try another method and see if that makes a difference or not.

[[Mo...]]

Mrtmeo, thanks for responding.  I don't know that method, my husband handles all of this for me and he is gone until late tonight, otherwise I know he would look that up for me.  Do you know if taking the liquid can make you sick or do I just think I read that somewhere.  I had no problem the first 10 days.  If it does make you sick is it usually just a matter of your body adjusting to it?  I can handle the pain but just want to be sure that if it means I should slow down, the I definitely will slow down.  Thank you.  Cross

 

I am thinking, Cross...if the liquid didn't make you feel different the first round, then it's probably not the liquid?

I've not heard of it making people sick as in SICK but some of us had to get used to the different delivery method and have felt it as a bit of a cut when switching at first . Maybe that's what you read? That people,often switch to liquid and stay in the same dose for a bit to get used to it?

It could  be that it's catching up with you a little, cutting 1 mgr in ten days, although on your dose you're well within the range.

 

So, I tend to agree with Meo and say that it's probably withdrawal happening.

 

When you say sick...do you mean nauseated ? Or flu -ish feeling? Both are common during a taper.

The good thing about liquid si that you can easily hold for a few days. That's what I would do. I wouldn't cut till I felt a bit better if you can't tolerate it. Sometimes the next day it can be gone, just like that.

 

I'm also wondering if you're taking Roxane ( pharma grade liquid) or are you making your own?

 

Right now I wouldn't switch it up again and just wait a few days to see if it gets better, since nothing happened the firsts ten days.

On Valium cuts can be felt quite a bit later though, so my two cents would be to hold a few days and then continue on and see how you feel?

[[Mo...]]

Got some questions that will probably get a better answer here than on the main withdrawal board.

 

So here's the situation. I was on Klonopin as needed for a couple years, never developed a tolerance until last October (2015) and then things went completely sideways.

 

In January, I decided to cross over to Valium because the K was giving me terrible anxiety. I crossed to 2.5 mg, experienced some mind-bending depression and then stabilized after about 3-4 days.

 

Last week I decided to try a cut, and I've been shaving about 1/4 off the pill every night. I'll say right now, yes, I know this was probably a bad idea and that that is a huge cut to make but I wanted to see what would happen. Again, terrible depression and a bit of insomnia but then I seemed to stabilize again after 3-4 days.

 

This morning however, I woke up to some pretty intense tinnitus. I went to see my acupuncturist this afternoon and it's been much more tolerable since then, but it's still there. I'm going to see him again tomorrow for another round of treatment.

 

I'm also seeing my doctor tomorrow to discuss my taper. She's considering prescribing me 2 mg tablets so I can taper down from there.

 

So, my questions are as such, does the tinnitus go away after a big cut like I made or do I need to updose? Will that make it go away? From there, will a daily liquid micro taper alleviate such symptoms? I've heard good things however, it seems to take forever to get to a point where one can jump.

 

Please, no horror stories. I want to have a more positive association with this site because reading accounts from some users makes all this sound utterly terrifying. I'm not thinking this will be easy, but I don't think it has to be debilitating either. I just want to know what the best course of action is so I don't have to give up my life and dreams just to get off this crap.

 

Heya,

 

Increasing tinnitus has always been my first sign of cutting too quick or too much.

Usually it would settle after a holding a bit.

I certainly wouldn't up dose myself because of tinnitus increasing but ride it out on a hold for a bit longer.

Due to the long acting properties of Valium, the symptoms can show up later than just a few days and it's for everyone to find out what their signs and timeline is , individually.

To me it indeed sounds like your 1/4 tab cut was too large and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why, at all.

 

Up dosing doesn't necessarily help for everyone or in any case either. So, that wouldn't be my first go to and especially not if things are settling on your other symptoms, such as depression and not sleeping well.

I've had problems with ringing in the ears throughout my taper, getting way more prominent or coming back after cutting too quick.

 

IMO a daily liquid taper is a good option. This method, which is a micro taper, allows you to cut by small increments but it does not per sé mean it will take longer.

In fact, for many it means keeping a steady pace and not having to hold, thus actually saving time.

I cut 0.5 mgr like that every 17 days or so, using liquid, by cutting 0.05 mgr every day with some holds for me ( looking back I could have cut smaller and just not do holds ).

 

You're right... This doesn't need to be a horror story. As long as you cut sensibly and listen to your body.

For many of us, life as we know it will be on hold a bit. I do not believe in a completely symproms fee taper. It's a process. You sound like you're doing well so far. I just would watch what I cut from now on so you can keep doing the things you like to do and get off this at the same time.

[[Di...]]

 

 

Dear Diaz-Pam,

 

It's been a few weeks since I last posted, but things are going well for me. I have successfully made the switch from pills to liquid Ativan (from a compounding pharmacy), split my 2mg dose into four doses of .5, and have stabilized really well (after a few weeks of not so great).

 

I am now ready to begin my daily micro-taper, but I do not know how fast I should taper.

 

The advice on the boards ranges from 1% per day (7% per week...28% per month), down to 2% per week....8% a month. That's a huge difference, and I just don't know what advice to follow.

 

I'm not looking for a fast taper...I am looking for slow and steady, and successful.

 

You have given me such good advice in the past and I am wondering if you could be so kind as to give me some guidance  on how fast to taper .

 

With many thanks....Tango

 

Hi Tango

 

Are you on Liquid Ativan or Liquid Valium - because this is the valium support thread. I don't have much knowledge of ativan, so I wouldn't like to offer any advice on how much to cut each day.

 

However, the general advice about percentage tapering is to stick with 5-10% every 2-4 weeks, but with a daily liquid taper you tend to not think about percentages at all. They are only really useful in helping you work out where to start with your daily cuts, but then you really need to gauge it by how you feel, or what is often called a "symptom based taper".

 

You might get more advice on either the ativan thread or the microtapering thread.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=135284.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44903.0

 

 

[[Di...]]

 

 

I'm also seeing my doctor tomorrow to discuss my taper. She's considering prescribing me 2 mg tablets so I can taper down from there.

 

So, my questions are as such, does the tinnitus go away after a big cut like I made or do I need to updose? Will that make it go away? From there, will a daily liquid micro taper alleviate such symptoms? I've heard good things however, it seems to take forever to get to a point where one can jump.

 

Please, no horror stories. I want to have a more positive association with this site because reading accounts from some users makes all this sound utterly terrifying. I'm not thinking this will be easy, but I don't think it has to be debilitating either. I just want to know what the best course of action is so I don't have to give up my life and dreams just to get off this crap.

 

No one can really predict how your side effects will be affected, but IMO a daily taper will be your best chance at getting more manageable symptoms, and having a more normal lifestyle.

 

I know a lot of people think that a daily taper will take a long time, but what you have to realise is that if a daily taper takes a long time, then there is every chance the cut and hold taper will have taken longer. That's because a cut and hold taper is a shock to the body every time you cut, and then your body has to recover before you can make another cut. Then there comes a time when you are no longer able to make small enough cuts for the dose you are on, so that recovery time could get longer and longer. However, with the daily taper you are making such small cuts daily that your body has time to slowly adjust to the new dose. So in theory a daily taper, even if it takes a long time, can actually be quicker than cut and hold.

[[cr...]]

 

 

Thank you, Moodle.  I am taking Roxane.  The feeling is nausea and some pain.  When you say hold, does that mean to take the same amount I did last night, .8, instead of taking .7?  And then should I just keep taking the same amount until I feel better.  Or should I go down this mg in 20 days instead of 10?  Sorry, this confuses me so. Thanks to you and Meo for helping me out. Cross

 

I am thinking, Cross...if the liquid didn't make you feel different the first round, then it's probably not the liquid?

I've not heard of it making people sick as in SICK but some of us had to get used to the different delivery method and have felt it as a bit of a cut when switching at first . Maybe that's what you read? That people,often switch to liquid and stay in the same dose for a bit to get used to it?

It could  be that it's catching up with you a little, cutting 1 mgr in ten days, although on your dose you're well within the range.

 

So, I tend to agree with Meo and say that it's probably withdrawal happening.

 

When you say sick...do you mean nauseated ? Or flu -ish feeling? Both are common during a taper.

The good thing about liquid si that you can easily hold for a few days. That's what I would do. I wouldn't cut till I felt a bit better if you can't tolerate it. Sometimes the next day it can be gone, just like that.

 

I'm also wondering if you're taking Roxane ( pharma grade liquid) or are you making your own?

 

Right now I wouldn't switch it up again and just wait a few days to see if it gets better, since nothing happened the firsts ten days.

On Valium cuts can be felt quite a bit later though, so my two cents would be to hold a few days and then continue on and see how you feel?

[[Di...]]

I feel sick right now so I will be short and hope my question is understood.  Have I read that switching from pills to liquid can make you feel sick?  I am doing about 23 mg Valium in pill form and started doing one mg every 10 days in liquid. I did the 1st 10 days and now I am working on the 2nd 10 days.  Last night I took .8.

I have felt sick to my stomach the last two days and wonder if I just just do.8 again tonight and take 20 days instead of 10.  I am also extremely stressed right now with a boatload of situational depression, so don't know if that is why I feel so bad and should just carry on and take .7 tonight. I always read "listen to your body".  I am just not sure if switching to the liquid is causing this or if I even read that.  Hope this makes sense to someone and someone responds.  I am supposed to take my dose in less than 4 hours. Thank you.  Cross

 

So the rate you are cutting is about 3mg every 30 days? That’s about a 13% cut which is probably too much. I think this is the problem rather than the actual liquid. I would personally try to stick to around the 7% per month which is a nice mid-range amount.

 

So two things – firstly you need to reduce what you’re cutting, and secondly are you making these cuts as a one-off cut, or are you doing it progressively as a daily taper? You would be best off cutting a much smaller amount and doing it daily. That’s the main advantage of using liquid, so you might as well take advantage of it.

 

[[ta...]]

 

 

Dear Diaz-Pam,

 

It's been a few weeks since I last posted, but things are going well for me. I have successfully made the switch from pills to liquid Ativan (from a compounding pharmacy), split my 2mg dose into four doses of .5, and have stabilized really well (after a few weeks of not so great).

 

I am now ready to begin my daily micro-taper, but I do not know how fast I should taper.

 

The advice on the boards ranges from 1% per day (7% per week...28% per month), down to 2% per week....8% a month. That's a huge difference, and I just don't know what advice to follow.

 

I'm not looking for a fast taper...I am looking for slow and steady, and successful.

 

You have given me such good advice in the past and I am wondering if you could be so kind as to give me some guidance  on how fast to taper .

 

With many thanks....Tango

 

Hi Tango

 

Are you on Liquid Ativan or Liquid Valium - because this is the valium support thread. I don't have much knowledge of ativan, so I wouldn't like to offer any advice on how much to cut each day.

 

However, the general advice about percentage tapering is to stick with 5-10% every 2-4 weeks, but with a daily liquid taper you tend to not think about percentages at all. They are only really useful in helping you work out where to start with your daily cuts, but then you really need to gauge it by how you feel, or what is often called a "symptom based taper".

 

You might get more advice on either the ativan thread or the microtapering thread.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=135284.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44903.0

[/quote

 

Thanks so much for your help and your advice. Now that I know the ballpark estimates,  I will take your advice, and will aim for the conservative taper.

 

Just so grateful to have someone who I can turn to....Tango

 

 

[[Mo...]]

 

 

Thank you, Moodle.  I am taking Roxane.  The feeling is nausea and some pain.  When you say hold, does that mean to take the same amount I did last night, .8, instead of taking .7?  And then should I just keep taking the same amount until I feel better.  Or should I go down this mg in 20 days instead of 10?  Sorry, this confuses me so. Thanks to you and Meo for helping me out. Cross

 

I am thinking, Cross...if the liquid didn't make you feel different the first round, then it's probably not the liquid?

I've not heard of it making people sick as in SICK but some of us had to get used to the different delivery method and have felt it as a bit of a cut when switching at first . Maybe that's what you read? That people,often switch to liquid and stay in the same dose for a bit to get used to it?

It could  be that it's catching up with you a little, cutting 1 mgr in ten days, although on your dose you're well within the range.

 

So, I tend to agree with Meo and say that it's probably withdrawal happening.

 

When you say sick...do you mean nauseated ? Or flu -ish feeling? Both are common during a taper.

The good thing about liquid si that you can easily hold for a few days. That's what I would do. I wouldn't cut till I felt a bit better if you can't tolerate it. Sometimes the next day it can be gone, just like that.

 

I'm also wondering if you're taking Roxane ( pharma grade liquid) or are you making your own?

 

Right now I wouldn't switch it up again and just wait a few days to see if it gets better, since nothing happened the firsts ten days.

On Valium cuts can be felt quite a bit later though, so my two cents would be to hold a few days and then continue on and see how you feel?

 

Yup, Cross. A hold means exactly that: hold! No cutting. Just take what you took yesterday. And just keep at that same dose till you feel symproms decrease.

 

After I read the post that DiazPam made as a reply to you ( the one you'll find right before this one ) I feel I overlooked something ,too.

Indeed, HOW are you cutting? Are you cutting every day ? 0.1 mgr every day?

I assumed that, seeing you were doing a liquid taper.

What I would do is hold for now and see if that gives you some relief. So you take the same amount of Valium for a bit every day.

 

Our buddie Moya started tapering Valium at about 30 mgr if I recall correctly and cut about the same amount you do now, while still on a higher dose. She slowed down later on, now about 5 mgr.

However, if your tummy is upset and you feel worse then I'd slow it down ,too.

 

I didn't do well on Roxane. I got tummy cramps and could not eat much while on that. It seemed to be too harsh for my stomach. If your hold doesn't provide relief after you wait it out a bit, you might want to look into the vodka method that you can find in Diaz's signature.

It really is not difficult even though it may seem so to you at first. The link explains clearly how and what).

I switched to a compound liquid ( Valium powder in almond oil ) but the opinions here seem to be very diverse on that. I did very well on it myself.

 

Nausea is such a common withdrawal symptom, so I wouldn't write the Roxane off just yet. Maybe wait a week or so and see if it clears up. If it doesn't, I'd look into a different liquid, myself.

 

IMO, the higher doses are still a good place to cut larger than when you go below 10 mgr, I'd say?

But maybe ten days is too much for you, Cross. You could try a bit less agressive and make it 15-20 days. I know people on higher dose usually take advantage of that still and get away with larger cuts.

However, if you don't feel well on it , slow down after you figure out if it's the Roxane that is upsetting your tummy. The goal is to come off of Valium, yes. But IMO in a way that makes it most tolerable and not push through when it could be less bad.

 

Hoping that didn't confuse you,

Moo

 

[[so...]]

Well, today was my first day fully off the Ativan. I hope it was safe to make the jump at the point that I'm at. So far, all I've felt is one stabbing ear pain and some stabbing stomach pain, both of which may or may not be related to this. I do have ear issues which are exacerbated by WD, and the stomach pain never happened until the last time I tried to quit Ativan.

 

Having said that, I've been eating a lot of bad-for-me food in the last couple of weeks (I'm not even a sweets person but I've been going crazy on Oreos, stress eating I guess), and tonight I had a big bowl of popcorn. Not great on the stomach. I need to ease up so I can tell if these symptoms are actually WD!

 

Anyway, I finally made it. Or quickly made it, actually. But as scary as it is, some part of me feels better already. Now it's a whole new journey to taper the Valium (I'm waiting a month before I begin that though, want to make sure I'm stable). Thank you so much to everyone for your advice and support. Sending tons of love to all of you, especially those who are suffering with symptoms as they read this. Hang in there. I'm scared too, but we're gonna make it.

[[Gr...]]

Congratulations solace! I agree with the one month hold before starting valium taper. I had a hard time coming off Xanax and held for one month before tapering valium. So far the valium has been easier than the Xanax.

[[Ki...]]

I asked my doc again to switch me from X to Valium and she agreed, I get my script tomorrow although I dont know the dosage she wrote it out for yet.  Been trying to taper down on X , presently at .312 four doses a day to stave off bad wd symptoms and .5625 at bedtime. Last week the most I slept was 3 hours but last 3 nights only 1-2 hrs a night so now not able to work.  can anyone help me with a place to start? Seems like replacing 1/3 of x with V at night, so is anyone math friendly that can tell me what that would be? is there a link to a chart of a lower dose than the ashton one?

[[Mo...]]

Well, today was my first day fully off the Ativan. I hope it was safe to make the jump at the point that I'm at. So far, all I've felt is one stabbing ear pain and some stabbing stomach pain, both of which may or may not be related to this. I do have ear issues which are exacerbated by WD, and the stomach pain never happened until the last time I tried to quit Ativan.

 

Having said that, I've been eating a lot of bad-for-me food in the last couple of weeks (I'm not even a sweets person but I've been going crazy on Oreos, stress eating I guess), and tonight I had a big bowl of popcorn. Not great on the stomach. I need to ease up so I can tell if these symptoms are actually WD!

 

Anyway, I finally made it. Or quickly made it, actually. But as scary as it is, some part of me feels better already. Now it's a whole new journey to taper the Valium (I'm waiting a month before I begin that though, want to make sure I'm stable). Thank you so much to everyone for your advice and support. Sending tons of love to all of you, especially those who are suffering with symptoms as they read this. Hang in there. I'm scared too, but we're gonna make it.

 

Well done, Solace!

[[cr...]]

DP, thank you for responding.  I take 8mg in pill form in morning and 15 in pill form at night plus at night I started liquid Valium.  The liquid I do .9 the first night then .8 the second night etc.  that takes 10 days and then I start all over again.  I am confused, hope that makes sense.  Don't know what a off cut is but sounds like I am doing a daily taper, taking pills and liquid.What would be 7%, since it looks like I am going down 3 mg a month. Would doing the liquid for 20 days instead of 10 be close to 7%?  Then I would go .9 .9 .8.8 etc  Before this I did cut and hold only and went down 2mg every 2 weeks. Because I have followed you, I asked the doc if I could switch to liquid and this is what he suggested.  He would have no problem if I went slower.  I hope I made sense and you will respond.  Thank you.  Cross

 

So the rate you are cutting is about 3mg every 30 days? That’s about a 13% cut which is probably too much. I think this is the problem rather than the actual liquid. I would personally try to stick to around the 7% per month which is a nice mid-range amount.

 

So two things – firstly you need to reduce what you’re cutting, and secondly are you making these cuts as a one-off cut, or are you doing it progressively as a daily taper? You would be best off cutting a much smaller amount and doing it daily. That’s the main advantage of using liquid, so you might as well take advantage of it.

 

[[so...]]

Congratulations solace! I agree with the one month hold before starting valium taper. I had a hard time coming off Xanax and held for one month before tapering valium. So far the valium has been easier than the Xanax.

 

Thank you, that is encouraging to hear. The Ativan taper without Valium CO was hell. With the V, it was fine. I'm worried about the V taper because there's no CO to help with that! Lol. But hopefully MT will be the ticket.

 

Thanks, too, Moodle!

[[Di...]]

DP, thank you for responding.  I take 8mg in pill form in morning and 15 in pill form at night plus at night I started liquid Valium.  The liquid I do .9 the first night then .8 the second night etc.  that takes 10 days and then I start all over again.  I am confused, hope that makes sense.  Don't know what a off cut is but sounds like I am doing a daily taper, taking pills and liquid.What would be 7%, since it looks like I am going down 3 mg a month. Would doing the liquid for 20 days instead of 10 be close to 7%?  Then I would go .9 .9 .8.8 etc  Before this I did cut and hold only and went down 2mg every 2 weeks. Because I have followed you, I asked the doc if I could switch to liquid and this is what he suggested.  He would have no problem if I went slower.  I hope I made sense and you will respond.  Thank you.  Cross

 

 

Yes, if you're cutting a small amount every day that is a daily liquid taper. So I think the problem then is that you are cutting too much too quickly.

 

If you're on 24mg, and if you wanted to try a 7% per month cut, that would be a total of about 1.6mg per month. So really pretty much half of what you have been cutting because you've been cutting 3mg per month. So instead of cutting 0.1mg everyday, try cutting 0.05mg or 0.06mg per day instead. That would be a good starting point and then you could monitor how you feel after a couple of weeks. If you feel you can increase it a bit it's better to do it in small increments, because every cut you make accumulates and if the total of the cuts over a couple of weeks is more than you can handle then you will feel the effects.

[[cr...]]

Thank you, DP.  Sorry I have one more question.  Is there a big difference in slowness doing .05 instead of of doing I mg in 20 days?  I ask because my husband is doing this measuring and spreadsheets and he says the end result is the same.  He has been a prince taking such good care of me, unless their is an important difference I would rather not ask him to change again, even though he would gladly do whatever needs to be done.  I just have such guilt for all he has to do for me, that's all.  Thank you. It is very important to both of us that I do this slowly and  correctly.  Thank you, again.  Cross

[[Ki...]]

When people say valium is more " depressing" does that mainly refer to the fact that it seems to make everyone wore out tired for a few weeks?

[[Mo...]]

When people say valium is more " depressing" does that mainly refer to the fact that it seems to make everyone wore out tired for a few weeks?

 

I think it's meant to say that it is quite common for people to be depressed on it. Not for a few weeks but just in general.

I know for me the sedation and the not feeling anything ( other than crap, of course  ) made me more depressed.

It did get better during my taper. Of course there are the waves and such but in general the depression because less than when I just started and the zombie feeling went away.

 

I think any benzo can set that on. I think my depression on Ativan was more horrendous.

( I wasn't depressed before that ).

These drugs are designed to not make us feel things. And they did. Until they didn't. Right ?

[[Di...]]

Thank you, DP.  Sorry I have one more question.  Is there a big difference in slowness doing .05 instead of of doing I mg in 20 days?  I ask because my husband is doing this measuring and spreadsheets and he says the end result is the same.  He has been a prince taking such good care of me, unless their is an important difference I would rather not ask him to change again, even though he would gladly do whatever needs to be done.  I just have such guilt for all he has to do for me, that's all.  Thank you. It is very important to both of us that I do this slowly and  correctly.  Thank you, again.  Cross

 

Yes it's the same thing....... 0.05mg x 20 days = 1mg. So see how you go with that. You might find you can increase it, but just take it slowly.

[[cr...]]

Thank you, DP, for helping me and thanks for taking the time to help so many people on this board.  Cross

 

Thank you, DP.  Sorry I have one more question.  Is there a big difference in slowness doing .05 instead of of doing I mg in 20 days?  I ask because my husband is doing this measuring and spreadsheets and he says the end result is the same.  He has been a prince taking such good care of me, unless their is an important difference I would rather not ask him to change again, even though he would gladly do whatever needs to be done.  I just have such guilt for all he has to do for me, that's all.  Thank you. It is very important to both of us that I do this slowly and  correctly.  Thank you, again.  Cross

 

Yes it's the same thing....... 0.05mg x 20 days = 1mg. So see how you go with that. You might find you can increase it, but just take it slowly.

[[Di...]]

Always happy to help! 

[[so...]]

Second day with no Ativan! Tiny amount of temple pain, and I don't think I had even one stabbing pain in my ear or stomach. Woo hoo! Third day is usually the one that's tough, but it's my day off, so at least there's that.

 

I agree about Valium being more of a downer in general, but it gives the same anxiety relief as Ativan. I don't find it to be an extremely depressing thing, just lacking the uplifting quality that Ativan has. But without it, I personally don't know if I could have ever gotten off the A. I was tapering pretty slowly the first time down and it became a real nightmare. The V has made it almost symptom-free. Almost. 

[[Ki...]]

I have read that some benzos like xanax and ativan do have " mild antidepressant qualities". Jeez! So was I happy while I was asleep but missed it? I get my valium script today so I will be on here tonight begging for my crossover plan help. Im trying to view the " mild depression" induced by valium as "vegging out for a few weeks" 😬