Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Di...]]

Wow, I'm not sure what is going on here, and I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be fighting with. I only come here to try to help people. I don't need to get involved in these kinds of silly conversations. I answered a simple question a page or two back, which the poster seemed happy with, and then you weighed in. I'm sorry if you are struggling at the moment, but there is no need to take on the tone you have at the moment.

 

I'm also not sure what is insulting about me saying "If you are really suffering from those symptoms it's "relative withdrawal". That's the truth, and I have not disbelieved anyone. I won't disbelieve anything someone may say they are experiencing because I've been here long enough to have seen a lot. It was a general statement about anyone who might be experiencing symptoms that aren't just normal tolerance.

 

There is so much defensiveness in your posts, and I'm not sure why. All I am doing is trying to get across the correct terminology. Just because "everyone" uses the term "tolerance withdrawal" for people who are actually experiencing "relative withdrawal" doesn't make it right, but using the wrong terminology can terrify a lot of people who don't need to be terrified.

 

btw - I was not a "short term user", and what dose people are on is not relevant because everyone's sensitivity is different. Geez - I really don't need this sh** !!

[[bu...]]

"drug tolerance a decreasing response to repeated constant doses of a drug or the need for increasing doses to maintain a constant response."

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tolerance

 

Tolerance is a common medical phenomenon that occurs with a variety of drugs, and very common to psychoactive drugs.  It means your body has started to make adjustments to presence the drug, and the drug has less, or no, therapeutic effect.  Tolerance is almost a universal characteristic of benzo, and is a major reason benzos are not suitable for long term therapy.  In short, they just quit working. Virtually all users of benzos will become tolerant.  Tolerance does NOT cause any sxs, but the sxs of the original disorder will likely return.

 

Tolerance withdrawal and Relative withdrawal are 2 different terms for the same phenomenon.  Colin (BB admini) prefers Relative withdrawal, but most folks on BB seem to call it Tolerance withdrawal.  What ever you call it, tolerance wd relative wd is NOT the same as tolerance.  Again tolerance simply means the med no longer gives you the desired effect. Tolerance withdrawal is the emegence of specific withdrawal sxs even though you have not reduced your dosage.

Tolerance withdrawal is a very real condition, but only relatively small number of folks will develop tolerance withdrawal

 

Its unfortunate that folks so often say they are "in tolerance" when they really mean they are suffering  "tolerance withdrawal".  Tolerance is a fairly benign condition that simple means the drug is no longer effective, but tolerance withdrawal can produce significant distress.  Again, most folks who have been on benzos for an extended period are already tolerant. "in tolerance", but they are not symptomatic.

 

And...if you have only become symptomatic since starting to lower your dose, that's just plain 'ol withdrawal.  Again, tolerance withdrawal is a condition that emerges while taking a steady dose.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-information/tolerance-and-dependency/

 

[[Ma...]]

builder,

Thank you for that post! That is what I have always thought were the definitions. I had never heard it called relative wd. I see now that Colin calls it that. I don't care what people want to call it. I was in bad tolerance withdrawal for years. I know most haven't experienced it. Also most have, fortunately, not been on it as long. I hope you and everyone else has a good night!

 

XO Maya

[[Di...]]

What builder has posted is pretty much what I've been saying, although it gets so confusing, because what do people mean when they say "tolerance withdrawal"? Are they just tolerant to the dose they are on, as most people probably are, or are they really experiencing the symptoms of "relative withdrawal". The term gets thrown around all the time so then someone, especially a newbie who is simply tolerant to their dose, gets told they will have to do a "tolerance withdrawal". Then they read about other people, who may be experiencing true relative withdrawal symptoms, calling that tolerance withdrawal too, so then they get terrified that it also applies to them when it most probably doesn't. It's no wonder people get confused about it.

[[Ca...]]

I have been following this thread for a while, as I am tapering from Valium. I think this argument over terminology or semantics is distracting from the purpose of this thread, which is for support. IMO, is doesn't matter what we call any type of 'withdrawal'. It's all 'withdrawal' or 'tolerance' to these damn drugs. I've been on them for 16 years. I've experienced 'tolerance withdrawal', 'interdose withdrawal', 'cold turkey withdrawal', and now 'tapering withdrawal'. It's all some form of withdrawal. We need to be here to support each other. And, whatever, underlying condition may have brought us to use and become 'dependent' or 'addictive' to benzos to me is irrelevant. The fact is, they are bad news and haven't made any of us, whether short term or long term user any better or we wouldn't be here trying to fight to get off of them. Please, let's switch the conversation and go back to supporting each other. Aggravating each other over terminology isn't going to help us, but positive support will. None of us want to be here, but we are. We should be thankful that there is this place where we understand what we are going through. The doctors don't understand, our families and friends don't, only we do. We're living it. Let's try to find comfort in that and help each other...Just my thoughts. C

[[ba...]]

BB peeps, I'm with Cafunk on the 'semantics' angle-but let's be friends, already! Builder and in particular Diaz-Pam spend an amazing amount of time on here with supportive and informative explanations; I don't know where or how they manage to post so many great resources .

 

Point being, most/many of us struggling with benzos can get a tad?? cranky, but let's not get too personal, and/or bite the hand that feeds us, so to speak . If anyone really ticks off any of our stalwart volunteer 'coaches' who stick around the board after their own recovery just to help those of us still tapering etc., we all have a lot to lose.

 

So lets play nice . I for one would find it difficult to get from Canada to Australia in order to receive further kind assistance from Diaz-Pam, so unless anyone who's inclined to be picayune-ly critical or argumentative wants to pay my freight, back off on the nartsiness, pleeeeze!! Deep breaths!

[[Di...]]

Thanks Bab. I don't have any immediate plans on going anywhere. I'm like the proverbial old piece of furniture on BB..lol...

[[Al...]]

Thanks Bab. I don't have any immediate plans on going anywhere. I'm like the proverbial old piece of furniture on BB..lol...

 

DP,

 

I'm glad your sticking around. You have helped so many of us!

You can't let one BB chase you off, I'm that person is actually very nice, just not herself due to this taper business.

 

Hugs:

 

 

ATU

 

[[Ki...]]

QUESTION-- Im sure this will get lost here all my stuff does but trying anyway 😬Newly arriving to V from X- I have a question for those who have been there...

Will crossing slowly, like replacing half a mg every 2/3 days give me more "adjusting" time and make the tiredness everyone gets a little less of a WHUMP than crossing fast or ultimately is 10 mg nasty tiring no matter what? I know everyone is different- just wondering. My breathing is kinda slow anyway so Im looking to give myself some time to adapt along the way if it helps.

Thanks y'all!

[[be...]]

DP, thank you for all the support you give us here, and know that it is greatly appreciated, I don't know why things have to become a personal attack,

 

BB to me is a place to come and get advice, whether I take or not is my concern, and to help one another, no bashing allowed, we need to have a

 

safe place to land, after all we have been in this battle to get our life back. Also I applaud you for always keeping a good head on your shoulders,

 

and not losing your cool. The work you do, if a paying job, you would be very rich, we are the wealthy ones because you help us to get our life back.

 

Thank you again for a job well done. 

[[fr...]]

  Very well said BG.  DiazPam, you are greatly valued here and have already helped so many, myself included.  I got so stressed yesterday over this disagreement but lets be kind to each other.  We are all in this together and no one is there to help us except someone who has been through it.  God Bless all of the Mods and the positive ones on here. Lets beat this benzo problem together and get to a place where we feel better. 

[[ar...]]

.005ml per day reduction is still going well.  No holds so far compared to the .01ml daily reduction.  Sticking with the 80/20 rule.

 

One year ago today I hit 4mg using pills.  All hell broke loose at this dose.  When I compare myself to last year tons of healing has taken place and I am still tapering.

 

 

[[Mo...]]

.005ml per day reduction is still going well.  No holds so far compared to the .01ml daily reduction.  Sticking with the 80/20 rule.

 

One year ago today I hit 4mg using pills.  All hell broke loose at this dose.  When I compare myself to last year tons of healing has taken place and I am still tapering.

 

Healing is happening on the way down,I'm convinced of that.

I'm glad the .005 is working for you and going well.

 

Some days when I feel bad it feels like nothing changed. But it did. 

When we still feel so bad with xs, it's a challenge to recognize the things that did improve . And they did improve.

 

You're doing great, Arcade ..

[[ar...]]

.005ml per day reduction is still going well.  No holds so far compared to the .01ml daily reduction.  Sticking with the 80/20 rule.

 

One year ago today I hit 4mg using pills.  All hell broke loose at this dose.  When I compare myself to last year tons of healing has taken place and I am still tapering.

 

Healing is happening on the way down,I'm convinced of that.

I'm glad the .005 is working for you and going well.

 

Some days when I feel bad it feels like nothing changed. But it did. 

When we still feel so bad with xs, it's a challenge to recognize the things that did improve . And they did improve.

 

You're doing great, Arcade ..

 

I agree when we're in the thick of it it's hard to think of what has improved but things overall have improved if we think rationally.

[[Mo...]]

.005ml per day reduction is still going well.  No holds so far compared to the .01ml daily reduction.  Sticking with the 80/20 rule.

 

One year ago today I hit 4mg using pills.  All hell broke loose at this dose.  When I compare myself to last year tons of healing has taken place and I am still tapering.

 

Healing is happening on the way down,I'm convinced of that.

I'm glad the .005 is working for you and going well.

 

Some days when I feel bad it feels like nothing changed. But it did. 

When we still feel so bad with xs, it's a challenge to recognize the things that did improve . And they did improve.

 

You're doing great, Arcade ..

 

I agree when we're in the thick of it it's hard to think of what has improved but things overall have improved if we think rationally.

 

^ what is that word, even?

[[Ho...]]

QUESTION-- Im sure this will get lost here all my stuff does but trying anyway 😬Newly arriving to V from X- I have a question for those who have been there...

Will crossing slowly, like replacing half a mg every 2/3 days give me more "adjusting" time and make the tiredness everyone gets a little less of a WHUMP than crossing fast or ultimately is 10 mg nasty tiring no matter what? I know everyone is different- just wondering. My breathing is kinda slow anyway so Im looking to give myself some time to adapt along the way if it helps.

Thanks y'all!

 

Kitty,

 

I crossed over from X to V in about 6 weeks.  My doc did it a bit non conventionally (not like the Ashton method where she substitutes for the doses), but it worked in the end.  I think it took about 6 weeks.  I had weaned down to 0.75 mg X and was having severe I/D withdrawal.  He started me on 2.5 mg V three times daily on top of the X and then told me to start weaning the X by 0.125 mg every week after a few days on the V.  It was sedating at first but helped with the I/D withdrawals so I didn't mind.  It only took about 2 weeks to get used to the sedation.  I weaned down to a point on the X about 3 weeks in where the V wasn't enough so he increased my V to 5 mg three times daily and I continued to wean off the X.  At the end I started to wean by the X by .0625 mg per week.  Of course when he increased the dose of V again I experienced more sedation but again I adapted to this in about 2 weeks.  I held on my V for 2 weeks once off X (probably should have held 4 because my first cut of V was a doozy), then started my taper.  I don't even notice feeling sedated anymore, just withdrawal symptoms now from my taper.  Hope this helps.  Anyway, there are many ways to get there, you just have to figure out what works for you. 

 

Hope

[[Ki...]]

Thanks Hope!! I have SG and Moo working out a nice schedule for me. Im very gradually replacing X with V. I dont mind it being a longer term process if it helps me to be able to keep working. I felt extreme sedation with just that little dose of valium but I will just go slow and hope to adapt. Im glad you got through your unconventional crossover. Good luck with your reduction and thank you!

[[Di...]]

Thanks everyone for your kind words.

[[la...]]

question all...Is it possible that I NEED to dose 3xs a day with V?

 

I have been finding that I feel weird and "heady" at around 3-4:00pm  (dose at 6:00am)

 

when I was on V before I was dosing 3xs a day v=but when I go down from 15mg to something like 8 I went to 2xs a day and did fine

 

 

so this is confusing to me....I am cutting another .5mg tomorrow even though I feel like crap....just haven't felt more crappier since last cut 2 weeks ago...

[[Mo...]]

question all...Is it possible that I NEED to dose 3xs a day with V?

 

I have been finding that I feel weird and "heady" at around 3-4:00pm  (dose at 6:00am)

 

when I was on V before I was dosing 3xs a day v=but when I go down from 15mg to something like 8 I went to 2xs a day and did fine

 

 

so this is confusing to me....I am cutting another .5mg tomorrow even though I feel like crap....just haven't felt more crappier since last cut 2 weeks ago...

 

Some people do dose more than one or twice, Lainey.

I've always dosed three times a day. But that was because of how I doses with atuvan and kept it like that after crossing over.

 

Just a suggestion : if you feel like crap already, why don't you cut 0.25 this week and the other 0.25 next week if you insist on a two weeks time frame ? Maybe it'll help to not cut 0.5 at once.

 

When you say " heady" do you mean dizzy?

[[Di...]]

I am cutting another .5mg tomorrow even though I feel like crap....just haven't felt more crappier since last cut 2 weeks ago...

 

I honestly don't understand why you keep doing this to yourself. Cut when you already feel like crap will only make you feel like more crap. Sorry, but it's the truth.

 

You know there is a much easier way, and that is keep holding until you do feel less crappy, and then start your daily taper. It's really not a difficult decision to make.

[[bu...]]

question all...Is it possible that I NEED to dose 3xs a day with V?

 

I have been finding that I feel weird and "heady" at around 3-4:00pm  (dose at 6:00am)

 

when I was on V before I was dosing 3xs a day v=but when I go down from 15mg to something like 8 I went to 2xs a day and did fine

 

 

so this is confusing to me....I am cutting another .5mg tomorrow even though I feel like crap....just haven't felt more crappier since last cut 2 weeks ago...

  If you feel like you need 3 doses a day, why don't you just take 3 doses a day?

 

Other folks experiences really don't matter...do whatever your system seems to need.  Popping one more dose each day is certainly no big deal.

[[os...]]

I am cutting another .5mg tomorrow even though I feel like crap....just haven't felt more crappier since last cut 2 weeks ago...

 

I honestly don't understand why you keep doing this to yourself. Cut when you already feel like crap will only make you feel like more crap. Sorry, but it's the truth.

 

You know there is a much easier way, and that is keep holding until you do feel less crappy, and then start your daily taper. It's really not a difficult decision to make.

 

I agree with Diaz-Pam, give yourself a break and feel better for awhile THEN cut.

[[ar...]]

I am cutting another .5mg tomorrow even though I feel like crap....just haven't felt more crappier since last cut 2 weeks ago...

 

I honestly don't understand why you keep doing this to yourself. Cut when you already feel like crap will only make you feel like more crap. Sorry, but it's the truth.

 

You know there is a much easier way, and that is keep holding until you do feel less crappy, and then start your daily taper. It's really not a difficult decision to make.

 

I agree with Diaz-Pam, give yourself a break and feel better for awhile THEN cut.

 

I'll 3rd this.  If you keep cutting the symptoms will continue to add up.

[[be...]]

I am in agreement, why make yourself feel worse, it will just make all this go slower, one step forward, 6 steps backwards. It will not hurt to start

 

when you feel better, My first two tapers were horrible because I had the same mindset, not trying to scare you, but beware of what you may be

 

putting your CNS through, treat it gently and it will serve you better.