Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Ma...]]

Tolerance and tolerance wd are two different things. While tapering it is just withdrawal. It seems like people are mistaking tolerance for tolerance wd and calling tolerance wd relative withdrawal. It is uncommon for short term users, but very long term (especially high dose users) from my own experience and what I have seen usually experienced tolerance wd before tapering. I did experienced tolerance and then later awful tolerance wd. As for it being the underlying condition, that's what Drs who don't know understand Benzos say. In someone like me who was rxed since 2002, it hasn't helped my anxiety in over 10 years and I was never depressed until I was K for 6+ years on 6-8mgs (120-180mgs of V). Also studies now show Benzos are bad for PTSD. I also have done a lot of therapy over the years for managing anxiety. For anyone to say it's your underlying condition it's insulting.

 

Kittenbeanbag,

I saw your other post to me on an old post. I am going to reply here. ID WD is a real and awful thing. That is something that is very common with X. I don't know if metabolizing of a med can change. I am 32, so definitely not menopause. It is my genes. I had genetic testing done and I am a rapid metabolizer of most meds, including all Benzos. I do know meds and even foods can affect how you metabolize a med. I am on a PPI that makes me actually metabolize slower. You shouldn't have any more issues with ID WD if you c/o V. I am sorry you are going through that. I hope you feel better soon!

 

XO Maya

[[mr...]]

Tolerance and tolerance wd are two different things. While tapering it is just withdrawal. It seems like people are mistaking tolerance for tolerance wd and calling tolerance wd relative withdrawal. It is uncommon for short term users, but very long term (especially high dose users) from my own experience and what I have seen usually experienced tolerance wd before tapering. I did experienced tolerance and then later awful tolerance wd. As for it being the underlying condition, that's what Drs who don't know understand Benzos say. In someone like me who was rxed since 2002, it hasn't helped my anxiety in over 10 years and I was never depressed until I was K for 6+ years on 6-8mgs (120-180mgs of V). Also studies now show Benzos are bad for PTSD. I also have done a lot of therapy over the years for managing anxiety. For anyone to say it's your underlying condition it's insulting.

 

Well said, Maya!

Anxiety is only a symptom and not a disorder or disease.

 

[[Ma...]]

Mrtmeo,

Thank you! PTSD is technically an anxiety disorder, but most of my anxiety now is chemical. I can tell the difference. Anxiety is a sxs of tol wd and wd. I was just trying to educate about tol wd or as I now learned it is also called relative wd. It seems many short term users don't understand it and how horrible it is. Also, usually, the person has no idea the sxs are being caused by the drug and don't understand what is going on.

 

Congrats on your mom being benzo free! She is lucky to have such a supportive son through all of this. I hope you are both well!

 

XO Maya 

[[bu...]]

Mrtmeo,

Thank you! PTSD is technically an anxiety disorder, but most of my anxiety now is chemical. I can tell the difference.

  And General Anxiety Disorder is a disorder.

[[Ma...]]

I don't have GAD. I am not saying people don't have anxiety disorders. My point was about tolerance wd after very long term use. Also people are prescribed Benzos for things other than anxiety and develop anxiety and depression while on Benzos or as everyone here knows while tapering.

[[bu...]]

I don't have GAD. I am not saying people don't have anxiety disorders. My point was about tolerance wd after very long term use. Also people are prescribed Benzos for things other than anxiety and develop anxiety and depression while on Benzos or as everyone here knows while tapering.

  But I did.  And I will guarantee you it was not caused by any external or environmental factors.  It was clearly an organic disease state

[[mr...]]

  And General Anxiety Disorder is a disorder.

That is what the medical community deams it, but it is just a symptom.

There are many so called, mental disorders which have no scientific tests to prove they exist, but psychology labels them anyway as disorders.

[[Ma...]]

I think it can be a disease. If you say you had GAD, I believe you. I also think that sometimes people are misdiagnosed as having it when it caused by Benzos or other factors. I was not debating about if mental illness is real. I have PTSD. My original post was about tolerance withdrawal and also how it can be upsetting when Drs or anyone say no it must be an underlying condition. I am much less anxious now then I was on 6mg-8mgs of K.

[[mr...]]

Years ago, I had panic and anxiety attacks.

Once I flushed out 1,200 stones from my liver and gallbladder, I never had another anxiety nor panic attack again and that was 7 years ago.

In my case, they were symptoms of non alcoholic fatty liver disease.

[[Le...]]

Dang, I lost my post. Let me try  again.

Kittenbeanbag, thanks for your input on IDWD and I agree its a terrible experience.

 

Moodle,  thank you for the warm welcome. We chatted  a bit when I first joined. Your sincere concern and kindness gave me great comfort. I pray you are doing well.

 

Maya, thank you for the thoughtful response. What you said makes sense. I was on 40mg valium for 4 years (in addition to other benzos). Trips to doctors, ERs, and even hospital stays became increasingly frequent as time went by. I never knew it was the benzos until I came here. "Also studies now show Benzos are bad for PTSD." That makes sense too. I was in therapy for many years. But all heck broke loose when I started trauma therapy while on valium. It was a disaster and made my sxs much worse.

 

mrtmeo, thank you for echoing Maya's sentiments about anxiety. I whole heartedly agree with you both.

 

Peace and healing to all,

Left

[[Le...]]

Seems I'm a bit late to the party. Sorry, but I wanted to post before I lost my response  again.

[[Mo...]]

Dang, I lost my post. Let me try  again.

Kittenbeanbag, thanks for your input on IDWD and I agree its a terrible experience.

 

Moodle,  thank you for the warm welcome. We chatted  a bit when I first joined. Your sincere concern and kindness gave me great comfort. I pray you are doing well.

 

Maya, thank you for the thoughtful response. What you said makes sense. I was on 40mg valium for 4 years (in addition to other benzos). Trips to doctors, ERs, and even hospital stays became increasingly frequent as time went by. I never knew it was the benzos until I came here. "Also studies now show Benzos are bad for PTSD." That makes sense too. I was in therapy for many years. But all heck broke loose when I started trauma therapy while on valium. It was a disaster and made my sxs much worse.

 

mrtmeo, thank you for echoing Maya's sentiments about anxiety. I whole heartedly agree with you both.

 

Peace and healing to all,

Left

 

Hey Left,

Yup, I remember.

 

Hope you're doing ok.

 

See you a round on the boards then.

[[bu...]]

  And General Anxiety Disorder is a disorder.

That is what the medical community deams it, but it is just a symptom.

There are many so called, mental disorders which have no scientific tests to prove they exist, but psychology labels them anyway as disorders.

 

No disrespect mrt, but you don't live in my body.

 

That wasn't my doc's diagnosis, that's my own diagnosis,

[[mr...]]

  And General Anxiety Disorder is a disorder.

That is what the medical community deams it, but it is just a symptom.

There are many so called, mental disorders which have no scientific tests to prove they exist, but psychology labels them anyway as disorders.

 

No disrespect mrt, but you don't live in my body.

 

That wasn't my doc's diagnosis, that's my own diagnosis,

Are you talking about anxiety from benzo's or what you had pre-benzo's?

[[Di...]]

DP  I think post 16583 was from Babi asking for help, but it got posted from Odin because Odin had logged in and didn't log out so when Babi posted the post looked like it came from Odin.  Anyway, if I'm right Babi still needs help.  Cross

 

 

 

Thanks. I'd already responded to bablatrice on another thread, which is why I was so confused.

[[Ma...]]

I did not mean to cause anyone to get upset. I think what I am saying is being misunderstood. I do believe in GAD. I that breaking the mental health stigma is something I feel strongly about. Mental illness from GAD, depression, panic disorder, bipolar etc. is real and it is important to recognize the struggle. I have noticed I have trouble articulating myself since tapering. I have suffered from PTSD and anxiety that is why I was put on Benzos at 18. I was talking about tolerance wd sxs earlier and how these anti-anxiety meds (Benzos) can later cause anxiety and depression. I also believe that you are the person who knows what is going on with yourself best. I wanted to validate for long term users who had tol wd becasue I know what it's like. I don't want to debate anything, especially mental illness. End of story.

 

Left,

I am glad my post made sense to you. It is good to hear from others who have been in similar situations. I had a lot of visits with Dr's and tests etc, too. That is very common for tol wd. I was relieved when I learned the truth. It's scary and so hard to be feeling not well psychologically and physically and not know why. Benzos are bad for PTSD. That is very much shown. They are bad long term in general also, of course. I am sorry your trauma work didn't go well. At least now you can make more sense of it hopefully. I plan to do EMDR trauma work after I am off benzos. I see an EMDR therapist sometimes, but we don't do EMDR. While in tol wd and especially while tapering it is not a good idea to do any trauma work. Also trauma work is hard. I have done a lot of DBT and some CBT to manage anxiety and PTSD triggers, but not doing trauma work. That has helped me a lot. I am so sorry for everything you went through. I read your signature and you have come a long way. You should be proud! We will be free and be ourselves again!

 

Mrt,

I hope you don't get anymore stones. I am glad no more panic attacks. I have kidney disease where I always have stones. Now it is managed, but there has been some extremely painful ER visits. Worse pain of my life. I hope you have a good night!

 

Moo,

You are always so nice and helpful to everyone 

 

I hope everyone has a peaceful night!

 

XO Maya

 

[[mr...]]

Maya,

I am sorry you have kidney stones.

They can be extremely painful and cause infections.

My mom had stones, so I had her do a kidney cleanse and now, they are all gone at the last CT scan.

 

[[bu...]]

  And General Anxiety Disorder is a disorder.

That is what the medical community deams it, but it is just a symptom.

There are many so called, mental disorders which have no scientific tests to prove they exist, but psychology labels them anyway as disorders.

 

No disrespect mrt, but you don't live in my body.

 

That wasn't my doc's diagnosis, that's my own diagnosis,

Are you talking about anxiety from benzo's or what you had pre-benzo's?

 

The severe, sudden-onset anxiety disorder I suffered was the condition that started my benzo therapy.

 

I really never experienced any significant side fxs or paradoxical reactions while taking benzo.

[[Le...]]

Late to the party again...

 

Moo, I'm hanging in there. Better days are on the horizon.

 

Maya, the endless ER visits..it got so bad they knew me by name   Ironically it was EMDR that exacerbated my sxs.  I couldn't function when I returned to work. I didn't understand why the therapy made things worse, neither did my therapist nor psychologist. We stopped the sessions because I wasn't stable enough to continue. Well, now I know why. Thanks for the encouragement. Yours has not been an easy ride either. Yes, one day we will all be free, and reborn to a better life!

 

Peace and healing to all.

Left

[[Ma...]]

Left,

You are not late. People just post when they are on. I know what it's like for people in a hospital know who you are, too. I had a favorite phlebotomist  I had to go for my kidneys a lot, as well. Even recently they tried to misdiagnosis me with lupus. Thankfully, further testing proved what I already knew. My therapist who does EMDR will not do it if you are on Benzos, usually. In rare cases he has it was a low dose and when they got off they had to do more sessions. Part of that is Benzos can cause emotional blunting and also issues with remembering and retaining info. Also in tol wd or while tapering it is too much for our bodies to handle, usually. Which I am sorry you learned the hard way. He teaches EMDR all over the world and he is very benzo wise. My pdoc is not. I am glad that could help give you some answers. I know how hard it is when you keep trying things and you don't understand why you aren't getting better. Freedom and better days are definitely coming! You have a great attitude and are a strong person. I can tell you will keep doing great! Wishing you easier days soon and also a good night!

 

builder,

I am glad you never went through that. When you start tapering when you are already in severe tolerance wd, I think it is impossible to have such an easy taper. Also, I am sorry your GAD was bad.

 

Mrt,

Thank you! I used to get kidney infections sometimes, but now it's been years. This has been going on for over 10 years and it's completely under control. My stones are usually now small enough to pass on their own or they remove them. I haven't had a CT since I started tapering again. I have one coming up, but I am sure it will be fine. I am sorry your mom has them. Passing 6 huge stones was by far the worst pain ever. That's how I found out I had kidney disease. I have always been too scared to do a kidney cleanse. Maybe I will give it a try later on. I will also always have stones becasue my kidneys don't break calcium down properly. I hope your mom doesnt get anymore stones!

 

Wishing everyone well wishes!

 

XO Maya

[[Di...]]

Tolerance and tolerance wd are two different things. While tapering it is just withdrawal. It seems like people are mistaking tolerance for tolerance wd and calling tolerance wd relative withdrawal.

 

Actually, it's only "tolerance" and "relative withdrawal". Most people taper while in tolerance, but that really isn't what people are calling a "tolerance withdrawal". The symptoms they experience are either plain old withdrawal symptoms (some of which can be very severe of course), or it's a re-emergence of their original symptoms due to the dose of the benzo no longer covering their symptoms.

 

What people think is a "tolerance withdrawal" is really a "relative withdrawal". It gets confused because people put "tolerance" and "withdrawal" together and then call it "tolerance withdrawal". Most people don't suffer from relative withdrawal, but most people will be tapering while in tolerance. You just have to read the link to the information that Colin posted.

[[Ma...]]

I call it tolerance wd and that is what I have seen everyone else call it. I don't care if you call it relative wd. It exists, it's real, and I went through it for many years. I was speaking about people who start in tolerance wd not tolerance. You are a short term and low dose user. Your experience in nothing like mine or the people I am talking about. My condition for which I was rxed klonopin is  anxiety (PTSD) from a very traumatic childhood. It is not that. It is insulting to say it's your underlying condition.  I was trying to help others who were in tol wd on this thread. You can choose to believe people are in tol wd or not. I believe people know their own bodies best. I think you have no idea what very long term (especially high dose) users go through. I did read what Colin wrote and I know what Ashton wrote. It is in the FAQ on this forum as well. Colin does call it relative wd and he does say people go through it.

[[Di...]]

It's not what "I call it". The term "tolerance withdrawal" gets used too much, even for people it's not relevant to. They are simply tolerant to their dose which is nothing unusual, but because everyone tells them "oh you're in tolerance withdrawal" they get scared of tapering before they even start. If you are really suffering from those symptoms it's "relative withdrawal".

 

I'm sorry if you feel a bit defensive about it. I'm not meaning to be insulting, and I have no idea about your individual circumstances, but my concern is for all the newbies who come here and get bombarded by a lot of words that probably aren't relevant to them, then they get terrified.

 

btw - No one should judge anyone else's experiences with benzos or tapering - including you about me. You have no idea what my experiences are, both in life or with benzos.

[[mr...]]

I call it tolerance wd and that is what I have seen everyone else call it. I don't care if you call it relative wd. It exists, it's real, and I went through it for many years. I was speaking about people who start in tolerance wd not tolerance. You are a short term and low dose user. Your experience in nothing like mine or the people I am talking about. My condition for which I was rxed klonopin is  anxiety (PTSD) from a very traumatic childhood. It is not that. It is insulting to say it's your underlying condition.  I was trying to help others who were in tol wd on this thread. You can choose to believe people are in tol wd or not. I believe people know their own bodies best. I think you have no idea what very long term (especially high dose) users go through. I did read what Colin wrote and I know what Ashton wrote. It is in the FAQ on this forum as well. Colin does call it relative wd and he does say people go through it.

I agree, if once in tolerance before tapering, the tapering process can be much more difficult to stabilize if possible.

Having severe symptoms going into a taper can be much more difficult the whole way down, but some have managed to stabilize eventually.

When tapering, we are all in tolerance because the drug is less than adequate and it continues the whole way down the taper.

Those who were not in tolerance when they started the taper may find tapering easier than others, but this is not always the case.

There is no easy way out of these drugs and time is the only thing proven to heal.

We can only get thru this via the efforts and accomplishments that have worked for the thousands that came before us.

[[Ma...]]

I never said anyone was in tol wd. I validated others who said they were in tolerance wd after over 10 years of use. I was not scaring or bombarding anyone. I said most are in tolerance NOT tol wd. I never said most are in tolerance wd or relative wd. I don't care what you call it or anyone calls it. I have seen you fight with others on here. I don't want or like to fight. You can think whatever you want. I am done with this convo. I don't come to BB for this. Also saying "if you really are suffering from those symptoms it's relative wd" is insulting. I didn't judge you. I am glad you were a short and low dose user of Benzos. I am over this conversation. I am ending it.