Again

[[Sh...]]

Gotta say team, I’m loving this post. Thanku for all coming here to help me thru, and now we’re helping each other thru. It’s pretty special ❤️
for a bunch of damaged people we do this really well. Love u all x 

I hope ur all having a good day today! I started a new job 2 weeks ago too so I think that hasn’t helped. It’s funny how u think ur ready for things but then actually ur not really. Changing jobs in a wave is not a great idea. Also my tan is fading because I don’t have as much time to sunbake which is really messing me up 😆

[[Ju...]]

Yeah I approve of this international post, from Seattle, Washington.

It's insane to think how many pills have been prescribed to so many people around the world. And to think it's all "Behavioral modification" nonsense. Do you really think that we have a defective human race and that Mother Nature made animals incorrectly from the biological start and beginning? I highly doubt that.

But according to the medical professionals around the world, supposedly they know more than biology and the they know more than way we were born and intended to be. All because of their god-like studies I guess. But when does science override a whole entire human race that's been around since the start, meanwhile these pills are almost brand new when compared to the human race?

Maybe it's just me, but I've been really interested in Native ways lately since getting close to being healed and being almost 5 years out now. You know how benzo withdrawal teaches us almost everything else? Well it's also teaching me that the natives and the tribes had it right, and this new modern-day science is nothing more than hierarchies selling snake oil.

We're all going to be alright, as long as we never go back to pseudo science experiments.

[[...]]

I sure wish I had something positive to add to this thread. Unfortunately, I am a real bad place at the moment. Sleep has tanked for me and that has made all of the other symptoms worse. I love positivity that this thread has though.

[[Sh...]]

U are right Justin. We were meant to live in nature, no lights, just maybe a fire. It’s no wonder we’re all so messed up. We are taught from a young age getting “stuff” is the human race. 
 

X-ray I got 2 hours broken last night. After about the same the night before. I went and did heavy weights yesterday too made no difference. Here we go again. I nearly cried when I looked at my fit bit this morning. 1 hour deep 1 hour rem. And it feels like it. Off to work. Wish me luck 

Edited March 14 by [Sh...]

[[Sh...]]

[[...]]

@[Sh...] I’m guessing all of that light sleep was just you laying awake in bed? I quit wearing my Fitbit because it was depressing me to much. It seems we are about the same. I feel like if I could just sleep I would be recovered from this. Every symptom I have left can be directly tied to insomnia except the hypnic jerks. Good news is the jerks have been getting milder lately.

[[Co...]]

[[Ju...]]

I'm so far out that I'm finding hacks to sleep. It's almost learned at this point, you have to force it.

Currently my situation is I have to take a 10 or 15 minute nap multiple times throughout the day, because of how exhausted my mind and body is. I've learned not to try to fight it, but to allow your body to rejuvenate when it needs it. This will also throw off your sleep cycle, but that's fine.

I will sleep about 4 hours from 4:30 a.m. until about 8:30 a.m. in the morning. I will wake up extremely hungry, and I have to eat immediately to prevent extreme nerve pain. If I don't eat and get up right away, my legs will start throbbing and my ears will start ringing and I will be on fire, my nerves will be very painful. But if I get up and eat while I'm exhausted, I will go back to sleep within a couple hours. The food makes me temporarily energized, but then I get the remaining bit of sleep within a couple hours of going back to sleep.

And then around 10:30 a.m. or 11:00 a.m., I will sleep my remaining 4 hours or at least close to it, and wake up around 4:00 p.m., this is what my body is requiring. I have no choice in the matter, I've tried to avoid it and fight it, only to make the next days miserable and even worse. Anytime I fight it, I end up more exhausted, I throw myself back, and I delay progress.

This completely screws up my life, and messes up appointments and groceries and anything else such as repairs or maintenance on things at home. But I have to remind myself, this is a serious injury. It's a legitimate medical situation, just like going to the hospital. You can try to fight it, but it's not going to work.

I've been through this nocturnal cycle about a dozen times over the last 5 years. I've learned it's best just to listen to your body, disregard what's going on in the world. You might say well how do I do that because I don't have the luxury to do it? That's where you have to remind yourself, it's survival. Call your boss, tell your spouse to leave you alone, cook when you wake up, shop at night, do whatever you have to do. That's my advice.

[[Sh...]]

[[Sh...]]

7 hours ago, [[C...] said:

Light sleep is sleep. It is a normal part of sleep across the night.

You are right Colin. Even tho I only got deep and rem for about 2 hours, the light sleep had periods of “dreams” in there. But mostly it was just laying still.

I was very productive at work today regardless, so whatever it was it was enuf. I do have a cracker of a tension headache now tho. 

[[Sh...]]

4 hours ago, [[J...] said:

I'm so far out that I'm finding hacks to sleep. It's almost learned at this point, you have to force it.

Currently my situation is I have to take a 10 or 15 minute nap multiple times throughout the day, because of how exhausted my mind and body is. I've learned not to try to fight it, but to allow your body to rejuvenate when it needs it. This will also throw off your sleep cycle, but that's fine.

I will sleep about 4 hours from 4:30 a.m. until about 8:30 a.m. in the morning. I will wake up extremely hungry, and I have to eat immediately to prevent extreme nerve pain. If I don't eat and get up right away, my legs will start throbbing and my ears will start ringing and I will be on fire, my nerves will be very painful. But if I get up and eat while I'm exhausted, I will go back to sleep within a couple hours. The food makes me temporarily energized, but then I get the remaining bit of sleep within a couple hours of going back to sleep.

And then around 10:30 a.m. or 11:00 a.m., I will sleep my remaining 4 hours or at least close to it, and wake up around 4:00 p.m., this is what my body is requiring. I have no choice in the matter, I've tried to avoid it and fight it, only to make the next days miserable and even worse. Anytime I fight it, I end up more exhausted, I throw myself back, and I delay progress.

This completely screws up my life, and messes up appointments and groceries and anything else such as repairs or maintenance on things at home. But I have to remind myself, this is a serious injury. It's a legitimate medical situation, just like going to the hospital. You can try to fight it, but it's not going to work.

I've been through this nocturnal cycle about a dozen times over the last 5 years. I've learned it's best just to listen to your body, disregard what's going on in the world. You might say well how do I do that because I don't have the luxury to do it? That's where you have to remind yourself, it's survival. Call your boss, tell your spouse to leave you alone, cook when you wake up, shop at night, do whatever you have to do. That's my advice.

I understand what ur saying but my husband is disabled and can’t work so I have no choice but to put my big girl pants on and work. But I understand survival. I did it for as long as possible but then the money ran out and I had no choice. And to be honest with you I mentally could not stand one more minute of this shit ruling my life. Nothing and no one tells me what to do and that includes the benzo beast. 
this is a hellish wave but it will end. 

[[Ju...]]

1 hour ago, [[S...] said:

I understand what ur saying but my husband is disabled and can’t work so I have no choice but to put my big girl pants on and work. But I understand survival. I did it for as long as possible but then the money ran out and I had no choice. And to be honest with you I mentally could not stand one more minute of this shit ruling my life. Nothing and no one tells me what to do and that includes the benzo beast. 
this is a hellish wave but it will end. 

I'm right there with you, I'm sick of it controlling me too. Sounds like you already have your survival tactics going on, that's good. I'm the exact same way, literally nobody tells me what to do, and I've got a record of it too. I've had my share of trouble to say the least, but most of it was well worth it.

[[...]]

@[Sh...] That’s why I quit wearing my Fitbit. It was logging light sleep even though I was laying there wide awake. That’s awesome that you were productive even though you didn’t sleep well. I also get the tension headaches but I call them insomnia headaches. It is the only thing I will take a medication for. When they get real bad I’ll take an ibuprofen. I’m happy the jerks went away for the most part but still no naps. No matter how tired I am I just cannot fall asleep during the day. David Powers (the benzo coach) says that I am doing it to myself, that all of us are doing it to ourselves, that the insomnia is just us ruminating and worrying about sleep. Maybe he is right, but I don’t really believe it anymore. Hope everybody has the best day possible.

[[Ju...]]

[[Th...]]

David Powers (A benzo coach) who says we are causing the insomnia should not be a Benzo coach IMO? Wow, maybe after we are healed, then worry, anxiety and stress can affect sleep, but Benzo-induced insomnia is caused from down regulated and damaged GABA receptors.  It's literal physical damage.  No amount of sleep hygiene or positive thoughts, etc., will have any affect on sleep until the GABA receptors heal and/or regrow.  How is that any different than saying your broken leg would heal in one day if you'd stop worrying about it???  

GABA is not functioning properly because of the Benzos and therefore Glutamate receptors overfire and caused a condition known as excitotoxicity.  Recall that Glutamate is what keeps us active and alert, even fight or flight.  So when Glutamate receptors overfire, we are wired all the time and hence the insomnia to varying degrees.  GABA is what makes us calm and relaxed so we can sleep, but that is temporarily taken off line by the Benzos.  Until the GABA and Glutamate balance are restored over time, there is little that can be done for insomnia except another Rx drug (not a Benzo) (or possibly and OTC drug)! 

[[Th...]]

17 hours ago, [[S...] said:

U are right Justin. We were meant to live in nature, no lights, just maybe a fire. It’s no wonder we’re all so messed up. We are taught from a young age getting “stuff” is the human race. 
 

X-ray I got 2 hours broken last night. After about the same the night before. I went and did heavy weights yesterday too made no difference. Here we go again. I nearly cried when I looked at my fit bit this morning. 1 hour deep 1 hour rem. And it feels like it. Off to work. Wish me luck 

Shayna,

You need to count the "light or core sleep" too.  It's not all going to be REM and Deep.  I average that much per night now and the rest is light or "core" sleep as some call it and I feel completely refreshed.  I have an Apple watch that I wear to bed and a sleep App called "Autosleep."  It takes the data from the Apple watch but is usually spot on regarding sleep; maybe not so much for exact minutes or hours, but how I feel the next day.

In addition to the stages of sleep, it also gives a "Readiness Score" that uses waking beats per minute and HRV (heart rate variability).  Further, it provides a "Sleep Fuel Score."  Sleep is fuel for your brain, body, immune system and well being.  But as you are painfully aware, not all sleep refuels at the same quality.  When I have a bad night, my Readiness and Sleep Fuel scores are low.  When I have a good night, they are a lot higher.  Today they are both in the green or good, but my total  REM sleep was only 1 hour 15 minutes and my Deep sleep was only 50 minutes. My light or Core sleep was 5 hours 15 minutes.  I didn't even hit the recommended averages per night for an adult that are listed below, but I feel completely rested and "normal" today.

This is what I learned over the years:

Deep Sleep:  is where your heart rate slows and your muscles relax to the point where you barely move. Studies have shown that an adult requires anywhere from 1 to 1.8 hours of deep sleep per night (average) or 10 - 25% of your total sleep.

REM Sleep:  is where you are most likely dreaming (Rapid Eye Movement).  Most people average 1.5 to 2 hours per night or 20 to 25% of their total sleep.

Core or "light" sleep: is any sleep that is not Deep or REM sleep.  Core sleep is essential sleep and mainly slow wave sleep that is usually 50% or more of overall nightly sleep.

Conclusion:  I don't rely too much on just REM and DEEP sleep totals, but rather on overall sleep and how I feel that almost always matches up with my sleep app Readiness and Sleep Fuel scores.

Peace!

Edited March 15 by [Th...]

[[Co...]]

42 minutes ago, [[T...] said:

David Powers (A benzo coach) who says we are causing the insomnia should not be a Benzo coach IMO? Wow, maybe after we are healed, then worry, anxiety and stress can affect sleep, but Benzo-induced insomnia is caused from down regulated and damaged GABA receptors.  It's literal physical damage.  No amount of sleep hygiene or positive thoughts, etc., will have any affect on sleep until the GABA receptors heal and/or regrow.  How is that any different than saying your broken leg would heal in one day if you'd stop worrying about it???  

GABA is not functioning properly because of the Benzos and therefore Glutamate receptors overfire and caused a condition known as excitotoxicity.  Recall that Glutamate is what keeps us active and alert, even fight or flight.  So when Glutamate receptors overfire, we are wired all the time and hence the insomnia to varying degrees.  GABA is what makes us calm and relaxed so we can sleep, but that is temporarily taken off line by the Benzos.  Until the GABA and Glutamate balance are restored over time, there is little that can be done for insomnia except another Rx drug (not a Benzo) (or possibly and OTC drug)! 

I am sick to death of reading about 'benzo coaches' - nearly all of whom are unqualified in counselling or psychotherapy. Of course, without the qualification, they also will not be a member of professional body with a complaints procedure, or have professional indemnity insurance.

I see that David Powers is a 'PhD candidate' - well, woopty-bloody-do. From his website:

Quote

Coach Powers is a Clinical Psychology PhD candidate that uses cognitive-behavioral and dialectical-behavioral techniques with mindfulness training to help individuals recover from benzodiazepine dependence.

Quote

Coach Powers is not a medical doctor, nor is he currently a licensed psychologist. He does not diagnose or treat mental illness.

And yet:

Quote

 

COACHING PRICES

  $100 for 60 minutes

Existing clients & clients booked before May 30th remain fixed at $80 hourly until August 1st, 2023 

 

EMERGENCY CALLS

  $140 for sixty minutes

NO SHOWS ON APPOINTMENT 

WILL BE CHARGED $50

Invoices are emailed after sessions via PayPal

 

Disgraceful. I've had enough of this kind of behaviour and it will be called out more regularly from now on.

[[Ka...]]

30 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

I am sick to death of reading about 'benzo coaches' - nearly all of whom are unqualified in counselling or psychotherapy. Of course, without the qualification, they also will not be a member of professional body with a complaints procedure, or have professional indemnity insurance.

I see that David Powers is a 'PhD candidate' - well, woopty-bloody-do. From his website:

And yet:

Disgraceful. I've had enough of this kind of behaviour and it will be called out more regularly from now on.

It seems if people don’t undertake due diligence they may unwittingly end up a lot worse with this kind of dangerous quackery. 

[[or...]]

Due Diligence, amen to that!  If I hadn't written to my doctor's office on My Chart, their app. for the clinic here, I would not, maybe, have known I have to sign their yearly paper for getting a prescription of a controlled substance like clonazepam.

Thank God I did, and nothing scares me worse than to be forced to Cold Turkey one of these hellish drugs, I'm just a year into a very slow taper   My heart so goes out to those that have been forced to CT

A rock and hard spot, we have to stay with these quacks in order to not end up crippled by a CT!!

[[WU...]]

1 hour ago, [[C...] said:

I am sick to death of reading about 'benzo coaches' - nearly all of whom are unqualified in counselling or psychotherapy. Of course, without the qualification, they also will not be a member of professional body with a complaints procedure

Trouble is the GP's prescribing are not qualified counsellors and psychotherapists either ! And so they are far more dangerous as they tell us we have anxiety and need benzos or AD's.  

Not defending that guy Powers with his erroneous remarks about insomnia, but at least he has experience of benzo withdrawal unlike the GP's.  I wouldn't  pay him for his advice though as it seems time and things like self-insight and self-love and masses of patience is what we need.

And this site is a wealth of information Colin, thank you, plenty here for everyone's needs in whatever stage they are in.

[[Ju...]]

I'm laughing at everybody's comments this morning. Colin has a very good point, but you know what? In my eyes they're all quacks at this point. Licensed or unlicensed, none of them should be practicing anything at all in my opinion.

I'm almost positive that anything from the medical community or from the fake medical community, either or, is fake. I know that sounds anti-doctor, but it's not. I'm following the rules of the site, but I'm almost positive that anything other than tribal ways is snake oil. Seriously, like I think we would have to go back hundreds of years to make things right again. We would have to take things back to the primitive in order to see any real results to move forward.

It's like we're taking huge leaps backwards right now. But not in a good way, but more like destroying our own Human Race by the day. Look at the politics and medical field and the wars and everything else going on at the moment. I'm sure this can't be good. But I won't get into all the political stuff on the site.

 

[[Co...]]

33 minutes ago, [[W...] said:

Trouble is the GP's prescribing are not qualified counsellors and psychotherapists either ! And so they are far more dangerous as they tell us we have anxiety and need benzos or AD's.  

Not defending that guy Powers with his erroneous remarks about insomnia, but at least he has experience of benzo withdrawal unlike the GP's.  I wouldn't  pay him for his advice though as it seems time and things like self-insight and self-love and masses of patience is what we need.

And this site is a wealth of information Colin, thank you, plenty here for everyone's needs in whatever stage they are in.

I strongly disagree. If a member is in need of a counsellor or psychotherapist, the counsellor or therapist does not need to have had personal experience of benzodiazepine use and withdrawal. In fact, such lived experience be a hinderance (baggage). (Qualified) counsellors deal with a multitude of problems with their clients. A counsellor who has lived experience in all these matters would be an extraordinary person, and probably very damaged anyway. Counselling is mostly about helping clients to help themselves. It is not about imparting advice.

If a member is instead looking for peer support or help devising a taper plan, they can get this for free at BenzoBuddies. The very last thing a member needs is a 'coach' who is unqualified, uninsured, etc., and may be carrying baggage and/or a personal agenda from unresolved issues. It really is not good enough that these unqualified individuals are providing counselling/psychotherapy in all but name.

I have written about this before, but it has been some time, so most of you are probably unaware. But I did a years-worth of counselling training many years ago, with supervised practice. Enough to understand its power, and its dangers if carried out incorrectly. With my limited training, I would not attempt to provide counselling. I suggest that someone who is unqualified and chooses to provide counselling/psychotherapy services (even if they instead call themselves a 'coach') is temperamentally unsuited to be a counsellor anyway. It is the height of arrogance, akin to someone with no qualifications hanging up a shingle as a 'doctor'.

[[Co...]]

20 minutes ago, [[J...] said:

I'm laughing at everybody's comments this morning. Colin has a very good point, but you know what? In my eyes they're all quacks at this point. Licensed or unlicensed, none of them should be practicing anything at all in my opinion.

I think there is a lot misunderstanding about counselling and psychotherapy. These therapeutic services are, for the most part, about helping the patient find their own solution. It is about providing an outlet. These are very different to doctor-patient relationships. And these days, different too to most psychiatrist-patient relationships (unless you are one of the lucky few to participate in talk-therapy with your psychiatrist). For the most part, psychiatrist-patient relationships now more resemble doctor-patient relationships.

[[WU...]]

2 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

A counsellor who has lived experience in all these matters would be an extraordinary person, and probably very damaged anyway.

We have at least one rare case of Dr Mark Horowitz at the Maudsley in London, qualified and "damaged" himself by psychiatric drugs. Do we listen to him because he is qualified or because he has very useful advice and strategies based on his own lived experience. I think it is a combination of both.  

 

 

[[Co...]]

@[WU...]

Context:

17 hours ago, [[C...] said:

(Qualified) counsellors deal with a multitude of problems with their clients. A counsellor who has lived experience in all these matters would be an extraordinary person, and probably very damaged anyway.

"A multitude of problems"!

Counsellors with lived experience in some matter can have valuable insights. But only so long as these matters are resolved for them.