Can we still live a long healthy life after 4-5 years of horrific insomnia

[[...]]

I've been off benzos for just under 2.5 years now and still feel as though little progress has been made, I have never felt tired when I go to bed at night, I had a good 2 months stretch where I probably averaged 5 hours a night but it's typically 2 weeks of pure hell, 0 hours per night most nights for half the month then 2 weeks of maybe averaging 4 hours. All this horrible sleep for like 4-5 years is definitely torture. 

I'm 37 and have a perfect diet, take walks when I can, but worry about the years this has taken off my lifespan. 

Can we still live a long healthy life even if my sleep is like this for so long?

[[Tw...]]

[[...]]

as long as you are in bed and getting rest no need to fear death, I was speaking more long term about lifespan, just relax

Edited May 7 by [...]

[[ma...]]

I'm wondering the same thing, I've been 26 months in, and I've had a pretty good two months, but I started the week by sleeping a couple of hours a day.I was just beginning to think that the worst was over, I'm back again with the shitty nights.It's awful.Since I started sleeping badly until I found out that they were withdrawal, I have had terrible insomnia for more than three years.I have not had windows of normality, only these two months, although I managed to sleep about 5 hours a night intermittently.

[[ja...]]

Some of what I'm reading here mirrors my own experience.  I'm so glad I'm not alone in this.   I'm almost 30 months post taper.... insomnia has been, and still is my biggest challenge.   A broken 5 hour sleep is like hallelujah at this point.  I can function quite well on 4.  But I don't feel good.  Progress is maddeningly slow.... but it's there for sure.

I too have been afraid of what this has done to my health, life span, etc.  But I know one thing..... if I can calm myself and cultivate peace, and never give up on my healing process, my body will do its best.   I mean, what choice do we have?   Reinstating for me is not an option.

Big big hugs to all my fellow benzobuddies.   

 

[[Th...]]

There is no conclusive evidence or studies that suggest that longer bouts of insomnia shorten your life.  In fact, during WWII, many in various parts of Europe went years and years on very little sleep and lived well into their 80s and 90s.  Also, people that are "natural" insomniacs seem to live just as long as those that are not?  I wouldn't worry too much about how many months or years lack of sleep takes from your overall lifespan as there isn't much evidence to suggest that it actually does do that.  

And there is no risk of death from lack of sleep that I am aware of.  Your body will get all the rest it needs, when it needs it before anything serious can happen to you.  Further, we often under estimate how much sleep we actually get.  I know there were many times I thought I didn't sleep at all but my wife said she heard me lightly snoring at various times throughout the night when she woke up.

Sorry you are still suffering at 30 months off, but for unknown reasons, some people take longer to heal.  Did you have insomnia prior to Benzos?

If you haven't already, maybe take the time to read this rather long post about Benzo-induced insomnia.  Peace

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/270442-2400-days-off-my-insomniabenzo-advice/page/4/#comment-3510832

 

Edited May 8 by [Th...]

[[or...]]

I think it's about being able to adapt to the lack of sleep for me.  I never thought I could do a days work, or much of anything on less than 8 hours.  Well I'm doing it now during this taper, I'm learning to do a lot of things I never thought I could do.  I know it was way rough at first, and thought about all kinds of ways I might "fix it" but around here is where I found the answer, and that is to "go through it" and avoid sleepy-time remedies that could disrupt my recovery.

I don't know what your daily routines are, or if you are a "routine" kind of person, but sticking to some really healthy things (healthy imo that is) like regular exercise, simple stuff like walking, or just doing things around the house.  I also eat what I see as good nutrition, and few, if ever, snacks in between.  I fast naturally, nothing by the book I doubt, and my longest is only around 18 hours, so no big deal.

I can't put my finger on a perfect way that would help everyone, but I am now, on a regular basis, getting 6-7 hours of sleep most of the time, way better and only half-way through taper oregonload~Denise

[[ma...]]

5 hours ago, [[o...] said:

Creo que se trata de poder adaptarme a la falta de sueño para mí. Nunca pensé que podría trabajar un día, ni mucho menos, en menos de 8 horas. Bueno, lo estoy haciendo ahora durante esta reducción, estoy aprendiendo a hacer muchas cosas que nunca pensé que podría hacer. Sé que al principio fue muy difícil y pensé en todo tipo de formas en que podría "solucionarlo", pero aquí es donde encontré la respuesta, y es "repasarlo" y evitar remedios a la hora de dormir que podrían alterar el sueño. mi recuperación.

No sé cuáles son tus rutinas diarias, o si eres un tipo de persona "rutinaria", pero apegarte a algunas cosas realmente saludables (en mi opinión, saludable) como ejercicio regular, cosas simples como caminar o simplemente hacer cosas alrededor. la casa. También como lo que considero una buena nutrición y pocos refrigerios, o nunca, en el medio. Ayuno de forma natural, no dudo de nada según las reglas, y mi máximo es de solo unas 18 horas, así que no es gran cosa.

No puedo identificar una manera perfecta que ayudaría a todos, pero ahora, de manera regular, duermo entre 6 y 7 horas la mayor parte del tiempo, mucho mejor y solo a la mitad de la reducción gradual de la carga ~ Denise

Hello, and doesn't fasting cause you more insomnia? He is another stressor.It's a long story but fasting got me here. Then I didn't do it right, I shouldn't have taken it so long and I screwed up.Well, someday when I can write my success story I will tell all the details.

[[Ma...]]

I’ve woken up, religiously, every 90 minutes for 11 months, probably longer but my memory fails anything further. And exactly at the same time. Every night. And I am up by 5:30 a.m. 🥹

I’ve now stopped checking the time. I used to have to get up and have blueberries or crackers-every 90 minutes -but I found IQ Bars which a non GMO, non sugar, non-everything-bad, organic protein bars that I have late evening and they have done a terrific job on my gut (Amazon). I recommend.

I try to tell self, people with babies don’t get sleep and are productive! There are millions of insomniacs and get up and start each day! Humpf 

I’m trying to habit myself out of it-or through it-by forcing myself to sit up (am in bed by 4), keep my eyes open though sheer willpower until 10 p.m., not succumbing to early sleep or napping.

I also believe to have energy after essentially no sleep, you have to actually make it so most days I can get those 10,000 steps in. Some days, nope. But when I can accomplish that I feel more alert, calm at night (endorphins!).

And, no I do not believe lack of sleep causes premature death. I simply don’t. Our bodies make up for it, somehow, and insomnia isn’t a novelty.

Oh, for the night of blissful 8 hours!!!

[[or...]]

3 hours ago, [[m...] said:

Hello, and doesn't fasting cause you more insomnia? He is another stressor.It's a long story but fasting got me here. Then I didn't do it right, I shouldn't have taken it so long and I screwed up.Well, someday when I can write my success story I will tell all the details.

Maybe just to clarify my only fasting is not eating between meals and when I sleep at night I stop eating before 6:00 or 5:00 and then I don't eat again until breakfast which comes at oh I don't know depending when I get up so I don't do this big old fast thing that some people do for like days or hours and hours and hours of fasting no I don't I eat regular meals three a day in fact so yeah just to clarify what I mean by fasting I do like not eating between meals and I don't have to because I'm on a ketogenic low carb nutrition so I don't get hungry in between meals if I'm nervous or upset I might have to have something a snack of some sort but you know that doesn't happen to me often I don't believe in going hungry or depriving myself of food so I really don't know why I even brought up fasting but again it's just not eating between meals I'm usually too busy doing something one thing or another my username came out totally wrong I see I'm Oregon lady not Oregon load 😁

[[ma...]]

4 hours ago, [[o...] said:

Tal vez solo para aclarar mi único ayuno es no comer entre comidas y cuando duermo por la noche dejo de comer antes de las 6:00 o 5:00 y luego no vuelvo a comer hasta el desayuno que llega a las ah no sé dependiendo de cuando Me levanto para no hacer este gran ayuno que algunas personas hacen durante días u horas y horas y horas de ayuno. No, no hago comidas regulares, tres al día, de hecho, así que sí, solo para aclarar lo que hago. Quiero decir con ayuno, me gusta no comer entre comidas y no es necesario porque sigo una nutrición cetogénica baja en carbohidratos, por lo que no tengo hambre entre comidas. Si estoy nervioso o molesto, es posible que tenga que comer algo. un refrigerio de algún tipo, pero ya sabes, eso no me pasa a menudo. No creo en pasar hambre o privarme de comida, así que realmente no sé por qué mencioné el ayuno, pero nuevamente, simplemente se trata de no comer entre comidas. Por lo general, estoy demasiado ocupado haciendo algo, una cosa u otra. Mi nombre de usuario salió totalmente incorrecto. Veo que soy una dama de Oregon, no una carga de Oregon .

Aaaa okay, thanks for answering, yes I don't eat between meals either and I have three meals a day, I have dinner early.And even though when I sleep as little as this week, I get hungry at night But I don't get up to eat, because it would ruin my circan circuit. I've gotten a pregnant belly that I've never had before.I know that the cause of this is what is happening to me.That's why I also take great care of my diet and do a lot of strength training.Let's continue like this, and may God want this torture to pass quickly.

[[or...]]

Hi Marisa, I'm so glad to hear you are one to pay attention to your nutrition.  I truly believe I wouldn't be doing as well as I am without being vigilant of that. 

I've heard others talk about the benzo belly but I also believe it will pass, and I pray too for you to be healed and have quality of life.  That's the same prayer I pray for me oregonlady~Denise

[[ma...]]

22 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

Hola Marisa, me alegra mucho saber que eres de las que prestan atención a tu nutrición. Realmente creo que no me iría tan bien si no estuviera atento a eso. 

He escuchado a otros hablar sobre la barriga de benzo pero también creo que pasará, y oro también para que usted sea sanado y tenga calidad de vida. Esa es la misma oración que hago por mí, Oregonlady ~ Denise

Thank you very much, Lady Oregon, I also wish everyone a speedy recovery.This is incredibly horrible. A huge hug and keep taking care of yourself.

[[or...]]

3 minutes ago, [[m...] said:

Thank you very much, Lady Oregon, I also wish everyone a speedy recovery.This is incredibly horrible. A huge hug and keep taking care of yourself.

you're welcome Marisa, I know one thing for sure, it is good to spend time with others that have experienced the benzo themselves, and recovered especially.  We can have hope hearing their stories ♥️

[[ma...]]

Just now, [[o...] said:

De nada Marisa, una cosa estoy segura: es bueno pasar tiempo con otras personas que han experimentado el benzo y se han recuperado especialmente. Podemos tener esperanza escuchando sus historias ♥️

Yes, reading those stories is really what I do the most, they motivate me and give me a lot of hope.I dream of being able to write it myself one day.

[[re...]]

Twyla:

STOP posting things like lack of sleep can cause death. 

That is gonna SCARE people on here and they don't need that crap. And they are in enough pain and sorrow already I am sorry to be aggressive with this. 

You are a knew member with a low post count (so my troll spidey sense goes off I gotta be honest) and I just want you to be mindful of other people on here suffering is all. 

Theway is PROOF that no one dies of lack of sleep. 

You know WHAT can cause death?

Being on a cocktail of drugs for a long time and they poop out so you keep upping them (below are some examples):

Michael Jackson had to go to Propofol for god's sakes and it killed him

Elvis had a TON of drugs in his system. Insane amounts of big pharma sleep cocktails every night. 

Heath Ledger had a ton of drugs cause of sleep problems and it took him out. 

The above ALL used crazy amounts of benzos and then other drugs and THAT killed them. So stop it with the lack of sleep can kill crap.

 

I can give you 3 individuals right now that were CHRONIC insomniacs and not one of them died young and actually all have made it to their 80's where plenty of hard core good sleepers died young. Not only this they are HIGHLY productive with only 5 hours and under of sleep. 

Trump

Winston Churchill

Margaret Thatcher

In closing I don't mean to be cold and demanding. But please be aware of others and give them hope and not fear.  Fear is the LAST thing they need. There is enough of that madness all over the internet. 

Matthew Walker (and he has a HUGE sub base) is perpetuating alot of this crap and it pisses me off. 

 

[[re...]]

WPWP:

You say your diet is 'perfect'

What EXACTLY are you eating?

Do you drink coffee? 

Have you had blood work seen a doc recently?

 

You say you walk which is HUGE, but maybe you should RUN!!!!!!! 

This may help a bit at this far off in your recovery. I wouldn't recommend people exercise like crazy in acute, but you HAVE been off awhile now so maybe up your exercise game. 

What was your benzo and dose and how long were you on it? Taper or no taper? How long and what dose were you on?

These are relevant questions for people in their tapers and hoping to heal. 

You are being very vague and just come on here and say all this stuff without getting a bit more in depth and ask for support which is awesome and I welcome you for sure. I am glad you are here, this is an amazing resource of info and love, but it helps to have a bit of your journey so other people can gauge things. It is so hard because we all get so caught up in our own symptoms and problems that we forget about the other people on here that need help besides ourselves and it's important to at least TRY and see the bigger picture. God when I am in a wave there is NO ONE but me and my symptoms and  I hate it when I get caught up.  

There is no rhyme or reason why the brain does what it does after psych med use. But people being more proactive seem to have a bit of a better time in this hell IMO. The ones that constantly doctor shop seem to always do worse. This is just an observation and not a message to not get a medical check up which I think everyone should if they have the insurance/financial and are able to do so. 

[[re...]]

I see low post counts with fear posts and/or very vague descriptions and my brain screams TROLLS TROLLS TROLLS!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a real issue with fear mongering on here and vagueness. It feels odd to me. But not making any assumptions either way. Some people don't wanna be transparent and that is fine. It just helps knowing what a person's  story is for reference. 

I can't police this site  and this site welcomes ALL of course, but I do have concerns as there is enough misunderstanding with benzos and psych meds and SLEEP and whatever else.  

[[re...]]

Please PLEASE anyone on here having massive sleep deprivation read TheWay's posts. It Is very in depth and will give you so much knowledge of sleep and will help you in your journey. 

What I have found to be super helpful is high tryptophan foods in all of this especially in the evening and it will take some time for it to work. But you MUST combine them. So if you have say Tuna or Turkey which are good sources of tryptophan you have to combine these with say tart cherry juice or a high carb food. The protein needs to be combined with high (or lower if you are keto) carbs if at all possible. The protein on it's own won't be sufficient enough to get into your cells. It needs a 'push' so to speak. 

I would also look at EVERYTHING you are eating, meaning ingredient lists and if it says stuff like Natural flavor, Flavorings, Soy Lechitin, Yeast extract (or extractives of anything), Broth, and the list goes on and on. 

Excitotoxins are REAL in all of this. Especially our compromised nervous systems. 

Check out the neurosurgeon Russell Blaylock and his stuff on MSG. He has done lots of research and his findings to me are certainly not quackery at all.

Of course he is smeared by many many 'mainstream' online 'science' publications that if you go far enough they are ALL funded by venture capitalists with $kin in the game (and sadly some from big pharma and big agri.)that definitely don't want this stuff getting out. I have said over and over again 'cigarette science'

GOD HELP US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PROFITS OVER HEALTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DANGEROUS CREATED MIND DRUGS FOR THE HUMAN CONDITION MADE PURPOSELY FOR LIFE LONG $UBSCRIPTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[[je...]]

6 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I see low post counts with fear posts and/or very vague descriptions and my brain screams TROLLS TROLLS TROLLS!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a real issue with fear mongering on here and vagueness. It feels odd to me. But not making any assumptions either way. Some people don't wanna be transparent and that is fine. It just helps knowing what a person's  story is for reference. 

I can't police this site  and this site welcomes ALL of course, but I do have concerns as there is enough misunderstanding with benzos and psych meds and SLEEP and whatever else.  

@[re...] the most likely explanation for low post counts and fear, is that these are new people who just learned what benzo withdrawal is and are in the thick of withdrawal and very scared of what is happening to them. Most of us have been in that situation, myself included. As you have suggested to others in a previous post, please be mindful of other people before you insinuate that they are trolls. 

You are not expected to police this site, that is what the team is for. If you have a problem with any post, please use the report function and the team will look at it.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

GOD HELP US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PROFITS OVER HEALTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DANGEROUS CREATED MIND DRUGS FOR THE HUMAN CONDITION MADE PURPOSELY FOR LIFE LONG $UBSCRIPTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have read many of your posts and the majority of it contains some form of anti-doctor, anti-meds content which is against our policy. Please tone it down as we are getting numerous reports about it. 

[[re...]]

I understand the newbie stuff and thank you for giving me a different perspective Jelly Baby and I appreciate it. 

But I also get worried it is not being taken care of properly in regards to the fear mongering and I just want to give people a different POSITIVE take on things and I always offer other positive alternative lifestyle things that I am doing anecdotally and also with proven studies people can be doing for their health.

You are completely correct and I should report something if it feels off to me. I apologize again for this big time.

No offense, but I also think you guys should be on this as their are tons of posts without any moderation in terms of at least having these people state their history in at least a post. There are also newbies coming in here READING things like "I heard lack of sleep can kill you" Think if for the first time you come here and hear this. It would scare the hell out any one  coming here for the first time.  

Never forget I am on the side of those HARMED on here and not against them. Sorry for my regurgitating outlandish posts.

I am not anti medical. 

In this post alone I usually put these kinds of things.

Have you had blood work seen a doc recently?

How can this be anti medical?

I am always telling people to go see doctors and get tested for things, but to be cautious of adding too many extra things to an already devastated nervous system. 

I do get angry and have many insults directed at the modern medical model yes I do. Because how can doctors (and this is the majority of them) STILL be doing rapid tapers and cold turkies to THERAPEUTIC users. IN 2024

This is a crime of epic proportions against the human populace I am sorry and get sick and tired of seeing this over and over again with the harm doctors are perpetuating with poly pharmacy. From Angie Peacock to many on here including me have had this happen to them with dire consequences. 

The harm is just too much to handle for me. I may need a break from here cause I can't take the damage doctors seem to be doing on a GRAND SCALE to people. And we can't deny additional med sensitivity to the  many in benzo withdrawal and I learned that from this site. I would NEVER tell someone not to take a life saving medicine like an antibiotic or anything like it. And if I have please show me.  And I have always said doctors are miracle workers on this site when it comes to sewing some one up in an accident, setting a broken arm,. But to go messing with the human brain with STRONG pharmaceuticals that are HELL to come off of.................. I can't help but think that this is a dinosaur and barbaric practice no different than blood letting back in the dark ages especially how doctors wean their patients off of psych meds. And to me it seems kind of like a form of torture, but just unknowingly for those perpetuating it which is possibly worse.   And until there is more funding for better studies on exercise and lifestyle especially for the human condition of stress, grieving, loss, etc. Then I will keep my position that it IS cigarette science funded by large intere$t groups over health. 

I just read MANY peoples struggles and I see so much of what I have been through in them and don't want them to get hurt further is all.   I really love all of you here, but my venting is probably annoying. Broken record stuff. Lol. I get it. 

And yes I think there is a profit driven modern medical model over health. How can anyone on this site deny this. Medicine can be a miracle. But when it focuses on stock holders over patients. WHICH IT DOES!!!!!!!!! Lets not be naive here. At least in America where I am from there is direct to consumer marketing. "ask your doctor about this pill and that pill" This is pure evil.  

Josef Witt Doering is right on with all of this.  And I feel you are being unfair to me with this. I will do my best to tone it down with the screaming of these things. But it doesn't make it any less true and I feel people are being a bit School marmy if they are reporting me for these things. When they should be questioning the darkest of dark "I heard lack of sleep can kill you" On a BENZO withdrawal site of all places. I don't think this is very wise to say on here.   At least my rants(some times) offer solutions on what I have seen working for me and am positive in regards to health this way. 

Off the topic.

I am not venting at YOU JB. I am just on a tear. I understand where you are coming from. 

Btw I love your Klonopin taper story and it gives me lots of hope on how you did it. 

Edited May 10 by [re...]

[[Ka...]]

@[re...] your topic on receptor occupancy was great & you are passionate sometimes vent but your post here is one of the best I’ve read. 

[[re...]]

Thank you so much Katrina I really needed that.

I know I get a bit out of hand and I am trying not to make excuses for it and other perspectives can help you reel it in a bit so to speak. But I can't be all fluffy either when so many are getting misguided by their doctors. 

I just care SO much about people being harmed by the ones they trusted. And are supposed to trust only to be thrown to the wolves of Big Pharma 'science' and it's practitioners only to go down a darker road long term. It saddens me.

Thank you again Katrina. You rock.

I did a 15 mile ride today up some crazy grades so I am pumped up right now. YEAH!!!!!!!!! 

[[Ka...]]

@[re...] ta very much. You are also trying hard to go further with your taper. & this of course is difficult. 

[[je...]]

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

You are completely correct and I should report something if it feels off to me. I apologize again for this big time.

Thank you for your understanding. I know your intentions are good.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

No offense, but I also think you guys should be on this as their are tons of posts without any moderation in terms of at least having these people state their history in at least a post.

When it relates to a taper we try and ask people to provide that information, but we will never force people to state information they are not comfortable with. FWIW moderation does not include searching every single post from all members for their histories as this is not a requirement to be a member. We are a small team of volunteers. 

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

There are also newbies coming in here READING things like "I heard lack of sleep can kill you" Think if for the first time you come here and hear this. It would scare the hell out any one  coming here for the first time.  

This issue had already been addressed by @[Th...] in his post. There is no reason for a team member to step in when members can sufficiently address and debunk these issues themselves. Otherwise this site becomes over-moderated and heavy-handed.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

Have you had blood work seen a doc recently?

How can this be anti medical?

I did not say this was anti medical - it was never mentioned by me.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I do get angry and have many insults directed at the modern medical model yes I do. Because how can doctors (and this is the majority of them) STILL be doing rapid tapers and cold turkies to THERAPEUTIC users. IN 2024

This is a crime of epic proportions against the human populace I am sorry and get sick and tired of seeing this over and over again with the harm doctors are perpetuating with poly pharmacy.

We are all angry and I would dare to say 99% on here have been harmed by their doctors, myself included. But constantly lashing out at the medical profession, insulting them, stating that drugs are only there to benefit big pharma in their quest to make money is problematic. How? Because it doesn't provide a balanced view. It turns people against doctors, against using necessary medication and hesitant to seek medical help. We are constantly bombarded with the bad about the medical profession, while lacking the same amount of info when people were supported and found good medical treatment. 

My doctor made a life-changing diagnosis for me in the middle of my withdrawal. One week after I jumped I started having diarhoea, bloating and cramps. My brainfog, headaches, head pressure and migraines were off the charts. Because it started one week after jumping, I assumed it was acute withdrawal. I didn't even ask about it here on BB because I knew everyone would tell me it was just acute. For 5 months I suffered really bad symptoms because of "withdrawal". Finally I mentioned it to my doctor, who said to me "this is not withdrawal". How many members do you think will listen to their doctor if they told them it is not withdrawal? She diagnosed me with a gluten intolerance and once it got sorted, the GI issues disappeared completely and then my normal withdrawal symptoms got so much better. 

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

But to go messing with the human brain with STRONG pharmaceuticals that are HELL to come off of..

We have many members who are successfully using anti-depressants or other psych drugs and we should respect that. 

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

And until there is more funding for better studies on exercise and lifestyle especially for the human condition of stress, grieving, loss, etc. Then I will keep my position that it IS cigarette science funded by large intere$t groups over health. 

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are still expected to follow our rules.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I just read MANY peoples struggles and I see so much of what I have been through in them and don't want them to get hurt further is all. 

I can see you really care and I don't doubt your intentions for a minute. There are different ways to support people than lashing out at the medical establishment and working people up over it. Providing emotional and tapering support are the most dire needs around here.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

And yes I think there is a profit driven modern medical model over health. How can anyone on this site deny this. Medicine can be a miracle. But when it focuses on stock holders over patients. WHICH IT DOES!!!!!!!!! Lets not be naive here. At least in America where I am from there is direct to consumer marketing. "ask your doctor about this pill and that pill" This is pure evil. 

I'm not denying there is a monetary factor involved, but I don't believe it is as simple as that and strictly done to harm patients. Not every single pill is evil and not every single pill is harmful. 

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

Josef Witt Doering is right on with all of this.

There is a lot of problematic content with what he says.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

And I feel you are being unfair to me with this.

I don't know where I have treated you unfairly, but you are welcome to start a thread in the Helpdesk if you feel you are being treated unfairly.

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I am not venting at YOU JB. I am just on a tear. I understand where you are coming from. 

Btw I love your Klonopin taper story and it gives me lots of hope on how you did it. 

I know and I understand. You are trying to help, but sometimes the delivery needs adjustment (and also maybe less capitals and exclamations ).