Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Bob7

 

Is it possible to use one of those pill fillers from amazon for dry powder tapering? I've never used one. I imagine it's

for dumping the same amount of ..whatever ingredient in all of them.

 

They need a measuring machine too.

 

The method is still intimidating to me, my fat fingers, capsules, measuring math. Am I over thinking it?

 

Ty

Infoshare

Well I am not sure which filler you refer to but the ones I use are from Amazon.  I can send you a link and some instructions if you have not seen them already.

As for over thinking it.  I think you might be.  I am hoping to build a website with some videos on how to do it.  I don't think it is too hard.  Peaceflower is doing it right now so you might PM her for a second opinion.  She said she would share her experience.

 

I would be interested in the website too. I am having a lot of anxiety about doing it and holding off thinking about it until I stabilize for a month. Although I think with Librium I may just be able to reduce by .001g in the scale. The 5mg pills weigh .162x 6 = .972 for 30 mg. Thinking .001g reduction a day would be about 1 mg a month maybe 3.5% or so. I am not great with math let me know what you think Bob. I wouldn’t need to use the filler for this then correct?

Checking your math.  Yes, your numbers are close when you round off.  Here is the exact version:

Knowing 6 of your pills give a 30 mg dose and weigh 0.972 grams.

If you reduce 0.001 grams per day then in 30 days (one month) you have reduced 0.03 grams which is 3.09% for that first month representing a dose reduction of 0.93 mg.

I have starting working on the website.  Not sure how long to finish it but hopefully in a week or two.

 

Thank you so much. If I start with that for now I won’t need the filler correct?

You are correct. When you get much lower in dose we can talk about needing to add filler.

[[bu...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

[[...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

[[Fr...]]

I was so sick on liquid and see so many people here daily who write that they can’t tolerate it. Plus many friends in the community that just couldn’t do it either. As soon as I took it in pill form felt so much better.

 

I wish everyone had a good response Builder but a lot just don’t.

[[Bo...]]

I will try to stay on liquid for a few days and hopefully the symptoms will calm down, will go back to 3.5mgs and hold then adjust. My first ever valium script was liquid and half of my benzo career, but switch to tablets few years ago for whatever reason.

 

Seems like it was easier to come off back in 2015 when I was drinking alchohol more than usual, but now a days I rarely drink.

 

 

I realize that I clinch my teeth more and more and I am sure while im sleeping i clinch them harder as I wake up with mild headaches.

 

work out just about everyday so headaches go away pretty fast.

 

could also be a combination of not working and just home most of the day because im 100 percent vet.

 

i wonder since 3.5 mgs is a pretty small dose for valium, I should take it all at once. it does have a long half life

[[Bo...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

Before I dose I always have the shake the jar a little because u can see some of the solution at the bottom... I don,t think it is always an accurate dose when drawing the syringes, but it should not have be a major issue if u are off by a lil ml.. just as long it is not a whole ml.

 

could also be the fact that some people are just sensitive to the alchohol

 

[[ci...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

 

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

The switch to liquid was not difficult for me.  I have been on benzos for over 25 years.  So I don’t think that is it.  I think it’s important when people cross to liquid to hold the dose for a couple weeks before they begin to taper.

 

I started doing the subtraction method of dosing and threw away the small bit.  I made sure to rinse the jar and drink the residual dregs twice.  Klonopin is a very strong, and those infitesimal bits can make a difference.  Same thing now that I draw my dose into the syringes.  I have to draw water through them twice to clear out the dregs.

 

 

[[ga...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

[[in...]]

I had bad trouble, feeling like a cold turkey cut or close to it, without taking Any Cut at all. My first step was to convert to liquid and hold for a couple weeks.

I followed builder math and had much pratctice(the method worked perfectly for my low dose of mirtazapine).

 

I rinsed out my jar after swallowing it. I rinsed syringe but not into my jar. Would that be a big enough cause? I don't think so. I would love it to be though.

 

All of Sep I dissolved my 2mg Valium tablet in 40ml vodka/ added 60ml water for a 100% solution. Verified with my kitchen scale.

After a few days it started to feel worse and worse, but I kept going. I could never go more than 5 days. Chest pain, fear, dread, doom feeling. Bad.

Took a break tried again and again.

 

Then first part of Oct tried milk titration with rinsing. It takes a least several hours for tablets to start to dissolve in fat whole milk. So left it overnight. Measured and about day 5 was too rough to continue. Again no cutting. Just equivalent conversion.

 

These sincere efforts failed and has set my nerves back quite a bit.  Anytime I've tried a Rx liquid form, prepared, same thing happened, actually faster.

 

Infoshare.

[[...]]

I had bad trouble, feeling like a cold turkey cut or close to it, without taking Any Cut at all. My first step was to convert to liquid and hold for a couple weeks.

I followed builder math and had much pratctice(the method worked perfectly for my low dose of mirtazapine).

 

I rinsed out my jar after swallowing it. I rinsed syringe but not into my jar. Would that be a big enough cause? I don't think so. I would love it to be though.

 

All of Sep I dissolved my 2mg Valium tablet in 40ml vodka/ added 60ml water for a 100% solution. Verified with my kitchen scale.

After a few days it started to feel worse and worse, but I kept going. I could never go more than 5 days. Chest pain, fear, dread, doom feeling. Bad.

Took a break tried again and again.

 

Then first part of Oct tried milk titration with rinsing. It takes a least several hours for tablets to start to dissolve in fat whole milk. So left it overnight. Measured and about day 5 was too rough to continue. Again no cutting. Just equivalent conversion.

 

These sincere efforts failed and has set my nerves back quite a bit.  Anytime I've tried a Rx liquid form, prepared, same thing happened, actually faster.

 

Infoshare.

Infoshare,

You really did give the Liquid Taper a good try.

I am not sure why it works so well for some but it does seem like people on Benzos the longest have the most trouble.

I am creating a website for doing accurate dry tapers with super small daily reductions - hope to have it up in a week or two - at least a draft version.

 

[[Fr...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

 

Gardie was it just fine from the beginning or did you need to take some time to adjust?

[[Pe...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

I myself had difficulty with liquid however, never did daily micro with liquid.

I just read recently in a blog on Mad In America from a lady who had difficulty with her taper. She mentioned that alcohol has a "kindling" effect on benzos. She recommended no alcohol intake during WD.

When referred to with alcohol withdrawal, the addicted person's symptoms worsen when reintroduced to the stimuli, which is alcohol in this case. Their symptoms of WD become worse than prior.

In the case with benzos, she mentions that the reason alcohol has a kindling effect on benzos is because benzos are alcohol based. This idea makes total sense to me if many of our members in this thread are dissolving their pills in alcohol.

To test out the theory I have been obstaining from any occasional glass of wine or beer and have been doing great. I had one hard cider and one beer last week on 2 different days.Some of my WD symptoms have seemed to increase, such as sleep disturbance and mind chatter.

I believe this is a valid point and maybe so for those who may have ultra sensitive central nervous systems like myself.

 

Peace

[[in...]]

Has anyone had success or same as vodka using propylene glycol in making the brew? I'd try it in a heartbeat, if the theory about

alcohol kindling is the problem. Som use ora blend, not sure what the difference is. But I believe they are water soluble, not alcohol based.

But I'm pretty sure something like PG is used in Rx pharmacy brews. The one I tried many years ago from Point of Return felt like a complet CT

the first day, no cut, just equivalent. Man!

 

Thanks Peacemaker for the info

Infoshare

[[Pe...]]

Has anyone had success or same as vodka using propylene glycol in making the brew? I'd try it in a heartbeat, if the theory about

alcohol kindling is the problem. Som use ora blend, not sure what the difference is. But I believe they are water soluble, not alcohol based.

But I'm pretty sure something like PG is used in Rx pharmacy brews. The one I tried many years ago from Point of Return felt like a complet CT

the first day, no cut, just equivalent. Man!

 

Thanks Peacemaker for the info

Infoshare

You're welcome Info!

I posted this in hopes of other members weighing in. I myself believe there is validity to it but I'm in no position to recommend alternatives.

If some members are doing fine with dissolving in alcohol then they shouldn't change.

Our experience are so individualized and unique to each person.

 

Peaceflower

[[Fr...]]

I had a friend of mine tell me she knows someone than uses xantham gum.

[[Bo...]]

What i do is take the dosages i need and put it in a glass and then add more water so i don't get to much of the harsh vodka taste.

Is there anything else i am missing? Like I say i shake the jar before i draw my dose. I draw twice with the same 10ml syringe and then draw with 1ml to get the .0mg.

Maybe i should just squirt the the dose in my mouth lol.

 

Now that i think of it. The first 2 days i tried the liquid. I only put two 2mgs tablet 8ml vodka 32ml water just to see how my body reacts which was fine, but when i did the 10 day solution this is when things took a lil turn. So maybe im not gettin all the benzo out. Maybe i have to do the solution everyday.

[[Bo...]]

I had bad trouble, feeling like a cold turkey cut or close to it, without taking Any Cut at all. My first step was to convert to liquid and hold for a couple weeks.

I followed builder math and had much pratctice(the method worked perfectly for my low dose of mirtazapine).

 

I rinsed out my jar after swallowing it. I rinsed syringe but not into my jar. Would that be a big enough cause? I don't think so. I would love it to be though.

 

All of Sep I dissolved my 2mg Valium tablet in 40ml vodka/ added 60ml water for a 100% solution. Verified with my kitchen scale.

After a few days it started to feel worse and worse, but I kept going. I could never go more than 5 days. Chest pain, fear, dread, doom feeling. Bad.

Took a break tried again and again.

 

Then first part of Oct tried milk titration with rinsing. It takes a least several hours for tablets to start to dissolve in fat whole milk. So left it overnight. Measured and about day 5 was too rough to continue. Again no cutting. Just equivalent conversion.

 

These sincere efforts failed and has set my nerves back quite a bit.  Anytime I've tried a Rx liquid form, prepared, same thing happened, actually faster.

 

Infoshare.

s

 

Hi,

 

I am assuming you put 20mg of valium to the 40ml of vodka? 60ml of water sounds like to little. Shouldnt it be 140ml of water to get 200ml solution?

[Guest [...]]

I've used 80% proof vodka 4ml for a 2mg V tablet and diluted this with 56ml water when dissolved. As my current rate of taper is 0.5mg a month first day consume all the liquid, next day discard 1ml from the next batch. I have made larger batches up as well and they've kept for 7 days in the fridge. As of yet I've not noticed any difference when switching as the bulk of my dose is dry. It seems too prone to error to try and dry cut tablets for me but I get for some it doesn't work for them.

As for 'kindling' if it exists, the amount of alcohol is so small as to be irrelevant to my mind. Most otc meds for things like colds etc have more alcohol and I think even some liquid V uses alcohol as a base.

As I get lower and more of my dose is liquid things could change.

[[Ma...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

 

Excellent post Gardie, there are so many ways to make mistakes and your post just gave people a great list of things to look out for....great job, love Mary💜💚❤️💙🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃

[[bu...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

 

It only stand to reason that long term users will have more difficulty tapering off, no matter what method they use.  The problem is NOT the method, the problem is the duration of the dependency.

 

There were hundreds (thousands?) of folks on the old BDR board doing liquid tapers, and no one ever reported any issues with liquid.  Perhaps the the problem has more to do with BB than with liquid formulations.   

 

BTW, there is actually extensive research on liquid benzo solutions.  Here is a graphical summary of specific benzo solubility.  There are links the underlying research:

 

Scroll down the Reply #37.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

[Guest [...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

 

It only stand to reason that long term users will have more difficulty tapering off, no matter what method they use.  The problem is NOT the method, the problem is the duration of the dependency.

 

There were hundreds (thousands?) of folks on the old BDR board doing liquid tapers, and no one ever reported any issues with liquid.  Perhaps the the problem has more to do with BB than with liquid formulations.   

 

BTW, there is actually extensive research on liquid benzo solutions.  Here is a graphical summary of specific benzo solubility.  There are links the underlying research:

 

Scroll down the Reply #37.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

The words 'nail' and 'head' spring to mind Builder

I'm having a tougher time with my DLMT due to 2 1/2 years benzo use and a c/t plus reinstatement plus other meds and age (57). I don't link this in any other way to a portion of my dose being liquid. It was going to be tough whatever route I took due to a relatively high 12mg V use for too darned long. I only left it this long to tackle as I had to get off of Quetiapine and Pregabalin first. That decision was based on purely on risk to my health as both have serious consequences of chronic usage. More so than V in my estimation.

Staz

 

[[ga...]]

 

Gardie was it just fine from the beginning or did you need to take some time to adjust?

 

My taper has been complicated. I'll try to explain.

 

I had my Librium prescription written as 5mg capsules. That's the smallest size. So when I started tapering L, my dosing looked something like this.

 

morning: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

evening: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

 

I had just crossed from prescription liquid Xanax to Librium capsules. I was such a complete mess from a too-rapid taper and the crossover, I don't think I would have noticed if the switch did anything. I did notice I was very depressed on Librium, but that is not unusual. I went right to the above schedule and tapered away a capsule to reduce my depression. Then I held for a year at whole capsules.

 

When I started up again. I liquefied just 1 capsule from each dose and held for about 2 weeks. Then I started my micro taper very, very slowly to ease into it. Each time I liquefied another capsule, I held for a week or two to be safe. But I did not notice any big problems. More like just being nervous from the new routine and new figuring. Holding while I adjusted to the new routine helped.

 

Perhaps taking part of my dose as capsules and only dissolving a small part of my dose helped me.

 

One other thought. Dissolving a drug in alcohol is a chemical change. Whether or not that is different from the changes that occur in the stomach system, I don't know.

 

Gardie

[[ga...]]

 

I myself had difficulty with liquid however, never did daily micro with liquid.

I just read recently in a blog on Mad In America from a lady who had difficulty with her taper. She mentioned that alcohol has a "kindling" effect on benzos. She recommended no alcohol intake during WD.

When referred to with alcohol withdrawal, the addicted person's symptoms worsen when reintroduced to the stimuli, which is alcohol in this case. Their symptoms of WD become worse than prior.

In the case with benzos, she mentions that the reason alcohol has a kindling effect on benzos is because benzos are alcohol based. This idea makes total sense to me if many of our members in this thread are dissolving their pills in alcohol.

To test out the theory I have been obstaining from any occasional glass of wine or beer and have been doing great. I had one hard cider and one beer last week on 2 different days.Some of my WD symptoms have seemed to increase, such as sleep disturbance and mind chatter.

I believe this is a valid point and maybe so for those who may have ultra sensitive central nervous systems like myself.

 

Peace

 

I've heard of others being super sensitive to alcohol. I'm only taking 6ml of vodka per day. I've never been much of a drinker at all. I don't think I'm very sensitive to it.

[[ga...]]

Has anyone had success or same as vodka using propylene glycol in making the brew? I'd try it in a heartbeat, if the theory about

alcohol kindling is the problem. Som use ora blend, not sure what the difference is. But I believe they are water soluble, not alcohol based.

But I'm pretty sure something like PG is used in Rx pharmacy brews. The one I tried many years ago from Point of Return felt like a complet CT

the first day, no cut, just equivalent. Man!

 

Thanks Peacemaker for the info

Infoshare

 

If you use OraPlus you are making a suspension not a solution, so that's a very different thing. There's no chemical change to the drug. There's no alcohol. You're just breaking the drug into tiny bits and suspending it evenly in the OraPlus. Some people have success with that. It's kind of expensive for me.

[[ga...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

 

Excellent post Gardie, there are so many ways to make mistakes and your post just gave people a great list of things to look out for....great job, love Mary💜💚❤️💙🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃

 

Hi, Mary! And thanks! I should add that I did a lot of research and practiced with water to get rid of all my mistakes before I started.