Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Hello Bob 7 Thanks for your reply. I am sorry my description meant to say I would take one 5mg tablet and then do the other 5 mg with the liquid taper. I can see where that would throw you off big time. I would then move after tapering the first 5mg to tapering the second 5mg via liquid Valium. Thank you for helping with the math. My brain just is not capable of dealing with it right now.

Spinner1,

The table below shows your daily dose when taking 5 mg tablet plus 5 mL of liquid where each day you replace what you took out with 5 mL water.

This assumes you start with 250 mL bottle in which each mL equal 1 mg of Valium.

If you want the math for a 125 mL bottle, let me know, but that will be a faster taper.

Note, I stopped the math after 100 days because your bottle becomes so diluted with water, your doctor would probably have you doing something else by that time.

 

Day Total (mg)

1 10.000

2 9.900

3 9.802

4 9.706

5 9.612

6 9.520

7 9.429

8 9.341

9 9.254

10 9.169

11 9.085

12 9.004

13 8.924

14 8.845

15 8.768

16 8.693

17 8.619

18 8.547

19 8.476

20 8.406

21 8.338

22 8.271

23 8.206

24 8.142

25 8.079

26 8.017

27 7.957

28 7.898

29 7.840

30 7.783

31 7.727

32 7.673

33 7.619

34 7.567

35 7.516

36 7.465

37 7.416

38 7.368

39 7.320

40 7.274

41 7.229

42 7.184

43 7.140

44 7.097

45 7.055

46 7.014

47 6.974

48 6.935

49 6.896

50 6.858

51 6.821

52 6.784

53 6.749

54 6.714

55 6.679

56 6.646

57 6.613

58 6.581

59 6.549

60 6.518

61 6.488

62 6.458

63 6.429

64 6.400

65 6.372

66 6.345

67 6.318

68 6.292

69 6.266

70 6.240

71 6.216

72 6.191

73 6.167

74 6.144

75 6.121

76 6.099

77 6.077

78 6.055

79 6.034

80 6.014

81 5.993

82 5.973

83 5.954

84 5.935

85 5.916

86 5.898

87 5.880

88 5.862

89 5.845

90 5.828

91 5.812

92 5.795

93 5.779

94 5.764

95 5.749

96 5.734

97 5.719

98 5.705

99 5.690

100 5.677

 

[[Sp...]]

Wow this really helps me see what the micro tapering would look like. I think I could handle this. It looks like almost three years to reduce my dose to 5.677 mg. Is that number basically leaving the one 5mg tablet at that point? I know I am asking a lot from you but could you run the numbers on the 125ml bottle?

If I did one 125ml bottle for the first 5mg tablet and then use a second bottle to taper completely off the drug would that make sense? Forgive me if I seem kind of dense on this but I want to get this right before seeing my psychiatrist. Thank you so much. I feel really encouraged. I hope I am not looking at 300 plus days to get off this drug. I am hoping to cut it down to about a year or year and a half. What are your thoughts on this?

[[Sp...]]

Hi Bob, I am not sure where my head was at last night but I do not know where I came up with my concern for it taking 300 days to taper off of 5mg of Valium. Your number show that there would be 5.677mg of Valium left at the end of 100 days. Am I seeing that right? Does that basically mean I would have just the second 5mg tablet yet to taper using your same method? That would add another 100 days to be totally off of Valium which is fine if I can get my shrink to give me a 250ml bottle of liquid.

I am sorry to keep bugging you but I am having a hard time now since I have reached tolerance to my Valium for quite a while. Thanks for your patience.

[[...]]

Hi Bob, I am not sure where my head was at last night but I do not know where I came up with my concern for it taking 300 days to taper off of 5mg of Valium. Your number show that there would be 5.677mg of Valium left at the end of 100 days. Am I seeing that right? Does that basically mean I would have just the second 5mg tablet yet to taper using your same method? That would add another 100 days to be totally off of Valium which is fine if I can get my shrink to give me a 250ml bottle of liquid.

I am sorry to keep bugging you but I am having a hard time now since I have reached tolerance to my Valium for quite a while. Thanks for your patience.

Yes you have everything right. It would take you 100 days with the schedule I gave you to reach 5.6 mg. That be about the time to switch to the other bottle. Yes I can rerun it for 125 mL bottle but it’s gonna have to be late tonight or tomorrow morning because I’m away from my computer driving across country for the day.

Sorry for the short note but I have to type this into my phone.

[[Fr...]]

I am in the process of designing a micro taper program for myself. I am taking 10mg of Valium per day. 2  5mg tablets. The liquid Valium sounds like a good way to do this. I found one compounding pharmacy that recommended that I take 1 tablet and the 5mg in liquid to start, tapering the liquid until I got down to the 5mg tablet. They then suggest converting to all liquid. What do you think about this plan? I want to get off of this drug in a big way but the thought of experiencing more anxiety as I taper is even making me more anxious. How do you cope with the rebound or do you taper slow enough that you do not feel much additional anxiety? I appreciate your help.

[/quote

Lots of people do that sort of thing. I was taking 2 whole capsules of Librium plus one dissolved capsule of Librium for each of my doses when I started. Then I was down to one whole capsule and one dissolved capsule per dose. Now that I am down to one capsule per dose, I am on all liquid and no capsules. Less liquid to deal with has been a good thing for me.

 

Gardener99 couldnyou explain a little more how you taper your dissolved capsule of Librium?

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener99 couldnyou explain a little more how you taper your dissolved capsule of Librium?

 

 

Hi Jen.  Here's a link to my p-log. I've written out my system there for easy reference. It's near the top of page 5.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137858.40

 

Gardie

 

 

[[Fr...]]

 

Gardener99 couldnyou explain a little more how you taper your dissolved capsule of Librium?

 

 

Hi Jen.  Here's a link to my p-log. I've written out my system there for easy reference. It's near the top of page 5.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137858.40

 

Gardie

 

Thank you.

[[Ca...]]

Hey everyone!

 

I’m currently microtapering valium, using the Roxanne 5mg/5ml liquid prescription. My doses are split into 3 per day. I take a 2 mg pill in the morning around 8:15 am, then a half of a 2 mg (1 mg) pill plus .14 ml liquid at around 4:30/5:00 pm, and then a 2 mg pill at bedtime around 11:30/1200.  I’m working with the liquid in 1 mg equivalents, and keeping the rest of my doses in pill form, and slowly lowering the liquid each day using a 1 ml oral syringe and reducing it by .01 ml (.01 mg) daily. At this rate it will take me at least 500 days to be off of this stuff. Someone please tell me that there will be times I will be able to go faster?  I’ve been tapering for 4 years and I’m so tired of it. Need some uplifting thoughts and encouragement.

 

I am down from 11 mg Valium daily which was the result of a partial crossover from 1.5 mg of Xanax daily (I tapered the Xanax  out and partially crossed it over to Valium).  I know I’ve come so far, but this slow crawl is hard to accept especially with the onset of more intense symptoms and some new ones too.

[[bu...]]

Most folks need to keep a fairly level percentage reduction rate, which means as your dose gets lower, your absolute reduction rate (mgs or mls) will decline.

 

The good news is, at your current dose, you may soon actually reach a level where you no longer have any real dependency, and can actually increase your cut rate, or even jump.

 

I had zero sxs after I got down to 3mg and was able to accelerate my taper.  I jumped at .5 with no residual sxs, and honestly believe I could have jumped much sooner.

[[...]]

Hi Bob, I am not sure where my head was at last night but I do not know where I came up with my concern for it taking 300 days to taper off of 5mg of Valium. Your number show that there would be 5.677mg of Valium left at the end of 100 days. Am I seeing that right? Does that basically mean I would have just the second 5mg tablet yet to taper using your same method? That would add another 100 days to be totally off of Valium which is fine if I can get my shrink to give me a 250ml bottle of liquid.

I am sorry to keep bugging you but I am having a hard time now since I have reached tolerance to my Valium for quite a while. Thanks for your patience.

Spinner1,

Here is the data for using a 125 mL bottle.  Good luck:

Day Total (mg)

1 10.000

2 9.800

3 9.608

4 9.424

5 9.247

6 9.077

7 8.914

8 8.757

9 8.607

10 8.463

11 8.324

12 8.191

13 8.064

14 7.941

15 7.823

16 7.710

17 7.602

18 7.498

19 7.398

20 7.302

21 7.210

22 7.122

23 7.037

24 6.955

25 6.877

26 6.802

27 6.730

28 6.661

29 6.594

30 6.531

31 6.469

32 6.411

33 6.354

34 6.300

35 6.248

36 6.198

37 6.150

38 6.104

39 6.060

40 6.018

41 5.977

42 5.938

43 5.900

44 5.864

45 5.830

46 5.796

47 5.765

48 5.734

49 5.705

50 5.676

51 5.649

52 5.623

53 5.599

54 5.575

55 5.552

56 5.530

57 5.508

58 5.488

59 5.468

60 5.450

61 5.432

62 5.414

63 5.398

64 5.382

65 5.367

66 5.352

67 5.338

68 5.324

69 5.311

70 5.299

71 5.287

72 5.276

73 5.265

74 5.254

75 5.244

76 5.234

77 5.225

78 5.216

79 5.207

80 5.199

81 5.191

82 5.183

83 5.176

84 5.169

85 5.162

86 5.156

87 5.149

88 5.143

89 5.138

90 5.132

91 5.127

92 5.122

93 5.117

94 5.112

95 5.108

96 5.103

97 5.099

98 5.095

99 5.092

100 5.088

 

[[Sp...]]

Thanks Bob, I sure value your input. I wish you the very best on your journey towards good health. I have a lot of questions going forward. You and Builder and Jeff have been my support line in my quest to get off of the psyche meds that I am on. I have not increased my Valium dose for at least a year and and a half. I suspect I have reached tolerance level and it is thus having less and less of a tranquilizing effect on me. It is not a fun experience as you are well aware of. As I begin my taper off of Valium what are some of the best ways you learned to cope as you are withdrawing off your benzo? I only slept 4 hours last night. The rest of the night I laid there and just felt hopeless and depressed. Have you had nights like this? I have been sleeping poorly for years and I think tapering is going to just make things worse. I hope not but I would like to hear how you and some of the others coming off benzos deal with this.

[[...]]

Thanks Bob, I sure value your input. I wish you the very best on your journey towards good health. I have a lot of questions going forward. You and Builder and Jeff have been my support line in my quest to get off of the psyche meds that I am on. I have not increased my Valium dose for at least a year and and a half. I suspect I have reached tolerance level and it is thus having less and less of a tranquilizing effect on me. It is not a fun experience as you are well aware of. As I begin my taper off of Valium what are some of the best ways you learned to cope as you are withdrawing off your benzo? I only slept 4 hours last night. The rest of the night I laid there and just felt hopeless and depressed. Have you had nights like this? I have been sleeping poorly for years and I think tapering is going to just make things worse. I hope not but I would like to hear how you and some of the others coming off benzos deal with this.

I’m typing this into my phone so please forgive it being messy-I’m on the road for several more days. I have suffered with anxiety induced insomnia for years and it is muchm worse during benzo withdrawal.  If it gets really bad I recommend you some buspar - Take it in the morning so that it fixes your anxiety by the time you’re ready for bed-it’s not a perfect fix but it does make things tolerable-I only use it for couple weeks in emergencies.

For over the counter remedies I take 50 to 100mg  L'Theanine two hours before bed or Decaffeinated green tea.  Then at bed I’ll take chamomile extract and aspirin or Advil or both if I’m suffering and definitely Magnesium Glycinate. Epsom Bath good too.  I then read until sleepy or listen to a YouTube Guided meditation to sleep. When I wake up in the night I’ll take some more of these over the counter things  and they always help me. Don’t forget reaching out to higher power through all this - I believe God will give you help when you ask.

[[Ca...]]

Most folks need to keep a fairly level percentage reduction rate, which means as your dose gets lower, your absolute reduction rate (mgs or mls) will decline.

 

The good news is, at your current dose, you may soon actually reach a level where you no longer have any real dependency, and can actually increase your cut rate, or even jump.

 

I had zero sxs after I got down to 3mg and was able to accelerate my taper.  I jumped at .5 with no residual sxs, and honestly believe I could have jumped much sooner.

 

I wish I could reach through the screen and hug you!  You’ve given me a lot of hope and insight which makes good sense to me. I didn’t know that we can reach a level where we don’t have any real dependency- but I do know of several people who have done slow tapers who experienced ease with making bigger cuts towards the end of their taper. I really hope I arrive at this place soon. It’s been a long road and I’m ready to move on.

[[Ma...]]

After two years of doing a liquid micro taper, I am at 3.5. I held the lot due to unrelated issues. The percentages , if they stay the same ,will extend the taper dramatically. At what point do you put less emphasis on percentages? 4 to 3 is over 3 months and it gets much longer below.  Any feedback will be appreciated .

[[ga...]]

After two years of doing a liquid micro taper, I am at 3.5. I held the lot due to unrelated issues. The percentages , if they stay the same ,will extend the taper dramatically. At what point do you put less emphasis on percentages? 4 to 3 is over 3 months and it gets much longer below.  Any feedback will be appreciated .

 

I kind if go with how I feel. I make the same cut for a month or two and then if I'm getting more symptoms, I go back to whatever percentage I felt was tolerable. Helps to keep a record of rates and symptoms, too, so I know I felt OK at 10% but not at 15%.

[[bu...]]

IMO, the most "efficient" way to taper is to do reductions at the same fixed rate (mgs/day) as long as you aren't experiencing major sxs.

 

With a daily taper, your body will give you fair warning when you need to re-evaluate your taper rate.

 

Over the course of my taper, I learned that as long as my taper rate was under about 6%/2 weeks, I was fine.  So I would stay at a given mgs/day schedule until my declining dose meant it was approaching 6%/2 weeks.

[[Fr...]]

I am in the process of crossing to Librium and then will start a daily micro taper making my own capsules with a scale and the powder. What is a good way to come up with the best rate to start with? When I was dry cutting micro tapering K all I could handle was reducing by .0005mg a day. I was very tolerant to K. Since I know that is what worked for me is it a good idea to do that equivalent of Librium so .025mg a day?

 

I know they are different meds and I will not be tolerant to L so maybe a different rate would be better. How did any of you make this determination. I am extremely sensitive and have been mostly non functioning since tolerant on K a year and a half.

[[Ma...]]

Thanks. Builder. I was hoping you would chime in!  When I started two years ago, I was horrified at thought of a two year taper.  Look at me now!  Slow is the only way,

[[Sp...]]

I am beginning a 6 month taper off of Valium. Thanks everybody for your support. I am frightened at the aspect of tapering off of the 10mg using any procedure because I have already reached tolerance on the Valium so even though it helps quell my anxiety it does not really help all that much. I am going to use a liquid Valium to taper off of the first 5mg along with a 5mg tablet. Bob7 was kind enough to do the calcs on how to do that and the time required. Six months sound like a long time but then again I am not getting by very well with my full dose of 10mg tablets as is. I may want to even slow it down further but I am going to give it a try this week. I am planning to use meditation and exercise to counter the withdrawal symptoms. If you have other suggestions I would love to hear them. I also am curious about a herb called Kratom. It attaches to your opium receptors and does provide relief from anxiety and depression and pain but apparently it is addictive and requires higher and higher dosages similar to Benzos. I have tried some and it has helped me considerably in social situations. I don't want to use it if I am just replacing Valium with another drug. I am curious if any of you have had experience with this drug...herb... and if so would you recommend a limited use of it to help me with the side effects of my taper? Thank you all for your feedback.

[[ga...]]

I am beginning a 6 month taper off of Valium. Thanks everybody for your support. I am frightened at the aspect of tapering off of the 10mg using any procedure because I have already reached tolerance on the Valium so even though it helps quell my anxiety it does not really help all that much. I am going to use a liquid Valium to taper off of the first 5mg along with a 5mg tablet. Bob7 was kind enough to do the calcs on how to do that and the time required. Six months sound like a long time but then again I am not getting by very well with my full dose of 10mg tablets as is. I may want to even slow it down further but I am going to give it a try this week. I am planning to use meditation and exercise to counter the withdrawal symptoms. If you have other suggestions I would love to hear them. I also am curious about a herb called Kratom. It attaches to your opium receptors and does provide relief from anxiety and depression and pain but apparently it is addictive and requires higher and higher dosages similar to Benzos. I have tried some and it has helped me considerably in social situations. I don't want to use it if I am just replacing Valium with another drug. I am curious if any of you have had experience with this drug...herb... and if so would you recommend a limited use of it to help me with the side effects of my taper? Thank you all for your feedback.

I've never heard of it. Here's the board that has info on herbs, supplements and such. Maybe someone there has info.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=110.0

[[of...]]

Reading and Following...

[[Bu...]]

Hi everyone,

I am fairly new to this and have a few questions. Bob7, what size capsules would be best for dry tapering K? I have spent several days reading this forum and have found much invaluable information.

  I am currently using milk for titration and have been on this for over 3 weeks and I am thinking it is not sitting well. I am very sensitive to any alcohol, even tiny amounts so I am thinking I will go to dry cutting. I have all equipment except for the capsules and the microcrystalline powder which I will order today. Also if you could give me guidance on how to fill the capsules by weight mixing the 2 substances, I would so appreciate it.

    To the rest of the ones on here, I thank you for being here. You guys are amazing!! If you have any questions for me please ask.

 

Regards To All,

Butter

[[...]]

Hi everyone,

I am fairly new to this and have a few questions. Bob7, what size capsules would be best for dry tapering K? I have spent several days reading this forum and have found much invaluable information.

  I am currently using milk for titration and have been on this for over 3 weeks and I am thinking it is not sitting well. I am very sensitive to any alcohol, even tiny amounts so I am thinking I will go to dry cutting. I have all equipment except for the capsules and the microcrystalline powder which I will order today. Also if you could give me guidance on how to fill the capsules by weight mixing the 2 substances, I would so appreciate it.

    To the rest of the ones on here, I thank you for being here. You guys are amazing!! If you have any questions for me please ask.

 

Regards To All,

Butter

Hi Butter,

 

I’m going to cut and paste a bunch of stuff which I wrote for others to help them. I’m on my phone right now so it’s hard to type but we can talk more later when I’m at an actual keyboard. The gel capsules I use is item number three below but here’s all four things I use:

 

(1)    A good scale able to read 0.001 grams.  This is what I bought: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B011J88S8M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(2)    Microcrystalline Cellulose Power

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B074HGD7LV/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(3)    '00' Gel Capsules

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E40DJ82/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&th=1

(4) A pill organizer big enough to organize the 28 pills (you need to make sure you keep them in the correct order if each pill is a smaller dose).  I use this from amazon:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0070P6A0M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Here is the overall process.  You crush klonopin, mix it with the filler, and use your scale to weigh amounts into the gel capsules.  Each capsule will have slightly less of the mixture in order to get the taper rate you desire.  The math is hard but I will do it for you.  I will compute how much powder to mix, how many tablets to crush, and how much to put in each capsule for each day for your taper. I can even share the math with you if you want to learn that part.

 

In order to do the math, I will need to know a few things:

(1) What is your current dose in mg

(2) How much do your tablets weigh in grams (e.g. 0.17  grams)

(3) What is the strength of each tablet (e.g. 0.5 mg)

(4) How much do you want to reduce per day (e.g. 0.001 mg)

 

I usually make for weeks worth of pills. It’s really handy to have them all premade especially if you’re traveling.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[[Fr...]]

Bob

Do you find this scale better than the Gem-20?

 

Thanks for all your info

[[Bu...]]

Bob,

1. My current dosage is .22.50 mg 1x per day

2. Tablet weights are different but are .171 grams. I am currently using the Gemini 20 scale and was

    going to order another scale today as I want to be fairly accurate. I do like the looks of the one you

    recommended.

3. Tablet strength is .5 mg.

4. I would like to go with the 0.001 mg per day reduction for now.

 

If it is not too much of a problem if you could explain the math part that would be great; hopefully I can wrap my brain around it.

  I would like to start at the current dose I am on as I don't want to go back up to the .25 if I don't have to. I started having more severe Sx when I dropped twice after the .22.50, waited a few days until my heart flipped into a-fib for a few seconds from the palps. I dose corrected back to the .22.50. I can take some of these symptoms (nausea, tinnitus, anxiety) but the heart arrhythmias/A-fib is just too much. I guess the 10%/14 days is too much for me. I thought I could taper faster being I wasn't on the K that long but guess not. I am feeling a bit better today so hopefully I can stabilize soon.

They are out of the cellulose powder on amazon so will look for some elsewhere.

  Thank you so much Bob for helping. Don't know what we would do without people like you!

 

Butter