Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

To try and understand if benzo are staying in the solution, I created a survey.  Watch this link

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=212413.0

 

Bob, I respect your effort at scholarship, but do you seriously believe you are going to dispute a scientifically established fact (which  has been researched  and understood for many years, by taking a survey on a message board?

 

If you will actually study the data that SG has summarized in his graph, it addresses exactly the concept you are questioning.  The curves show exactly how the solubility varies based on the ratio of water to alcohol.

[[...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

Maybe it's because I'm only using a small portion of my V as liquid I'm not noticing it. I also have used liquid tapers to get off of pregabalin and quetiapine successfully in the past few years so it didn't seem a strange or different thing to do.

 

Your experience sounds very strange if you've used liquid before without a problem.

 

Good luck and I hope things resolve themselves for you.

Staz

 

Yeah, you need to go back  to your chem text book and relearn the characterstics of a solution  

 

The ingredients in a suspension can "fall out" but the dissolved ingredients if a solution will remain uniformly distributed for years.

 

This why a solution is superior to a suspension.  This is why pharma mfgrs prefer a solution to a suspension.  This is why my Rx Liquid Diazepam has a 3 year shelf life and NO "shake before using" instruction.

Builder,

No one is questioning the difference between a solution and a suspension.

 

Also, I agree a few mL of 80% alcohol will make a solution with a few milligrams of benzo which will stay in solution for years.

 

The question is if you then add water to that solution are you on the same place on the solubility curve?  It’s an interesting question because by adding 50 mL of water to your original 5 mL of vodka certainly cuts the percentage of alcohol to less than 10%.  Does that keep the benzo in solution?  We’re doing a test in the lab to find out  but if you know the answer I’m all ears.

 

 

[[ga...]]

So the question seems to be, if a benzo dissolves in alcohol but then you add water, will that break the attraction between the alcohol and the benzo. Right?

 

I'm thinking if that were true, you'd have way more people not able to do liquid titration.

 

But maybe it has to do with how much water is added?

 

I'm just thinking outloud here.

 

Also, wondering where is SG's graph?

[[...]]

So the question seems to be, if a benzo dissolves in alcohol but then you add water, will that break the attraction between the alcohol and the benzo. Right?

 

I'm thinking if that were true, you'd have way more people not able to do liquid titration.

 

But maybe it has to do with how much water is added?

 

I'm just thinking outloud here.

 

Also, wondering where is SG's graph?

Thanks Gardie for phrasing it nicely.  Yes that seems to be at the heart of the question.

 

Honestly I’m just trying to help people understand why they fail at liquid taper where other people are so happy with it. I feel bad for them. Something doesn’t add up.  I’m sure these people are doing a good job at making the solution-everyone is trying as hard as they can to beat this Benzo nightmare.

 

I am going back to my classes in engineering and I’m almost willing to concede that as long as the number of grams of alcohol are there then the benzo with stay in solution regardless of the water dilution.  If that is true then one has to ask why you can’t just start by putting a fresh pill directly into a mixture of the alcohol and water / it might just take longer to dissolve but it should still work.

 

I have access to incredible lab equipment and plenty of leftover Klonopin so I’m gonna test this for myself.

 

Here is the link you asked about.  Reply37 of http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

[[Fr...]]

So the question seems to be, if a benzo dissolves in alcohol but then you add water, will that break the attraction between the alcohol and the benzo. Right?

 

I'm thinking if that were true, you'd have way more people not able to do liquid titration.

 

But maybe it has to do with how much water is added?

 

I'm just thinking outloud here.

 

Also, wondering where is SG's graph?

Thanks Gardie for phrasing it nicely.  Yes that seems to be at the heart of the question.

 

Honestly I’m just trying to help people understand why they fail at liquid taper where other people are so happy with it. I feel bad for them. Something doesn’t add up.  I’m sure these people are doing a good job at making the solution-everyone is trying as hard as they can to beat this Benzo nightmare.

 

I am going back to my classes in engineering and I’m almost willing to concede that as long as the number of grams of alcohol are there then the benzo with stay in solution regardless of the water dilution.  If that is true then one has to ask why you can’t just start by putting a fresh pill directly into a mixture of the alcohol and water / it might just take longer to dissolve but it should still work.

 

I have access to incredible lab equipment and plenty of leftover Klonopin so I’m gonna test this for myself.

 

Here is the link you asked about.  Reply37 of http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

Thanks again Bob! You rock.

[[bu...]]

Just an FYI...

 

The Diazepam Intensol Solution is 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol.  Now, that sounds like a lot of alcohol, but lets actually look at the numbers.

 

If it's 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol, that means it's 5mg per .19ml of alcohol. Or in our more common notation 1mg per or .04ml of alcohol!  So that also means that there is 81% "other" liquid, almost all of which is water.  Or again, 1mg of diazepam is dissolved in .04 ml of alcohol, the diluted by a factor of 4:1.

 

And this is a concentrate, it is specifically formulated to be extensively dissolved.  It would have to be diluted 4:1 just to get it to the 1mg=1ml ratio of their companion product, Diazepam Oral Solution, 1mg=1ml.  And that would mean that the initial .19ml alcohol has now been diluted by a factor 16 X times.  And the solution is still  pharmaceutically AND  structurally stable.

[[...]]

Just an FYI...

 

The Diazepam Intensol Solution is 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol.  Now, that sounds like a lot of alcohol, but lets actually look at the numbers.

 

If it's 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol, that means it's 5mg per .19ml of alcohol. Or in our more common notation 1mg per or .04ml of alcohol!  So that also means that there is 81% "other" liquid, almost all of which is water.  Or again, 1mg of diazepam is dissolved in .04 ml of alcohol, the diluted by a factor of 4:1.

 

And this is a concentrate, it is specifically formulated to be extensively dissolved.  It would have to be diluted 4:1 just to get it to the 1mg=1ml ratio of their companion product, Diazepam Oral Solution, 1mg=1ml.  And that would mean that the initial .19ml alcohol has now been diluted by a factor 16 X times.  And the solution is still  pharmaceutically AND  structurally stable.

I think I’ve convinced myself that as long is the number of molecules of alcohol are there then the benzo stays in solution regardless of the water dilution. I’m going to finish my laboratory tests anyway to be sure.

 

But this just puts us back where this conversation started. Why are some of our buddies having difficulties with liquid dilution?  Clearly they are smart people spending time and energy reading and learning and trying to figure this out. So I am confident they’re doing a good job making a solution.

 

There must be a logical technical reason because the withdrawl symptoms are real and potent.

 

[[ci...]]

I still think it has something to do with the amount that gets left in the glass and/or syringes. 

My current dose requires me to use 3 syringes to pull the exact amount.

 

So for .1156mg:

I pull 10ml syringe, then 1.5ml on the 3ml syringe, then .0006ml on the 1ml syringe.

I do squirt these directly into my mouth so as not to have even another surface.

That’s three syringes PLUS the solution jar which EACH have bits of the drug left.  If these are not cleared with water and ingested, the dose is lower than people think.  Every time the liquid touches another surface, you are leaving some of the drug behind.  So if people are measuring with a colander before then that’s another surface.

 

Although somewhat wasteful, I originally made individual jars with .25ml of k, then pulled out the part that I was NOT going to use and threw it away.  Then drank the contents of the jar, swished and drank from the jar 2 more times.  So this has less chance for losing any of the dose.

 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

I still think it has something to do with the amount that gets left in the glass and/or syringes. 

My current dose requires me to use 3 syringes to pull the exact amount.

 

So for .1156mg:

I pull 10ml syringe, then 1.5ml on the 3ml syringe, then .0006ml on the 1ml syringe.

I do squirt these directly into my mouth so as not to have even another surface.

That’s three syringes PLUS the solution jar which EACH have bits of the drug left.  If these are not cleared with water and ingested, the dose is lower than people think.  Every time the liquid touches another surface, you are leaving some of the drug behind.  So if people are measuring with a colander before then that’s another surface.

 

Although somewhat wasteful, I originally made individual jars with .25ml of k, then pulled out the part that I was NOT going to use and threw it away.  Then drank the contents of the jar, swished and drank from the jar 2 more times.  So this has less chance for losing any of the dose.

Now there is a refreshing and interesting idea on the problem. I wonder if we can test it?  I need to noodle on that.

[[bu...]]

Just an FYI...

 

The Diazepam Intensol Solution is 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol.  Now, that sounds like a lot of alcohol, but lets actually look at the numbers.

 

If it's 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol, that means it's 5mg per .19ml of alcohol. Or in our more common notation 1mg per or .04ml of alcohol!  So that also means that there is 81% "other" liquid, almost all of which is water.  Or again, 1mg of diazepam is dissolved in .04 ml of alcohol, the diluted by a factor of 4:1.

 

And this is a concentrate, it is specifically formulated to be extensively dissolved.  It would have to be diluted 4:1 just to get it to the 1mg=1ml ratio of their companion product, Diazepam Oral Solution, 1mg=1ml.  And that would mean that the initial .19ml alcohol has now been diluted by a factor 16 X times.  And the solution is still  pharmaceutically AND  structurally stable.

I think I’ve convinced myself that as long is the number of molecules of alcohol are there then the benzo stays in solution regardless of the water dilution. I’m going to finish my laboratory tests anyway to be sure.

  <sigh> I'm glad! 

 

There must be a logical technical reason because the withdrawl symptoms are real and potent.

or there may be some non-technical reason why it happens on BB, and never happened on BDR! 

[[...]]

Just an FYI...

 

The Diazepam Intensol Solution is 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol.  Now, that sounds like a lot of alcohol, but lets actually look at the numbers.

 

If it's 5mg per ml, and 19% alcohol, that means it's 5mg per .19ml of alcohol. Or in our more common notation 1mg per or .04ml of alcohol!  So that also means that there is 81% "other" liquid, almost all of which is water.  Or again, 1mg of diazepam is dissolved in .04 ml of alcohol, the diluted by a factor of 4:1.

 

And this is a concentrate, it is specifically formulated to be extensively dissolved.  It would have to be diluted 4:1 just to get it to the 1mg=1ml ratio of their companion product, Diazepam Oral Solution, 1mg=1ml.  And that would mean that the initial .19ml alcohol has now been diluted by a factor 16 X times.  And the solution is still  pharmaceutically AND  structurally stable.

I think I’ve convinced myself that as long is the number of molecules of alcohol are there then the benzo stays in solution regardless of the water dilution. I’m going to finish my laboratory tests anyway to be sure.

  <sigh> I'm glad! 

 

There must be a logical technical reason because the withdrawl symptoms are real and potent.

or there may be some non-technical reason why it happens on BB, and never happened on BDR! 

 

What is BDR?

[[bu...]]

Benzo Detox Recovery.  That's the forum I repeatedly refer to where 1) everyone was doing DLMT, and 2) no one ever mentioned any difficulty changing to or using liquid.

[[Ca...]]

Ummmm...

Could it be that the variable is US..??!!

-as with many things Benzo...

-Generic changes, extreme sensitivity, The fact that Benzos themselves can change how other medications can work in different people.... Shit, I cant think today, but im sure you get the picture...

 

The fact is -Some people dont do well transferring to liquid... Simple... Just add a little caution and be aware...

 

The other fact is... -most people do well and liquid is a good tool in the tapering process...

 

 

 

[[Ul...]]

Ummmm...

Could it be that the variable is US..??!!

-as with many things Benzo...

-Generic changes, extreme sensitivity, The fact that Benzos themselves can change how other medications can work in different people.... Shit, I cant think today, but im sure you get the picture...

 

The fact is -Some people dont do well transferring to liquid... Simple... Just add a little caution and be aware...

 

The other fact is... -most people do well and liquid is a good tool in the tapering process...

 

Short and sweet. You got it, Cant. Good to see ya!

 

Jeff

[[Pe...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

Maybe it's because I'm only using a small portion of my V as liquid I'm not noticing it. I also have used liquid tapers to get off of pregabalin and quetiapine successfully in the past few years so it didn't seem a strange or different thing to do.

 

Your experience sounds very strange if you've used liquid before without a problem.

 

Good luck and I hope things resolve themselves for you.

Staz

 

Yeah, you need to go back  to your chem text book and relearn the characterstics of a solution  

 

The ingredients in a suspension can "fall out" but the dissolved ingredients if a solution will remain uniformly distributed for years.

 

This why a solution is superior to a suspension.  This is why pharma mfgrs prefer a solution to a suspension.  This is why my Rx Liquid Diazepam has a 3 year shelf life and NO "shake before using" instruction.

Builder,

No one is questioning the difference between a solution and a suspension.

 

Also, I agree a few mL of 80% alcohol will make a solution with a few milligrams of benzo which will stay in solution for years.

 

The question is if you then add water to that solution are you on the same place on the solubility curve?  It’s an interesting question because by adding 50 mL of water to your original 5 mL of vodka certainly cuts the percentage of alcohol to less than 10%.  Does that keep the benzo in solution?  We’re doing a test in the lab to find out  but if you know the answer I’m all ears.

I want to quote multiple people but don't know how. It's good reading how everyone weighed in with their knowledge and suggestions.

I can now see why the liquid taper didn't work for me plus the fact that I was put on Klinopin over 20 yrs ago. I originally started my liquid taper in another group with completely no guidance.

Had Bob not responded to my original post I don't know where I'd be today. And as I mentioned in a prior response, we are all unique in our backgrounds with these medications and our sensitivity to withdrawal is individualized.

I'm still struggling with symptoms and mediocre sleep but am so looking forward to reaching my halfway point later in November.

Peace 

[[ga...]]

 

I'm still struggling with symptoms and mediocre sleep but am so looking forward to reaching my halfway point later in November.

Peace 

 

Congratulations, Peaceflower!

[[...]]

Yes congratulations Peaceflower.  I write this with a big smile on my face although I am sorry you have the sleep trouble-that seems to be one of the more common and stubborn withdrawl symptoms.

[[Pe...]]

Yes congratulations Peaceflower.  I write this with a big smile on my face although I am sorry you have the sleep trouble-that seems to be one of the more common and stubborn withdrawl symptoms.

 

I'm still struggling with symptoms and mediocre sleep but am so looking forward to reaching my halfway point later in November.

Peace 

 

Congratulations, Peaceflower!

Thank you!!

I've gone 2 yrs with sucky sleep so I know I can keep going. I think the worse mental symptom for me is the obsessive/intrusive thoughts. I can't wait to have my mind back!!

[[Ma...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

Maybe it's because I'm only using a small portion of my V as liquid I'm not noticing it. I also have used liquid tapers to get off of pregabalin and quetiapine successfully in the past few years so it didn't seem a strange or different thing to do.

 

Your experience sounds very strange if you've used liquid before without a problem.

 

Good luck and I hope things resolve themselves for you.

Staz

 

Yeah, you need to go back  to your chem text book and relearn the characterstics of a solution  

 

The ingredients in a suspension can "fall out" but the dissolved ingredients if a solution will remain uniformly distributed for years.

 

This why a solution is superior to a suspension.  This is why pharma mfgrs prefer a solution to a suspension.  This is why my Rx Liquid Diazepam has a 3 year shelf life and NO "shake before using" instruction.

Builder,

No one is questioning the difference between a solution and a suspension.

 

Also, I agree a few mL of 80% alcohol will make a solution with a few milligrams of benzo which will stay in solution for years.

 

The question is if you then add water to that solution are you on the same place on the solubility curve?  It’s an interesting question because by adding 50 mL of water to your original 5 mL of vodka certainly cuts the percentage of alcohol to less than 10%.  Does that keep the benzo in solution?  We’re doing a test in the lab to find out  but if you know the answer I’m all ears.

I want to quote multiple people but don't know how. It's good reading how everyone weighed in with their knowledge and suggestions.

I can now see why the liquid taper didn't work for me plus the fact that I was put on Klinopin over 20 yrs ago. I originally started my liquid taper in another group with completely no guidance.

Had Bob not responded to my original post I don't know where I'd be today. And as I mentioned in a prior response, we are all unique in our backgrounds with these medications and our sensitivity to withdrawal is individualized.

I'm still struggling with symptoms and mediocre sleep but am so looking forward to reaching my halfway point later in November.

Peace 

 

Bob7 is the best, he will study and research to do the best for you he can.  He has so much patience and kindness.  I am thrilled he is with us on bb.  Thanks Bob. .........love Mary❤️💙💜💚💛

[[Sp...]]

Than you for your response. Where do I find the quitting Kratom Forum. Is it on this site? I will look for it but I had no idea Kratom could be that addictive. I would appreciate any other information you might have that would help me.

Robert

[[co...]]

Benzo Detox Recovery.  That's the forum I repeatedly refer to where 1) everyone was doing DLMT, and 2) no one ever mentioned any difficulty changing to or using liquid.

 

Why do you think this is?

 

Do you think that the members here are not following the procedure as wall as those on the other board?  Or maybe there are more people here so it stands to reason there would be more of a chances of having problems surface.

 

Do you think the other board had a different environment where people spoke less about their issues and problems? 

 

Also do you think the environment and posts here has an effect on certain people that makes them more nervous and scared and thus amps their anxiety and makes them have a harder time tapering?

 

I am not trying to criticize anyone or this board--be it any posters, the management, or the environment.

 

I am just curious.  I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or start a debate.

 

This board has saved my life by exposing me to the Ashton Taper method, and then ways of fine tuning the taper go at a much slower rate; and specifically to Builder himself for his info on using liquid Diazepam.

 

thanks

[[bu...]]

Benzo Detox Recovery.  That's the forum I repeatedly refer to where 1) everyone was doing DLMT, and 2) no one ever mentioned any difficulty changing to or using liquid.

 

Why do you think this is?

 

Do you think that the members here are not following the procedure as wall as those on the other board?  Or maybe there are more people here so it stands to reason there would be more of a chances of having problems surface.

Since all members on BDR were doing liquid, there were probably MORE folks doing liquid tapers on BDR.

 

Do you think the other board had a different environment where people spoke less about their issues and problems? 

 

That's absolutely correct.  Most of the discussions were on HOW to taper, and on PROGRESS. There was very little discussion of difficulties or problems.

Also do you think the environment and posts here has an effect on certain people that makes them more nervous and scared and thus amps their anxiety and makes them have a harder time tapering?

 

Absolutely!  I believe the reason no one on BDR talked about problems with liquid is because no one ever posted problems with liquid.  Let's face it.  Folks trying to taper are already, depressed, nervous, anxious, suggestible, etc.  If you tell them they might also experience some additional complication, I guarantee you some of them will conclude that yeah,  they have that problem too.

 

There was a strong "leader) (Jana Hill) at BDR, who told people how to taper, how much to  taper, and that it would work.  So guess what,  members believed her, and it worked.   

 

 

[[in...]]

Am I having an interdose withdrawal? I feel awful. 2mg valium x2 daily. It's not doing much. Is this withdrawal or tolerance, been 10 years since ativan, then valium in 2013. Or is it depression from valium and stressors?

 

Trying to hang on. Don't know what to do. Notice that my pdoc is leaving. I see her Mon. Everything is stress to me. I have late stage lyme.

 

Do I go higher on valium, or try yet again to taper the last 4mg? Will I feel better cutting it? Or worse? Should I go to hospital?

I don't know what's going on. Please pray.

 

Thanks in advance.

Infoshare.

[[bu...]]

If your dosing Valium 2X day, you are NOT having interdose withdrawal.

 

Probably just plain ol' withdrawal.

[[in...]]

Im not cutting. Is this auto withdrawal? And what do i do? Its torture.

 

Infoshare