Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Su...]]

Has anyone had success or same as vodka using propylene glycol in making the brew? I'd try it in a heartbeat, if the theory about

alcohol kindling is the problem. Som use ora blend, not sure what the difference is. But I believe they are water soluble, not alcohol based.

But I'm pretty sure something like PG is used in Rx pharmacy brews. The one I tried many years ago from Point of Return felt like a complet CT

the first day, no cut, just equivalent. Man!

 

Thanks Peacemaker for the info

Infoshare

 

Hi Infoshare,

I had a horrible time when i switched to all liquid for my taper.  I'm one of those.  Don't know if it's time on the meds or what -- 20 years + here.  My measurements were checked, my solution was accurate, my body simply didn't like it!

I went to using liquid for a portion of my dose -- I take most of my dose in pill form and a small amount in liquid.  That way I can get the accuracy of liquid without the hideous (for me) side effects.

It is great to be able to accurately cut such a small amount!  Invaluable actually!

SS

 

[[bu...]]

In the case with benzos, she mentions that the reason alcohol has a kindling effect on benzos is because benzos are alcohol based. This idea makes total sense to me

 

...except that its totally incorrect.  There is no alcohol, or any alcohol derivatives, in benzodiazepines.  They have several similar effects on the nervous system, but they are unrelated chemically.

 

 

Sadly, many folks equate using a tiny amount of alcohol as a solvent with with drinking alcoholic beverages.  They are two totally different concepts.  One vodka highball/cocktail would typically contain about 30-45mls of vodka. One bottle of beer, one glass of wine would contain about the same amount of alcohol.  No one here is suggesting anyone needs anywhere even then equivalent of a single alcoholic beverage to make liquid benzo.

 

Alcohol and PG are the world's most widely used pharma solvents, both for Rx and OTC products.  There are Rx liquid benzos that use an alcohol solvent.

 

You probably ingest more alcohol each day from its natural formation in many food sources and from personal care products than you will from using a few mls of vodka to make s benzo liquid.

 

And you can always PG instead, anyway.

 

 

[Guest [...]]

 

Gardie was it just fine from the beginning or did you need to take some time to adjust?

 

My taper has been complicated. I'll try to explain.

 

I had my Librium prescription written as 5mg capsules. That's the smallest size. So when I started tapering L, my dosing looked something like this.

 

morning: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

evening: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

 

I had just crossed from prescription liquid Xanax to Librium capsules. I was such a complete mess from a too-rapid taper and the crossover, I don't think I would have noticed if the switch did anything. I did notice I was very depressed on Librium, but that is not unusual. I went right to the above schedule and tapered away a capsule to reduce my depression. Then I held for a year at whole capsules.

 

When I started up again. I liquefied just 1 capsule from each dose and held for about 2 weeks. Then I started my micro taper very, very slowly to ease into it. Each time I liquefied another capsule, I held for a week or two to be safe. But I did not notice any big problems. More like just being nervous from the new routine and new figuring. Holding while I adjusted to the new routine helped.

 

Perhaps taking part of my dose as capsules and only dissolving a small part of my dose helped me.

 

One other thought. Dissolving a drug in alcohol is a chemical change. Whether or not that is different from the changes that occur in the stomach system, I don't know.

 

Gardie

Interesting Gardie.

So your tapering L reduced your depression if I'm reading your response correctly? I'm interested as switching from V to L was one option I was considering as I find V very depressing (along with many other BB's).

I think you've probably described what most of us feel when you say 'nervous at the new routine'. It's natural especially when you've been burned badly in the past by changes in drug and or dose.

Dissolving a drug in alcohol doesn't change it. The active metabolites remain unchanged and are carried in the alcohol. It's the same as dissolving sugar in water. In fact I'm sure one of the proprietry V liquids uses a form of alcohol as the solvent and then adds in colouring and flavouring to it. If it did change it all of us using it for a DLMT would be in trouble big time!!! The one change it does have is that it will enter your bloodstream more quickly than the tablet form as it doesn't have to be broken down in the stomach.

Cheers

Staz

[[Bo...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

[[...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

PM me if you want help with math to use your scale.  I am happy to help.

 

[[...]]

I tried to cut and paste in the chart Builder referred us to for discussion.  Reply37 of http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

With all respect - I am not sure the chart is being used correctly.

 

Here is what might be happening to people.

 

Using the chart, to dissolve 5 mg of Clonazepam (for example) in 80 proof Vodka, you would only need 6 mL of Vodka.  HOWEVER,

when you then add water to dilute, your alcohol volume fraction changes.  If you added 60 mL of water for example, your fraction becomes 0.8*6/60 = 0.08 which, as shown on the chart is nearly zero solubility for Clonazepam (or any benzo). 

 

This might be fine if you hurry up and take your dose.  BUT IF YOU LEAVE THE "SOLUTION" TO SIT FOR A WHILE, I think basic chemistry would say the benzo would fall out of solution according to the chart. 

 

If I am right, it might explain why some have troubles.  Only those who drink the solution right away or who stir and shake it EXTREMELY well have anything near a solution (an even distribution of benzo in the liquid).

 

I am going to pull out my chemistry book and explore this more. 

 

QUESTION.  Does anyone have a liquid benzo created by a pharmacy?  If so, can you tell us if the bottle says "Shake well before use".  If so, that is an indication it is not a true solution.  A solution doesn't require shaking to keep the drug dissolved. 

[Guest [...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

Maybe it's because I'm only using a small portion of my V as liquid I'm not noticing it. I also have used liquid tapers to get off of pregabalin and quetiapine successfully in the past few years so it didn't seem a strange or different thing to do.

 

Your experience sounds very strange if you've used liquid before without a problem.

 

Good luck and I hope things resolve themselves for you.

Staz

[Guest [...]]

I tried to cut and paste in the chart Builder referred us to for discussion.  Reply37 of http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

With all respect - I am not sure the chart is being used correctly.

 

Here is what might be happening to people.

 

Using the chart, to dissolve 5 mg of Clonazepam (for example) in 80 proof Vodka, you would only need 6 mL of Vodka.  HOWEVER,

when you then add water to dilute, your alcohol volume fraction changes.  If you added 60 mL of water for example, your fraction becomes 0.8*6/60 = 0.08 which, as shown on the chart is nearly zero solubility for Clonazepam (or any benzo). 

 

This might be fine if you hurry up and take your dose.  BUT IF YOU LEAVE THE "SOLUTION" TO SIT FOR A WHILE, I think basic chemistry would say the benzo would fall out of solution according to the chart. 

 

If I am right, it might explain why some have troubles.  Only those who drink the solution right away or who stir and shake it EXTREMELY well have anything near a solution (an even distribution of benzo in the liquid).

 

I am going to pull out my chemistry book and explore this more. 

 

QUESTION.  Does anyone have a liquid benzo created by a pharmacy?  If so, can you tell us if the bottle says "Shake well before use".  If so, that is an indication it is not a true solution.  A solution doesn't require shaking to keep the drug dissolved. 

I shake mine everytime Bob. Just to stir the grainy fillers up more than anything.

You may have a valid point though with your idea..

Staz

[[bu...]]

 

 

Dissolving a drug in alcohol doesn't change it. The active metabolites remain unchanged and are carried in the alcohol. It's the same as dissolving sugar in water. In fact I'm sure one of the proprietry V liquids uses a form of alcohol as the solvent and then adds in colouring and flavouring to it. If it did change it all of us using it for a DLMT would be in trouble big time!!!

Cheers

Staz

 

:thumbsup:

 

All correct!

 

The one change it does have is that it will enter your bloodstream more quickly than the tablet form as it doesn't have to be broken down in the stomach.

 

No, not really.  When you swallow a tablet, it becomes liquid within seconds of getting to the stomach.  If there is any difference , its only a matter of seconds.

[[...]]

I tried to cut and paste in the chart Builder referred us to for discussion.  Reply37 of http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

With all respect - I am not sure the chart is being used correctly.

 

Here is what might be happening to people.

 

Using the chart, to dissolve 5 mg of Clonazepam (for example) in 80 proof Vodka, you would only need 6 mL of Vodka.  HOWEVER,

when you then add water to dilute, your alcohol volume fraction changes.  If you added 60 mL of water for example, your fraction becomes 0.8*6/60 = 0.08 which, as shown on the chart is nearly zero solubility for Clonazepam (or any benzo). 

 

This might be fine if you hurry up and take your dose.  BUT IF YOU LEAVE THE "SOLUTION" TO SIT FOR A WHILE, I think basic chemistry would say the benzo would fall out of solution according to the chart. 

 

If I am right, it might explain why some have troubles.  Only those who drink the solution right away or who stir and shake it EXTREMELY well have anything near a solution (an even distribution of benzo in the liquid).

 

I am going to pull out my chemistry book and explore this more. 

 

QUESTION.  Does anyone have a liquid benzo created by a pharmacy?  If so, can you tell us if the bottle says "Shake well before use".  If so, that is an indication it is not a true solution.  A solution doesn't require shaking to keep the drug dissolved. 

Another question for those using liquid benzo from a pharmacy.  It is a concentrated liquid?  That is, are you suppose to mix what the pharmacy gives you with water and then shake or stir well?

[[Ul...]]

I'm the most sensitive being on this entire planet, and I took a high dose of klonpin for 21+ years before starting my taper. Changing to liquid was something I did over a chunk of time (I think that was key). I dose 3x/day so I made my first dose as a liquid and then took the next two dry. After a week or two I switched and made the first two doses liquid and the third one dry, etc. etc. until I was at full liquid. I only used 2.5mL of 100 proof vodka to dissolve a 1mg k tablet. Today, I get several days doses out of a 1mg tablet and just use that 2.5mL of vodka to dissolve it. But, every single body walking around out there is different, so who knows what's "best" for all. I say, research, listen to your gut feeling, and then run with it, and then do everything you can to forget about it each day (really important). It's slow, and I still have a long way to go, but the slowness has mainly been do to my over-the-top sensitivity as well as fun life events like multiple surgeries on my back, two hurricane evacuations, spouse's cancer, a botched colonoscopy, a financial beating and loss of jobs, and a partridge in a pear tree, yada, yada, yada. Next, baby!!!!!

 

Good luck to all!

 

Jeff

 

P.S. I love you, Miss Gard-Meister  

[[in...]]

Has anyone had success or same as vodka using propylene glycol in making the brew? I'd try it in a heartbeat, if the theory about

alcohol kindling is the problem. Som use ora blend, not sure what the difference is. But I believe they are water soluble, not alcohol based.

But I'm pretty sure something like PG is used in Rx pharmacy brews. The one I tried many years ago from Point of Return felt like a complet CT

the first day, no cut, just equivalent. Man!

 

Thanks Peacemaker for the info

Infoshare

 

 

Hi Infoshare,

I had a horrible time when i switched to all liquid for my taper.  I'm one of those.  Don't know if it's time on the meds or what -- 20 years + here.  My measurements were checked, my solution was accurate, my body simply didn't like it!

I went to using liquid for a portion of my dose -- I take most of my dose in pill form and a small amount in liquid.  That way I can get the accuracy of liquid without the hideous (for me) side effects.

It is great to be able to accurately cut such a small amount!  Invaluable actually!

SS

Hi SS. How much of tablet are you cutting or using to dissolve, 1/2mg, 1mg, less...?

Infoshare.

[[in...]]

I had bad trouble, feeling like a cold turkey cut or close to it, without taking Any Cut at all. My first step was to convert to liquid and hold for a couple weeks.

I followed builder math and had much pratctice(the method worked perfectly for my low dose of mirtazapine).

 

I rinsed out my jar after swallowing it. I rinsed syringe but not into my jar. Would that be a big enough cause? I don't think so. I would love it to be though.

 

All of Sep I dissolved my 2mg Valium tablet in 40ml vodka/ added 60ml water for a 100% solution. Verified with my kitchen scale.

After a few days it started to feel worse and worse, but I kept going. I could never go more than 5 days. Chest pain, fear, dread, doom feeling. Bad.

Took a break tried again and again.

 

Then first part of Oct tried milk titration with rinsing. It takes a least several hours for tablets to start to dissolve in fat whole milk. So left it overnight. Measured and about day 5 was too rough to continue. Again no cutting. Just equivalent conversion.

 

These sincere efforts failed and has set my nerves back quite a bit.  Anytime I've tried a Rx liquid form, prepared, same thing happened, actually faster.

 

Infoshare.

s

 

Hi,

 

I am assuming you put 20mg of valium to the 40ml of vodka? 60ml of water sounds like to little. Shouldnt it be 140ml of water to get 200ml solution?

I only made a 100ml solution. I forget my numbers now. But bulder math guided me. The theory that there would be no change physically noticeable, but there was.

 

[[in...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

I thought Jim Hawks post indicated there was a lot of trouble switching to liquid.

Infoshare

[[in...]]

So then how about PG or Orablend? I understand Orablend is a suspension liquid. So would that keep it together more like a tablet?

Does Orablend break up the tablet to a liquified state? Does PG dissolve it more like vodka? All new to me.

 

Ty for any info

Infoshare

[Guest [...]]

 

 

Dissolving a drug in alcohol doesn't change it. The active metabolites remain unchanged and are carried in the alcohol. It's the same as dissolving sugar in water. In fact I'm sure one of the proprietry V liquids uses a form of alcohol as the solvent and then adds in colouring and flavouring to it. If it did change it all of us using it for a DLMT would be in trouble big time!!!

Cheers

Staz

 

:thumbsup:

 

All correct!

 

The one change it does have is that it will enter your bloodstream more quickly than the tablet form as it doesn't have to be broken down in the stomach.

 

No, not really.  When you swallow a tablet, it becomes liquid within seconds of getting to the stomach.  If there is any difference , its only a matter of seconds.

Yep it's marginal at best if the tablets dissolve in the stomach as quickly as they do in vodka.

[[...]]

After reading hundreds of posts, I’m beginning to wonder if liquid taper methods only work well for those people who have not been on benzos for extended periods.  It seems like people who are on Benzos for a decade seem to need a very repeatable and reliable and micro daily reduction to be stable.

 

That's exactly what a liquid taper allows you to do.

I agree with you that theoretically liquid taper should do that but I keep reading posts where people  using a liquid taper seem to have very unstable withdrawl symptoms. So I have to wonder if the drug stays in solution uniformly like we all assume it does.  I’ve not seen a research study on this where laboratory measurements are made on the solution. Perhaps the variance is too hard on people who have been on benzos for a decade or more.

 

My experience has been very good doing a daily liquid micro taper. I remember someone, maybe Jim Hawk, doing a questionnaire about changing to liquid. Most people who changed had little to no trouble doing the switch.

 

When I see problems with liquids, I often wonder if perhaps we are not giving clear enough directions or perhaps people are not being careful enough when they switch to liquid. There are a lot of ways to make mistakes. If a person is very unstable and has no one to help them, it would be easy to make mistakes.

 

Potential mistakes I wonder about:

Are they getting the bubbles out?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a syringe?

Do they know how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder?

Do they rinse and drink the rinse liquid to make sure they haven't left benzo behind?

Is milk really that reliable a solvent?

And what about the tendency of fats to cling to plastics? (Another reason I'm suspicious of milk and why I use 80 proof vodka.)

 

Another thought, the people who are having problems are going to be the ones posting and asking questions. The hundreds I expect are are doing just fine will not be rattling the boards.

 

Regarding dry measuring with scales, there are a lot of potential problems with that, too. A chemistry professor told me her students had a hard time getting an accurate measurement even using her lab's $10,000 scale. A breeze, a bump, humidity all affected measurements. She doubted the amazon scales were consistently accurate enough for small cuts. She recommended I go with a solution and helped me make sure I was getting all the details right.

 

I am very careful to measure accurately and I have a stable solution that has been working just fine for me.

 

Hope someone finds that helpful.

 

Gardie

I thought Jim Hawks post indicated there was a lot of trouble switching to liquid.

Infoshare

I too read lots of unexpected troubles, even when holding using a liquid. 

I wonder if there is a core misunderstanding.  I agree the benzo will dissolve in 80% alcohol but once the water is added, it is no longer 80% alcohol and so it would seem the benzo would come out of solution and form a suspension, which is not uniform and would cause troubles depending on how a dose is taken.  On Friday, I hope to speak to a chemist at work to clear this up.

[[ga...]]

 

Gardie was it just fine from the beginning or did you need to take some time to adjust?

 

My taper has been complicated. I'll try to explain.

 

I had my Librium prescription written as 5mg capsules. That's the smallest size. So when I started tapering L, my dosing looked something like this.

 

morning: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

evening: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

 

I had just crossed from prescription liquid Xanax to Librium capsules. I was such a complete mess from a too-rapid taper and the crossover, I don't think I would have noticed if the switch did anything. I did notice I was very depressed on Librium, but that is not unusual. I went right to the above schedule and tapered away a capsule to reduce my depression. Then I held for a year at whole capsules.

 

When I started up again. I liquefied just 1 capsule from each dose and held for about 2 weeks. Then I started my micro taper very, very slowly to ease into it. Each time I liquefied another capsule, I held for a week or two to be safe. But I did not notice any big problems. More like just being nervous from the new routine and new figuring. Holding while I adjusted to the new routine helped.

 

Perhaps taking part of my dose as capsules and only dissolving a small part of my dose helped me.

 

One other thought. Dissolving a drug in alcohol is a chemical change. Whether or not that is different from the changes that occur in the stomach system, I don't know.

 

Gardie

Interesting Gardie.

So your tapering L reduced your depression if I'm reading your response correctly? I'm interested as switching from V to L was one option I was considering as I find V very depressing (along with many other BB's).

I think you've probably described what most of us feel when you say 'nervous at the new routine'. It's natural especially when you've been burned badly in the past by changes in drug and or dose.

Dissolving a drug in alcohol doesn't change it. The active metabolites remain unchanged and are carried in the alcohol. It's the same as dissolving sugar in water. In fact I'm sure one of the proprietry V liquids uses a form of alcohol as the solvent and then adds in colouring and flavouring to it. If it did change it all of us using it for a DLMT would be in trouble big time!!! The one change it does have is that it will enter your bloodstream more quickly than the tablet form as it doesn't have to be broken down in the stomach.

Cheers

Staz

 

Yes, I found Librium depressing and felt better on a lower dose. Librium and Valium are very similar drugs. Librium is a nuisance to taper because it only comes in capsules and because it is not stable in an aqueous solution. I mix my dose fresh every day. I have info on that on my p-log (which I can't seem to locate at the moment ).

 

I guess I don't know how to explain how the benzo is different when it is dissolved. Maybe chemical isn't the right term. It's just different than suspending it. It has become a liquid rather than being suspended in the liquid. But I expect (don't know) the benzo is also dissolved in the stomach. So it's a mystery to me why a person would react differently, though obviously people do. Maybe it has to do with ph. A pharmacist told me that the ph of the stomach is different than the ph of the, um, whatever the stomach empties into, and that could affect the absorption of the drug.

[[...]]

 

Gardie was it just fine from the beginning or did you need to take some time to adjust?

 

My taper has been complicated. I'll try to explain.

 

I had my Librium prescription written as 5mg capsules. That's the smallest size. So when I started tapering L, my dosing looked something like this.

 

morning: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

evening: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

 

I had just crossed from prescription liquid Xanax to Librium capsules. I was such a complete mess from a too-rapid taper and the crossover, I don't think I would have noticed if the switch did anything. I did notice I was very depressed on Librium, but that is not unusual. I went right to the above schedule and tapered away a capsule to reduce my depression. Then I held for a year at whole capsules.

 

When I started up again. I liquefied just 1 capsule from each dose and held for about 2 weeks. Then I started my micro taper very, very slowly to ease into it. Each time I liquefied another capsule, I held for a week or two to be safe. But I did not notice any big problems. More like just being nervous from the new routine and new figuring. Holding while I adjusted to the new routine helped.

 

Perhaps taking part of my dose as capsules and only dissolving a small part of my dose helped me.

 

One other thought. Dissolving a drug in alcohol is a chemical change. Whether or not that is different from the changes that occur in the stomach system, I don't know.

 

Gardie

Interesting Gardie.

So your tapering L reduced your depression if I'm reading your response correctly? I'm interested as switching from V to L was one option I was considering as I find V very depressing (along with many other BB's).

I think you've probably described what most of us feel when you say 'nervous at the new routine'. It's natural especially when you've been burned badly in the past by changes in drug and or dose.

Dissolving a drug in alcohol doesn't change it. The active metabolites remain unchanged and are carried in the alcohol. It's the same as dissolving sugar in water. In fact I'm sure one of the proprietry V liquids uses a form of alcohol as the solvent and then adds in colouring and flavouring to it. If it did change it all of us using it for a DLMT would be in trouble big time!!! The one change it does have is that it will enter your bloodstream more quickly than the tablet form as it doesn't have to be broken down in the stomach.

Cheers

Staz

 

Yes, I found Librium depressing and felt better on a lower dose. Librium and Valium are very similar drugs. Librium is a nuisance to taper because it only comes in capsules and because it is not stable in an aqueous solution. I mix my dose fresh every day. I have info on that on my p-log (which I can't seem to locate at the moment ).

Group - I find it real interesting - Gardie mixes the dose fresh every day - so less chance the benzo falls out of solution. 

[[ga...]]

 

Group - I find it real interesting - Gardie mixes the dose fresh every day - so less chance the benzo falls out of solution.

 

Yes, I have to because Librium is not stable in an aqueous solution. If I could find my p-log, I could find the study on that. One of my worst benzo issues is cog fog. Started within a week of my first dose. 

 

Valium was created as an "improvement" on Librium, which was the original benzo. Valium is stable in an aqueous solution and is stronger. It has many of the same active metabolites as Librium so it has very similar effects. But it hits you faster than Librium does.

 

It is possible but I think unlikely that the benzo is precipitating out of solution. A chemist once gave me examples of what might cause that but I didn't understand. I always shake up my solution before I draw from it anyway just because I'm paranoid. I shake up and down to make sure I don't create a vortex and then pull quickly.

 

BTW, someone mentioned seeing particles on the bottom. Those are likely the fillers and binders that have not dissolved. But they do make me nervous! But I keep tapering anyway. I think one thing that has helped me a lot is acknowledging and accepting that I'm nervous rather than fighting it and then just moving forward toward my goal.

[[...]]

To try and understand if benzo are staying in the solution, I created a survey.  Watch this link

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=212413.0

 

 

[Guest [...]]

 

Gardie was it just fine from the beginning or did you need to take some time to adjust?

 

My taper has been complicated. I'll try to explain.

 

I had my Librium prescription written as 5mg capsules. That's the smallest size. So when I started tapering L, my dosing looked something like this.

 

morning: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

evening: 3 whole capsules plus 1 dissolved capsule

 

I had just crossed from prescription liquid Xanax to Librium capsules. I was such a complete mess from a too-rapid taper and the crossover, I don't think I would have noticed if the switch did anything. I did notice I was very depressed on Librium, but that is not unusual. I went right to the above schedule and tapered away a capsule to reduce my depression. Then I held for a year at whole capsules.

 

When I started up again. I liquefied just 1 capsule from each dose and held for about 2 weeks. Then I started my micro taper very, very slowly to ease into it. Each time I liquefied another capsule, I held for a week or two to be safe. But I did not notice any big problems. More like just being nervous from the new routine and new figuring. Holding while I adjusted to the new routine helped.

 

Perhaps taking part of my dose as capsules and only dissolving a small part of my dose helped me.

 

One other thought. Dissolving a drug in alcohol is a chemical change. Whether or not that is different from the changes that occur in the stomach system, I don't know.

 

Gardie

Interesting Gardie.

So your tapering L reduced your depression if I'm reading your response correctly? I'm interested as switching from V to L was one option I was considering as I find V very depressing (along with many other BB's).

I think you've probably described what most of us feel when you say 'nervous at the new routine'. It's natural especially when you've been burned badly in the past by changes in drug and or dose.

Dissolving a drug in alcohol doesn't change it. The active metabolites remain unchanged and are carried in the alcohol. It's the same as dissolving sugar in water. In fact I'm sure one of the proprietry V liquids uses a form of alcohol as the solvent and then adds in colouring and flavouring to it. If it did change it all of us using it for a DLMT would be in trouble big time!!! The one change it does have is that it will enter your bloodstream more quickly than the tablet form as it doesn't have to be broken down in the stomach.

Cheers

Staz

 

Yes, I found Librium depressing and felt better on a lower dose. Librium and Valium are very similar drugs. Librium is a nuisance to taper because it only comes in capsules and because it is not stable in an aqueous solution. I mix my dose fresh every day. I have info on that on my p-log (which I can't seem to locate at the moment ).

 

I guess I don't know how to explain how the benzo is different when it is dissolved. Maybe chemical isn't the right term. It's just different than suspending it. It has become a liquid rather than being suspended in the liquid. But I expect (don't know) the benzo is also dissolved in the stomach. So it's a mystery to me why a person would react differently, though obviously people do. Maybe it has to do with ph. A pharmacist told me that the ph of the stomach is different than the ph of the, um, whatever the stomach empties into, and that could affect the absorption of the drug.

I didn't realise it wasn't stable in water so that must be a pain. I can do 7 days worth of V solution in one go and as long as it's in a dark bottle and kept cool it doesn't seem to deteriorate. I do use boiled water as a precaution though

 

Some drugs do dissolve further down the digestive tract although V dissolves quickly. If L is in a gelatine capsule I wonder if it breaks down more slowly and is therefore released in the small intestine rather than the stomach? Could it be the type of benzo that makes a difference as wall as its form?

 

I'm finding V very depressing and some BB's recently have switched to L and found it less so. It was something I was considering as a tactic to improve my depression. I'm struggling even with a slow DLMT but keeping going in the hope that the depression lifts as the dose reduces as it did for you. I've only managed to drop 0.5mg in October. I'm hoping to get down another 0.5mg in November then give things a rest in December.

 

Thanks for answering my query.

Cheers

Staz

[[bu...]]

 

QUESTION.  Does anyone have a liquid benzo created by a pharmacy?  If so, can you tell us if the bottle says "Shake well before use".  If so, that is an indication it is not a true solution.  A solution doesn't require shaking to keep the drug dissolved. 

Another question for those using liquid benzo from a pharmacy.  It is a concentrated liquid?  That is, are you suppose to mix what the pharmacy gives you with water and then shake or stir well?

 

 

In the US there are 4 Rx liquid benzo solutions.  They vary in strength from 5mg per ml to 1mg per ml.*  They are all aqueous solutions, which means they can be diluted with water,and the dilute solution will also be uniformly distributed.  All 4 use either alcohol or PG as a solvent.

 

When you dilute a liquid solution, stir it once to insure blending.  After that, no further agitation is really needed.  (But like many others, I usually gave mine a quick swish each time.  Not needed, but it can't do any harm. )

 

Rx Diazepam Oral (1mg=1ml, PG solvent) has a  mfgr's  recommended shelf life of 3 years from date of mfg.  (and I continued to use my last batch beyond the 3 year date of mfg with no loss of efficacy)  There is NOT any "shake before using" instruction on the container, but there is a "dilute before using..." instruction.

 

*In the UK, there is a Rx diazepam liquid 2mg=5ml, which converts to .4mg per ml.

[[Su...]]

Has anyone had success or same as vodka using propylene glycol in making the brew? I'd try it in a heartbeat, if the theory about

alcohol kindling is the problem. Som use ora blend, not sure what the difference is. But I believe they are water soluble, not alcohol based.

But I'm pretty sure something like PG is used in Rx pharmacy brews. The one I tried many years ago from Point of Return felt like a complet CT

the first day, no cut, just equivalent. Man!

 

Thanks Peacemaker for the info

Infoshare

 

 

Hi Infoshare,

I had a horrible time when i switched to all liquid for my taper.  I'm one of those.  Don't know if it's time on the meds or what -- 20 years + here.  My measurements were checked, my solution was accurate, my body simply didn't like it!

I went to using liquid for a portion of my dose -- I take most of my dose in pill form and a small amount in liquid.  That way I can get the accuracy of liquid without the hideous (for me) side effects.

It is great to be able to accurately cut such a small amount!  Invaluable actually!

SS

Hi SS. How much of tablet are you cutting or using to dissolve, 1/2mg, 1mg, less...?

Infoshare.

 

I use a very dilute solution of Xanax as I need to taper so slowly.  I mix .5mg in 5mg of tequila, add 95 ml of water and take about 9ml a night.  (I can only drop .06ml of this solution every two days.)

I also take .125 mg of Xanax in pill form at night.  and valium during the day for interdose w/d.

It's slow!  But it works for me.

SS

[[bu...]]

Alright,

 

I am skipping the liquid taper, at least half of it... felt ok today and when I got back from the gym at around 1330; i took my first dose of 2ml straight shot from the syringe and about an hour later I felt the CT sides. not sure what is going on as I have taking liquid rx diazepam in the past with no problem.

 

Since I already put 15 pills to make the solution few days ago; I will use it as a night time dose and take my 2 mg tablet  during the day. till i figure out how

 

to do a dry cut taper. I have a scale, but not sure how  measure these cuts cause the scale is in grams and other measurements

 

I rather have the withdrawals from my normal tablet dose then the liquid withdrawals. 

Maybe it's because I'm only using a small portion of my V as liquid I'm not noticing it. I also have used liquid tapers to get off of pregabalin and quetiapine successfully in the past few years so it didn't seem a strange or different thing to do.

 

Your experience sounds very strange if you've used liquid before without a problem.

 

Good luck and I hope things resolve themselves for you.

Staz

 

Yeah, you need to go back  to your chem text book and relearn the characterstics of a solution  

 

The ingredients in a suspension can "fall out" but the dissolved ingredients if a solution will remain uniformly distributed for years.

 

This why a solution is superior to a suspension.  This is why pharma mfgrs prefer a solution to a suspension.  This is why my Rx Liquid Diazepam has a 3 year shelf life and NO "shake before using" instruction.