Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Am I having an interdose withdrawal? I feel awful. 2mg valium x2 daily. It's not doing much. Is this withdrawal or tolerance, been 10 years since ativan, then valium in 2013. Or is it depression from valium and stressors?

 

Trying to hang on. Don't know what to do. Notice that my pdoc is leaving. I see her Mon. Everything is stress to me. I have late stage lyme.

 

Do I go higher on valium, or try yet again to taper the last 4mg? Will I feel better cutting it? Or worse? Should I go to hospital?

I don't know what's going on. Please pray.

 

Thanks in advance.

Infoshare.

I did pray for you.

Prayers are good.

Important questions:

(1) How many weeks ago were you last stable?

(2) What was your dose of Valium at that time.

(3) What other pills were you taking including any alcohol.

(4) Since that last stable point, how did you taper Valium to reach today?

[[in...]]

Thanks Bob I've been at 4 mg total for over a year I had backtracked after tapering from 6 mg down to one and I had to go backup because it was just too much so there I am and just steadily it has been getting worse so can the years in months and now days I am unable asleep that's just really awful I'm scared petrified and I need some hospital help but I'm scared about to I don't drink alcohol and in September I did those vodka liquid take her efforts that all failed not seem to Ghana set things off even water services little bit more stable before that at least far as some some functioning.

[[...]]

It would seem to be a good idea to get stable on a dose. Find a dose were your withdrawl symptoms are tolerable.  Once you are stable at a specific dose for a 4 weeks then start a slow taper plan.

I think you must’ve had a spell check error in your last message because I couldn’t tell if you were saying you did a liquid taper with alcohol or not? 

[[in...]]

Sorry I'm using voice speech.  All through September I tried the liquid taper wiht the vodka home brew.  All that kindling on top of other previous to kindlings you seems to have made me nervous system really bad.  I have to go to 6 mg I don't know whether that will make much difference But I'll have to give it a try because currently it is very rough.  How also have to work with the doctor and finding a new doctor is willing to prescribe that higher dose I'm allowed to take 32 mg every day but I is a have the understanding minutes only every once in a while which I haven't even done that until last night.  Does the Ashton manual talk about doses lower than 5 mg as being just withdrawal States if you stay on them because they are so low.?

I also have concerns and wonder given my Lyme disease which is very nervous system and neurological whether I should just plan on staying on a higher dose of Valium or something crying as I say this I really don't know what to do cause I don't know what's underneath the Valium within my old anxiety and panic  From Lyme disease is still there or what

 

[[...]]

Sorry I'm using voice speech.  All through September I tried the liquid taper wiht the vodka home brew.  All that kindling on top of other previous to kindlings you seems to have made me nervous system really bad.  I have to go to 6 mg I don't know whether that will make much difference But I'll have to give it a try because currently it is very rough.  How also have to work with the doctor and finding a new doctor is willing to prescribe that higher dose I'm allowed to take 32 mg every day but I is a have the understanding minutes only every once in a while which I haven't even done that until last night.  Does the Ashton manual talk about doses lower than 5 mg as being just withdrawal States if you stay on them because they are so low.?

Ashton manual is large so I may have missed such a statement but I have heard some say that low doses seem to maintain a state of withdrawal.  Hence, it makes sense to get stable and then SLOWLY taper to zero.

You said you did do some vodka liquid tapering but it couldn't maintain it because the symptoms were too difficult.

I don't know how much vodka you were using to make your liquid taper but for a few of us, even 2 mL of 80% Vodka is like drinking 1/10 of a beer.  I am too sensitive to alcohol to do that each day.  So I did an dry cut all the way to zero.

Once you are at a stable dose for a few weeks, you could try dry tapers or liquid without alcohol in them.  I prefer the dry taper because most liquid tapers without alcohol become a suspension instead of a solution and might be hard to get a reliable daily dose.

[[in...]]

I'm very nervous about getting my current doctor who has actually leaving at the end of the year and whoever all fine as a replacement a real hardship to be able to support main with if it's 6 mg maybe he'll have to be 8 I don't know I've always did better on things above 6 it seems like certainly for. I feel so just so attacked like the world is against me but thank you for your input and your help I did liquid vodka taper on murtaza bein a low dose and had no problem with it can you  Out of course the Valium vodka was very difficult and there was no cut either.  Is it possible to do a liquid with just water is that we're talking about are you talking about one of those suspension agents I highly doubt if I would tolerate that either seems like the liquid just goes right through me. And I just got notice from Humana that only 30 counts per month diazepam are allowed that's all I ever Got but they seem to be getting stricter.  My P doc had just written a 90 day count which I haven't filled yet I think in anticipation that she was leaving. Thanks for your support and Bob I really appreciate it in the information I just really want and we'll get through this but it's really taking my soul out on me the really frightening to be this dysfunction on top of my non low lyne function.  Yeah I don't know how well do with slow taper

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Well if you don't have any problem with a little Vodka to make your solution, then that is best.  Most benzos need the alcohol to create a solution.  For those benzos, if you just use water, you will get a suspension which I think would make it hard to get repeatable results.

I needed to avoid alcohol so I crushed my Klonopin into a powder and measured my daily doses into empty gel capsules.  When my doses got too hard to weigh (got too small), I added a dry filler material to give it more weight so my scale would still serve me.  But that is a whole other story.  If you can create a liquid withdrawal with alcohol and the alcohol is no problem for you, that is a very good and time tested way to taper.

 

[[in...]]

Hi Bob.

Im one of those the vodka home brew goes right thru my system a big drop off. I was excited at first thinking it was working but a few days in it was a diff. story. So dissappointing. I rinsed the dose jar once and drank. I did not rinse the syringe. Would that make the difference of feeling like you CT?

[[...]]

Hi Bob.

Im one of those the vodka home brew goes right thru my system a big drop off. I was excited at first thinking it was working but a few days in it was a diff. story. So dissappointing. I rinsed the dose jar once and drank. I did not rinse the syringe. Would that make the difference of feeling like you CT?

I can’t imagine a little bit left in the syringe walls would make that big a difference.  It’s strange, according to builder a lot of people have great luck with liquid tapers and then there’s some of us who can’t deal with it for one reason or another.

[[bu...]]

For folks who who prefer to avoid any alcohol, propylene glycol works just as well.

[[...]]

For folks who who prefer to avoid any alcohol, propylene glycol works just as well.

So is there a negative story or reason not to just start with propylene glycol?  I’m just wondering why that isn’t the first thing people recommend to me-I was always told to use 80 proof vodka which I just couldn’t do due to my health. 

[[bu...]]

For folks who who prefer to avoid any alcohol, propylene glycol works just as well.

So is there a negative story or reason not to just start with propylene glycol?  I’m just wondering why that isn’t the first thing people recommend to me-I was always told to use 80 proof vodka which I just couldn’t do due to my health.

 

PG is the solvent used in 3 of the 4 Rx benzo liquids mgfd in the US.  Overall, PG is even a more widely used pharma solvent than alcohol.  Its used in hundreds of OTC pharma products, common food items, personal care products (toothpaste, shampoo, lotions, etc)

 

I think most folks gravitate to vodka because they are familiar with it, and can run down to corner liquor store to pick it up.  (Lots of folks on BB comment that they already have a bottle on hand.)

 

Some major pharmacies will have it available, but most folks order it from Amazon.

[[in...]]

HI.  have we figured out if the patron who posted about making a fresh singular batch every day had luck with her liquid paper if that's something that is repeatable by others my 1st batches were just one tablet and they were usually pretty good then I immediately went to making batches which were not so good.

Info share

[[in...]]

The good news is my Homeopath says the odd feelings I'm having is the remedy causing die-off etc.

So that gives me some hope and understanding.

 

Infoshare.

[[Fr...]]

Am I having an interdose withdrawal? I feel awful. 2mg valium x2 daily. It's not doing much. Is this withdrawal or tolerance, been 10 years since ativan, then valium in 2013. Or is it depression from valium and stressors?

 

Trying to hang on. Don't know what to do. Notice that my pdoc is leaving. I see her Mon. Everything is stress to me. I have late stage lyme.

 

Do I go higher on valium, or try yet again to taper the last 4mg? Will I feel better cutting it? Or worse? Should I go to hospital?

I don't know what's going on. Please pray.

 

Thanks in advance.

Infoshare.

 

Praying for you.

[[Fr...]]

The good news is my Homeopath says the odd feelings I'm having is the remedy causing die-off etc.

So that gives me some hope and understanding.

 

Infoshare.

Are you taking homeopathic remedies during your taper? I was on a lyme Protocol and had to stop it until I got off the benzo. Trying to detox from Lyme was to much with an already stressed out system from withdrawal.

 

Were you diagnosed with Lyme pre benzo use?

[[ga...]]

HI.  have we figured out if the patron who posted about making a fresh singular batch every day had luck with her liquid paper if that's something that is repeatable by others my 1st batches were just one tablet and they were usually pretty good then I immediately went to making batches which were not so good.

Info share

 

Hi. I am the one who makes a fresh batch every evening at supper time. Actually, I make 2 separate batches because I dose twice/day. For each dose, I dissolve one whole capsule (my script is written entirely in 5mg capsules, the smallest capsule available) in a little alcohol in a small jar that has a tight lid. I add the water to make 100ml in each jar and shake it up and down a few times. Then I remove part of the liquid and pitch it out. What remains is my dose. I drink one jar at 9PM, fill with water, shake it up and again, and drink the rinse liquid. At 9AM I do the same with the other jar. I dry out the jars so they don't get icky. Each evening I pull and pitch a little more and drink the rest. I've been doing this for years. It gets very tiresome. But, if nothing else works, it's worth a try.

 

I only do this because I am on Librium which has been shown to be unstable in an aqueous solution. (It breaks down into its metabolites, which are also benzos, but different benzos.) When I was on Xanax, I used a pharmaceutical liquid that I diluted. I would make a whole week's worth at a time.

 

One thing I do to make this all more tolerable is I have a cupboard in my kitchen that has nothing but tapering supplies in it. I never open it unless I am getting out my supplies. When I am done setting up my 2 doses, I put it all away out of sight. It really helps to spend as little time as possible thinking about the taper.

 

Gardie

[[in...]]

The good news is my Homeopath says the odd feelings I'm having is the remedy causing die-off etc.

So that gives me some hope and understanding.

 

Infoshare.

Are you taking homeopathic remedies during your taper? I was on a lyme Protocol and had to stop it until I got off the benzo. Trying to detox from Lyme was to much with an already stressed out system from withdrawal.

 

Were you diagnosed with Lyme pre benzo use?

Yes. The Lyme Dx cam shortly after the benzo start, sadly.

Yes your'e right. I probably did stop when I was actually tapering. I tapered the bulk of it in 2013...15.

But  a good reminder. I would love to find a way/reason why I have trouble with liquid taper efforts.

Have you noticed improvements in your Lyme?

 

And Gardie I'm glad you have a good system that'w working for you. I need one soon. Hopefully I'll stabilize more. So many stressors this year and just recently.

But I'll get it.

Infoshare.

[[Fr...]]

HI.  have we figured out if the patron who posted about making a fresh singular batch every day had luck with her liquid paper if that's something that is repeatable by others my 1st batches were just one tablet and they were usually pretty good then I immediately went to making batches which were not so good.

Info share

 

Hi. I am the one who makes a fresh batch every evening at supper time. Actually, I make 2 separate batches because I dose twice/day. For each dose, I dissolve one whole capsule (my script is written entirely in 5mg capsules, the smallest capsule available) in a little alcohol in a small jar that has a tight lid. I add the water to make 100ml in each jar and shake it up and down a few times. Then I remove part of the liquid and pitch it out. What remains is my dose. I drink one jar at 9PM, fill with water, shake it up and again, and drink the rinse liquid. At 9AM I do the same with the other jar. I dry out the jars so they don't get icky. Each evening I pull and pitch a little more and drink the rest. I've been doing this for years. It gets very tiresome. But, if nothing else works, it's worth a try.

 

I only do this because I am on Librium which has been shown to be unstable in an aqueous solution. (It breaks down into its metabolites, which are also benzos, but different benzos.) When I was on Xanax, I used a pharmaceutical liquid that I diluted. I would make a whole week's worth at a time.

 

One thing I do to make this all more tolerable is I have a cupboard in my kitchen that has nothing but tapering supplies in it. I never open it unless I am getting out my supplies. When I am done setting up my 2 doses, I put it all away out of sight. It really helps to spend as little time as possible thinking about the taper.

 

Gardie

 

This seems like it could really work for me. I may have to try it. My prescription of Librium is in all 5mg pills as well. So you only dissolve one 5mg capsule in wayer  and take the rest of dose In capsules? Forgive me I don’t know what an aqueous solution is perhaps I need to read more into that. Is the alcohol necessary? I thought I read Librium was one of the only one wayer soluble. Thanks Gardie

[[...]]

HI.  have we figured out if the patron who posted about making a fresh singular batch every day had luck with her liquid paper if that's something that is repeatable by others my 1st batches were just one tablet and they were usually pretty good then I immediately went to making batches which were not so good.

Info share

 

Hi. I am the one who makes a fresh batch every evening at supper time. Actually, I make 2 separate batches because I dose twice/day. For each dose, I dissolve one whole capsule (my script is written entirely in 5mg capsules, the smallest capsule available) in a little alcohol in a small jar that has a tight lid. I add the water to make 100ml in each jar and shake it up and down a few times. Then I remove part of the liquid and pitch it out. What remains is my dose. I drink one jar at 9PM, fill with water, shake it up and again, and drink the rinse liquid. At 9AM I do the same with the other jar. I dry out the jars so they don't get icky. Each evening I pull and pitch a little more and drink the rest. I've been doing this for years. It gets very tiresome. But, if nothing else works, it's worth a try.

 

I only do this because I am on Librium which has been shown to be unstable in an aqueous solution. (It breaks down into its metabolites, which are also benzos, but different benzos.) When I was on Xanax, I used a pharmaceutical liquid that I diluted. I would make a whole week's worth at a time.

 

One thing I do to make this all more tolerable is I have a cupboard in my kitchen that has nothing but tapering supplies in it. I never open it unless I am getting out my supplies. When I am done setting up my 2 doses, I put it all away out of sight. It really helps to spend as little time as possible thinking about the taper.

 

Gardie

Hi Gardie,

You are doing so well - you are an inspiration.  I like the idea of keeping all the tapering supplies out of sight to prevent thinking about it.  That is so healthy.

 

[[Su...]]

Hi Bob.

Im one of those the vodka home brew goes right thru my system a big drop off. I was excited at first thinking it was working but a few days in it was a diff. story. So dissappointing. I rinsed the dose jar once and drank. I did not rinse the syringe. Would that make the difference of feeling like you CT?

Insofar,

I too couldn't tolerate a complete switch to liquid.  (I started with and continue to use an alcohol solution)  I take most of my dose in pill form and then a small amount in liquid so that i can taper from that.  It works well for me and is an idea...

Liquid does make it easier to taper small amounts .

SS

 

[[ga...]]

 

This seems like it could really work for me. I may have to try it. My prescription of Librium is in all 5mg pills as well. So you only dissolve one 5mg capsule in wayer  and take the rest of dose In capsules? Forgive me I don’t know what an aqueous solution is perhaps I need to read more into that. Is the alcohol necessary? I thought I read Librium was one of the only one wayer soluble. Thanks Gardie

 

I confess, I didn't read up on it. I just know aqua means water. So I assume "aqueous solution" means a solution that is mostly water.

 

Yes, I have only dissolved 1 capsule per dose and taken the rest as whole capsules. I am now down to 2 capsules (1 per dose), so I dissolve both of them, of course.

 

Please don't try only water. There was a discussion about Librium's solubility on Benzo Buddies when I switched to Librium. It seems that it is barely soluble in water. I forget how much, but it would take a lot of water to dissolve 1 capsule.

 

Here is a link to my p-log. On pages 5 (long version) and 7 (short version) I talk about my system for tapering Librium. Just ignore all the goofy pictures I stored there. There's a reason, but I'd rather  .

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137858.40

 

Gardie

[[ga...]]

HI.  have we figured out if the patron who posted about making a fresh singular batch every day had luck with her liquid paper if that's something that is repeatable by others my 1st batches were just one tablet and they were usually pretty good then I immediately went to making batches which were not so good.

Info share

 

Hi. I am the one who makes a fresh batch every evening at supper time. Actually, I make 2 separate batches because I dose twice/day. For each dose, I dissolve one whole capsule (my script is written entirely in 5mg capsules, the smallest capsule available) in a little alcohol in a small jar that has a tight lid. I add the water to make 100ml in each jar and shake it up and down a few times. Then I remove part of the liquid and pitch it out. What remains is my dose. I drink one jar at 9PM, fill with water, shake it up and again, and drink the rinse liquid. At 9AM I do the same with the other jar. I dry out the jars so they don't get icky. Each evening I pull and pitch a little more and drink the rest. I've been doing this for years. It gets very tiresome. But, if nothing else works, it's worth a try.

 

I only do this because I am on Librium which has been shown to be unstable in an aqueous solution. (It breaks down into its metabolites, which are also benzos, but different benzos.) When I was on Xanax, I used a pharmaceutical liquid that I diluted. I would make a whole week's worth at a time.

 

One thing I do to make this all more tolerable is I have a cupboard in my kitchen that has nothing but tapering supplies in it. I never open it unless I am getting out my supplies. When I am done setting up my 2 doses, I put it all away out of sight. It really helps to spend as little time as possible thinking about the taper.

 

Gardie

Hi Gardie,

You are doing so well - you are an inspiration.  I like the idea of keeping all the tapering supplies out of sight to prevent thinking about it.  That is so healthy.

 

Thanks, Bob. I've hit a rough patch, but I'm getting through it with my coping techniques and pressing on because I will be down to one capsule soon. Then I will hold through the holidays or longer if I am still unstable.

 

Gardie

[[in...]]

Hi Bob.

Im one of those the vodka home brew goes right thru my system a big drop off. I was excited at first thinking it was working but a few days in it was a diff. story. So dissappointing. I rinsed the dose jar once and drank. I did not rinse the syringe. Would that make the difference of feeling like you CT?

Insofar,

I too couldn't tolerate a complete switch to liquid.  (I started with and continue to use an alcohol solution)  I take most of my dose in pill form and then a small amount in liquid so that i can taper from that.  It works well for me and is an idea...

Liquid does make it easier to taper small amounts .

SS

  Maybe that's something that would work however many years ago when diazo Pam was on here she was cutting in liquid form and I'd followed after her we did one mg of a to milligram tablet in just 1 ml of a vodka in a 100 ml solution it wasn't as awful as my previous recent attempts but I thought it was difficult. I'm wondering should I cut to a 1/2 a milligram tablet a quarter of a to milligram volume tablet for liquid who I really would like to do the liquid version without difficulty thanks for your information suffering 60 I'm glad it's working for you

[[bu...]]

To be assured of uniformity and consistency, its best NOT to cut tablets to convert to liquid.

 

Use whole tablets, and then add the appropriate amounts of solvent (vodka or propylene glycol) and water.

 

You need 2ml of solvent for each mg of benzo.  Then you can add 8 parts water for a .1mg per ml solution, or 98 parts water for a .01mg per ml solution.