Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

Hi DLMT group,

 

I started with dry cutting halves and quarters off my first tablets, which were 2mg Clonazepam, and quickly realized that making consistent and accurate cuts were a challenge.  I began daily titration with water, and since have been pleased with both the accuracy PLUS the abilty to initiate daily tapering for a very smooth tapering experience relative to my early cut & hold days.

 

Any information around tapering rates for the final .1mg of Clonazepam would be helpful, as percentages begin to break down at some point.  Is there a point where one should begin a linear tapering rate? 

 

iF A LINEAR TAPERING RATE.. should one taper to .025mg Clonazepam (Ashton recommendation),

OR taper all the way to ZERO?

 

Hi, joparao, I don't do math so as not to mess anybody up, but I do know some people do linear and some people do percentages. Some decide at some point to "jump" (quit their benzo entirely) and do OK jumping off. Others taper all the way to as near zero as possible and "walk off."

 

There is a clonazepam support thread somewhere. Perhaps you can find it and see if any K users can share their experience.

 

I'm sure builder can give you some suggestions, too, if you tell him whether you want to do linear or do percents.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Builder,

I took the Remeron for 2 nites. One night 15mg next nite 7.5. Too much with the trazadone .I want to taper the trazadone (which doesnt work) before I continue. Would I be dependent  after 2 nights if I stop?

 

Absolutely not.

 

:thumbsup:

[[sh...]]

Hi DLMT group,

 

I started with dry cutting halves and quarters off my first tablets, which were 2mg Clonazepam, and quickly realized that making consistent and accurate cuts were a challenge.  I began daily titration with water, and since have been pleased with both the accuracy PLUS the abilty to initiate daily tapering for a very smooth tapering experience relative to my early cut & hold days.

 

Any information around tapering rates for the final .1mg of Clonazepam would be helpful, as percentages begin to break down at some point.  Is there a point where one should begin a linear tapering rate? 

 

iF A LINEAR TAPERING RATE.. should one taper to .025mg Clonazepam (Ashton recommendation),

OR taper all the way to ZERO?

 

Replied to your PM.

 

I would definitely taper all the way to zero.  You will avoid some nasty symptoms by doing so.  I used a daily cut rate of .0025mg from .25mg to 0.  This took about 102 days.  I was eager to be finished but glad I took it slow down to 0.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[sh...]]

I have read a lot on this forum about tapering and the different methods.  Also have followed peoples results after some time with different methods.  Hands down I see more success and the least amount of symptoms when I read about daily micro tapering.

 

Im talking about Liquid Titration and Daily Micro Cutting with a Gram Scale. 

 

It seems to be the way to go.  The theory is that when you cut a very small amount each day, you give your body a chance to adjust on a daily basis, instead of sending your body and mind into shock every 2 weeks. 

 

Example:  Say you are taking a 1mg pill a day. You want to taper at a rate of 10% or 0.1 mg every 2 weeks.  Instead of reducing 10% or 0.1mg every 14 days.  You simple reduce at a rate of 0.714% or 0.007 mg a day. 

 

In the example, you are reducing at the same rate but just taking a cut everyday. 

 

I guess I want the discussion opened to talk about the advantages of this method over the cut and hold.

 

***Please note:  I have nothing against cut and hold, it definitely works for a lot of people.  The Ashton Manual and this forum is the reason I have made it this far.***

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Is this the support group here? 

Hi, RR. I know you are speaking to sharkey, but he hasn't been very active on BB lately. And this group slowed way down when he left. But builder still helps people who stop by this thread. Or you can ask similar questions on the titration board.

 

Gard

 

I still check in from time to time. If you ever have specific questions about tapering you can always PM me.  Even if to say “Can you reply to my post on the Micro-Taper board?” 

 

Gard, you rock! 

 

Builder, thanks for all you do! 

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[He...]]

Hi, I am usually only on the long hold forum. I am a firm believer that a long hold will get a person out of a bad spot if their tAper has been too fast or their cuts have been too big. I know that from personal experience. Thank goodness the buddies on the long hold forum saved me!

I have not had to do more than one or two 2-4 months holds since I have switched to DLMT.

DLMT WORKS FOR ME JUST FINE.

 

I have gotten different answers to tge following question and I am still not sure what is best to do

 

I started my DLMT  with the intent of reducing  5% of my dose every month. I was at 1 mg Valium when I started DLMT.

I was reducing about .002 every day. When I got to 5% reduced, I would hold and wait til the end of a month and then start reducing again THE SAME WAY, until I HAD REDUCED down another 5% THE NEXT MONTH, AND SO ON..  If I felt some wdfx I’d put in a little hold ,,  then when feeling ok again, I’d keep going with my planned reduction.

 

Some people say it’s ok to just keep reducing my. .002 and just keep going.

 

Some people say, no, I  shouldn’t do that because as I reduce, at the end of every month my remaining balance of Valium will be lower, and therefore 5% of that balance will be lower. Therefore, if I keep going with the .002 daily reduction, I will in fact be reducing more than 5% and I may get into trouble.

 

But then some people say it is different with DLMT. It’s not like cut and hold.and you CAN keep reducing the same amount (in my case .002) as long as you dont get wdfx. And if you do, just listen to your body and hold in place until your wdfx diminishes and you feel like your body is ready to start reducing again.

 

So...what is the consensus here?

 

I know that I have to listen to my own body.

And I know the lower you go the more careful you have to be, and slow down and reduce your cutting size.

 

But am I looking for trouble if I were to reduce 6% a month if I am feeling ok?  Will wdfx catch up to me and will I crash?

I want to go a bit faster, but I am wary of getting wdfx again.

I am so tired of this drug,I want off, but I dont want to mess myself up either.

I have gotten to .752 successfully.( with some mild wdfx here and there. Nothing to cry about)  But it seems like it will take another 1 1/2 years of taKing this crap if I continue to go this slow and even slower as I get lower.

 

Any new insight from any of you here on this forum will be much appreciated.

 

How do you do your DLMT?

Do you just keep reducing and not worry about the percentage as long as you feel good?

And At what point does one slow down a really really whole lot?  .5 mg?  .2 mg?

 

Is  3 1/2 Years a crazy long time to get completely off Valium? Or is this typical? Because that’s how long it will take me if I keep going this slow! I started my taper back in January 2016...almost two years ago!

 

Heath

 

[[bu...]]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

[[Ul...]]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

 

That says it best!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

[[sh...]]

Hi, I am usually only on the long hold forum. I am a firm believer that a long hold will get a person out of a bad spot if their tAper has been too fast or their cuts have been too big. I know that from personal experience. Thank goodness the buddies on the long hold forum saved me!

I have not had to do more than one or two 2-4 months holds since I have switched to DLMT.

DLMT WORKS FOR ME JUST FINE.

 

I have gotten different answers to tge following question and I am still not sure what is best to do

 

I started my DLMT  with the intent of reducing  5% of my dose every month. I was at 1 mg Valium when I started DLMT.

I was reducing about .002 every day. When I got to 5% reduced, I would hold and wait til the end of a month and then start reducing again THE SAME WAY, until I HAD REDUCED down another 5% THE NEXT MONTH, AND SO ON..  If I felt some wdfx I’d put in a little hold ,,  then when feeling ok again, I’d keep going with my planned reduction.

 

Some people say it’s ok to just keep reducing my. .002 and just keep going.

 

Some people say, no, I  shouldn’t do that because as I reduce, at the end of every month my remaining balance of Valium will be lower, and therefore 5% of that balance will be lower. Therefore, if I keep going with the .002 daily reduction, I will in fact be reducing more than 5% and I may get into trouble.

 

But then some people say it is different with DLMT. It’s not like cut and hold.and you CAN keep reducing the same amount (in my case .002) as long as you dont get wdfx. And if you do, just listen to your body and hold in place until your wdfx diminishes and you feel like your body is ready to start reducing again.

 

So...what is the consensus here?

 

I know that I have to listen to my own body.

And I know the lower you go the more careful you have to be, and slow down and reduce your cutting size.

 

But am I looking for trouble if I were to reduce 6% a month if I am feeling ok?  Will wdfx catch up to me and will I crash?

I want to go a bit faster, but I am wary of getting wdfx again.

I am so tired of this drug,I want off, but I dont want to mess myself up either.

I have gotten to .752 successfully.( with some mild wdfx here and there. Nothing to cry about)  But it seems like it will take another 1 1/2 years of taKing this crap if I continue to go this slow and even slower as I get lower.

 

Any new insight from any of you here on this forum will be much appreciated.

 

How do you do your DLMT?

Do you just keep reducing and not worry about the percentage as long as you feel good?

And At what point does one slow down a really really whole lot?  .5 mg?  .2 mg?

 

Is  3 1/2 Years a crazy long time to get completely off Valium? Or is this typical? Because that’s how long it will take me if I keep going this slow! I started my taper back in January 2016...almost two years ago!

 

Heath

 

I agree with the others.  If it is working for you go with it.  No taper is really too long as long as you are getting closer to zero.  With DLMT if you go with how you feel you will be fine.  If you feel you want to be done a little quicker then try a few more cuts before the end of the month or just shorten your hold time.  Up to you really.  As long as you are feeling ok and slowly reducing, no real wrong answer.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[Guest [Fu...]]

I'm making the smallest daily cuts that I possibly can with a .001 g Gemini scale but I am in such bad tolerance that I am feeling each one like crazy. I don't know what to do. Holding didn't help, updosing didn't help and now I can't even taper as slowly as I possibly can. I'm at a complete loss of what to do. I don't know how anyone starting from a place of bad destabilization can go through a microtaper but detox and/or a rapid taper don't seem like options either. Has anyone started from a bad place and improved as their microtaper progressed?

[[ga...]]

I have read a lot on this forum about tapering and the different methods.  Also have followed peoples results after some time with different methods.  Hands down I see more success and the least amount of symptoms when I read about daily micro tapering.

 

Im talking about Liquid Titration and Daily Micro Cutting with a Gram Scale. 

 

It seems to be the way to go.  The theory is that when you cut a very small amount each day, you give your body a chance to adjust on a daily basis, instead of sending your body and mind into shock every 2 weeks. 

 

Example:  Say you are taking a 1mg pill a day. You want to taper at a rate of 10% or 0.1 mg every 2 weeks.  Instead of reducing 10% or 0.1mg every 14 days.  You simple reduce at a rate of 0.714% or 0.007 mg a day. 

 

In the example, you are reducing at the same rate but just taking a cut everyday. 

 

I guess I want the discussion opened to talk about the advantages of this method over the cut and hold.

 

***Please note:  I have nothing against cut and hold, it definitely works for a lot of people.  The Ashton Manual and this forum is the reason I have made it this far.***

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Is this the support group here? 

Hi, RR. I know you are speaking to sharkey, but he hasn't been very active on BB lately. And this group slowed way down when he left. But builder still helps people who stop by this thread. Or you can ask similar questions on the titration board.

 

Gard

 

I still check in from time to time. If you ever have specific questions about tapering you can always PM me.  Even if to say “Can you reply to my post on the Micro-Taper board?” 

 

Gard, you rock! 

 

Builder, thanks for all you do! 

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

So good to see you, Sharkey! Glad to hear you are "on call" for this thread.

[[ga...]]

Hi, Heath!!! I'm one of those who just keeps making the same cut for months. I am usually heading for a goal and just keep going until I get there (unless something goes terribly wrong). My doctor doesn't give me much leeway in this, so good thing it mostly works. I think it mostly works for most people. So...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Gard

[[Kg...]]

Fuzzy the answer is yes. Nothing made me feel better- holding was a nightmare as I got worse and worse, and I had s/x all the way down.  I feel so much better off of the benzos it is not even comparable.  So for some people the trick is to just grit your teeth, understand you will not feel well at all, and get the heck off.  BTW I did go into acute on the lower doses but compared to the higher doses I was 'better'. How could I tell - well I weighed 99 lbs and couldn't gain an ounce in the throes of my taper, as I got lower, I stopped losing weight, and started gaining weight. My hair stopped falling out in clumps.  So though I still didn't feel good, my body was healing. 

 

I wish you luck on your journey but know that you will heal.  Kgirl.

[Guest [Fu...]]

Kgirl - I see from your sig  that you did a slight updose and added in a small amount of Valium before the MT. Do you think that helped at all? It just feels impossible to microtaper while so destabilized. I feel like something in my head as "snapped". The DP/DR is so bad that I feel like a stranger in my own house, in my own skin. It's just so incredibly hard and terrifying.

[[Kg...]]

Fuzzy:  I don't think the Valium helped me but I only say this in retrospect since it was so hard to get off of and I realized it was the valium that was causing my morning nausea.  It was a s/x of the drug.  So I would not add it on, but rather I would stick with the drug you know so to speak.

 

I didn't  have DR/DP though many do and as far as I know it is related to your taper.  I think that if I had that I would be going for counseling, just to get through the day so to speak. My worst s/x were nausea, horrible anxiety caused by my taper which gave me agoraphobia and created nightmares for me every time I had to leave my house.  I also lost my hair, as I said, lost weight, looked horrible, and on and on and on. 

 

I answered your PM. This is doable. 

 

FYI:  NYC Waverunner one of my taper buddies had the DR/DP as her worst s/x. She is now traveling to visit family for Xmas and seeing out of town friends on the weekends. So yes it does get better and it does go away. 

[[ga...]]

I'm making the smallest daily cuts that I possibly can with a .001 g Gemini scale but I am in such bad tolerance that I am feeling each one like crazy. I don't know what to do. Holding didn't help, updosing didn't help and now I can't even taper as slowly as I possibly can. I'm at a complete loss of what to do. I don't know how anyone starting from a place of bad destabilization can go through a microtaper but detox and/or a rapid taper don't seem like options either. Has anyone started from a bad place and improved as their microtaper progressed?

Fuzzy, My heart goes out to you.  If it gives you any hope, yes, I have improved somewhat as I've gotten lower in dosage.  The worst was at the beginning of this, my 2nd taper, when I cut from 2 mg Ativan to 1.75 mg.  I thought I was losing my mind and scared some of my friends away.  I actually think I was a bit psychotic.  That's when I realized I couldn't taper Ativan so I cross tapered to Valium.  But, that doesn't help you as you've already tried that.

 

Honestly, it sounds like you're going be in some form of acute withdrawal no matter which way you go, so it seems better to just head down. There's no way for you to know what will happen based on anyone else's experience as we are all different.  Seems like you need to taper but not too rapidly. 

 

I never stabilized while holding....I was miserable so just continued on.  I may flip out tomorrow, but will have to deal with that if/when it happens.  But, I'm better now at 1.31 mg valium that I was at 3 mg. The cut from 3 mg to 2.5 mg was brutal and caused me to switch to a daily liquid micro taper. It's been much better for me since.  I'm sorry it didn't work for you.

 

Are you alone?  If you have a spouse and/or someone to at least make sure you get food, etc...then I would feel more bold about going forward with it even though you are already miserable.  The worst is feeling the way you do and being alone with no one to help. 

[Guest [Fu...]]

I have my mom which is kinda sad as a 31 year old but she came home to me crying and saying "I'm so scared, nothing feels real." and she made me dinner and tea even though I was scared to move. So thankfully I have her and she's trying her best to be understanding. She even made me say out loud that I will beat this.

[[ga...]]

I have my mom which is kinda sad as a 31 year old but she came home to me crying and saying "I'm so scared, nothing feels real." and she made me dinner and tea even though I was scared to move. So thankfully I have her and she's trying her best to be understanding. She even made me say out loud that I will beat this.

Well, that's good.  At least you have your family to support you and take care of your physical needs.  Be thankful for that.

 

Sounds like you need to get on a partial liquid taper....take most of your dose dry and the rest liquid.  Have you asked builder to help you with a taper schedule?  Klonopin is fairly long acting, so there's no reason to try Valium again.  Resume the taper and don't updose.  If you get really bad, just hold awhile.  If you don't get better after a month or so, just start tapering again.  If you can get into a pattern like this, it might give you some stability and at least you'd have a plan.  That in and of itself might help you, mentally.

 

I may be completely wrong in what I've recommended.  It's just a thought.  I think you need help from someone here who is a veteran and very familiar with the kind of situation you are in.  Perhaps you could PM some of those people and get their ideas.  Read some success stories from people who have tapered off of Klonopin and then ask them for advice. 

 

I wish you better days ahead, FD.

 

[[Ul...]]

Fuzzy:  I don't think the Valium helped me but I only say this in retrospect since it was so hard to get off of and I realized it was the valium that was causing my morning nausea.  It was a s/x of the drug.  So I would not add it on, but rather I would stick with the drug you know so to speak.

 

I didn't  have DR/DP though many do and as far as I know it is related to your taper.  I think that if I had that I would be going for counseling, just to get through the day so to speak. My worst s/x were nausea, horrible anxiety caused by my taper which gave me agoraphobia and created nightmares for me every time I had to leave my house.  I also lost my hair, as I said, lost weight, looked horrible, and on and on and on. 

 

I answered your PM. This is doable. 

 

FYI:  NYC Waverunner one of my taper buddies had the DR/DP as her worst s/x. She is now traveling to visit family for Xmas and seeing out of town friends on the weekends. So yes it does get better and it does go away.

 

OK, stupid question here....what's DR/DP?

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

I have my mom which is kinda sad as a 31 year old but she came home to me crying and saying "I'm so scared, nothing feels real." and she made me dinner and tea even though I was scared to move. So thankfully I have her and she's trying her best to be understanding. She even made me say out loud that I will beat this.

 

You WILL beat this!!!!! One hour at a time. Trust the process

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

I have my mom which is kinda sad as a 31 year old but she came home to me crying and saying "I'm so scared, nothing feels real." and she made me dinner and tea even though I was scared to move. So thankfully I have her and she's trying her best to be understanding. She even made me say out loud that I will beat this.

 

Your mom sounds wonderful. Let her take care of you now. As a mom myself, I know she is happy to be able to do something for you even if you are all grown up.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

 

OK, stupid question here....what's DR/DP?

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

De-realization and de-personalization. Truly 2 of the worst w/d symptoms out there. Puts you in a complete panic that almost nothing can touch. Having his mom reassuring him is the best medicine for that. You need constant reassurance when you are hit with them.

[Guest [Fu...]]

I actually am at a CCS right now after going to the ER 3 times in two weeks. So I'm going to have to abandon my taper and updose back to 2.5 mg's. I only was about 3 weeks into a very slow taper so I don't think it's that big of a deal, I just need to find some way to stabilize because I can't microtaper this way.

 

I agree about the partial dry/partial liquid taper. That is the only method that I ever had any sort of success with.

[[Su...]]

Hey Fuzzy,

Sorry to hear that things continue to be so rough for you.  I'm not sure what CCS is (Canadian here) but it sounds like you are in good hands?  Or somewhere you can get a bit of respite.  The combo of dry and liquid tapering works for me too, liquid only was a disaster.

So glad that you have the support of your Mom and folks here.....

Wanted to give a shout out to you and your perseverance in this roller coaster ride of beating benzos....

:smitten:

SS

[[ga...]]

Hey Fuzzy,

Sorry to hear that things continue to be so rough for you.  I'm not sure what CCS is (Canadian here) but it sounds like you are in good hands?  Or somewhere you can get a bit of respite.  The combo of dry and liquid tapering works for me too, liquid only was a disaster.

So glad that you have the support of your Mom and folks here.....

Wanted to give a shout out to you and your perseverance in this roller coaster ride of beating benzos....

:smitten:

SS

 

Very good words.  (Also don't know what CCS is.)

[[Ul...]]

 

OK, stupid question here....what's DR/DP?

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

De-realization and de-personalization. Truly 2 of the worst w/d symptoms out there. Puts you in a complete panic that almost nothing can touch. Having his mom reassuring him is the best medicine for that. You need constant reassurance when you are hit with them.

 

Holy snot!! That sounds super mean. Question for ya, Gard: Have you ever had (or know anyone else who has) a small skin break-out of some kind? I know it's not a taper question, but just thought I'd ask.  I have a small place about 2 inches in diameter on my lower calf that seems irritated. It's not real sore, but it's there. It's "raised" a little from my skin...a red, patchy area. Had the same thing in the same place on my other calf too! It kind of dried up, but I can still see where it was. Pretty sure it's not a bug bite. Odd that it's almost the same thing in the same area on my two calves. Nothing surprises me with all of this taper stuff, but still thought I'd check in.

 

Keep holding the fort down!! See ya...

 

Jeff