Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Su...]]

Happy New Year! 

 

Two nights ago I started weaning off my 5mgs of Librium.  FINALLY!!  On the long road to healing.  Trying to stay positive for the New Year!

 

Another big thank you to Gardener99 ( my lifesaver), Builder and Vineet for their help.  I decided to do a water only titration in 150 mls of water starting out at 5% a month. 

 

May this year be a very healing one for everyone!

Way yo go Lib 18!  Good luck and Best Wishes on your taper.

SS

[[Fr...]]

I am taking .5mg clonazepam split in three doses a day. I would like to do a dry cut daily taper. How in the world do you cut off .001g off of a .5mg pill a day. I do have a Gemini 20 scale

 

I weighed ten pills got an average of .168 at a 10% reduction of .017 then split daily over 14 days is .001 but how do you possibly get that small of an increment off of the pill?

[[bu...]]

I am taking .5mg clonazepam split in three doses a day. I would like to do a dry cut daily taper. How in the world do you cut off .001g off of a .5mg pill a day. I do have a Gemini 20 scale

 

I weighed ten pills got an average of .168 at a 10% reduction of .017 then split daily over 14 days is .001 but how do you possibly get that small of an increment off of the pill?

 

Your scale is actually calibrated to .001G, so theoretically, its possible.  Use a nail file.

 

But that's why liquid is so much easier.

[[ga...]]

Happy New Year! 

 

Two nights ago I started weaning off my 5mgs of Librium.  FINALLY!!  On the long road to healing.  Trying to stay positive for the New Year!

 

 

CONGRATULATIONS!!! I know you're going to do great. 5mg is very doable.

[[ga...]]

Hi all, been turned on to this thread by SS and along with her kind advice, would like to ask for input from others.

 

Is it possible to dry microtaper Xanax?

 

We have 0.5mg pills (been just dry cutting but not microtapering) and will be getting the Gemini scale. 

 

Is it possible to liquid taper Xanax with water, or must it be with milk or alcohol? 

 

I want to start microtapering because my mother's having such a hard time, to try to make the days at least somewhat bearable for her, so she can eat and sleep.

 

I started with Xanax tablets and then got my prescriber to write a script for the liquid to make reducing easy. It's pre-dissolved in propylene glycol but is pretty strong. All you have to do if you have the liquid prescription is dilute it with water and then you can titrate very easily.  (I'm on L now, but started this journey on X.)

 

As builder mentioned, you can also dissolve in PG yourself, which you can buy on amazon. I highly recommend going the liquid route. Those scales are not as accurate as a liquid.

 

Not sure why her doctor has her dosing unevenly. You might want to ask about this. If you can get the liquid, you can also get her doses even, which may reduce her symptoms.

 

I agree with trying to make this as gentle as possible. I started out way too fast and crashed big time. There's no rush. Slow and steady wins the race.

[[ga...]]

 

I wanted to write in again about liquid Librium incase anyone has been searching threads. YES, it is stable in solution. I get it made every two weeks from a compounding pharmacy.

 

 

I'm glad what your pharmacy is doing is working for you. Perhaps it depends on what the liquid is. Clearly it was not stable in this study, which used an aqueous solution.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20066402

[[de...]]

Thank you, builder, gardener99, prhiannon (from old posts), and of course, SufferingSixty!

 

Today we upped the dose back to 1.25mg Xanax, to hopefully grab a little relief for Mom so she can eat and sleep some.  If good, we'll hold for a while, let her system stabilize.  Then, plan for daily water microtaper, to slow things way down, cutting at rate of 10% of current dose per 2-4 weeks. 

 

That's the current big idea, from skimming various posts, though I have so much still to learn, and yet to even peek at spreadsheets of titration dosages.  Apologies if I end up asking questions asked a thousand times before (you guys tired of newbies yet? ), but I'm guessing this is how the forum works, and I'm just grateful for the information and support here. 

 

Would appreciate any thoughts or input on my plan above, so any feedback? 

[[Li...]]

Thanks Suffering Sixty and Gardener,

 

Gardener or Builder....I'm afraid I'm going too fast...just shocked.    Gardener...how do you dose? I'm dissolving my 5 mgs of Librium in 150 mls of water...taking .25 the first day, then .50 the second....that's a 5% cut over 30 days.  I felt it the first night just taking out .25!  I shake the hell outta the bottle and it's all suspended but afraid I'm taking out too much.  I fret over the fact that I'm not using enough water so when I pull only .25 mls out, I'm taking out more Benzo than I should.  If I used 300 mls wouldn't it be less chance of me taking out way too much since there is more volume?  Am I even making sense? 

 

So sorry for these stupid questions.  Thx

[[Su...]]

Thank you, builder, gardener99, prhiannon (from old posts), and of course, SufferingSixty!

 

Today we upped the dose back to 1.25mg Xanax, to hopefully grab a little relief for Mom so she can eat and sleep some.  If good, we'll hold for a while, let her system stabilize.  Then, plan for daily water microtaper, to slow things way down, cutting at rate of 10% of current dose per 2-4 weeks. 

 

That's the current big idea, from skimming various posts, though I have so much still to learn, and yet to even peek at spreadsheets of titration dosages.  Apologies if I end up asking questions asked a thousand times before (you guys tired of newbies yet? ), but I'm guessing this is how the forum works, and I'm just grateful for the information and support here. 

 

Would appreciate any thoughts or input on my plan above, so any feedback?

 

Hi  delta1,

That sounds like a good plan to me. My only question to you is around the water taper..  The Xanax needs to be dissolved in something, be it alcohol, propylene glycol or milk.  Benzos are not water soluble.... I know you're not there yet but just wanted to add that....

Hoping that your mom gets some relief from the updose soon and that her system settles down..

:smitten:

SS

[[de...]]

Would appreciate any input from ALL BUDDIES, didn't mean to exclude or burden anyone in particular 

 

That said ...

 

SS , I get now that benzos are not water-soluble, such that I expect to work with a suspension and not a solution, from reading posts about water titrating Xanax.  After letting the pill "dissolve" in water, I'll take care to look for an even suspension before drawing up amounts in a syringe.  Maybe I'm being lazy in leaning towards water, but for some reason the alcohol, PG, and milk just don't appeal right now, though I may be forced to sing a different tune soon enough

[[bu...]]

Would appreciate any input from ALL BUDDIES, didn't mean to exclude or burden anyone in particular 

 

That said ...

 

SS , I get now that benzos are not water-soluble, such that I expect to work with a suspension and not a solution, from reading posts about water titrating Xanax.  After letting the pill "dissolve" in water, I'll take care to look for an even suspension before drawing up amounts in a syringe.  Maybe I'm being lazy in leaning towards water, but for some reason the alcohol, PG, and milk just don't appeal right now, though I may be forced to sing a different tune soon enough

 

Water is NOT a benzo-solvent, and water is also a very poor suspension agent.

If you really want to do a suspension, I strongly recommend a proper pharma-grade  suspension agent, like OraPlus/OraSweet.

 

BTW, making a dissolved liquid with vodka, PG, or milk, its about as difficult as stirring some sweetener in you morning coffee/tea.  Not much different from dropping your tablet in water.

[[ka...]]

Would appreciate any input from ALL BUDDIES, didn't mean to exclude or burden anyone in particular 

 

That said ...

 

SS , I get now that benzos are not water-soluble, such that I expect to work with a suspension and not a solution, from reading posts about water titrating Xanax.  After letting the pill "dissolve" in water, I'll take care to look for an even suspension before drawing up amounts in a syringe.  Maybe I'm being lazy in leaning towards water, but for some reason the alcohol, PG, and milk just don't appeal right now, though I may be forced to sing a different tune soon enough

 

Water is NOT a benzo-solvent, and water is also a very poor suspension agent.

If you really want to do a suspension, I strongly recommend a proper pharma-grade  suspension agent, like OraPlus/OraSweet.

 

BTW, making a dissolved liquid with vodka, PG, or milk, its about as difficult as stirring some sweetener in you morning coffee/tea.  Not much different from dropping your tablet in water.

 

Hi Delta1,

Builder is so right. I would sure hate to see you and mom go through some potentially very difficult days to weeks of  symptoms to only discover that the medication was not dissolving and suspending correctly/evenly by using water. With the several great options that can be utilized, there by eliminating that learning curve.  Once mom stabilizes to what many call a baseline, you guys can start off the liquid taper with peace of mind pertaining to the suspension.  Best of luck, you guys will do great!!

[[Ul...]]

I don't post very often, but I do read your posts. This is about the only thread I read on BB's. Every now and then I'll read a little on the muscle pain or joint pain threads since that's become such a big problem in my taper until very recently. I've been tapering my last med (klonopin) for the last 2 1/2 years. Something I've learned over that time is to chill and trust the process, and to not sweat every little thing that comes along, while the biggest lesson has been to listen to my body and taper based on how I feel (heal faster than I taper). Super, super slow road due to my extremely high sensitivity to everything on the planet, but the system works. I can't imagine doing anything other than a liquid taper since the dry cut was brutal for me. I honestly couldn't tell you what percentage I taper each month because I don't go by percentages...just side effects and ability to handle typical life situations. I've read the horrors people go through on a couple other sites, and it's really apparent that people that suffer the most are the one's that try to go too fast. We'll all get there!!! Trust yourself, and trust the great guidance on this thread. Simple is best, and less is more . Let's all make '18 the best yet. Blessings to all!!

 

Jeff

(Geaux Tigers)

[[Su...]]

I don't post very often, but I do read your posts. This is about the only thread I read on BB's. Every now and then I'll read a little on the muscle pain or joint pain threads since that's become such a big problem in my taper until very recently. I've been tapering my last med (klonopin) for the last 2 1/2 years. Something I've learned over that time is to chill and trust the process, and to not sweat every little thing that comes along, while the biggest lesson has been to listen to my body and taper based on how I feel (heal faster than I taper). Super, super slow road due to my extremely high sensitivity to everything on the planet, but the system works. I can't imagine doing anything other than a liquid taper since the dry cut was brutal for me. I honestly couldn't tell you what percentage I taper each month because I don't go by percentages...just side effects and ability to handle typical life situations. I've read the horrors people go through on a couple other sites, and it's really apparent that people that suffer the most are the one's that try to go too fast. We'll all get there!!! Trust yourself, and trust the great guidance on this thread. Simple is best, and less is more . Let's all make '18 the best yet. Blessings to all!!

 

Jeff

(Geaux Tigers)

 

Great Post Ultra....

Thanks for the reminder and the inspiration.... And to remember to forget about percentages..  

SS

[[de...]]

To water or not to water ...

 

Okay, I really do appreciate the input, and maybe I need to turn my thinking around about this as I did about tapering slowly (with SS's very kind persuasion), and if I can't do water titration, then the next option would likely be milk at this point, but what of the people who've posted about merrily using water to titrate their benzos (e.g., prhiannon back in 2012 who did so for 2 years), were they just wrong and didn't know it? 

 

Has anyone actually experimented and found a difference -- water titrating and having awful symptoms, switching to milk/vodka/PG titration and symptoms alleviating? 

 

Please note that I'm not trying to be difficult, just thorough perhaps.  And thank you so much. 

[[bu...]]

Actually, a majority of benzo users are able to withdraw with over a period of a few weeks, with only limited, if any sxs.  So for those folks, a method that does not really make sense probably works anyway.  And while its true that some folks "water titrate" off of benzo, why would you not choose a method that is scientific and logical?  Why would you not choose a procedure that gave you the best probability of a smooth, successful taper?

 

When a C&H taper became intolerable, I wanted a procedure that 1) would result in the minimum amount of discomfort, and 2) was logical and supported by basic scientific principles.  (I had tried [3 times] to water-taper and it was a disaster.  So a little research showed my why)

 

And of course, everyone can choose whatever method they want, but I really don't understand the resistance to using a liquid that we all know actually makes a true uniformly distributed solution.  It is no more difficult to dissolve a benzo in a solvent (milk, PG, vodka) and dilute with water than it is to drop it in water.  You need to make the same measurements, follow the same basic procedure, and the dosing procedure will be the same, no matter what liquid you use.

 

As I said, if you can stir milk and sugar in your beverage, you can make a proper liquid benzo.

[[bu...]]

Just FYI..

 

In the US, there are 3 Rx liquid benzos, diazepam, lorazepam, and alprozalam.  All of them either use alcohol or propylene glycol as a solvent, and water as a dilutant.  If the benzos were water-soluble, why wouldn't the mfgr simply make a water-based product.

 

And when a compounding pharmacy is used, they either start with an alcohol or PG solvent, or more commonly, a suitable suspension agent.  Neither the pharma mfgrs, or compounding pharmacist, try to make a water-based liquid benzo.

[[bu...]]

Would appreciate any input from ALL BUDDIES, didn't mean to exclude or burden anyone in particular 

 

That said ...

 

SS , I get now that benzos are not water-soluble, such that I expect to work with a suspension and not a solution, from reading posts about water titrating Xanax.  After letting the pill "dissolve" in water, I'll take care to look for an even suspension before drawing up amounts in a syringe.  Maybe I'm being lazy in leaning towards water, but for some reason the alcohol, PG, and milk just don't appeal right now, though I may be forced to sing a different tune soon enough

 

Water is NOT a benzo-solvent, and water is also a very poor suspension agent.

If you really want to do a suspension, I strongly recommend a proper pharma-grade  suspension agent, like OraPlus/OraSweet.

 

BTW, making a dissolved liquid with vodka, PG, or milk, its about as difficult as stirring some sweetener in you morning coffee/tea.  Not much different from dropping your tablet in water.

 

100% agree with builder. A water suspension is a very tricky thing and Xanax is very unforgiving.

 

Builder can help you figure out a proper suspension with OraPlus or how to dissolve with alcohol or PG to make a stable solution. Of course, the easiest thing ever is to ask for a script for liquid Xanax and just dilute it.

I think stabilizing before tapering is a very good idea. I hope that works out. 

 

Gard

 

:thumbsup:

[[ga...]]

I wanted to add this (hope it makes sense).

 

If you have a risky water suspension and you run into trouble tapering, you won't know if you made an error with the tricky water suspension or if you're tapering too fast. Better to get rid of the risky variable and use a proper suspension or solution so you're not guessing.

 

Gard

 

[[ga...]]

Thanks Suffering Sixty and Gardener,

 

Gardener or Builder....I'm afraid I'm going too fast...just shocked.    Gardener...how do you dose? I'm dissolving my 5 mgs of Librium in 150 mls of water...taking .25 the first day, then .50 the second....that's a 5% cut over 30 days.  I felt it the first night just taking out .25!  I shake the hell outta the bottle and it's all suspended but afraid I'm taking out too much.  I fret over the fact that I'm not using enough water so when I pull only .25 mls out, I'm taking out more Benzo than I should.  If I used 300 mls wouldn't it be less chance of me taking out way too much since there is more volume?  Am I even making sense? 

 

So sorry for these stupid questions.  Thx

 

Lib, Can I convince you to dissolve or use OraPlus? What you're doing with water is probably suspending your dose, not dissolving it. Some people do successful water suspensions, but not everyone does. It takes a good eye and a smooth, fast pull. I tried it. I could see the little bits settling as I tried to get the lid off the jar, tried to pull, tried to get rid of the bubbles in the syringe. It made me a nervous wreck. Shaking longer is not going to slow settling. As builder just pointed out, water is a very poor suspension agent. 

 

water suspension: particles floating and settling, probably not very evenly distributed, potential of a vortex making them very unequally distributed, potential of rapid settling making them very unequally distributed

 

solution (such as vodka plus water): particles are uniformly distributed and will stay that way nearly indefinitely

 

OraPlus suspension: particles suspended in a special liquid that holds them evenly distributed in place for a very long time so no worries about settling

 

 

I do 3ml of 80 proof vodka plus 97 ml of water to make 100 ml of solution per 5mg capsule. What I'm doing right now is a .2ml reduction from each 100ml (I dose 3 times) per day. I always start with fresh 100ml of solution every day. Sounds like our rates are similar.

 

I'm concerned about telling you to hold where you are to stabilize because if the trouble is your suspension is not working, you're going to be all over the place with your doses while you hold. You just started, right? You have 3 choices if you just started;

 

1. Go back to whole capsules and hold while you work out what to do.

2. Hold right where you are with your current system and see if this is just a wave that is going to pass.

3. Keep going and see if this is a wave that is going to pass.

 

I had a terrible crash my first year and kept going. I don't know how I survived it. (Crying on this board, perhaps. ) I rarely had a window. I finally held. I think I would have saved myself a lot of misery and maybe had a shorter taper if I had held instead of pushing ahead. So, I'm gun-shy and would choose option 1.

 

I will admit that when I started up with liquid again after 2 months on whole capsules, my first reduction hit me harder than I thought it would. It was not a terrible crash. It was a surprising hit. But I've been around this block so many times, I was not surprised by the surprise, if that makes sense. Waves and windows are typical. You may feel awful today and fine tomorrow. But if your suspension is not working, you could be in for a very rough ride.

 

Meanwhile, random advice for coping with this journey:

 

Be kind to yourself just as though you were taking care of a sick friend.

Use positive, low stress distractions to get your mind off of your symptoms. (I watch Andy Griffith reruns and do some easy crafting, stuff I never thought I had time for before.)

Consider adding acceptance-based mindfulness practices. (I do a guided body scan nearly every day. I tell myself, "Let time pass," when I feel like freaking out. I even have that stuck on my bathroom mirror.)

Don't read scary boards on BB.

Don't watch or read distressing news.

Eat healthy. Reduce sugar and refined grains. Fast carbs make your blood sugar yo-yo which can cause anxiety.

Put your tapering supplies out of sight when you're not using them.

Don't beat yourself up over any of this. We've all been in bad places. We've all been newbies asking dozens of questions. We're all in this together.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Hi,Kasey!

 

Hi, Jeff!

 

[move]Geaux Tigers![/move]

 

 

Gard

[[Li...]]

Gardener....gosh, thank you so much!

 

I've decided to test out the alcohol again..had people telling me that it works on Gaba (which I know) so was scared it would cause issues...no matter how little I drank.  So you are drinking like 9 mls of vodka per day then right?  since you dose 3 times per day. 

 

I only spent 3 days of weaning...had taken out .75 mls total...still had the head pressure/ eye pressure/slight lightheadedness but hadn't gotten worse.  I'm starting over and drank the whole 150 mls last night to get stabilized.  My body needs to get used to the added water apparently ...I was doing 100 mls then now 150 mls in an 8 oz Mason Jar.  Will do that for a week, then try the alcohol.  Not sure how much I'll take out..no more than 25 mls that's for sure. 

 

Anyway, thanks for your words of wisdom!  I will keep you updated.  As always, I'm wishing you luck on your taper.  It totally makes sense everything you said.  I feel like I owe you something...you have been the most helpful...I will be forever grateful!

[[ga...]]

Gardener....gosh, thank you so much!

 

I've decided to test out the alcohol again..had people telling me that it works on Gaba (which I know) so was scared it would cause issues...no matter how little I drank.  So you are drinking like 9 mls of vodka per day then right?  since you dose 3 times per day. 

 

I only spent 3 days of weaning...had taken out .75 mls total...still had the head pressure/ eye pressure/slight lightheadedness but hadn't gotten worse.  I'm starting over and drank the whole 150 mls last night to get stabilized.  My body needs to get used to the added water apparently ...I was doing 100 mls then now 150 mls in an 8 oz Mason Jar.  Will do that for a week, then try the alcohol.  Not sure how much I'll take out..no more than 25 mls that's for sure. 

 

Anyway, thanks for your words of wisdom!  I will keep you updated.  As always, I'm wishing you luck on your taper.  It totally makes sense everything you said.  I feel like I owe you something...you have been the most helpful...I will be forever grateful!

 

Yup, 9ml/day.

 

You mean .25ml, right?

 

As for owing me something, nope. Some day you will pass it forward. We learn from others and pass it forward.

[[bu...]]

Gardener....gosh, thank you so much!

 

I've decided to test out the alcohol again..had people telling me that it works on Gaba (which I know) so was scared it would cause issues...no matter how little I drank.  So you are drinking like 9 mls of vodka per day then right?  since you dose 3 times per day. 

 

 

  I don't know the specifics of Gard's schedule, but you can set up a plan that will never require more than 1ml vodka (.4ml alcohol) per day.

[[Li...]]

Builder, that would be great if I could understand it...lol.

 

I dose like Gardener but I dose only at night at 5 mgs.  I'm doing 5 mgs in 150 mls of water right now.  I make it every night then immediately drink it.  Since Librium is not stable in water for long.

 

So I'm interested in what you have to say...the less alcohol for me the better.  Thx.