Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

Jeff, I'm having a lot of joint pain, too. And some muscle cramping. The muscle cramping I think is the taper. It hits hard and feels like a vise grip. The joint pain is from old injuries I didn't have the strength to deal with during my illness and taper. I was walking funny because of them which led to more problems. I have a good physical therapist now who is working with me slowly and carefully. And I am seeing progress. She knows I'm withdrawing from a benzo (muscle relaxant) but doesn't really know what to make of that. If you have access to a good physical therapist, you might want to give it a try. He/she might find something fixable.

 

Gard

[[Ul...]]

I read here fairly often, but don't post a ton. And Gypsy, you've been through it!! Congrats on being so strong-willed through your challenges.

 

I know this isn't a micro taper question, but I'll ask it anyway since I almost never go to any other thread in BB's. Has anyone had any crazy joint pain or stiffness kick in during their taper? Or, has anyone heard of others with similar problems? I hardly cut at all over the past year+, but I started to taper recently and noticed killer knee pain kick in literally overnight. I thought I heard someone say that tapers often hit the weakest links in the body physically. My knees weren't great since I reinjured my back again last year and then had my second back surgery. I walked with a horrible limp for about 3 months before I was able to get in for surgery (I highly DON'T recommend back surgery!!). I didn't have any choice but to have the surgery since I was blasted pretty bad in a car accident. So, knee joint pain kicked in about 3 weeks after I started this recent taper. It almost happened overnight. Amazing. Then my right hip joint started hurting a few days ago all of a sudden. Again, my right side is a mess due to the back surgery, walking awkwardly, etc. I was so concerned about starting the taper and getting killed with anxiety, panic, depression, etc. Instead (so far) I've gotten nailed by the joint stuff. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Everybody keep forging ahead!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Hey Ultra

Thanks ultra, it has been tough but one medication down and one to go.

The aches and pains whilst tapering I can answer, when I was cutting the ami I got to 15mg I had aches and pains in joints and knees and legs funny thing was I had started to walk 5km a day and thought it was just that, but it went on for 10 months then eased off when I made another cut same thing happened so IMO I think all these drugs can have that effect when we cut however small.

Most of these drugs act like pain killers and anti inflammatories so when it starts to leave our systems we are slammed. And I do remember my legs go so stiff I couldn't sit crossed legged which I have done my whole life it took a long time but it did wear off quite a bit where I feel sort of normal.

Unfortunately you have injuries which don't help so extremely slow is the way to go in my honest opinion. Better to go slow and eventually succeed than to go fast and fail and suffer.

 

Hope this helps a little

 

Luv n hugs

Gypsy

 

I agree with ya, Gypsy. Yet, if I go any slower I'll be in reverse!!

 

Thanks!

[[Ul...]]

Jeff, I'm having a lot of joint pain, too. And some muscle cramping. The muscle cramping I think is the taper. It hits hard and feels like a vise grip. The joint pain is from old injuries I didn't have the strength to deal with during my illness and taper. I was walking funny because of them which led to more problems. I have a good physical therapist now who is working with me slowly and carefully. And I am seeing progress. She knows I'm withdrawing from a benzo (muscle relaxant) but doesn't really know what to make of that. If you have access to a good physical therapist, you might want to give it a try. He/she might find something fixable.

 

Gard

 

The Gard-Meister! Yep, I've been working with a PT for well over a year. Awesome guy, but he doesn't "get" the benzo taper thing. I occasionally see another PT on his staff, but they haven't been able to do much about my knee stuff. That just kicked in recently, but the back stuff is something they've helped out quite a bit with. If it's not one thing, it's your mother!! I'll keep pluggin' away. Bless ya, sweet lady!!!!

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

 

If it's not one thing, it's your mother!!

 

Jeff

 

:laugh:

[[ga...]]

I messed up my taper valium last night due to my memory that is completely shot.  I took 1.67 mg Tuesday night and am cutting .03 mg per night.  I have a spreadsheet that I keep in my den/office that I refer to each night before turning the lights out & going to the bedroom.  Last night, I checked off my dose which was to be 1.64 mg.  By the time I got to the bedroom, brushed my teeth and got out my oral syringe, I had it in my mind to subtract .03 from 1.64 so that's what I did....and I took 1.61 mg. 

 

I didn't notice till tonight when I looked at the spreadsheet and saw my mistake.  I've been feeling more woozy than usual this afternoon and now I know why.  My plan is to take 1.61 mg again tonight and then just keep going as I'm on a roll and seem to be a bit more calm as I inch down in dose.  The thought of holding makes me cringe as it never helps. 

 

Has anyone else made this kind of mistake and how did if affect you?  I can't believe how poor my cognition is.  Will it come back?  I'm worried that I have permanent dementia from this poison.

[[bu...]]

Lots of folks have made similar mistakes, or even bigger ones...no real problem.

 

"My plan is to take 1.61 mg again tonight and then just keep going ..."

 

...and that will work just fine!

[[Ki...]]

I did, a few times! And it really didnt hit me very hard. The only time it did was from a MAJOR reduction, that hammered me. But I made some errors along the same scale you mentioned and I was not sure if it was the mistake or just a bad time in my taper which I had quite a few of. Even when I was barely tapering at all I had times worse than when I had dose miscalculations. Hopefully you wont even notice it!

[[ga...]]

Builder and KBB, Thanks so very much for your affirmation!!!

[[Ki...]]

You will be just fine- small mistakes get covered up pretty well by that long half life!

[[ga...]]

Are people usually able to keep up their cut rate till the end when at this low a dose of valium?  I cut to 1.55 mg tonight and am cutting .03 mg/day.  Wondering if I'll hit a wall at some point....then I don't know what I'll do. 

 

I actually feel a bit better now than I did when I cut from 3 to 2.5 mg.  That was horrible and took me a month before I could start again, and then had to go to a DLMT.  Seems like it's easier than cut and hold, but I'm still very depressed and not able to function much. 

 

It seems like this will never end....it just goes on and on and on.  And knowing that the bottom usually falls out after jumping really makes it scary.  I'm so darned negative that I can hardly stand to be around myself.  Is this common?

[[Sl...]]

May I please have suggestions for going from 1mg Valium to zero? I will be using liquid Valium and would like opinions on what each dosage should be and for how many days. Dose twice a day. Please, if someone could respond. At the end of a long taper and want to finish as successfully as I can and I do realize we are all different, just need some ideas. Please. Thank you.

[[bu...]]

May I please have suggestions for going from 1mg Valium to zero? I will be using liquid Valium and would like opinions on what each dosage should be and for how many days. Dose twice a day. Please, if someone could respond. At the end of a long taper and want to finish as successfully as I can and I do realize we are all different, just need some ideas. Please. Thank you.

 

Assuming you have the 5mg=5ml (1:1) liquid diazepam...

 

 

Dilute 10ml liquid diazepm with 90 ml water.  You will now have 100ml dilute solution, each ml contains .1mg

 

Follow this schedule:

 

1mg      (10ml)

.95mg    (9.5ml)

.90mg    (9.0ml)

.85mg    (8.5ml

.80mg    (8.0ml)

etc...

 

 

Just lower your dose by .05mg (.5ml) each day.  This is the 1mg per 20 days referenced in your siggy.

 

Store the dilute liquid at room temp in a closed glass jar.  On this schedule, your 100mls will last approx 10-12 days.

[[ga...]]

I messed up my taper valium last night due to my memory that is completely shot.  I took 1.67 mg Tuesday night and am cutting .03 mg per night.  I have a spreadsheet that I keep in my den/office that I refer to each night before turning the lights out & going to the bedroom.  Last night, I checked off my dose which was to be 1.64 mg.  By the time I got to the bedroom, brushed my teeth and got out my oral syringe, I had it in my mind to subtract .03 from 1.64 so that's what I did....and I took 1.61 mg. 

 

I didn't notice till tonight when I looked at the spreadsheet and saw my mistake.  I've been feeling more woozy than usual this afternoon and now I know why.  My plan is to take 1.61 mg again tonight and then just keep going as I'm on a roll and seem to be a bit more calm as I inch down in dose.  The thought of holding makes me cringe as it never helps. 

 

Has anyone else made this kind of mistake and how did if affect you?  I can't believe how poor my cognition is.  Will it come back?  I'm worried that I have permanent dementia from this poison.

 

Add me to the multiple dumb mistakes list. When I was on X, they were more painful, but I don't notice them so much on L (slow benzo like V). Bumps in the road and keep on going.....

 

As far as the "dementia," I think it gets better once you are off. Can't remember where I read that, though!

[[cr...]]

Thank you, Builder. I thought from reading this forum and others that you should take a longer time than 20 days to go from 1 to zero. I wondered how much I should take in each dose and what was a reasonable, conservative time. Maybe if I updated my siggy people might share their experiences? Sleepy

 

May I please have suggestions for going from 1mg Valium to zero? I will be using liquid Valium and would like opinions on what each dosage should be and for how many days. Dose twice a day. Please, if someone could respond. At the end of a long taper and want to finish as successfully as I can and I do realize we are all different, just need some ideas. Please. Thank you.

 

Assuming you have the 5mg=5ml (1:1) liquid diazepam...

 

 

Dilute 10ml liquid diazepm with 90 ml water.  You will now have 100ml dilute solution, each ml contains .1mg

 

Follow this schedule:

 

1mg      (10ml)

.95mg    (9.5ml)

.90mg    (9.0ml)

.85mg    (8.5ml

.80mg    (8.0ml)

etc...

 

 

Just lower your dose by .05mg (.5ml) each day.  This is the 1mg per 20 days referenced in your siggy.

 

Store the dilute liquid at room temp in a closed glass jar.  On this schedule, your 100mls will last approx 10-12 days.

[[bu...]]

Thank you, Builder. I thought from reading this forum and others that you should take a longer time than 20 days to go from 1 to zero. I wondered how much I should take in each dose and what was a reasonable, conservative time. Maybe if I updated my siggy people might share their experiences? Sleepy

 

May I please have suggestions for going from 1mg Valium to zero? I will be using liquid Valium and would like opinions on what each dosage should be and for how many days. Dose twice a day. Please, if someone could respond. At the end of a long taper and want to finish as successfully as I can and I do realize we are all different, just need some ideas. Please. Thank you.

 

Assuming you have the 5mg=5ml (1:1) liquid diazepam...

 

 

Dilute 10ml liquid diazepm with 90 ml water.  You will now have 100ml dilute solution, each ml contains .1mg

 

Follow this schedule:

 

1mg      (10ml)

.95mg    (9.5ml)

.90mg    (9.0ml)

.85mg    (8.5ml

.80mg    (8.0ml)

etc...

 

 

Just lower your dose by .05mg (.5ml) each day.  This is the 1mg per 20 days referenced in your siggy.

 

Store the dilute liquid at room temp in a closed glass jar.  On this schedule, your 100mls will last approx 10-12 days.

 

Then use a lower cut rate.  That's one of the beauties of a liquid microtaper, you can change it to fit your needs  A .03mg (.3ml) daily cut would take about 30 days, a .02mg (.2ml) would take about 50 days.  Just choose the cut rate that works for you.

 

The rest of instructions will stay the same.  Dilute 10ml Rx liquid V with 90 ml water, and just take whatever daily dose you decide on.

[[Ma...]]

Builder, and all,

Something went wrong with my hormone therapy and I haven't slept in 5 days. I had to take 2 rescue doses of temazapam  this week. This is the worst place I've been in the 1 1/2 year on the forum. I'm going to take remeron tonight. I'm so scared about adding another drug. This drug has been touted a,savior and also bad on this forum. Please tell me something good about it. Will it put me to sleep? How much do I take. It's this or reinstate.

[[bu...]]

 

Please tell me something good about it. Will it put me to sleep? How much do I take. It's this or reinstate.

 

something good about it...

It has a very safe side effect profile, and for most folks has very limited risk of dependency.

 

put me to sleep?

 

At low doses, it is a powerful sleep aid.

 

how much

 

As a sleep aid, 7.5mg will be plenty.

 

I took 30mg/day for about 3 years.  When I stopped, I did a 2 week taper (15mg, 7.5mg, off)  zero wwd sxs.  Afterwards, I occasionally took 7.5mg, or even as little as 3.75mg, for sleep.  Low doses work better for sleep.  And at those doses, there is almost no liklihood of dependency or withdrawal.

 

I suspect there will be folks along with horror stories about Remeron, but here on BB, there are folks with horror stories about every possible drug.  If you're  miserable and suffering, do what you need to do for relief.

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Thanks Builder for your kind reply.

 

Can I ask, if you took remeron for sleep, why 30mg?

[[bu...]]

Thanks Builder for your kind reply.

 

Can I ask, if you took remeron for sleep, why 30mg?

 

No, I started taking it as an AD/anxiolytic.  But once I felt I didn't need it any more, I still occasionally took a small dose as a sleep aid.

 

It really doesn't have an AD/anxiolytic effect at doses less than 15mg.  The low dose sleep effect is really side effect.

[[Ma...]]

Thanks

[[Ra...]]

I have read a lot on this forum about tapering and the different methods.  Also have followed peoples results after some time with different methods.  Hands down I see more success and the least amount of symptoms when I read about daily micro tapering.

 

Im talking about Liquid Titration and Daily Micro Cutting with a Gram Scale. 

 

It seems to be the way to go.  The theory is that when you cut a very small amount each day, you give your body a chance to adjust on a daily basis, instead of sending your body and mind into shock every 2 weeks. 

 

Example:  Say you are taking a 1mg pill a day. You want to taper at a rate of 10% or 0.1 mg every 2 weeks.  Instead of reducing 10% or 0.1mg every 14 days.  You simple reduce at a rate of 0.714% or 0.007 mg a day. 

 

In the example, you are reducing at the same rate but just taking a cut everyday. 

 

I guess I want the discussion opened to talk about the advantages of this method over the cut and hold.

 

***Please note:  I have nothing against cut and hold, it definitely works for a lot of people.  The Ashton Manual and this forum is the reason I have made it this far.***

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Is this the support group here? 

[[Ma...]]

Builder,

I took the Remeron for 2 nites. One night 15mg next nite 7.5. Too much with the trazadone .I want to taper the trazadone (which doesnt work) before I continue.  Would I be dependent  after 2 nights if I stop?

[[bu...]]

Builder,

I took the Remeron for 2 nites. One night 15mg next nite 7.5. Too much with the trazadone .I want to taper the trazadone (which doesnt work) before I continue. Would I be dependent  after 2 nights if I stop?

 

Absolutely not.

[[jo...]]

Hi DLMT group,

 

I started with dry cutting halves and quarters off my first tablets, which were 2mg Clonazepam, and quickly realized that making consistent and accurate cuts were a challenge.  I began daily titration with water, and since have been pleased with both the accuracy PLUS the abilty to initiate daily tapering for a very smooth tapering experience relative to my early cut & hold days.

 

Any information around tapering rates for the final .1mg of Clonazepam would be helpful, as percentages begin to break down at some point.  Is there a point where one should begin a linear tapering rate? 

 

iF A LINEAR TAPERING RATE.. should one taper to .025mg Clonazepam (Ashton recommendation),

OR taper all the way to ZERO?

 

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

I have read a lot on this forum about tapering and the different methods.  Also have followed peoples results after some time with different methods.  Hands down I see more success and the least amount of symptoms when I read about daily micro tapering.

 

Im talking about Liquid Titration and Daily Micro Cutting with a Gram Scale. 

 

It seems to be the way to go.  The theory is that when you cut a very small amount each day, you give your body a chance to adjust on a daily basis, instead of sending your body and mind into shock every 2 weeks. 

 

Example:  Say you are taking a 1mg pill a day. You want to taper at a rate of 10% or 0.1 mg every 2 weeks.  Instead of reducing 10% or 0.1mg every 14 days.  You simple reduce at a rate of 0.714% or 0.007 mg a day. 

 

In the example, you are reducing at the same rate but just taking a cut everyday. 

 

I guess I want the discussion opened to talk about the advantages of this method over the cut and hold.

 

***Please note:  I have nothing against cut and hold, it definitely works for a lot of people.  The Ashton Manual and this forum is the reason I have made it this far.***

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Is this the support group here? 

Hi, RR. I know you are speaking to sharkey, but he hasn't been very active on BB lately. And this group slowed way down when he left. But builder still helps people who stop by this thread. Or you can ask similar questions on the titration board.

 

Gard