The Klonopin Klub#2

[[my...]]

Try,

Not to confuse you...but I'm inclined to agree with CD. The rapid cycling sxs as we go lower should let up from time to time...not get worse.  What CD suggests is that if you push through feeling bad, you may just have to deal with continued sxs once off...it's your call, of course.  18 days really isn't that long in the scheme of things.  I held four months...yes...that's right...last summer.  It was a combination of hard accumulated w/d sxs and family stuff - both good and difficult.  When I resumed my taper last fall, it was a lot easier and I've managed to go fairly consistently ever since.

 

Of course, I'm not saying that you need to hold for such a long time, but the severity of your sxs suggest you may need to slow down a bit.  Plus the fact that you have some outside stressors affecting your taper.  One way or the other, you will figure it out. 

 

Wishing everyone the best.

Mana 

[[ca...]]

Hi all,

 

WR:  thank-you so much for your post about hope and that things will be a lot better off these drugs!

 

Nomo:  you're doing a great job "moving towards freedom"!  Glad you had a nice window-more are coming for sure!

 

Mana:  glad you have found a good tapering pace.  I recently read where Baylissa Frederick said that..."we all deserve medals..." for doing this-totally agree.

 

CD:  glad your are getting ready for colder weather-leaves starting to turn here.  Hang in there!

 

Bennie:  hope the anxiety lets up for you soon.  Great post about what's happening-"no way out except through"...indeed

 

Try:  I haven't been able to hold and recover like I used to for the last couple of weeks.  Windows are few and far between.  I'm trying to push through and reduce anyways...not easy at all.  May try a short MT to .006mg over the next 4-6 days and then jump.  There won't be any K left in the syringe after that, (maybe even before).  Sending you lots of hugs 

Burned, love the( Quaking Aspen) in the fall have you ever looked at the Stems on the leaves their flat is why the move so much so beautiful so enjoy and take it in lots of good healing and distraction in the wilderness ~ CD

[[Bu...]]

That's really cool about the Aspen stems CD, I didn't know that about them.  We're hoping to go leaf peeping in a couple of weeks-should be all gold by then    Take care!

[[Tr...]]

Try,

Not to confuse you...but I'm inclined to agree with CD. The rapid cycling sxs as we go lower should let up from time to time...not get worse.  What CD suggests is that if you push through feeling bad, you may just have to deal with continued sxs once off...it's your call, of course.  18 days really isn't that long in the scheme of things.  I held four months...yes...that's right...last summer.  It was a combination of hard accumulated w/d sxs and family stuff - both good and difficult.  When I resumed my taper last fall, it was a lot easier and I've managed to go fairly consistently ever since.

 

Of course, I'm not saying that you need to hold for such a long time, but the severity of your sxs suggest you may need to slow down a bit.  Plus the fact that you have some outside stressors affecting your taper.  One way or the other, you will figure it out. 

 

Wishing everyone the best.

Mana 

 

 

Hi Mana,

 

I'm open to all suggestions.  You raise some valid points.  The sxs have been brutual, and relief is much needed right now.  Usually by 18 days things have been tolerable with a few windows/semi windows. 

 

I definitely need to make changes to my taper.  I thank you for your support and input.  It is much appreciated.

 

Look at you in the teens!!!

 

Hugs,

TRY

 

[[Co...]]

Hang in there TRY!

 

Thinking about everyone.  Having some strange few days... I don't even know what the heck it is, I don't feel well though.  I was able to go out for a walk early this morning, first time in weeks.  I wake between 4 & 5, which makes for long ass days, especially when I need to go to work.  I have no energy and rapid emotional changes.  Hot flashes, sharp dagger like pain scattered throughout my body, heart palps, visual distortions, and dream like bleed through in the evening (very weird). 

 

We will persevere...

[[Bu...]]

"We will persevere..."  Yes we will Coyote!  Sending healing thoughts 

 

Sending hugs to all 

[[B ...]]

Try,

Thinking of you. Hang in there. I know you will.

Burned,

Wishing things get better for you as you get close.

Mana,

Sounds like you're doing well. Keep it up.

Bennie,

Thanks for the help and support. Sorry for the bad day.

WR,

Thanks for letting us know there is hope.

CD,

Winter? Leaves change? Not here in Florida. Hot....hope you are doing ok.

Nomo,

Glad you had a nice window. Prayers to you to make it.

Coyote,

Sorry for the weird sxs.

Maya,

Thanks for the pm's

 

Prayers to everyone for brighter days.

 

So sorry things are so hard for so many.....

 

B strong

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Cl...]]

Hi Mana,

 

Sorry for my late response, I am glad you are feeling better now and ready to celebrate your anniversary. I agree with WR, everything gets much better with time. Your taper sounds very good to me, Congratulations! During taper yes, I looked much older, specially at the end, at about your dose: no more muscle relaxant. Now, at one year off I may not look older, peaceful expression I am told I have now, but I do feel an old woman already  ...Still I like myself much more now, kind of Rivotril made me live in an unreal word, as if days, months, years were not passing, but time passes and I feel I need to live every second of my life at most. Like: I missed a lot of time while I was on clonazepam (I do not cry about it) so I will not miss more time. In summary, by now try to enjoy your time with your hubbie, once off and with time "enjoying life" is going to be natural, and not like a difficult task as it was for me during taper.

I still can get racing mind, but most times I can stop the "much thinking". There are nights I wake up very early, 2,3,4 AM, but it is not often and now I am able to enjoy my bad nights, meditating, reading, planning work or watching TV.

Acceptance is difficult at the beginning, but then it becomes spontaneously. What we read in success story is true: we become what we were before benzos. Even I did not remember what I was  ...now I do remember who, what, how I was...almost this I am now...we become what we were in both good and bad sense, but now we are wiser, we have developed tools to deal with our demons, to control, to keep them low. Sometimes a bitch demon emerges for a little bit, then I have two options: I can let it be if it is convenient or I can control it...but now I have these two options, when I got stressed for work before benzos or in tolerance and for some months off after taper, I had no option, the dark side of me was unstoppable.

My best tools for control my demons, the worst is "too much thinking", the second is bad temper, I do not think I have a third (bad nights are due to wd because it decreases with time) are breathing deeply, yoga poses and any form of exercise. I am sure tools are different for everyone because we have different demons. What it is similar is wd sxs. For those the answer is time and proper taper. Once we are off, everything becomes much easier. At least I have not read yet, in this great forum, of someone feeling worst than during taper or than in acute in case of CTs.

You are at the end of your taper! I am very happy for you!

 

Ninj, KGirl, Bennie, WR, Can Do, Bets, Try, Glister, Nomo, Burned, Maya,  BStrong, Coyote...I am sending you lots of hugs, lots of healing wishes, yes, I am on the Sundays meditation with you 

 

Paz,

Clona

 

 

 

[[Tr...]]

Hang in there TRY!

 

Thinking about everyone.  Having some strange few days... I don't even know what the heck it is, I don't feel well though.  I was able to go out for a walk early this morning, first time in weeks.  I wake between 4 & 5, which makes for long ass days, especially when I need to go to work.  I have no energy and rapid emotional changes.  Hot flashes, sharp dagger like pain scattered throughout my body, heart palps, visual distortions, and dream like bleed through in the evening (very weird). 

 

We will persevere...

 

Coyote, you too my friend!  Feel better.  Sending you a Hug

 

TRY

[[my...]]

"With time 'enjoying life' is going to be natural, and not like a difficult task"

 

Dearest Clona 

So many thanks....muchos gracias...for your wise words....because all during these last many months, "enjoying" has been exactly that:  a task.  Something I have struggled to do!  That may be one of the hardest things we experience:  the lack of natural joy (most of the time) and yet the desire to be joyful.  Then, of course, the worry that we will never be joyful again.  That is why we look to those who have completed their tapers, like you, dear friend -- and so many others, who can testify that joy is around the corner...simply joy in being alive, in being able to laugh again.  Sometimes..even when I think I'm feeling pretty normal, I find that laughter is not that easy to come by....

 

I think that's why getting outside is healing for us..no pressure...no expectations.. it actually feeds us, natural beauty does.      And..the aspens, CD!  Nomo, do you live in Colorado?  We've spent a lot of time in the Rockies and there is nothing like the aspens in the fall....shot with sunshine, golden on the mountainsides...

 

There is a Hemingway quote from a eulogy he wrote for a friend, that is carved on the Hemingway Memorial outside Ketchum, Idaho.  It is about autumn and life...I'll post it soon as it is very moving.

 

So thank you, Clona...wishing you and everyone a peaceful night.

 

Mana 

 

 

[[ca...]]

Coyote, hang in there things will settle down I promise keep the faith. @ My Mana no I I am not from CO. Northern NY I just know a lot about tree`s just ask lol ! @ Clona great to see ya Amiga `@ (Everyone )else I send Healing Huggs and me well I am up at 4:15 am Dog was barking to go out SMH !!!!!  ~ CD

[[...]]

Good Morning Fellow Soldiers!

 

My profile pic is a sideways view of some of the army guys I see every day on my walks.  They stopped when I asked if I could take their photo this morning.  Don't they look YOUNG??  They run 12 miles in boots with 50 pounds in their backpacks.  On days when they don't carry the backpacks, they look like they are FLYING!  Just as we will feel when the endurance training disguised as withdrawal lifts off us and navigating life will feel like a breeze!  Personally, I cannot WAIT! 

 

Last week I saw the man who runs dragging a tire behind him, but he wasn't dragging the tire.  Wow, he was smiling and free!  I said, "You aren't dragging a tire today!"  He said, "No, not TODAY!"

 

I thought, "That is how I am going to feel!" 

 

Yesterday was very rough.  Today is much better.  It is a window, but my baseline is also getting better after every wave, just as many of you told me.  I didn't know if I could believe it, but it is true.  The morning anxiety is getting better.  It seems my muscles all clench up one day along with despair and anxiety; then the next day my body and brain are comparatively free and clear (there is always a shadow of muscle pain and a shadow of anxiety, but compared to the past 10 months, it feels like heaven on the good days.)  I am trying to stay grounded and not hang on too tight to the good days, so that I am not too shot down on the bad days.  I can see on the good days that this groundedness and equilibrium will make all of life easier when the chemical crap storm is over. 

 

Clona, what a pleasure to see you and be encouraged by your post jump life! 

BStrong, I continue praying for you on my walks!

Bennie, How is today?

CanDo,  Gotta love those doggies, huh?  How much sleep are you getting lately?

WR, I hope today is a fun day!

MyMana,  I am not from CO either.  I am in GA.  My 6 am walks have been like walks in hot soup all summer!  The last 3 days it is cooler in the mornings which feels like a gift and a promise of better times.

TRY and Coyote, I hope relief comes SOON!!  Keep going, day by day.

Burned, I am rooting for your Jump!  I wish I were on that ledge with you, but I have to stay in bounds and WAIT.  I vicariously jump along with everyone!  What a strange little BB world we share, huh?  Anyway, we are all rooting for you, Burned!!!

 

I'm off to try and calmly do the grocery store and errands.  Boy, what My Mana quoted from Clona is what we crave, huh?  "With time 'enjoying life,' is going to be natural, and not like a difficult task."  Mmmmmm!  Sounds GOOD!!

 

Nomo.

 

 

 

[[Be...]]

Clona,

Loved your post. Thank you. 

 

CD and Mana,

It's so cool to know that the Aspens are clones! The underground roots systems make them identical genetically. I miss the the waves of changing leaf colors in New England. The seasonal changes in SF Bay Area are less dramatic, except for when first rainstorm arrives in October. Aaaaah. My recovery seems to be holding the same weather pattern and I can only hope for aaaaaah.

 

Going to PDTR this morning. Feeling buzzy 

 

Wishing everyone a good day!

Bennie

 

[[kl...]]

Hello.

 

I'm a bit confused . Some people suggest direct tapers, some prefer switching to diazepam.

 

Should I believe the Ashton manual, or do a direct taper ?

[[Be...]]

Hello.

 

I'm a bit confused . Some people suggest direct tapers, some prefer switching to diazepam.

 

Should I believe the Ashton manual, or do a direct taper ?

 

Klonn,

 

I am an advocate of sticking with the poison I know. Klonopin has a long half life unlike Xanax or Ativan, so there's not the concern with interdose withdrawal. Some people tolerate V, some don't. I say, why bother unless you have an issue with K? Sleep may be disrupted no matter what during withdrawal, and for that there are many coping skills and non-Rx drugs to try. Direct tapering is not only possible but in my book, preferable. And the same Ashton-like percentage drop of 10% every 14 days is applicable. The rule of thumb is not to push it; everyone wants off yesterday. Going fast is not about how well you can gird your loins, but the fact that GABA receptors are down-regulated and the brain needs time to repair, make more, or make work-arounds. So, if interested in direct tapering, you may wish to use a scale and file, or learn how to do liquid titration. Many here use the scale. Either way, when your dose gets in range of .50 mg give or take, you'll also have the possibility to finesse tolerability of symptoms by Microtapering—make small cuts more frequently, to help ease off. MT is akin to going down a ramp versus jumping from landing to landing with larger cuts. Choice is yours, but this is my perspective.

 

Best, Bennie

[[li...]]

I'm giving the diazepam another spin against better judgement. Everything is getting harder to tolerate.

 

I just have a question. I just talked to someone in a PM and I'll just give a quote from that rather than rephrasing it.

 

'It seems my body is pumping out stress hormones (on the clonazepam), breaking down muscle tissue, causing an accumulation of visceral fat. (at times, breaking down subcutaneous fat) There is some kind of interdose withdrawal, on the clonazepam that tends to manifest itself as cognitive issues or time appearing to move slower.

On the diazepam, interdose withdrawal manifests itself as akathisia, elevated heartbeat and adrenaline ... to mention a few issues.

 

On clonazepam I can't feel pain in what's left of my muscles, on diazepam it seems I can.

 

It's not just the drug, my poor health causes these issues and the drugs make it worse ...'

 

It's not just the drug. The GP (and two other docs he referred me to, but here the referral letter is everything) had the attitude 'just get off the drug' or 'it's mental'.

 

I know that, for example, if my body composition (muscles) was better my body wouldn't have such a preference for pumping out stress hormones (suspected low levels of thyroid hormone, HGH, testosterone etc. you get the picture). If I had been functioning better on a hormonal level, my body composition would be better and interdose withdrawal would be less ...

Is that kind of thing normal 'get off the drug first' ? That the GP hid his 'perspective' that is was 'mental' is something I consider an act of betrayal, I wouldn't have wasted that much time or made the choices I had (originally there was an unrelated health issue).

 

Now, I could pay some things out of pocket ... up to a point. Say, I went to an endrocrinologist (not sure it would work!), could those hormones actually be managed better ? It is obvious that the clonazepam affects my hormones sometimes very acutely and directly ... I'm not in the USA, and the customer doesn't always come first ... What do you think ? I can easily imagine that stress hormones suppress thyroid hormones, testosterone, HGH etc. Of course, there are fluctuations during the day.

 

I have (again!) considered dosing the clonazepam twice a day, one of the major issues would be sleep. Sleeping would just get much harder. Especially falling asleep.

 

As a separate question, what would your doc(s) do ?

[[ca...]]

Hello.

 

I'm a bit confused . Some people suggest direct tapers, some prefer switching to diazepam.

 

Should I believe the Ashton manual, or do a direct taper ?

Nomo, sleep lol well usually get 4-6 hours but always broken and then the 4 am wake jolt ! @ Klonn I did a partial c/o from k to v . Getting off the k was rough but finding it hard to drop the v so to do over I would have just tapered straight off k FWIW V is a lot different then k as in when you feel the cut very unpredictable  so I hope I was some help ! Huggs to ( ALL ) ~ CD

[[my...]]

Oh my!  CD...I KNEW you were from upstate NY!!!  But I didn't know you were our second resident tree/leaf expert - after Bennie of course.......I just figured since you were all discussing Aspens...that we were talking about Colorado or somewhere else in the Rockies...DO Aspens grow in the northeast?  I spent a year on the coast of Maine and remember birch trees (I think) but not Aspens...birch trees also in the upper midwest...I used to spend summers in the north woods of Wisconsin and the forests were all birch....beautiful...but not as spectacular as the aspens in the Rockies.  And Nomo...I didn't know where you lived!    sorry!!

 

Yes -- to Klonn -- 'the devil you know' is at least a good way to go for the first few months.  I have often thought of crossing over to Valium but now am glad I didn't...

 

 

 

 

[[Bu...]]

Evening everyone,

 

B Strong:  thank-you and thinking of you, too!

 

Clona:  thanks for the great post and glad you are doing so well!

 

Bennie:  hope your PDTR appointment went well!

 

Mana:  Fall is such a beautiful time of year.  I live in Colorado and love looking at the Aspen this time of year, too.  Hope your are doing ok today.

 

CD:  hope you get a better night's sleep tonight!

 

Nomo:  so happy to hear your baseline is getting better, even with the roller coaster-that's good news and shows you are healing!  Thanks for your support, too

 

klonn:  Welcome!  I stuck with the devil I knew (klonopin) after the NP overseeing my taper thought it was a better way for me to proceed.  I'm using a liquid K compound from a compounding pharmacy to taper.  Everyone is so different when it comes to tapering though.

 

Liberty:  stress from the taper can send cortisol levels soaring which affects everything:  sleep, muscle mass, adding fat, energy, digestion-you name it.  I had bad adrenal fatigue, (really CNS burnout) before benzos but, have still been able to recover from it even during tapering. Be careful with any hormones-we are so sensitive and can have paradoxical reactions.  I found changing from one dose a day to two didn't affect my sleep at all and I felt more even emotionally.  Have you had your cortisol levels checked?  They are supposed be low in the evening but, can get out of balance and become too high in the evening-so it can become harder to fall and stay asleep.  No doubt benzos can affect cortisol levels in addition to so many other things.

 

I woke up today on edge and really wired/hyper.  No fun driving-had to really deep breath and focus.  Better this evening.  Can't wait til this roller coaster marathon in over!!

 

Hugs to all 

[Guest [Gi...]]

Hi Klonn,

Bennie gave you good advise as she always does. Actually ,I started microtapering at a higher dose than .50 and like microtapering way better than direct tapering as you are feeling gradual reductions vs. larger cuts. Either way,this is very hard to do, but somehow you just keep pushing through. I started at 2.0 also. Some here started at higher doses. Hang in there and keep the faith that you can do it.

Hello to everyone here- CD,Bennie, WR, Clona, Try,Burned, B-Strong, Mana, Liberty,Coyote, and anyone else that I missed.

Sincerely,

Gilster

[[li...]]

Again, referring to #240.

 

And 'Liberty:  stress from the taper can send cortisol levels soaring which affects everything:  sleep, muscle mass, adding fat, energy, digestion-you name it.  I had bad adrenal fatigue, (really CNS burnout) before benzos but, have still been able to recover from it even during tapering. Be careful with any hormones-we are so sensitive and can have paradoxical reactions.  I found changing from one dose a day to two didn't affect my sleep at all and I felt more even emotionally.  Have you had your cortisol levels checked?  They are supposed be low in the evening but, can get out of balance and become too high in the evening-so it can become harder to fall and stay asleep.  No doubt benzos can affect cortisol levels in addition to so many other things.'

 

I think that the decline of my health has messed up my circadian rhythm. Now, on the other hand, clonazepam itself does that too. It sort of shifts the circadian rhythm a few hours forward.

Based on what I feel, it seems like after I take my clonazepam dose at about 9 PM my body starts producing hormones -glucocorticoids, including cortisol. It varies a bit, though. I haven't had THAT measured.

Not just stress from the taper, that happened when I was not tapering. I never (for the most part) had that before I started that foolish and failed lorazepam taper early 2015. I guess: tolerance withdrawal, interdose withdrawal, paradoxical reactions, chronic stress, long term lack of sleep, poor health.

 

When I took diazepam yesterday afternoon, I felt 'wasted' (to use a phrase someone used when she was tapering pheno). When I looked in the mirror, I even looked a bit like it.

I woke up after sleeping only a few hours. I might have had a little bit of sleep later (also a minor adrenaline surge in between), but it was closer to a nighmare/unpleasant lucid dream.

 

My health is definitely affecting my reaction to the drug and vice versa.

Post #240 : Any reactions ?

[[NY...]]

Again, referring to #240.

 

And 'Liberty:  stress from the taper can send cortisol levels soaring which affects everything:  sleep, muscle mass, adding fat, energy, digestion-you name it.  I had bad adrenal fatigue, (really CNS burnout) before benzos but, have still been able to recover from it even during tapering. Be careful with any hormones-we are so sensitive and can have paradoxical reactions.  I found changing from one dose a day to two didn't affect my sleep at all and I felt more even emotionally.  Have you had your cortisol levels checked?  They are supposed be low in the evening but, can get out of balance and become too high in the evening-so it can become harder to fall and stay asleep.  No doubt benzos can affect cortisol levels in addition to so many other things.'

 

I think that the decline of my health has messed up my circadian rhythm. Now, on the other hand, clonazepam itself does that too. It sort of shifts the circadian rhythm a few hours forward.

Based on what I feel, it seems like after I take my clonazepam dose at about 9 PM my body starts producing hormones -glucocorticoids, including cortisol. It varies a bit, though. I haven't had THAT measured.

Not just stress from the taper, that happened when I was not tapering. I never (for the most part) had that before I started that foolish and failed lorazepam taper early 2015. I guess: tolerance withdrawal, interdose withdrawal, paradoxical reactions, chronic stress, long term lack of sleep, poor health.

 

When I took diazepam yesterday afternoon, I felt 'wasted' (to use a phrase someone used when she was tapering pheno). When I looked in the mirror, I even looked a bit like it.

I woke up after sleeping only a few hours. I might have had a little bit of sleep later (also a minor adrenaline surge in between), but it was closer to a nighmare/unpleasant lucid dream.

 

My health is definitely affecting my reaction to the drug and vice versa.

Post #240 : Any reactions ?

 

Hi Liberty,

 

I'm not sure what your health issues are outside of benzos.  I can offer (again  ) that I felt various degrees of unwell, sick, for about 14 years while on klonopin in tolerance wd, and for the final two years on my full dose, I was almost completely disabled - had to quit my full time job for a work-from-home gig, etc.  I knew that K was bad for me and I needed to get off, but I had no idea how much Klonopin was making me suffer, and wasn't totally convinced until I started to taper, and could see my physical (and mental health) dramatically improve as my dose was lowered.  Now at 2 months off, I'm feeling healthier than I have in my life, so it was indeed the Klonopin - 100%. Even my GI that was WRECKED in tolerance withdrawal is 100% fine now.  I'm not sure how your story getting off benzos will unfold, but I hope that it also brings you peace and good health.

 

I had poor sleep like you during most of the time on Klonopin (unless the dose had just been raised), and was given Traz, Ambien, Lunesta,  Remeron - all temporary band-aids that made me feel worse eventually by just piling on the side effects. And like you, I also felt worse after I dosed (once per day), and best after a full 24 hours had passed, so assuming it was "paradoxical" for me as well.  The cortisol surges, etc are all very normal for people in tolerance withdrawal and of course in full blown taper withdrawal.  I have a cupboard full of adrenal supplements that I had been taking for years to combat this.  Now I need none of them off K, although once in awhile I still get a surge at night. 

 

I know our experiences and general health issues are different, but I do know that getting off benzos will make anyone healthier in body and mind. You are not the exception I'm sure, even if other health issues persist.  You will be at least giving yourself a chance to be well again.  IMO, being healthy on benzos is impossible, especially long term.

 

In solidarity,

WR

[[Bu...]]

Hi WR-hope you are having a good day 

 

Liberty:  Before benzos, my adrenal fatigue/GI issues eventually got so bad, they kept me from sleeping, eating and many more things.  After starting Xanax and clonazepam-they didn't help either as I was quickly in tolerance withdrawal.  Even though the benzos messed me up more in many ways, I've still been able to heal quite a bit from adrenal fatigue and I'm grateful.  Reducing my dose has been incredibly difficult but, despite all the crazy symptoms, my baseline is better overall.  I can feel my old self returning, (ever so slowly), and that helps keep me moving forward.

 

Hope you find a good taper rate and hang in there!

[[2t...]]

So I am sure all you people on the Klonopin club thread are going to say, not this again.

I have to ask though, as I am getting through a cut and hold klonopin taper with a start dose of 0.5mg and I am now down to 0.156mg (the strange qty is another story) over 4 and a bit months.

What is the typical jumping off point when it comes to klonopin? I understand that I can jump at any point I feel, either high or bleed it to death and go really low but there must be some general thoughts as to what is a normal range that has worked for the majority in the past.

 

Thanks for putting up with what I assume is a stale subject. 

[[ca...]]

So I am sure all you people on the Klonopin club thread are going to say, not this again.

I have to ask though, as I am getting through a cut and hold klonopin taper with a start dose of 0.5mg and I am now down to 0.156mg (the strange qty is another story) over 4 and a bit months.

What is the typical jumping off point when it comes to klonopin? I understand that I can jump at any point I feel, either high or bleed it to death and go really low but there must be some general thoughts as to what is a normal range that has worked for the majority in the past.

 

Thanks for putting up with what I assume is a stale subject.

2 trusting, most take it down as low as they can. Not sure if your using a scale or not as most of us who dry cut k used a scale and mostly thru the mg equation out and doped in grams !