Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

 

Oh, if almond milk lasts 15 days, then no worries.

 

However, I still think you need the 1 mL of Vodka because benzodiazepine are not water (or milk) soluble.  While it is true the milk fat will help suspense the benzo, it will not break down the pill.  So if you don't use Vodka as an agent, I think you should let it sit for 24 hours so the pill breaks down in the almond milk. 

 

Builder - what say you?

 

Actually, benzo are highly "milk soluble"  More specifically, benzos are highly lipid (fat) soluble, and they are readily dissolved by the high fat content of milk.

[[...]]

Builder,

 

I am so glad you replied to Wonderwomen about solubility and milk.

 

I read benzos were not water-soluble so I was worried about Allmond milk because she won’t be able to see the particles in that cloud of milk and then how would she know it’s ever broken down. So if you’re right she has no problems getting a uniform mixture.

 

Thanks

[[bu...]]

Benzos (with a couple of exceptions) are not water-soluble.  They can be converted to a water-based liquid by first dissolving them in a solvent like alcohol or propylene glycol.  All of the Rx liquid benzos use either a alcohol or PG solvent and are then diluted with water.

 

Benzo are highly lipid soluble and can readily be dissolved in any fatty liquid.

[[Wo...]]

My pill dissolved. I can try tonight. My only question left is the amount of actual med in the liquid seems so variable and there’s less of a way to know what the percent of pill to liquid is than if I’m just weighing it out on my gram scale.

 

Maybe I’m wrong about this but it seems with each draw (each days worth) there would be a variable amount of med which defeats the purpose of maintaining consistency.

 

Wow I’m glad I’m in a window and can even think that complex!

 

Thoughts?

 

I have sent an email to my doc to see if i can ingest alcohol for medical reasons. If she gives me the green light I can go that route. I’d still have the same question as above.

[[...]]

Well it depends if you used a little alcohol to dissolve it.

 

The way I understand it, if you used alcohol first and added milk or water, you get a solution in which the particles are uniform and you don't have to worry about variability.

 

If you just mix with water, then you get a suspension and you must be sure to stir or shake before each use.

 

This video explains the difference between solution and suspension.

 

[[bu...]]

My pill dissolved. I can try tonight. My only question left is the amount of actual med in the liquid seems so variable and there’s less of a way to know what the percent of pill to liquid is than if I’m just weighing it out on my gram scale.

 

Maybe I’m wrong about this but it seems with each draw (each days worth) there would be a variable amount of med which defeats the purpose of maintaining consistency.

 

Wow I’m glad I’m in a window and can even think that complex!

 

Thoughts?

 

I have sent an email to my doc to see if i can ingest alcohol for medical reasons. If she gives me the green light I can go that route. I’d still have the same question as above.

 

The amount in your liquid doesn't vary any more than the pills you have been taking.  Your taking the same pill as before, but you converted it to a liquid.

 

You can swallow the tablet, or you can dissolve and drink it.  You are getting the same amount of benzo either way.

 

BTW, if you want to talk to your doc aobut "ingesting alcohol" make sure he knows your talking about a few millilters, NOT few ounces.

[[Wo...]]

Okay thanks. Need to clear it with hepatologist.

[[Wo...]]

Hi everyone I am looking into getting a precision scale to dry cut the rest of my taper instead of the liquid. I did a search for a .0001 gram scale and saw somewhere here had posted about one. They are super expensive. Does anyone use a precision scale and if so would you recommend the brand? Or any other helpful tips. Thanks!

[[Re...]]

Hi everyone I am looking into getting a precision scale to dry cut the rest of my taper instead of the liquid. I did a search for a .0001 gram scale and saw somewhere here had posted about one. They are super expensive. Does anyone use a precision scale and if so would you recommend the brand? Or any other helpful tips. Thanks!

 

What I learned about precision scales is that repeatability is critical.  That is to say, you may find a scale that can read to 0.0001 grams, but it's accuracy might be repeatable only to 0.001 grams.  So, in order to get as accurate a reading as possible, you'd have to measure your sample 10 times and take the average of those readings.  So, if you spend the money, buy a scale with 0.0001 gram readability and also accuracy.  That puts you into at least the 1100.00 to 1500.00 US dollar range.  But if you need that dry-cut accuracy, then there is no value in buying a cheaper scale that has readability to 0.0001 grams but poor accuracy.  The end result is you won't be able to have confidence in the accuracy of your measurements.  I learned that lesson the hard way with a scale I spent almost  500.00 dollars on.  It was a waste of money and honestly, not much more accurate than the little gemini scales so many of us use.  Yeah, my scale had readability to 0.0001 grams, but every measurement I took was off by as much as .0005 grams.  So, needless to say, I eventually just went to liquid titration.

 

Anyway, here's a link to a good company with quality equipment.  The nice thing is you can call them and talk to their customer service about your needs and they can direct you to the proper equipment that can provide the accuracy and repeatability you need: 

 

https://www.summitmeasurement.net/Analytical-Balances-Summit-Measurement-s/33.htm

 

All the best!

 

-RST

 

[[...]]

That is some good advice Realslimtaper - thanks for sharing your experience with scales.

 

I had the same concerns about repeatably. If I breath on the scale, things change when my dose is so low.

 

I got around this by using crushing my Klonopin into a powder and mixing with Microcrystalline Cellulose.

 

With some careful math, I computed the ratio I needed - there is about 17 times more Microcrystalline Cellulose than Klonopin in the mix.  Then I measure what I need to get my dose.  By doing this, my measurements on the scale become less critical and my dose is reliable.

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

The tablets you have been taking/are taking vary 5-10%  from tablet to tablet anyway.  There really is no need to obsess about scale accuracy/precision.

 

[[...]]

I thought the tablets only varied that much if you change between manufacturers. I thought if you stayed with the same manufacturer the tablets are highly accurate in the dose from pill to pill.

[[bu...]]

I thought the tablets only varied that much if you change between manufacturers. I thought if you stayed with the same manufacturer the tablets are highly accurate in the dose from pill to pill.

 

The will vary that much in each batch.

[[Ul...]]

I thought the tablets only varied that much if you change between manufacturers. I thought if you stayed with the same manufacturer the tablets are highly accurate in the dose from pill to pill.

 

The will vary that much in each batch.

 

Holy cow! That's NUTS. No wonder I'm bouncing all over the place at times. Others too. I bet that 5-10% really adds up a lot when people get down to really low doses. Onwards we go.

 

Thanks, Builder.

 

Jeff

[[bu...]]

I thought the tablets only varied that much if you change between manufacturers. I thought if you stayed with the same manufacturer the tablets are highly accurate in the dose from pill to pill.

 

The will vary that much in each batch.

 

Holy cow! That's NUTS. No wonder I'm bouncing all over the place at times. Others too. I bet that 5-10% really adds up a lot when people get down to really low doses. Onwards we go.

 

Thanks, Builder.

 

Jeff

 

Well, no, it doesn't "add up".  On the contrary, the random  variation from dose to dose self-cancels.  There can be some issues with short half-life benzos like sanax and Ativan, but with konopin or valium you would probably never know the difference.

[[Wo...]]

Hi RST

 

I appreciate your comment about accuracy.

 

I think accuracy is a gamble with any tapering method including DLMT and compounding pharmacies. I think accuracy also changes from whole pill to whole pill as builder mentioned. At this point at .032 mg klonopin and having used a dry cut method with the Gemini gram scale for 10 months starting at .25 I’m sure accuracy has never been consistent.

 

What I do want is to be able to get below .011 grams in weight on a MT where I can read the next decimal and then hold when I need to. Because I’m nearing a finish line I just want the peace of mind that comes from more information about my dose. I already weigh my pill over and over using the Gemini scale so that’s nothing new.

 

I’ll call the company I went with again tomorrow and ask about accuracy. They have a 2 year warranty and great customer service so before it arrives and i use it for the first time I’ll just double check. It was pretty expensive.

 

At this point I’ve surrendered to this process. I’ve thought long and hard about continuing to dry cut vs liquid and I know that symptoms will happen, unavoidable with tapering a benzo. So now it’s just about continuing on the road and getting it done.

 

Thanks all!

[[...]]

I agree the pills vary up to 10% pill to pill even in the same batch. This is allowed by the FDA. I weighed a bunch a pills early on and found this variation. The fluctuation didn't seem to affect me. But now that I'm doing DMT, I weigh my whole dose- I dont have (as much) fluctuation since I'm going by weight. I know how much a certain amt of mg weighs. Even if it's not exactly accurate, i am consistent and slowly decreasing a long acting drug.

[[Re...]]

I agree the pills vary up to 10% pill to pill even in the same batch. This is allowed by the FDA. I weighed a bunch a pills early on and found this variation. The fluctuation didn't seem to affect me. But now that I'm doing DMT, I weigh my whole dose- I dont have (as much) fluctuation since I'm going by weight. I know how much a certain amt of mg weighs. Even if it's not exactly accurate, i am consistent and slowly decreasing a long acting drug.

 

Variations never bothered me before either, but they do now.  The gabapentin capsules (100mg) that I use to titrate vary about 6% on average.  I use 3 capsules to make 300ml of solution so I'm probably pretty consistent with the amount I actually ingest while dosing.  That being said, I actually feel a reduction of 1mg.  I start to feel it about 3 days after the cut.  Keep in mind I dose 49 mg morning and midday and and now, 48mg at nite.  So, my plasma level is very very low for gabapentin yet I still suffer significantly when cutting. 

 

-RST

[[Wo...]]

RST

 

I got the scale last night and can’t believe how HUGE it is. I was not prepared for that. You are right. The third decimal is bouncing all over the place making it completely inaccurate. I weighed the pill over and over and it never settled on a number. I’ll call them Monday but that was a big disappointment. I’m hoping there’s something I’m doing wrong and I’ll keep the faith or just send it back.

[[Ul...]]

I thought the tablets only varied that much if you change between manufacturers. I thought if you stayed with the same manufacturer the tablets are highly accurate in the dose from pill to pill.

 

The will vary that much in each batch.

 

Holy cow! That's NUTS. No wonder I'm bouncing all over the place at times. Others too. I bet that 5-10% really adds up a lot when people get down to really low doses. Onwards we go.

 

Thanks, Builder.

 

Jeff

 

Well, no, it doesn't "add up".  On the contrary, the random  variation from dose to dose self-cancels.  There can be some issues with short half-life benzos like sanax and Ativan, but with konopin or valium you would probably never know the difference.

 

Thanks, Builder. Sort of along those lines, about how long are k tablets "fresh" or safe to use once they're picked up at the pharmacy? I don't know what the shelf-life is. I asked the pharmacist and she didn't know. Nice, huh?

 

Thanks, sir!

 

Jeff

[[bu...]]

 

The universal shelf-life that pharmacies attach to meds is 12 months, but the actual (verified) "shelf-life" is at least 5-6 years.

 

Over time, there may be some physical degradation of the tablets,, but the active ingredient, clonazepam, will remain stable and fully potent.

[[Re...]]

RST

 

I got the scale last night and can’t believe how HUGE it is. I was not prepared for that. You are right. The third decimal is bouncing all over the place making it completely inaccurate. I weighed the pill over and over and it never settled on a number. I’ll call them Monday but that was a big disappointment. I’m hoping there’s something I’m doing wrong and I’ll keep the faith or just send it back.

 

Sorry  to hear that.  A few questions.....  Did you ensure it was perfectly balanced on a sturdy table / surface?  How much air was circulating in the room where you've got the scale placed?  Even tiny air currents can influence the scale.  Did you use the draft shield (enclosure) each time you did a measurement?  Any one of those things could cause your scale to 'wander' and have difficulty making a precise and repeatable measurement. 

 

These are the kind of issues that caused me to go to liquid titration.  I am so sensitive to cuts that I found I could only be confident of my accuracy in micro-cutting by using a titration method.

 

-RST

[[...]]

RST

 

I got the scale last night and can’t believe how HUGE it is. I was not prepared for that. You are right. The third decimal is bouncing all over the place making it completely inaccurate. I weighed the pill over and over and it never settled on a number. I’ll call them Monday but that was a big disappointment. I’m hoping there’s something I’m doing wrong and I’ll keep the faith or just send it back.

 

Sorry  to hear that.  A few questions.....  Did you ensure it was perfectly balanced on a sturdy table / surface?  How much air was circulating in the room where you've got the scale placed?  Even tiny air currents can influence the scale.  Did you use the draft shield (enclosure) each time you did a measurement?  Any one of those things could cause your scale to 'wander' and have difficulty making a precise and repeatable measurement. 

 

These are the kind of issues that caused me to go to liquid titration.  I am so sensitive to cuts that I found I could only be confident of my accuracy in micro-cutting by using a titration method.

 

-RST

I agree with realslimtaper - air currents affect my readings.  Even my breath on the scale causes this problem.

So I also decided my only choice was to do a dilution taper except instead of liquid, I use the dry ingredient WW23 recommended.  It is been so nice to have 30 days of pre-made pills each with a 0.001 mg reduction of klonopin. 

 

[[Su...]]

RST

 

I got the scale last night and can’t believe how HUGE it is. I was not prepared for that. You are right. The third decimal is bouncing all over the place making it completely inaccurate. I weighed the pill over and over and it never settled on a number. I’ll call them Monday but that was a big disappointment. I’m hoping there’s something I’m doing wrong and I’ll keep the faith or just send it back.

 

Sorry  to hear that.  A few questions.....  Did you ensure it was perfectly balanced on a sturdy table / surface?  How much air was circulating in the room where you've got the scale placed?  Even tiny air currents can influence the scale.  Did you use the draft shield (enclosure) each time you did a measurement?  Any one of those things could cause your scale to 'wander' and have difficulty making a precise and repeatable measurement. 

 

These are the kind of issues that caused me to go to liquid titration.  I am so sensitive to cuts that I found I could only be confident of my accuracy in micro-cutting by using a titration method.

 

-RST

I agree with realslimtaper - air currents affect my readings.  Even my breath on the scale causes this problem.

So I also decided my only choice was to do a dilution taper except instead of liquid, I use the dry ingredient WW23 recommended.  It is been so nice to have 30 days of pre-made pills each with a 0.001 mg reduction of klonopin.

I’m curious, how are you able to cut so accurately with dry powder?

I’m doing part liquid part dry— but really like the sounds of havya month prepped at a time.

Can you explayhow you do that?

Thanks

SS

[[...]]

RST

 

I got the scale last night and can’t believe how HUGE it is. I was not prepared for that. You are right. The third decimal is bouncing all over the place making it completely inaccurate. I weighed the pill over and over and it never settled on a number. I’ll call them Monday but that was a big disappointment. I’m hoping there’s something I’m doing wrong and I’ll keep the faith or just send it back.

 

Sorry  to hear that.  A few questions.....  Did you ensure it was perfectly balanced on a sturdy table / surface?  How much air was circulating in the room where you've got the scale placed?  Even tiny air currents can influence the scale.  Did you use the draft shield (enclosure) each time you did a measurement?  Any one of those things could cause your scale to 'wander' and have difficulty making a precise and repeatable measurement. 

 

These are the kind of issues that caused me to go to liquid titration.  I am so sensitive to cuts that I found I could only be confident of my accuracy in micro-cutting by using a titration method.

 

-RST

I agree with realslimtaper - air currents affect my readings.  Even my breath on the scale causes this problem.

So I also decided my only choice was to do a dilution taper except instead of liquid, I use the dry ingredient WW23 recommended.  It is been so nice to have 30 days of pre-made pills each with a 0.001 mg reduction of klonopin.

I’m curious, how are you able to cut so accurately with dry powder?

I’m doing part liquid part dry— but really like the sounds of havya month prepped at a time.

Can you explayhow you do that?

Thanks

SS

Hi SufferingSixty,

 

It is perhaps easiest to just type what I did for my most recent batch.

 

I was at 0.125 mg Klonopin per day and I wanted to taper 0.001 mg less per day for 31 days.

 

Here are the steps:

(1) Buy a gram scale from Amazon:  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B011J88S8M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(2) Buy Gel Capsules from Amazon:  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E40DJ82/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

(3) Buy Microcrystalline Cellulose from Amazaon:  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B074HGD7LV/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

(4) Crush 7 of my 0.5 mg Klonopin tablets to get 1.19 grams into a powder (I used a bowl and spoon)

(5) Add 10.01 grams of Microcrystalline Cellulose

(6) Stir - this mixes very well - the microcrystalline cellulose is made for this.

(7) To make it easy to fill your gel capsules, do this:

      (a) Pull the gel capsule apart

      (a) Take a piece of thick cardboard and punch a hole in the middle

      (b) Put the cardboard on the scale and put the large part of the 1/2 of gel capsule in the hole so it stands up

      © Now zero your scale

      (d) Now remove the 1/2 gel capsule and fill it (see my list below of how much for each day's capsule) and weigh it

( Handy notes:

    (a) When filling capsules, don't try to do them in order.  Just fill one, weigh it, and see which day it is closest to.

    (b) I bought a 30 day pill box so as soon as I fill a capsule, I place it in order into the pill box (labeled day 1 to 30)

 

day grams

1 0.400

2 0.397

3 0.393

4 0.390

5 0.387

6 0.383

7 0.380

8 0.377

9 0.373

10 0.370

11 0.367

12 0.363

13 0.360

14 0.357

15 0.353

16 0.350

17 0.347

18 0.343

19 0.340

20 0.337

21 0.333

22 0.330

23 0.327

24 0.323

25 0.320

26 0.317

27 0.313

28 0.310

29 0.307

30 0.303

31 0.300

 

If you have a different starting dose or a different type of Klonopin tablet or want a different taper rate, let me know and I will crunch the math for you.