Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[al...]]

I strongly believe that once tolerance withdrawal occurs while on a z-drug, tapering is no longer an option. Interdose withdrawal symptoms will be too severe. There was no way that I would have been able to continue taking Ambien on a tapering basis. I had already reached a critical situation and had to get off the drug as fast as possible. I did read that you should not cold-turkey because of the risk of seizures, but getting off within 10 days or so is safe. Fast or slow, severe insomnia is probably going to be a pretty big challenge.

[[bu...]]

I strongly believe that once tolerance withdrawal occurs while on a z-drug, tapering is no longer an option. Interdose withdrawal symptoms will be too severe. There was no way that I would have been able to continue taking Ambien on a tapering basis. I had already reached a critical situation and had to get off the drug as fast as possible. I did read that you should not cold-turkey because of the risk of seizures, but getting off within 10 days or so is safe. Fast or slow, severe insomnia is probably going to be a pretty big challenge.

 

Agreed, I did do a slow taper from klonopin and I feel that was helpful for my brain to catch up by by the time that I was only on ambien the daily tolerance was so bad. I have my moments since a rapid taper just over two months ago, but not bad given that I took ambien and klonopin both for over 16 years. I was really suffering until I got off of the ambien. I have days where I feel dizzy, joint and muscle pain, head issues etc. but nothing like the tolerance withdrawal days. I will take this anyday over that.

[[bu...]]

Yes, I did get a scale and shaved 5% off of a 10 mg Ambien pill for the first time last night.  I got less than 3 hours of sleep (that's been my pattern for weeks) and have had the shakes, racing heart, rapid breathing and feeling of doom and dread all day.  And this is just day 1 of my attempt at a gradual taper.  Has anyone else had this reaction to such a small cut at the beginning?

 

I'm still looking for a crossover schedule from 10 mg Ambien to 5 mg Valium. I am clear on the equivalencies...I just need a schedule.  I posted this same question on the Substitution Taper thread, but am not getting a response. 

 

If my doctor won't reinstate my 10 mg prescription, I may be forced to go the crossover route which I'm afraid will be like a cold turkey for me considering how my body is reacting to just a 5% cut.  I really messed up by even mentioning Ashton to my doctor since she was insulted and dismissive, not only of her, but of tapering gradually with a gram scale.  She said she'd never heard of such a thing.

 

Yes I had those symptoms when I tried to cut that much. Can you take smaller cuts very few days instead?

[[bu...]]

Hi everyone

 

Just a short update- Down to 1 mg from 11.25. Feeling much better. Head is much clearer and most nights I sleep ok. I do have siginifant  problems with falling asleep and somtimes fall asleep very late.  So far only use antihistamine low dos for sleep. Hope I can continue this way. Hope to jump by the end of Nov and hope so much that post jump things will not get worse.

for me- going slow works well.

Lots of love

 

Carem

 

So glad to hear, congrats!!!

[[ga...]]

If I do smaller cuts than 5%, it will drag out the taper even longer for nearly a year....and that's with non-stop withdrawal symptoms since I've already reached tolerance and experiencing withdrawals on a full dose. 

 

A faster taper will require larger cuts and cause me to be incapacitated....and I live alone.  I tried a 25% cut last week and couldn't function.  Guess there's no good solution.  But I really want this stuff out of my body.

[[Lo...]]

If I do smaller cuts than 5%, it will drag out the taper even longer for nearly a year....and that's with non-stop withdrawal symptoms since I've already reached tolerance and experiencing withdrawals on a full dose. 

 

A faster taper will require larger cuts and cause me to be incapacitated....and I live alone.  I tried a 25% cut last week and couldn't function.  Guess there's no good solution.  But I really want this stuff out of my body.

I found that the interdose WD symptoms reduced as the taper went on. I meant to do a 1% cut per day which adds up to approx 7% in a week. You need to cut larger or smaller amounts depending on how you are managing. enough so that you are making progress but not so much that you are incapacitated.

 

Can one buy Ambien on the internet from somewhere? I think one can buy Zopiclone. Some of these drugs are OTC in places like Spain. Just thinking that might help if your doc will not renew your Rx.

 

LL

[[...]]

Fast or slow, severe insomnia is probably going to be a pretty big challenge.

Very true.  I came off my night time dose of zopiclone before I tapered down the day time doses, and I suffered severe insomnia for a few months, eventually I began sleeping better. 

[[GA...]]

If I do smaller cuts than 5%, it will drag out the taper even longer for nearly a year....and that's with non-stop withdrawal symptoms since I've already reached tolerance and experiencing withdrawals on a full dose. 

 

A faster taper will require larger cuts and cause me to be incapacitated....and I live alone.  I tried a 25% cut last week and couldn't function.  Guess there's no good solution.  But I really want this stuff out of my body.

I found that the interdose WD symptoms reduced as the taper went on. I meant to do a 1% cut per day which adds up to approx 7% in a week. You need to cut larger or smaller amounts depending on how you are managing. enough so that you are making progress but not so much that you are incapacitated.

 

Can one buy Ambien on the internet from somewhere? I think one can buy Zopiclone. Some of these drugs are OTC in places like Spain. Just thinking that might help if your doc will not renew your Rx.

 

LL

 

I wouldn't buy any controlled substances online. First, it's illegal. Second, they probably cost much more than they do if obtained legally. Third, you have no idea as to what you are actually getting. Some of that online stuff is actually made in other countries, often China, which have very lax standards.

[[ga...]]

My doctor re-wrote my prescription for 10 mg Ambien so I'm ok on that for now.  The problem is figuring out how to get off of it.  Am going to try to cut down from 9.5 mg to 9 mg tonight.  Wish I could cut 20% like GABAreceptors did! 

[[me...]]

 

Can one buy Ambien on the internet from somewhere? I think one can buy Zopiclone. Some of these drugs are OTC in places like Spain. Just thinking that might help if your doc will not renew your Rx.

 

You can buy it on the internet, I don't recommend it. As GABAreceptors says, it is illegal and nerve-wracking. It will probably be from India. From everything I have heard and experienced, the strength is not equal to American drugs, even if the dosages are equivalent.

[[GA...]]

My doctor re-wrote my prescription for 10 mg Ambien so I'm ok on that for now.  The problem is figuring out how to get off of it.  Am going to try to cut down from 9.5 mg to 9 mg tonight.  Wish I could cut 20% like GABAreceptors did!

 

But remember, I updosed my Ativan in order to successfully do those 20% cuts. If you're already taking plenty of Ativan as it is, I don't know if you want to do that or if you want to ask your doctor for more.

 

I really don't regret it, I wanted to get off the Ambien more than I wanted to get off the Ativan, anyway.

 

Hopefully it will all work out well for you.

[[GA...]]

 

Can one buy Ambien on the internet from somewhere? I think one can buy Zopiclone. Some of these drugs are OTC in places like Spain. Just thinking that might help if your doc will not renew your Rx.

 

You can buy it on the internet, I don't recommend it. As GABAreceptors says, it is illegal and nerve-wracking. It will probably be from India. From everything I have heard and experienced, the strength is not equal to American drugs, even if the dosages are equivalent.

 

Maybe some people forget that while pills like benzos and opiate painkillers are legal, they are legal only with a prescription. Every so often I read in the local newspaper that somebody gets busted with pills for which they have no prescription, usually painkillers, but sometimes Xanax for which some people mix with opiates. I doubt if the police squad is going to bust into your house at dawn, but who knows if they don't monitor these websites that sell controlled substance pills?

 

I wouldn't chance it. You mentioned pills made in India, I heard that a lot of stuff comes from China, and seeing how it's illegal anyway, you're not going to go to the cops and say, "This stuff I ordered online doesn't work!"

[[Lo...]]

I wouldn't buy any controlled substances online. First, it's illegal. Second, they probably cost much more than they do if obtained legally. Third, you have no idea as to what you are actually getting. Some of that online stuff is actually made in other countries, often China, which have very lax standards.

 

I agree it may be risky but if doctors won't give any of the drug then what options are there? Cold turkey!

[[Lo...]]

My doctor re-wrote my prescription for 10 mg Ambien so I'm ok on that for now.  The problem is figuring out how to get off of it.  Am going to try to cut down from 9.5 mg to 9 mg tonight.  Wish I could cut 20% like GABAreceptors did!

I just saw this, gardenlady and am so glad. Yes, it would be nerve-wracking to order on the internet. I wish you all the best. LL

[[Li...]]

Update;  I was on a quarter zopiclone three days, and last night I was without again. Even after three days of use, I have some withdrawal effects. Just not feeling good. I used it again because after a lengthy chat with a friend in the night I had trouble falling asleep. So I used Z to get my rhythm back. I am glad I can use it when needed. I am just back from the swimming pool, I did a 600m in 20 min. The pool is 5 min from my home. Tomorrow it is closed, so I will go to the fitness which is next to the pool. Also I will go to a saxophone lesson with my teacher Dirk. I am looking forward to it.

 

 

[[...]]

Mindset and working out for the first time in 10 years has just saved my life.

 

I was in a dark place, but I can't discuss it because the topic in question is banned on this forum. You know what it is...

 

But I started listening to positive affirmations and running for 2 miles everyday, not only has my outlook changed but I've been falling asleep faster and I've dropped 3.75mg off my 15mg dose and feel good.

 

Don't let anyone tell you how to withdrawal every body is different do it in whatever size agrees with your body.

 

I should note I'm 117kg and 6'3 tall

 

But I suggest everyone of you go walking or jogging or just run up and down the stairs...

 

It really does work.

 

Going from sitting in the corner of a room rocking back and forth telling myself I'm going to die to now exercising and enjoying life is awesome.

 

I thought I couldn't exercise because of my weight, my drug use, bla bla bla, all excuses and barriers I set up to keep me "safe"

 

Same as "I need a pill" "I can't sleep alone"

 

Guess what, I slept alone for the first time last weekend too...

 

Tony Robbins said something that stuck with me, he said use your mind as a tool and control it with your soul, don't let your mind control you.

[[ga...]]

Has anyone had severe itching while tapering down on Ambien?  I've never had itching like this before...it's widespread and scary.  It starts about 2 hours before I take the pill and then comes on fiercely like fire for about 2-3 hours afterwards.  It's so bad it bleeds and leaves marks.  It seems to get worse with each cut.  Wondering what others' experience has been....does it continue to get worse or better as the taper goes on?  And does it fade after jumping? 

[[ci...]]

Yes, I had itching when I CT off ambien. All my old surgery scars became inflamed and red. Very weird.

[[wa...]]

OK Z friends-- I am getting fed up with the insomnia, now.  I have been hanging in there but the only 3-4 hours a night is catching up with me.  I feel sick all the time now.  And with an underlying autoimmune condition and flu season coming this exhaustion frightens me  Even the most minor obligations of the next day cause anxiety and I am up all hours and up too early.  Its the early awakening that is the worse -- sometimes its that surge sensation but not always.  Just up and depressed.

 

I have trazodone and Elavil.    In the past the Elavil and OTC stuff has disagreed with me so I am gun shy about trying anything.  I really, really did not want to deal with pills but I'm desperate and miserable.  It was not like I slept much on the taper either.

[[Se...]]

Wannabe, give the Trazodone a try.  It helped me.  I know it doesn't agree with everyone but it got me personally through the rough time.  Now that I've healed, I'm tapering it and that is going well.

 

It is worth a try.

 

Lots and lots of rest.  Rest when you can't sleep, lie there, close your eyes, give your body rest.

 

Remember, the first few months are the toughest.  You can do this.

 

I can't remember if you had your hormones tested.  I would try this next if I were you.

 

I'll write more later, gotta get in the shower and get to work!  I had my support group for coming off z drugs and benzodiazepines last night in Vancouver, it makes for a late night, I'm tired this morning.

 

Sending love and support your way,

 

:smitten:

 

Ali

[[me...]]

Just up and depressed.

 

I have trazodone and Elavil.    In the past the Elavil and OTC stuff has disagreed with me so I am gun shy about trying anything.  I really, really did not want to deal with pills but I'm desperate and miserable.  It was not like I slept much on the taper either.

 

I agree, that's the reason I took Elavil for so long. It seemed to help a lot with the "4 o'clockies". Trazadone is very similar, but even more sedating. On either one, you will feel like a zombie for the first week or so, then your body adjusts. When you are doing better, you can taper off. So I think it is worth trying if you are really uncomfortable.

 

Here's where I am at right now---I finally got an answer for my dental pain yesterday. I have atypical trigeminal neuropathy, similar to trigeminal neuralgia. Basically it means I am in constant pain, with aching/burning sensations all over the left side of my mouth, and side of tongue. It is progressing to mild numbness on the left side of my face and my smile is now very crooked.

 

The next step is to get an MRI done to see if anything is compressing the nerve at any point. I have to admit I am fairly freaked out about the whole situation and hope they can figure out a cause (not always possible to find a cause). It doesn't look to be anything related to any withdrawals, in fact the amitryptiline might have been masking the neuropathy.

 

I've been taking Percocet pretty much every night for the last 3 weeks or so, to help with the pain. Not large amounts, from 1/2 to 1 and 1/2 per night, depending on how bad it is. I'm actually sleeping okay right now with the regimen I have. Maybe I will get a bit of dependence, but frankly I don't care that much about it right now, just getting through the pain. Hopefully I'll get some better pain solutions soon, OTC stuff doesn't do a thing. Chewing gum is the best solution I have found sp far.

[[wa...]]

I know the dilemma of taking an opiod of some kind for pain.  I did something to my shoulder and was in unbelievable pain for 3 weeks.  I jumped off Lunesta sooner that I wanted because I figured I was on an opiod that was making me sleep -- why not just get off.

I think my depression is just from dealing with pain so much.  Once the pain abated - I cold turkeyed off the opiod  since I was on so little and only at night.  It took about 3-4 days to w/d from it.  What can you do?  You're in pain. 

 

If you're not responding to nsaids but percocet then it is probably nerve.  I'm thinking it might be last flurry of w/d off Elavil you're dealing with, Meow.  Just guessing. 

 

If I'm not sleeping by Dec, I'll start the Traz.  so I'll stop yapping about it.  Thanks so much SS and Meo  WBB

[[Lo...]]

Hi Wannabebetter, I feel your pain at not being able to sleep enough. I have difficulty at times too but usually related to my not following good sleep hygiene. Working in bright lights in the evening and then expecting I will go to sleep right away. Not having a good rhythm to my day ie push push push. Having a bit more caffeine.

 

What are you doing to help your body sleep? Possibility using low-blue-light glasses in the evening? Are you taking any supps?

 

Have you tried meditation? It is on my list to do but I have not managed to fit it into my life yet. My doctor says it is "life changing". Have you read any Jon Kabat-Zinn ie Full Catastrophe Living?

 

A big one for me is how well I eat in the daytime. And if I had enough carbs especially slow carbs. I'd like to be on a low carb diet to manage weight but going low carb does create insomnia in me. I know others have said the same thing including Chris Kresser, a alternative doc on the internet.

 

Just some thoughts that apply to me too. Hope your sleep improves soon. LL

[[me...]]

I know the dilemma of taking an opiod of some kind for pain.  I did something to my shoulder and was in unbelievable pain for 3 weeks.  I jumped off Lunesta sooner that I wanted because I figured I was on an opiod that was making me sleep -- why not just get off.

I think my depression is just from dealing with pain so much.  Once the pain abated - I cold turkeyed off the opiod  since I was on so little and only at night.  It took about 3-4 days to w/d from it.  What can you do?  You're in pain. 

I can totally relate to that--I'm sure the opioid is helping with sleep--I'm getting 8 to 8 1/2 hours many nights now. I don't want to be dependent, but nothing else is making a dent in the pain. It's like making deals with the devil. I've got a prescription for a topical Doxepin liquid that is on order, hoping desperately that will help.

 

Chronic pain will definitely do a number on your psyche, depression is not surprising at all. (A similar disorder to what I have is also called "the suicide disease"). Hopefully that will abate for you over time. One thing you might consider is that the sleep disturbance caused by opiate withdrawals can go on for a while, apparently. It's always something....

[[Se...]]

I know the dilemma of taking an opiod of some kind for pain.  I did something to my shoulder and was in unbelievable pain for 3 weeks.  I jumped off Lunesta sooner that I wanted because I figured I was on an opiod that was making me sleep -- why not just get off.

I think my depression is just from dealing with pain so much.  Once the pain abated - I cold turkeyed off the opiod  since I was on so little and only at night.  It took about 3-4 days to w/d from it.  What can you do?  You're in pain. 

 

If you're not responding to nsaids but percocet then it is probably nerve.  I'm thinking it might be last flurry of w/d off Elavil you're dealing with, Meow.  Just guessing. 

 

If I'm not sleeping by Dec, I'll start the Traz.  so I'll stop yapping about it.  Thanks so much SS and Meo  WBB

 

So sorry, WBB.  But honestly, I think that the first 3 months are probably the worse.  Sleep starts to knit up slowly but surely as your brain retrains itself.  Make sure that you get all the basic building blocks nutritionally to help with the production of neurotransmitters for sleep.  I sound like a broken record don't I?  And sleep hygeniene is key.  And stay off any alcohol.  If I have even a small glass of wine I don't sleep well that night and my muscle pain ramps up.  Not worth it - even at 3.5 years off now.  Not worth it at all.

 

One of the best websites I've found for sleep hygiene is www.sleepwellns.ca.  Lots of great links there with wonderful information.  Julia Ross' book "Mood Cure" is another great resource.  Dr. Sara Gottfried's book "The Hormone Cure" another.  Dr. Kelly Brogan's Book "A Mind of Your Own" another.  And Chris Kresser's blog.  For me, fixing my hormones was key to fixing my underlying sleep architecture.  I've written extensively here on that subject.  I'm a big believer that most of us are hormonally very depleted and fixing my hormonal depletion was my big ticket to healing underneath.  I wouldn't be here except for doing this - starting to do this - by finding a good functional medicine specialist in 2010.  Bio-identical hormones started me on the path to healing, getting off the z-drug helped my body to finally heal.  I was 48 when I lost my husband to suicide.  Got to the hormone doctor in 2010, got educated about the z-drug in 2012, got off the z-drug after a 10 month taper in 2013.  Got healed in 2016.  F*ing long process, excuse my language.  But wouldn't be here if not for fixing the fundamentals.

 

I've been a long time friend on these boards of FinallyJoining who danced with both benzos and opiods and her book, "Accidental Addict" came out this fall.  Harrowing journey.  Would not go down the opiod route.  I've found great help from Dr. Jonathan Kuttner's blog about pain, from Dr. Henry's myolibria.com blog and from judicious use of supplements.  I know Meowie is not a fan of magnesium, for me it was a godsend.  Cutting out the calcium supplements this year helped enormously.  My muscle pain is so much better, I cannot tell you how much better.  I respect Meowie but we differ on this issue and in our experience in this regard.  I also believe that z-drugs should be tapered if use has been long term and that they are every bit as terrible potentially as the benzos proper.  You've done such amazingly difficult work to come off under the circumstances and bravo.  You will heal, I promise.  Just maybe not today or tomorrow.

 

Having gotten back on my feet after so long, I realize I'm an outlier.  For me it took over 3 years to really heal.  Most people heal far more quickly than that.  I had underlying issues - hormonal depletion, traumatic life experience, thyroid issues, adrenal fatigue.  A big triple whammy.  But even I healed.

 

Slowly, slowly, if you stay the course and take it one flipping day at a time, you'll get there.  Fortunately, there will be good days and bad days.  This is not monolithic.  You will feel like cr*p when you don't sleep but you will sleep - rest.  I used Trazodone and I'm profoundly grateful it worked for me.  It doesn't for everyone.  But for me, it was a blessing and I'm now almost off.  Am taking my time with it because it can be difficult to come off the ADs too and I'm wary and respectful of this taper but so far, I've taken a year to come down from 100 mg to less than 25 mg and I'll likely take another 6 months to do the rest.

 

Am here for you.  Sorry I'm not on here most days now that I'm back at work, the weekends seem to be the only time.  Still, I try to wade in where and as I can.  I want to be an example of someone who went through great difficulty but in the end got well.  Really well.  Got my life back.

 

 

Ali