The Long Hold Support Group

[[...]]

what is your maximum time on valium on this support side of the forum?

anyone felt functional on valium for years without daily panic attacks?

 

I've been on Valium for 15 years including the 5 years I've been tapering. Panic attacks are just a part of WDs. The key is to taper like Snut's post so you can keep it to a minimum. You have a real advantage Jasmine to be on Valium (I'm sure those on newer generation benzos  will agree.)  It has a longer half life and makes tapering easier.

[[ja...]]

thanks JWL

 

tonight, i am going back to 9. i am so low,low,low right now.

a feeling of wanting to jump out of my skin.

my husband told me that 1mg doesn't make such a difference... oh boy.

 

if i hold for 6months to a year maybe the DMT will be less painful than it was in the past since i have kindled 4 times.

i cried my heart out today. i just want to be functional, right now, i can barely move.

 

[[St...]]

what is your maximum time on valium on this support side of the forum?

anyone felt functional on valium for years without daily panic attacks?

 

I've been on Valium for 15 years including the 5 years I've been tapering. Panic attacks are just a part of WDs. The key is to taper like Snut's post so you can keep it to a minimum. You have a real advantage Jasmine to be on Valium (I'm sure those on newer generation benzos  will agree.)  It has a longer half life and makes tapering easier.

Who's Snut 😉?Do you want me to pull them out 🤔.X

[[...]]

what is your maximum time on valium on this support side of the forum?

anyone felt functional on valium for years without daily panic attacks?

 

I've been on Valium for 15 years including the 5 years I've been tapering. Panic attacks are just a part of WDs. The key is to taper like Snut's post so you can keep it to a minimum. You have a real advantage Jasmine to be on Valium (I'm sure those on newer generation benzos  will agree.)  It has a longer half life and makes tapering easier.

Who's Snut 😉?Do you want me to pull them out 🤔.X

 

Lol sorry Stut. Don't you think Snut sounds better? Like Snutty?

[[St...]]

thanks JWL

 

tonight, i am going back to 9. i am so low,low,low right now.

a feeling of wanting to jump out of my skin.

my husband told me that 1mg doesn't make such a difference... oh boy.

 

if i hold for 6months to a year maybe the DMT will be less painful than it was in the past since i have kindled 4 times.

i cried my heart out today. i just want to be functional, right now, i can barely move.

Jasmine go back and read my post from this morning please.Remember you are reinstating your anti depressant which will heighten your anxiety bfor a few weeks.Now please stay at 9 mgs and don't budge until things settle down.Most of the time when things are hard the best thing is to do nothing.x

[[St...]]

what is your maximum time on valium on this support side of the forum?

anyone felt functional on valium for years without daily panic attacks?

 

I've been on Valium for 15 years including the 5 years I've been tapering. Panic attacks are just a part of WDs. The key is to taper like Snut's post so you can keep it to a minimum. You have a real advantage Jasmine to be on Valium (I'm sure those on newer generation benzos  will agree.)  It has a longer half life and makes tapering easier.

Who's Snut 😉?Do you want me to pull them out 🤔.X

 

Lol sorry Stut. Don't you think Snut sounds better? Like Snutty?

😅😅😅 Not very sexy but it will do 😇.l will forgive you this time honey it's not the worst thing I've been called 😉. Hope you are hanging in there.X

[[De...]]

Hi jwl,

I think i do grind my teeth too! Ugh. I hope you get your root canal soon. Tooth pain is awful. Thats funny Snutty!! Lol

[[Me...]]

Jasmine- I tried a single cut from 5mg to 4.5mg and holy shit that was hard.  So I went back to 5mg to hold and have done DMT since.  But if I can share MY experience and it’s just MINE I had to let my Dr. know.  You got a lot going on with your body right now.  Easy does it.  Sounds like you need to hold for as long as it takes.  Maybe a few months.  I don’t know.  It worked for me.  I held for 5 months.  That may not have been enough time but now I’m doing DMT and I still have symptoms but NOTHING compared to what it was before.  Tolerable but they do suck.  I don’t think there is any way around it. Maybe for some it’s symptom free. But not me.  Holding is the best thing that works for me.

 

Ha ha “snut” made me laugh. 

 

JWL - distraction works.  I find being outside helps.  I worked in the yard last week and it felt so good. Lots of places to do some new gardening.  Today I’m inside watching Civil Rights  activist Rep. John Lewis honoring.  But after I’m gonna go out and water and see my plan of attack for my Maggie “remembrance” garden. 

 

Today - I’m in a window but legs feel weak.  That darn muscle loss. 

 

Hang in all my buddies. 

 

Love,

Meems 💗💗💗💗😻

[[ja...]]

i envy you all. you sound doing so well.

i spend my time crying, i swear, it is like a big dark cloud over my head.  i seem not to care about anything anymore.

the lexapro will take some time to work. i will re-instate to 9mg of valium.

 

i also have OCD since as a child.

my doc is very good, she wants to treat the obsession and the depression. she didn't rush me to cut the dosage of valium, i was just scared of taking that much.

she is prescribing propofol for night time panic attack only if needed.

[[ja...]]

Jasmine- I tried a single cut from 5mg to 4.5mg and holy shit that was hard.  So I went back to 5mg to hold and have done DMT since.  But if I can share MY experience and it’s just MINE I had to let my Dr. know.  You got a lot going on with your body right now.  Easy does it.  Sounds like you need to hold for as long as it takes.  Maybe a few months.  I don’t know.  It worked for me.  I held for 5 months.  That may not have been enough time but now I’m doing DMT and I still have symptoms but NOTHING compared to what it was before.  Tolerable but they do suck.  I don’t think there is any way around it. Maybe for some it’s symptom free. But not me.  Holding is the best thing that works for me.

 

Ha ha “snut” made me laugh. 

 

JWL - distraction works.  I find being outside helps.  I worked in the yard last week and it felt so good. Lots of places to do some new gardening.  Today I’m inside watching Civil Rights  activist Rep. John Lewis honoring.  But after I’m gonna go out and water and see my plan of attack for my Maggie “remembrance” garden. 

 

Today - I’m in a window but legs feel weak.  That darn muscle loss. 

 

Hang in all my buddies. 

 

Love,

Meems 💗💗💗💗😻

 

thanks Meem,

are you functioning? and not in constant panic attack?

[[Tr...]]

Jasmine pleassssssssssse I BEG YOU READ THE LONG HOLD PROPAGANDA that Snut  , love you twin!, So kindly posted for you. I think you'll find all the answers to your questions. I can't begin to tell you how many members it's helped. I hope you will 🙏

Trishy ❤️

[[Me...]]

Jasmine- I tried a single cut from 5mg to 4.5mg and holy shit that was hard.  So I went back to 5mg to hold and have done DMT since.  But if I can share MY experience and it’s just MINE I had to let my Dr. know.  You got a lot going on with your body right now.  Easy does it.  Sounds like you need to hold for as long as it takes.  Maybe a few months.  I don’t know.  It worked for me.  I held for 5 months.  That may not have been enough time but now I’m doing DMT and I still have symptoms but NOTHING compared to what it was before.  Tolerable but they do suck.  I don’t think there is any way around it. Maybe for some it’s symptom free. But not me.  Holding is the best thing that works for me.

 

Ha ha “snut” made me laugh. 

 

JWL - distraction works.  I find being outside helps.  I worked in the yard last week and it felt so good. Lots of places to do some new gardening.  Today I’m inside watching Civil Rights  activist Rep. John Lewis honoring.  But after I’m gonna go out and water and see my plan of attack for my Maggie “remembrance” garden. 

 

Today - I’m in a window but legs feel weak.  That darn muscle loss. 

 

Hang in all my buddies. 

 

Love,

Meems 💗💗💗💗😻

 

thanks Meem,

are you functioning? and not in constant panic attack?

 

Jasmine - yes I’m functioning but have tolerable symptoms.  Right now it’s stress triggered.  And I’ve learned some techniques (mostly from this group) to deal with symptoms.  To distract - to accept - and to normalize what’s going on.  Panic attacks as opposed to typical anxiety do scare me.  I have to really use my tools.  Nausea Sucks for me. But just hang out here. Hold your dose.  “Try” and relax.  Come here and share. And just normalize what’s happening.  It’s your body adjusting.  Your totally good and your safe.  You’re gonna be just fine. 

Big hug 🤗 to you! 

[[Tr...]]

i envy you all. you sound doing so well.

i spend my time crying, i swear, it is like a big dark cloud over my head.  i seem not to care about anything anymore.

the lexapro will take some time to work. i will re-instate to 9mg of valium.

 

i also have OCD since as a child.

my doc is very good, she wants to treat the obsession and the depression. she didn't rush me to cut the dosage of valium, i was just scared of taking that much.

she is prescribing propofol for night time panic attack only if needed.

Jasmine we were all like you. You should have seen my posts two years ago. We have all been where you are right now. The only thing that helped us was holding our dose for as long as it took each one us to stabalise. You just have to do the hard time in the" waiting room" but it will be so worth it. So please stop messing with that dosage. Just stay put at 9 and wait it out.. pleeeeeeease.

Trishy ❤️

[[Me...]]

Jasmine pleassssssssssse I BEG YOU READ THE LONG HOLD PROPAGANDA that Snut  , love you twin!, So kindly posted for you. I think you'll find all the answers to your questions. I can't begin to tell you how many members it's helped. I hope you will 🙏

Trishy ❤️

 

YESSS read it!

[[ga...]]

thanks JWL

 

tonight, i am going back to 9. i am so low,low,low right now.

a feeling of wanting to jump out of my skin.

my husband told me that 1mg doesn't make such a difference... oh boy.

 

if i hold for 6months to a year maybe the DMT will be less painful than it was in the past since i have kindled 4 times.

i cried my heart out today. i just want to be functional, right now, i can barely move.

Jasmine go back and read my post from this morning please.Remember you are reinstating your anti depressant which will heighten your anxiety bfor a few weeks.Now please stay at 9 mgs and don't budge until things settle down.Most of the time when things are hard the best thing is to do nothing.x

 

Jasmine, you are only 3 days from your too-big cut (1 mg is huge.) This means going backwards to your previous dose will most likely succeed. I like to call that a dose correction. Then you need to stay there. Many problems happen because people keep changing things, trying to fix problems. They only create new problems.

 

Before my long hold, my doctor told me,"The brain likes predictability. Stop making changes." So I did. It took 3 months for me to notice that my brain was settling down, but it did settle down to the point I could function and figure out how to taper better. I think holding will work for most people. I would give it 3 months at least before you decide if it will work for you or not. No changes for 3 months. That's actually a long hold that is rather on the short side, if that makes sense.

[[ja...]]

thank you all- i will come back at 9mg

[[ja...]]

when you are trying to stabilize, how often to you have to dose?

[[ga...]]

Here is one version of the Long Hold Propaganda. (It grew with time.) It is quotes about the benefits of holding that ValleyUm, who used to be our fearless leader, gathered from around the forum.  You can see that many buddies have benefited from holds either when they became badly destabilized or encountered a very stressful time.

 

Valley kept chickens so I found this image and it became the mascot. Those were fun days hearing about Valley's chicken escapades! Being goofy was a distraction from my misery while I waited for the hold to work. I strongly recommend distraction rather than doom-scrolling as a way to pass the time during the wait.

 

 

THE LONG HOLD PROPAGANDA LIST

                                           

 

 

   

"Yes, most of the time if people hold long enough, eventually they do come to feel better. It can take a long time, especially if they've been tapering too fast and have gotten ahead of their body's ability to rebalance itself.  Sometimes people need to just stop tapering and take some number of months for healing, before starting to taper again.In general, I hold my taper whenever I feel my symptoms ramp up at all, and I hold until they settle down. Periodically I will do a longer hold just to give my brain some extra healing time. So far every time I've done that I've had a really great period afterwards, several really good months, even once I start tapering again. That's how I approach holds. However, I'm on a very slow, stable, regulated taper. People who are in more trouble usually need to hold longer, and usually don't get relief as quickly as I do."

 

"Basically, holds are how we give our brains/bodies time to catch up and heal and re-establish some kind of homeostasis during the tapering process.  So when to do them and for how long is very variable and depends on the person, the taper, their symptoms, their history, etc."

 

"I highly doubt that holding will harm you, but I've seen people who've taken very long to recover after getting messed up during too-aggressive or unstable tapers. It doesn't look all that different (in terms of symptoms) from when people CT or taper all the way off a med too harshly and end up in protracted withdrawal. It's just that people end up in that same shape without actually having come all the way off the meds."

 

"If you've thrown yourself into chaotic withdrawal syndrome by ill-advised experimentation (or poor advice), holding is probably preferable to further decreasing or quitting altogether.

 

You need to bring some order to the chaos. If you hold at one level (all your drugs), you are at least giving your nervous system some stability. Given the constants -- which still may be causing adverse effects, etc. -- your nervous system will regroup over time.

Once you see some consistency in symptom pattern, you can carefully adjust dosage to see what will help."

 

"If you have been tapering systematically and run into a rough spot, holding can help you get past it. At least, when you hold, you can track your symptom pattern and see what the balance of waves and windows might be. If windows are gradually getting longer and more frequent -- a positive sign -- your nervous system is adjusting to the cumulative decreases and you will eventually be in a position to continue tapering.

 

"If during a hold the windows pattern is not promising, a slight updose may be called for."

 

"For me, I hate these meds so much, that holding feels like they're winning somehow. I keep trying to tell myself that it's ME that's winning, as I heal. Because I know that I heal and adapt during holds. I can feel it happening. If I hold long enough, I get to where I'm feeling pretty good. I encourage you to allow yourself the experience of holding long enough to feel good, even if that takes months. It's SO encouraging to get to that point. I cling to the memories of those times, the thoughts I find myself thinking (life is good, there's hope in my future); the way I feel strong and able to deal with stress and extra activity; and the way that even with these tiny increments, when I hold long enough to let myself feel the healing, each step I feel even better than the one before. I can tell that I'm emerging from the damage these drugs have done to me."

 

"Over the course of my journey, I have learned many things.  First and foremost would be to taper slowly.  Have patience and don’t let the calendar determine when you will be off of your medication.  Hold when necessary for as long as necessary to maintain your stability as much as possible.

 

Symptoms don’t last forever; windows of clarity occur.  Cherish the windows and know that more will come and that they are a sign of healing."

 

"The first three things anyone needs to learn about tapering benzos:

 

1. Slow slow slow.

 

2. A sense of feeling panicked and like you need to rush and do something-something-anything-anything about your withdrawal symptoms is actually a classic symptom of withdrawal itself. It's very important to learn to resist that urge. The best thing you can do is usually nothing at all, just support your body's healing by good diet, gentle exercise, meditative breathing if possible, and a regular schedule of sleep/wake/eat etc.

 

3. There's a lag time with benzo tapers. You can make a cut and do okay, make another cut and do okay, and so on, and then all at once it will catch up with you cumulatively and you can really hit the wall. It's much better to start slow and small with small cuts and long breaks in between cuts, until you have a chance to see how the withdrawal symptoms come and go over time. It's typical with benzo tapers for there to be days when you feel great and you're sure you're all better, followed by worse days, back and forth. So see #1, don't push your luck. With practice and experience you'll learn the best pace for you. But it's a lot easier if you don't overdo it and crash--it can really set you back to do that."

 

"Allow time for your nervous system to recover. It will."- Prof Ashton

 

"The key to everything is patience. You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it."

 

"The secret of patience is doing something else in the meanwhile"

 

"Start small and conservative. Start with a small cut and a long hold. Don't try to follow a calendar schedule; follow your body's schedule instead, by observing your own symptoms. Keep a daily journal of symptoms (ranking them on a numerical scale of 1 to 5 or something like that). Don't trust yourself to remember the way your symptoms wax and wane--the drugs and the withdrawal actually interfere with our ability to reliably perceive patterns. (Trust me on this.  It's pretty much universal. Your mind will lie to you.)"

 

"In order to get my head around the prospects of a really slow taper I have to work through what it represents to me, the things I say to myself that encourage me to go faster. I know that I have more trouble with the holds than the increments. I think I view the hold as disempowering, as an expression of me 'needing' the medication, that I am beholden to it, its dictating the terms. This isnt a very positive relationship to the hold! Rather than a barrier to being off, I need to see it as an important strategy to success and a choice I am making. I also think that not holding long enough hasn't enabled me to have the 'good spells' and the rest I need to recover and keep going, so, being really tired, I've then wanted to speed things up, to get to the other side. My experience tells me to listen to my body and that getting my head around it is important."

 

"When I hold for a longer period I am always rewarded with a spell of feeling pretty good, which lasts even after I start cutting again, for a while. I have always felt better after holds and I have never done well with the "keep cutting even if you're suffering" approach, although some people apparently do okay with that. As always, our own bodies are the experts."

 

"I can only speak for myself. If i held, i know what would happen. If i made a mistake cutting, then all bets are off. I think people are just afraid of making a mistake and then getting the hammer for it. Recovering from a devastating mistake can be terrifying."

 

"I have had to make 3 months holds, or even longer, before I could make some progress again. a few weeks may be too little? be patient."

 

"I had heard about "holding" but I only did it for 3 or 4 or 5 months and then dropped again because I didn't think it worked.  However, I now believe IT DOES WORK - I JUST NEEDED TO HOLD LONGER!  The first 6 month hold I did I saw improvement in many symptoms, however about half a dozen got worse, so I dropped.

The next 6 month hold on a lower dose and a slower taper, saw improvement in all symptoms (to mild) with some EVEN GOING AWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NEARLY 5 YEARS!  I felt almost normal for the first time in I don't now how long, it was amazing.  I had some good days and I even went shopping for the first time in 5 years! This was AN AMAZING REVELATION to me because with the next drop, they all got worse again.  This proved to me that all this is definitely w/d... can you believe I still sometimes wonder and doubt (plus other people seem to question it also).  I feel a real calm now about that aspect and somehow seeing that proof/evidence has helped me a lot!  I didn't know anything about holds, let alone long ones, but I do now."

 

"I held for 10 months at the bottom of my benzo taper with a good result.  I'm the hold queen, and firmly believe in erring on the side of holding too long. I think that tapering when we are symptomatic contributes to needless suffering.  I realize some people have paradoxical reactions from benzos, and need to taper in the face of WD symptoms, but they are far fewer than those who benefit from prolonged holds times... several months and more."

 

"A benzo cut can cause an uptick in your withdrawal symptoms, and it may take longer to stabilize once you take a  cut.  I once held for 9 months and this helped me considerably.  tapering slowly has taken time, but my quality of life was only adversely impacted for the first 2 or 3 months."

 

"1 month may seem like a long time but it's not. On the other hand 2 mg of Klonopin is a lot. When I see how fast people went it usually gives me an idea of how long it will take for them to stabilise. In my particular situation I waited for 4 months (with what I know today I would advise anyone in my situation even longer hold). I believe in the healing power of long holds. When we are struggling even minute cuts will make us feel awful. But if we allow our brain to regrow itself through holding subsequent cuts will be less painful."

 

"If I were in your shoes I would actually say, hold not just until you don't feel so terrible any more, but hold until you start to have consistent periods of actually feeling good. It could take a few more months but I would wait as long as it takes. This far along it's not going to make you more dependent on the benzo or cause more damage than has already been caused. And if you treat your brain well and give it the stability and gentle care that it needs, at your age, it's going to bounce back beautifully. Even at my advanced age my brain is bouncing back--after 20 years on meds! So I feel pretty confident that right now it's more important to handle your precious brain gently and lovingly than it is to hurry. It's not a delay--it's a strategic retreat and rebuild. If you get to where your nervous system is really stable and strong, that will give you a whole new base to taper from, and tapering will go much better. You'll have some minimal symptoms after each cut but you'll hold until those settle down. You'll be able to get on with your life even while tapering rather than trying to get through the taper so you can get back to your life, if that makes sense. This is a race that is won by the turtles every time, if "win" means "get off the meds forever and recover fully."

 

"Yeah, the way "tolerance withdrawal' is bandied about on the benzo boards (try saying that five times really fast) drives me nuts. Especially since like you said, it's usually used to scare people into keeping cutting faster, which is almost always the opposite of what they need to be doing. VERY rarely is "just keep cutting" the right answer. Drives me nuts. Feels like I'm always the voice in the wilderness on that one. People go too fast, get into withdrawal, hold for a short time; their symptoms get worse (unrelated to the hold, it's just ongoing withdrawal from going too fast before); they get told they're in "tolerance withdrawal" and they need to start cutting again. Yet when someone CTs and has prolonged withdrawal for months or years, nobody says it's "tolerance withdrawal", because obviously that's impossible if you aren't taking the drug. What's called tolerance withdrawal is almost always just plain delayed withdrawal symptoms which are pretty much universal with benzos. Benzos are notoriously up and down and nonlinear and long and drawn out, in withdrawal. Okay, thanks for letting me rant about that. The whole thing drives me nuts (she says for the third time). "

 

"The symptoms this last month have been anything but linear - a total rollercoaster, with some hours during the days better than others, and some worse - as this has progressed - and I realize this is part of the process. There is a ramp up period, followed by a small reprieve in symptoms, then it's starts to ramp up again, a perpetual ebb and flow day in, day out. So it's been impossible to judge the progression. In fact, the last few days, I feel like my symptoms are up a notch in severity which feeds into my fears and reinforces my doc's position that unless we "get the symptoms back under control" by updosing, my condition will worsen.

 

I do now agree looking back that the although the cuts were small, the frequency was likely too fast and lag time came on like a freight train. I can see my doc shaking his head in disbelief at all that, but like you said, what can we expect?"

 

"Also, one thing I've noticed with benzo tapering, is that when I'm going a bit too fast I tend to get into this "rush rush hurry go faster get off this stuff" frame of mind, which tends to cause me to actually cut even faster. I've posted about this here and there and found other people are having the same thing. Something about the anxiety, the way the withdrawal activates our limbic system, something like that, seems to cause us to feel a kind of urgency that actually makes us do the opposite of what we need to do at that point.So now, when I get that "hurry up and taper fast" feeling, I try to remember to stop and think about it, and make myself slow down or hold for a while if I can. Also want to reiterate, because it needs saying all the time and not too many people are saying it:  Even a microtaper requires intermittent holds with no reductions, no cuts at all, for a while."

 

"Better to err on this side of safety. In reading thousands of posts, I never heard of anyone who suffered for holding too much/long, only for too little."

 

"There's some mild weirdness going on in my head and legs, which I'm taking as a sign that there's still some instability going on. I've heard people claim you CAN hold for too long, but I don't really believe that. I mean, we've been "holding" on these drugs for years and, apart from the usual side effects, nothing awful happened because of it.."

 

"Your CNS is very sensitive to these drugs.  Please listen to your body..  Do not taper until all or most of your symptoms have resolved.  If I were in your position... knowing what I do now, I'd plan on holding for 6 months, then starting to taper at 5% a month.  If you are okay with that pace for 2 months, you could then try going to 10% a month. As long as you are having withdrawal symptoms, your body is acting as it still has the drug.  So it's possible to actually get the drug out of your system sooner, but have your body reacting to it longer.. so, your body ends up responding to the drug longer than if you came off gradually and preserved your quality of life. PS. if you have a 'window'.. a sustained period of time that lasts, say 2 months, you could think about tapering.. but if you think in terms of say, 6 months, you might do better by removing a constant temptation."

 

"While I understand the desire to get off these drugs fast, I don't think there's enough discussion of the possible benefits of an extremely SLOW taper. And how many stories do we all hear, of people who've tried over and over again to get off meds, and have to reinstate, but have never tried an extremely slow taper with long holds? In the long run so many people spend years trying to get off the meds, suffer, are disabled much of that time, end up hospitalized, et cetera, and in the end they don't save any time at all."

 

"If you are tapering too fast (and I would add moving doses around, crossing over to another benzo, etc.) and get withdrawal symptoms, they may fluctuate in a windows and waves pattern. This leads a lot of people to ignore the warning signs of going too fast (or tapering while unstable). If you continue to taper, withdrawal symptoms probably will get worse. It's the nature of withdrawal symptoms to fluctuate, because the nervous system is trying to correct itself. "

 

"For many reasons, our emotions are on a hair-trigger, amplified, and perseverative. We probably don't even know all of what's going on physically yet, but it includes diminished prefrontal lobe executive functions, rebound amygdala, dysregulated HPA, over-active adrenals, etc. The neuro-emotions include -- neuro-fear neuro-anger neuro-guilt neuro-shame neuro-hurt neuro-regret neuro-self-criticism neuro-grudge-holding ...and more! It is very, very confusing to have these intense neuro-emotions and try to remember that they are not what they appear to be. Emotions are compelling. Emotions during recovery from psych meds are even more

 

"After a severe CT it took me about six months to get to feeling stable again. I've seen this in dozens of people.  It's not at all uncommon, especially after a CT or a series of ups and downs in dosage or a series of changes of meds, to take many months to stabilize; sometimes a year or more. Seems like everyone does get better eventually, though. I know there must be rare exceptions, but from what I've seen they're extremely rare. Anyway, months instead of weeks is a common variation. It does require more patience but it's not a sign of a bad outcome. Many people have gone through spells like this, stabilized, and then gone on to do slow tapers quite successfully. "

 

"People heal at different rates. In 6 months, you might find you're much better. "

 

"Don't think that holding is doing nothing. Far from it. When it's needed, it's needed to free your body to do the healing it knows how to do... if we don't interfere! Tapering is necessary to get off the med, but the real recovery comes from complex healing the body does, and the real healing comes from what the body does to heal, which we don't fully understand. Sometimes a small updose steadies the body out and supports healing, sometimes it doesn't. You learned that in your case it doesn't. But healing processes from anything can be "painful" and we can't see the healing for a while - but that doesn't mean we aren't healing!"

 

"Things get less and less wobbly the longer I hold. So that when I cut again, the system I'm re-perturbing is a stable and strong one that's going to be able to handle and adapt to the new perturbations. I think what I see happen to people a lot is, they cut and then they hold for a while, just long enough to allow the worst of it to pass, then they cut again, et cetera, but after a few of those they hit a wall. I'm beginning to think--for me, at least--it's really crucial not to just hold long enough to be able to function, but to hold, at least intermittently, long enough to allow a stable homeostasis to be established, to give the body/mind a chance to attend to some deeper healing."

 

"Not only is it okay to hold for six months, it would be good for you at this point, to give your nervous system time to recover from what it's been through. You can definitely taper down when ready, it's just going to take a lot longer than you had expected. These drugs are NOT the innocent benign wonderful things we were told they are."

 

"I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance."

 

"When people exceed their nervous system's ability to keep up, they get destablized and then must sometimes updose and  hold for a few months or more before resuming, and when all is said and done, their taper takes longer than if they had just gone ahead and done the proper taper to begin with!  Throw away the calendar and focus on living your life.  Always listen to your body.  You'll always be taking less and less, which is better than still being on the full dosage from where you came, so it's all good, right?"

 

"Then I think you are on track to keep holding for the time being.  I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance."

 

"I would hold until your symptoms reduce, then hold for a good four weeks after (or more), given how long you've been tapering and how high a dose you started at, just to make sure your nervous system (central and enteric) really has a chance to stabilize."

 

" I tapered too fast and hit the wall. I ended up having to hold for months before I stabilized. I was feeling so crummy I didn't feel like I would ever stabilize, but things eventually settled down. I know how hopeless you feel right now. The best thing you can do is hold tight, don't mess with your dose and wait until things settle down."

 

"I would say holding is your best bet. You have destabilised you CNS and there is no silver mbullet that will take that away at once. After we destabilise our system it usually takes some times for things to very GRADUALLY start to settle. If you noticed even the slightest bit of relief as opposed to complete lifting of symptoms it would mean you are on the right track."




"I have so far seen that holding got me out of any hiccup I've had. Very bad symptoms only meant I had to wait longer. But I have faith that they will disappear because I've seen them disappear just as a result of holding."




"Holds are really important. When someone is tapering by cutting a little more each day it's still important to take the occasional hold where you don't reduce at all. You may have gotten a bit ahead of your brain's ability to heal itself. But I think it will be able to catch up if you treat it gently for a while and don't change your dose. I'd recommend not restarting your taper as soon as you feel better, go ahead and hold for an extra month or so just to allow the invisible healing processes to catch up."




"It hasn't even been a month yet, and I expect you'll need to hold for at least three months before you notice really consistent improvement, so hang in there.

And there will be ups and downs. Don't read too much into them. They would happen no matter what you do. Just stay very consistent, keep your life as stable and regular as possible, keep your meds as stable and regular as possible, and allow your nervous system to balance itself out as best it can. The more stable you are, the smoother your eventual taper will be. Again, I think you may have reached the point that people often do reach, where you just don't have as many options any more if things go haywire. So please don't experiment with tapering faster. Stick with slow and safe."




"I have been holding, holding, holding as per your advice and yes it has been a ride that I had to hold on tight but I am now having windows that are clearer and even a few days of about 95%. But, I do fall back into waves but I to much much lesser degrees and that's what gets me through them. "




"If you are improving with the hold (as expected), I don't know why you would want to start tapering.  Why not wait until the symptoms are gone and then taper.  If you start now, your symptoms will slow the rate at which you can taper, and your quality of life will suffer."

 

"I'd continue to hold as long as you are improving.  I once held for 9 months.. to good effect. Why have a bumpy taper if you can come off without the pain of withdrawal symptoms."

 

"You don't need to make any more changes for a good time (think 6 months or so), even very small ones.  Please let things simmer down!  When you get symptomatic, you have wanted to updose, or ct.. or some variation.  Please hold onto the fact that the very best thing you can do now is to HOLD and let your body heal.  And IMO, holding is the hardest part of all.  At least it was for me."




"What you suffer from is destabilisation and the best cure for that is stability over time. It's incredibly hard not to do something, anything when we are suffering so badly. But as you have seen so far that only makes things worse. The information describing how our brain remodels itself turned me into a firm believer of healing power of holding. I have to say that after 5 horrible months I'm being rewarded by feeling so much better..."

 

"A month is not a long hold, especially if you're pretty symptomatic. I wouldn't assume a problem with a hold until after six months there was no improvement. Yes of course most of us get improvement and stability with holds, that's why we do them. But like I say, a month is often not nearly long enough."




"I still find that holds are at least as important a part of the picture as the cuts. Maybe more. Slows me down even more, the longer holds, but I still get to feeling so much better after holding for a while that I know it's good for me to do it. And overall feeling SO much better now that I'm on these low doses. Turtle turtle turtle is working for me still. I hope other people can bring themselves to do it and it works for them too."




"I'm pretty sure that the holds, for me, are a crucial factor in how well I do overall. I notice a lot of improvement with, and for a couple of months after, every long hold. I feel like my body uses that time to catch up and heal and establish a new, better "normal."




"We all will recover is the hope that gets me through the days. From all the countless hours of research and talking to doctors who understand kindling and withdrawl the general concensus is that it will get better with time. You are on the right path just keep going one day at a time. I have made the mistake many times of moving a dose or adding drugs only to make things worse."




"People feel pretty stable after holding for a while, but then make even a tiny cut and get hit with symptoms. This will happen over and over. Yet those same people eventually, after holding for many months or even a year, are able to cut again with much less trouble. I suspect there is a lot of subtle healing that needs time, lots of time, to work its way through. Our nervous systems can reach a homeostatic state that's good enough when there are not a lot of extra stressors, but they're not fully healed and are still more fragile at that point than we realize, and can be easily pushed back over the edge. I think that's part of why we get those windows and those waves. I could be wrong but I think that's a pattern that I'm seeing."




"Holding for 6 months should result in a substantial improvement."




"A sufficiently and very slow taper after holding until stable and maybe a bit longer, should make you able to function and have quality of life while tapering."




"But as we see so often on withdrawal groups, it is not simply about (tolerating) getting to being drug-free. It is about completing the healing process. I learned the concept that the ideal way to heal, and the least painless, is to balance tapers with healing. So if your body still needs a little more of that healing process, from the cases I have seen, it can actually be a faster healing process to take a bit longer and let the process complete while not jarring your nervous system by going off too soon."




"I have noticed a change in the way I feel since I've been holding. It does tell me that crossing over to K and being on it for 3 months and then tapering was not enough time to stabilize on K. So I am now in my 78th day of holding, and I still am feeling change. This tells me that I should hold longer, which I had already planned to do anyway. I will not hesitate to hold a year if I feel i should. And when I do taper, it will be respective of small cuts with sufficient holds. I do not see the need to rush, and that is the position and mindset I now have."




"Unfortunately, there is no fast way out and if you hold for a while to let your nervous system settle and catch up to the changes and then do a slow and steady taper you will be in the best position possible. If you taper carefully you can enjoy a high quality of life , as you go . There are quite a few here who while tapering have held down jobs and maintained a happy and healthy life. "




"You have to be so careful to taper this crap off VERY slowly!  I have also thought that I could not stabilize but that just means your brain type needs way more time to heal.  Just hold until you get stable if it does not happen then your brain is just telling you to go slower. Some people just need extra time.  If you taper faster then your S/X can heal then jumping just means a long recovery is coming and I'd rather spend that time slow tapering."




"I do not care what Ashton says I NEVER cut if I am still feeling bad.  I hold until I reach a new baseline and then cut again.  This is hard since people tend to push for some odd reason.  Personally I think the withdrawal amplifies the sense of urgency so we end up psyching ourselves out and end up going faster and faster.


Jumping does not heal you.  Feeling healed should be the only reason why you jump.  Took me 3 years to figure out this simple fact"





"There are many reasons why reinstatements to taper are successful. Crossing to the longer life benzo after reinstating AND getting the right equivalency and more. HOLDING is essential and many are coached to "PUSH" through it upon reinstate. The brain has NO time to settle down."




"Just be careful in your taper off the clonazepam.  If your dizziness and other symptoms increase or are more disturbing, do not be afraid to hold the taper so that you don't suffer in the process."




"When doing a microtaper (smaller cuts but more frequently) people can get ahead of their brain's ability to remodel itself.  The time it takes a brain to heal and remodel, to build new receptors and remove old ones, to turn genes on and off, et cetera, is just not something that we can control or change. I generally encourage people who are microtapering to continue to take intermittent longer holds throughout their taper, just to make sure the brain healing is keeping up with the cuts they are making."




"I am almost 4 years out from my last benzo. In the beginning I tapered too fast and hit the wall. I ended up having to hold for months before I stabilized. I was feeling so crummy I didn't feel like I would ever stabilize, but things eventually settled down. I know how hopeless you feel right now. The best thing you can do is hold tight, don't mess with your dose and wait until things settle down."

 

"I would say holding is your best bet. You have destabilised you CNS and there is no silver bullet that will take that away at once. After we destabilise our system it usually takes some times for things to very GRADUALLY start to settle. If you noticed even the slightest of relief as opposed to complete lifting of symptoms it would mean you are on the right track."

 

"Unfortunately, the classic pattern with benzo withdrawal (with all psych meds, but especially benzos) is pretty roller-coaster-y: better days/worse days/better days etc. It's pretty typical in a situation where one has pushed the tapering a bit too hard and gotten into a bad patch, for it to not resolve as quickly as it has in the past. In fact this is a pretty normal pattern: we taper along and things seem to go okay, and then symptoms start to sort of build up and not resolve quite as fast as usual, and then we sort of "hit the wall." That's when it's time to stop tapering! You've tapered pretty fast--not unreasonably, but not slowly. Now you're down to a significantly lower dose than where you started. It might be time for a nice long hold to allow your body and nervous and endocrine systems time to catch up, heal and rebalance."

 

"You may need to hold your dosages still for a long time if you want to be stable and work and parent your beautiful daughter. Please resist the urge to make a bunch of changes.  It is destabilizing (and there is that speeding train headed for a sharp curve!), and you need to be stable, and well."




"I think there's every reason to assume that given time, a CNS can restabilize and get itself back into balance with successively lower doses of the drug using some variation on the same mechanisms that it uses to restabilize and get itself back into balance when the drug is removed altogether. I think it's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis that this would explain why a slow taper works so well for some people and symptoms often disappear after holding long enough."

 

"Small steps but thats how it is done. I understand the fear. It has kept me frim doing the simplest of things over the course of this tapering process. But you can take back control. Have confidence in you ur self first. Accept dont fight. What we resist persists and what we accept eventually fades. You are going to be fine.

I think everything we experience in this withdrawal is caused by fear and anxiety but heightened 100 times because of withdrawal. All these pains and numbness and crazy thoughts etc. are experienced by people in anxious states who are not even on any medication. Once we accept that these sensations are only exaggerated anxious thoughts and sensations we can force our bodies if not our minds to move. Eventually we bypass the fear response and our normal levels resume.It has been done by others and it can be done by us too. Accept, float through it and let time pass."

 

"I honestly believe we must always believe in the Process of Healing. Patience, Time, and letting go of excess Fear. "

 

"When you hold you’re not failing, you’re just changing the way you stay in charge of the situation taking by control of a bad situation, it just a change of tactics nothing more nothing less. It takes brave person to keep trying different ways, not a failure, holding is NOT giving up, its regrouping to keep moving forwards. Anyway there's no such thing as failure, its just more chances to keep trying."

 

"As far as how long to hold?  We are all different but I will say that I had to hold 8 months my first year of tapering.  I had gone way too fast and was a mess.  It took a very long time until I could cut again.  I couldn't see any possibility of cutting while I was so sick.  It made no sense to me whatsoever.  I then went too fast again - terrified of getting tolerance wd.  I should have known better as I had already held eight months without any problem - only fairly steady improvement.  So...another long hold.  4 months this second time. After learning my lesson, I slowed way down and was prepared to hold again if sxs ramped.  I had found the right pace and sxs were very tolerable.  When they started increasing again I slowed again for the remainder of my taper.  Then...I walked off.  No bad sxs and no acute.  I'm close to 4 wks off and feel great. I do think that anyone having a really bad time should give a hold a decent chance.  I would say that 2 or 3 month minimum.  Then re-evaluate and assess whether there has been improvement.  If you can get back on your feet by holding and then go slow enough to keep sxs low I do think it's very likely that you will have no worsening after you are off.  If I can walk-off after 25yrs of xanax (ending at 8mgs) anyone can."

 

"Yes, I decided that I would NOT fear long holds, or up doses. These things only helped me. I did not allow myself to sink too far into w/d sxs that I know had potential to frustrate me so that I would give up. If I felt Benzo Flu coming on, I would give it a day, and then I would make a decision to updose for one time, which surprisingly worked for me, numerous times to get me out of sxs. And sometimes, I just went back to previous dose and held longer. Once I cut again AFTER holding longer, I was able to continue w/o the dreaded sxs."

 

"Remember the goal is to match medicine intake to where one’s healing is at.”

[[ga...]]

when you are trying to stabilize, how often to you have to dose?

 

It depends on the benzo. I think twice/day is typical for Valium. Some people do OK on once/day. Once you decide what dosing schedule works for you, stick with it. Don't make changes. The brain likes predictability.

[[ja...]]

when you are trying to stabilize, how often to you have to dose?

 

It depends on the benzo. I think twice/day is typical for Valium. Some people do OK on once/day. Once you decide what dosing schedule works for you, stick with it. Don't make changes. The brain likes predictability.

 

Hi garderner,

thank you for this.

i am not new to holding. i read your post in 2016 and it gave me the courage to hold. i held for 4 months after i came off lunesta and xanax at the hospital in 2016- i was severly depressed and had akatasia and was put back on valium and lexapro which i successfully tapered in 2019.

 

right now, i am so unstable that i need to dose often to calm down my anxiety.

 

i am worried about permanent damage from CT and kindling.

i wish i could feel okay on valium and that my symptoms like heart palps, burning and morning panic drop away with the hold

[[ja...]]

Jasmine- I tried a single cut from 5mg to 4.5mg and holy shit that was hard.  So I went back to 5mg to hold and have done DMT since.  But if I can share MY experience and it’s just MINE I had to let my Dr. know.  You got a lot going on with your body right now.  Easy does it.  Sounds like you need to hold for as long as it takes.  Maybe a few months.  I don’t know.  It worked for me.  I held for 5 months.  That may not have been enough time but now I’m doing DMT and I still have symptoms but NOTHING compared to what it was before.  Tolerable but they do suck.  I don’t think there is any way around it. Maybe for some it’s symptom free. But not me.  Holding is the best thing that works for me.

 

Ha ha “snut” made me laugh. 

 

JWL - distraction works.  I find being outside helps.  I worked in the yard last week and it felt so good. Lots of places to do some new gardening.  Today I’m inside watching Civil Rights  activist Rep. John Lewis honoring.  But after I’m gonna go out and water and see my plan of attack for my Maggie “remembrance” garden. 

 

Today - I’m in a window but legs feel weak.  That darn muscle loss. 

 

Hang in all my buddies. 

 

Love,

Meems 💗💗💗💗😻

 

thanks Meem,

are you functioning? and not in constant panic attack?

 

Jasmine - yes I’m functioning but have tolerable symptoms.  Right now it’s stress triggered.  And I’ve learned some techniques (mostly from this group) to deal with symptoms.  To distract - to accept - and to normalize what’s going on.  Panic attacks as opposed to typical anxiety do scare me.  I have to really use my tools.  Nausea Sucks for me. But just hang out here. Hold your dose.  “Try” and relax.  Come here and share. And just normalize what’s happening.  It’s your body adjusting.  Your totally good and your safe.  You’re gonna be just fine. 

Big hug 🤗 to you!

 

what are your tolerable symptoms?

[[ja...]]

do you have symptoms even when you don't taper?

[[ga...]]

when you are trying to stabilize, how often to you have to dose?

 

It depends on the benzo. I think twice/day is typical for Valium. Some people do OK on once/day. Once you decide what dosing schedule works for you, stick with it. Don't make changes. The brain likes predictability.

 

Hi garderner,

thank you for this.

i am not new to holding. i read your post in 2016 and it gave me the courage to hold. i held for 4 months after i came off lunesta and xanax at the hospital in 2016- i was severly depressed and had akatasia and was put back on valium and lexapro which i successfully tapered in 2019.

 

right now, i am so unstable that i need to dose often to calm down my anxiety.

 

i am worried about permanent damage from CT and kindling.

i wish i could feel okay on valium and that my symptoms like heart palps, burning and morning panic drop away with the hold

 

Valium has a very long half life. Most people only need to dose twice/day on it. Have you been to the Valium Support Group? It might be good to see how often others dose. I'm sure there are others on this thread who take Valium who could also share.

 

One reason I crossed from Xanax to Librium was so I didn't have to dose so often. I found that dosing many times/day made me always think about my taper. I really needed to have many hours in the day that I was not thinking about it. Distraction is very important.

 

Read success stories. People have recovered from CT.

 

Distract. Your brain is caught in a worrying loop being fed by tapering too fast. Distraction will help it get out.

[[ja...]]

when you are trying to stabilize, how often to you have to dose?

 

It depends on the benzo. I think twice/day is typical for Valium. Some people do OK on once/day. Once you decide what dosing schedule works for you, stick with it. Don't make changes. The brain likes predictability.

 

Hi garderner,

thank you for this.

i am not new to holding. i read your post in 2016 and it gave me the courage to hold. i held for 4 months after i came off lunesta and xanax at the hospital in 2016- i was severly depressed and had akatasia and was put back on valium and lexapro which i successfully tapered in 2019.

 

right now, i am so unstable that i need to dose often to calm down my anxiety.

 

i am worried about permanent damage from CT and kindling.

i wish i could feel okay on valium and that my symptoms like heart palps, burning and morning panic drop away with the hold

 

Valium has a very long half life. Most people only need to dose twice/day on it. Have you been to the Valium Support Group? It might be good to see how often others dose. I'm sure there are others on this thread who take Valium who could also share.

 

One reason I crossed from Xanax to Librium was so I didn't have to dose so often. I found that dosing many times/day made me always think about my taper. I really needed to have many hours in the day that I was not thinking about it. Distraction is very important.

 

i agree, me too, it gives me so much anxiety to think about my meds, i wish i can just take it once a day. i have to work against the notion that "this is poison"-

i held so long after the rescue dose that kindled me for fear to taking more poison. i even had a seizure.

 

[[Ma...]]

So kids how was everyone's day? I made a big dinner for the fam. Chicken marsala, potatoes and broccoli, snowflake rolls and ice cream for dessert. I'm going to need a tractor to pull my ass around  :laugh:

 

Peace my people✌🏻🙋‍♀️❤️

 

They actually have some good looking small tractors now.  You would look very cute riding one  :laugh:

Yes I would  :laugh:  I want a hot pink one with flames painted on the sides in some bitchin orange and red  :laugh:

 

:2funny:    I bet you can buy one!!  🌿🌿🌿🌿🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🌿🌿🌿🌿.