Under .125 Klonopin Club

[[Wo...]]

Hi Bob,

 

That’s great that you are trying a system that works well for your lifestyle and that you are working and traveling!

 

Also, I am trying to understand your math.

 

How are you getting .001 mg on the gram scale (or maybe you have another way to measure)?

 

I use the gram scale and make .001 g reductions.

 

For instance, I am on .0337 mg which equals to .012 grams on the scale.

 

I have been doing very minute cuts of .001 - .003 g as I’ve gotten lower and lower which is around 5-10% of my dose.

 

If you make 30 pills and each pill is less .001 mg you are going to be cutting a lot as the numbers get smaller.

 

I went down by 10% per week until I got to around .07 then found I was going way way too fast. I switched over to the long hold method and have been going super slow every since...

 

Kristen, I have been taking Mylan this whole time. I refuse any other generic because I know they are not all created equal. Bob, that could be true that someone changed generic. Hmm..

[[...]]

Am I the only one on this thread taking the generic brand?

 

I only take brand name Klonopin because of the reasons cited on the other link - i.e. when your drug store changes from one generic manufacturer to another, you could get over 20% change in effectiveness.  You can avoid this problem by watching the label on your pill bottle to make sure the manufacturer is always the same.

[[...]]

Hi Bob,

 

That’s great that you are trying a system that works well for your lifestyle and that you are working and traveling!

 

Also, I am trying to understand your math.

 

How are you getting .001 mg on the gram scale (or maybe you have another way to measure)?

 

I use the gram scale and make .001 g reductions.

 

For instance, I am on .0337 mg which equals to .012 grams on the scale.

 

I have been doing very minute cuts of .001 - .003 g as I’ve gotten lower and lower which is around 5-10% of my dose.

 

If you make 30 pills and each pill is less .001 mg you are going to be cutting a lot as the numbers get smaller.

 

I went down by 10% per week until I got to around .07 then found I was going way way too fast. I switched over to the long hold method and have been going super slow every since...

 

Kristen, I have been taking Mylan this whole time. I refuse any other generic because I know they are not all created equal. Bob, that could be true that someone changed generic. Hmm..

 

Hi Wonderwoman23,

 

I never need to measure 0.001 mg on the gram scale.  That would be impossible.  Te best the scale can see is maybe 0.001 grams.  Remember, there are 1000 mg in a gram.

 

So what is the trick.  I will explain it using my sugar example because I just got the Microcrystalline Cellulose and have not done the math for it yet. 

 

But for sugar, I had to add 21.21 grams of sugar to 7 crushed Klonopin tablets to get a total dry mix of 22.4 grams.

 

My first pill then needed 0.8 grams of the mix to give me exactly 0.125mg Klonopin (my current hold dose).

 

For the second day, I make the pill about 0.0064 grams less in weight which comes out to exactly 0.001 mg less Klonopin.

 

So do you see where the 0.001 mg Klonopin reduction comes from?

 

It is easy to weigh a reduction of 0.0064 GRAMS of mixture on the scale which gives me 0.001 mg less Klonopin each day.

 

I agree with you about how you cut more by percent as the numbers get smaller.  So I plan to modify each month.  This first month of pills is 0.001mg less per pill.  Next month, I will make a new batch based on how I feel.  Most likely, a smaller cut per day.

 

The Microcrystalline Cellulose came in the mail yesterday.  So I will now make the real pills and start this evening with my daily taper.

 

I hope you can start your taper soon too.  Perhaps we can share in the anxiety of leaving our hold.  Mine was an 8 week hold.

 

[[Kr...]]

Am I the only one on this thread taking the generic brand?

 

I only take brand name Klonopin because of the reasons cited on the other link - i.e. when your drug store changes from one generic manufacturer to another, you could get over 20% change in effectiveness.  You can avoid this problem by watching the label on your pill bottle to make sure the manufacturer is always the same.

 

Oh geez, I never knew that.  I've had the same generic manufacture for quite some time, but it was changed at one point a couple years back.  I remember asking the pharmacist about it and being told there was no difference in the medication...just the fillers.  I had no idea that there could be such a huge change in effectiveness.  It makes me want to just stop the medication completely at this point so I don't have to factor in the affects of the individual pills on my withdrawal symptoms.  At least I wouldn't have to attribute any of my withdrawal symptoms to discrepancies in pill effectiveness if I jumped.  But alas, I won't.  Not ready to jump at this point fearing symptoms could get much worse.  I think I'll just bury my head in the sand and keep tapering the way I am.  Until I change my mind.

[[...]]

Am I the only one on this thread taking the generic brand?

 

I only take brand name Klonopin because of the reasons cited on the other link - i.e. when your drug store changes from one generic manufacturer to another, you could get over 20% change in effectiveness.  You can avoid this problem by watching the label on your pill bottle to make sure the manufacturer is always the same.

 

Oh geez, I never knew that.  I've had the same generic manufacture for quite some time, but it was changed at one point a couple years back.  I remember asking the pharmacist about it and being told there was no difference in the medication...just the fillers.  I had no idea that there could be such a huge change in effectiveness.  It makes me want to just stop the medication completely at this point so I don't have to factor in the affects of the individual pills on my withdrawal symptoms.  At least I wouldn't have to attribute any of my withdrawal symptoms to discrepancies in pill effectiveness if I jumped.  But alas, I won't.  Not ready to jump at this point fearing symptoms could get much worse.  I think I'll just bury my head in the sand and keep tapering the way I am.  Until I change my mind.

Hi KristinM,

Another BB and I were talking about this yesterday.  Most likely, almost for sure, as long as the manufacturer doesn't change, you will not have this problem.  I sure hope that is true.  If each manufacturer was allowed so much variation, it would be horrible.

 

[[...]]

Hi Everyone,

 

I made my pills - 30 of them - each exactly 0.001 mg less Klonopin.

 

I start the taper tonight.  In 30 days I will go from 0.125 mg to 0.095 mg.

 

Wonderwomen23 - I need to tell you, the Microcrystalline Cellulose you recommended blends perfectly with the Klonopin - it like it was made for cutting Klonopin.  I absolutely love it.  Thanks.

 

 

[[He...]]

Good luck Bob!  Sounds like a good plan to get you to the finish line!!!

[[Kr...]]

Yes, good luck Bob! Your pill experiment sounds cool!

[[Wo...]]

Bob that’s exciting! So glad it’s working out.

 

My scale only measures to .001 grams it seems you have a better scale than me and it goes down to .0001. What brand is it?

 

I could remain dry cutting with a scale like that!

[[...]]

Bob that’s exciting! So glad it’s working out.

 

My scale only measures to .001 grams it seems you have a better scale than me and it goes down to .0001. What brand is it?

 

I could remain dry cutting with a scale like that!

WW23,

My scale is also only goes down to 0.001gram.  When I wrote 0.0064 grams, I am rounding off the last digit in my readings.  But that is in the noise.  0.0064 grams is 6.4 milligrams.  A very large number compared to the 0.001 milligrams of Klonopin I am reducing per day.  It is 6,000 times larger so I am, for all practical purposes, exactly reducing by 0.001 milligrams per day.

 

This is my scale https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B011J88S8M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

[[Gr...]]

Bob- That's amazing that you made your own pills.  It does make me realize that if the drug companies WANTED to help us taper off any medication, they could.  I mean, nothing is stopping them from making it easy to get all sorts of different dosages. 

 

Kristin- I have been taking generics for years.  I never noticed any difference but who knows.  At this point, I wouldn't switch willingly to anything different than what I am already taking. Though, I am using my .25mg pills now, and I also have .5mg tablets, and who knows if they are made by the same people or what?

 

WW- did you start your liquid taper yet or are you going to hold a bit longer?

 

I am having some sinus congestion.  I think it's allergies but it just feels so much worse than I ever remember them before.  It's like normal things are just magnified.  I know allergies are not comfortable, but usually I can work around them.  For me they are seasonal, and I only get them very bad sometimes in the Spring.  They usually are only for a month, and right about now, end of April is normal for me.  I remember last year I had a terrible sore throat which I got penicillin for even though the doctor was convinced it was not strep throat.  Now I am starting to have a sore throat again.  UGH.  Maybe it WAS just allergies last year as well.

 

I am still holding at .0625mg.  I see no reason to cut yet.  I feel awful on so many levels.  My cat accidentally got stuck in my son's bedroom last night, and I was woken up twice by him.  The first time I couldn't find him, and then he woke me up AGAIN.  Then my nose hurt and I was up for at least an hour trying to not pay attention to it and get back to sleep. 

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Hi GreenCup,

 

Sounds like you got an Allergy to tree pollens-I know every spring for about a month I have the same thing-I was able to watch the pollen counts and determined it was Juniper-whenever Juniper is blooming or doing it’s pollen thing I am sick the entire time.

 

We’ve had a long spring here in mid Missouri USA which made for a longer tree pollen season.

 

As I recall relief comes when the temperatures get really warm.

 

 

 

[[Gr...]]

Yes Bob- I'm sure it is a tree pollen.  I think it was Cedar pollen, just based on weather reports, but I'm not sure.  I gotta check the weather.  It's weird, cause my son has a similar allergy but his is definitely to a different tree than mine, cause when his is worse mine is better, and vice versa. 

[[Kr...]]

Green Cup, I hear ya on the allergies this time of year.  I think they make symptoms worse with the inflammation they cause. I'm pretty sure I posted about this last year shortly after I joined in May.  I have to just wait until the temp heats up so the allergens die down.  I don't know what I'm allergic to.  Palo Verde trees are in full bloom here in Arizona, but I also get it bad in the fall.  My head feels like a heavy water balloon, so full of fluid.  I can consciously move the fluid around and drain it (I know, weird, but you learn things when you are homebound, stuck in your body and practice meditation). 

 

I'm still holding as well.  I'm going on my 5th week now and I feel worse.  Hoping it's just the allergies that are making things extra difficult.

[[Wo...]]

Hi everyone. Happy Sunday.

 

My son has really bad allergies to tree pollens and I feel so bad for him. I grew out of my allergies as a teen but I’ve had some weird issues pop up in withdrawal that I’ve never had like chemical and food sensitivities. Right now my skin is reacting to the sun in a way I’ve not had before. Super sensitive.

 

I am still dry cutting and holding at .034. I haven’t had milk in a year so I tried drinking it a couple days in a row and it didn’t agree with my digestion. So I won’t be doing the liquid titration in milk.

 

Still dealing with fears around trying the liquid titration. I can’t do alcohol and the thought of propylene glycol which the holistic Dr. Axe advises to stay away from (with all my food sensitivities right now I don’t see why I’d take a petroleum product daily). That leaves simple water titration or remain on the dry cutting.

 

Bob, you mentioned you are rounding up. Since I’m so low and my cuts are so tiny and going to get even tinier I will need to find a scale that can weigh less than .001.

 

So, I’ll hold a little bit longer. My days are all windows and waves back to back all day. I am grateful for the windows and really sick of the waves.

 

I wish I knew for 100% certain that my body is healing. I am just trusting those who have come before!

[[Gr...]]

WW- You can use soy or almond milk or any nut milk that has fat in it.  I've been using soy milk for my liquid titration.

 

Re:  Pollen Allergies

 

UGH.  I stupidly opened the window yesterday for a few hours because it was so nice out, and now I am kicking myself for that.  Has anyone taken allergy meds during withdrawal? I use to use Flonase, but then it started to make me feel weird- like anxious and stuff, and I think that's cause it is a steroid and actually a known side effect.  I also lost my sense of smell years ago, and I don't think Flonase helped at all with that. 

 

I actually think benzos killed my smell, I have never mentioned that here on this board, cause I completely forget that I can hardly smell anything. 

[[...]]

Hi GreenCup,

 

I take allergy meds during withdrawal.  Sometimes I think they make my withdrawal worse but other times I think they make it better.  Perhaps it is unrelated - I blame much of my problems on withdrawal.

 

I actually like a Benedryl before bed for allergies because I sleep better.  Perhaps the best thing I did for the month of tree allergy season was to buy one of these for my bedroom:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IDHBP6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

I do hope you fill better.

[[Kr...]]

GreenCup, I don't take anything, however I diffuse eucalyptus and lavender oils while I sleep and feel that is helpful.  I also avoid going outside as much as possible which I hate because the sun is so healing for me.  When I was in tolerance withdrawal I went to a naturopath and tried a variety of allergy tinctures and a Neti pot.  Nothing worked.  When I came off Clonazepam in 2016 I went to the doctor with terrible sinus pressure and a feeling there was fluid in my ears.  They recommended over the counter meds and Flonase.  Flonase revved me up so bad.  Had no idea I was in withdrawal at the time.  Ended up at the opthamologist because I temporarily lost vision in my left eye a few days later.  All withdrawal but I think the Flonase contributed.  I'd tried some over the counter allergy meds in the past and they all made me feel weird.  I hope you get some relief, and I hope you get your sense of smell back!

 

[[Gr...]]

Kristin -Wow - you lost the sight in one eye?  That is messed up.  I started being sensitive to all yeast infection and steroid drugs during my taper, as well as I kept seeming to have problems that make doctors prescribe these drugs also, during my taper.  Your story with withdrawal sounds similar to my withdrawal in 2007 & 2008.  I was pregnant, so I thought all the things had to do with pregnancy, and my husband and I didn't know any better.  Come to find that the whole damn pregnancy was riddled with withdrawal symptoms.    Come to think of it,  I had the WORST hayfever then as well.  And after I reinstated, my allergies got better each year, until last year.  I actually saw your old thread about allergies on here from last year when I was searching earlier today. 

[[Wo...]]

Hi Greencup

 

Are you still doing liquid titration I’m confused a bit by your signature?

 

If so, how was the transition from pill to liquid for you?

 

Good to know about the soy milk. Do you dissolve in alcohol first?

 

The only thing I’ve done for allergies years ago was a homeopathic remedy called Pollenase (I currently can no longer find it). It really worked and I’ve never had bad allergies since (other than when I lived in Portland one summer that was awful).

 

When I had that horrible bronchitis a few weeks back I bought an air purifier and I think it helped a lot. I couldn’t stop sneezing before I used it and within a day that cleared up.

 

What about Benadryl? I’ve taken it for sleep during my taper and it seemed to be okay.

 

Kristin, sorry about all the complications! Really glad we are all taking it slow now.

[[Gr...]]

I'm NOT doing the liquid right now.  But I was doing it to get here.  Right now I'm just splitting my .25mg tablet into fourths. 

 

I experience no difference going from tablet to liquid and back again.  I've now gone between them a few times.    The first time I went to liquid I did feel very anxious but I think it was just the anxiety of changing things, more than anything else. 

 

I don't dissolve it alcohol first,  I just put the tablet in my measured out 100ml of soy milk, let it sit for 20 minutes or soy, then I shake it up, and measure out my 13ml or whatever it is I am taking that night.  The rest I put the lid on and into the fridge.  The next night, I already have it mixed to take my 13ml from. 

 

I am going to take some benadryl tonight.  I don't know why these allergies feel worse than any before them.  Though last years were also pretty bad.

[[Kr...]]

Kristin -Wow - you lost the sight in one eye?  That is messed up.  I started being sensitive to all yeast infection and steroid drugs during my taper, as well as I kept seeming to have problems that make doctors prescribe these drugs also, during my taper.  Your story with withdrawal sounds similar to my withdrawal in 2007 & 2008.  I was pregnant, so I thought all the things had to do with pregnancy, and my husband and I didn't know any better.  Come to find that the whole damn pregnancy was riddled with withdrawal symptoms.    Come to think of it,  I had the WORST hayfever then as well.  And after I reinstated, my allergies got better each year, until last year.  I actually saw your old thread about allergies on here from last year when I was searching earlier today.

 

Oh that is awful that you were in withdrawal during pregnancy!  It is very messed up that we have had the experience of suffering so miserably while being in the dark about what was causing it.  I think the steroid spray contributed to the vision loss.  It was quick, lasting only a couple hours, but terrifying. Prior to that I was having all kinds of floaters, etc.  With all the other crazy nerve issues and intense headaches, I was sure I was dying. The eye doctor did a thorough exam and assured me my eyes were healthy.  She said it was most likely an occipital migraine.  I stopped using all over the counter and prescription medications after that (apart from Clonazepam and Trazodone which I have been on for years will eventually taper from).  I haven't even had a Tylenol.  Drives my husband insane.  He wants me to try stuff for muscle pain (Motrin, Tylenol) but everything freaks me out.

 

Regarding relief from sinus pressure/head congestion: Have you tried any types of facial self-massage?  There are youtube videos showing how to massage different accupressure points as well as techniques to aid in lymphatic drainate.  I can't find the one that shows what I do, but it definitely helps.  You might want to experiment?  Also, there are certain yoga poses that can help the pressure.  It sounds counterintuitive, but a forward bend can help.  Just let you head hang heavy for a minute or so and stuff will start moving.

 

WonderWoman - I am glad we are all taking it slow too!!  And I do think our bodies are healing as we go down in dosage.  I feel a lot of my mental clarity is coming back.  At the beginning of this taper there were days, weeks, months that I just could not focus and now I can.  Not always for long, but there are windows.  Just wish the physical stuff would catch up!

 

[[...]]

Hi KristinM,

 

In looking at your progress log, you have a very consistent taper - one of the most dedicated and uniform I have seen.

 

I have to ask, even with this wonderfully planned out and executed taper, you say even though the mental clarity is coming back, you still have physical stuff.  How bad or what is the physical stuff? 

 

I ask because I am having a good window and so started my taper again but I am wondering if I should brace myself for the horrible stuff to come back.  In short, does your slower, well balanced taper prevent the really horrible symptoms?

[[Kr...]]

Bob,

 

Every situation is so unique.  My taper looks well planned out but it was a mess in the beginning and I think that's why I'm suffering so much.  When I reinstated in 2016, I never fully got stable.  Once I started to taper again at the beginning of 2017, I had no idea how to do so and was just alternating dosages between .25 and .125 per doctor's advice, slowly adding more days of .125.  So I'd take .25 tablet one night, and then .125 the next 3.  Physical and emotional symptoms became evident and I was still not aware it was due withdrawal.  It wasn't until last May (5 months into the messed-up-alternating-dosage taper) that the lightbulb went on that my symptoms were due to withdrawal. At that time, I learned how to properly taper through this forum.  I should have probably just gotten as stable as possible at .25 again, but I started reducing from the average daily dose I was taking which was around .18mg.  My physical symptoms were horrendous (mainly nerve stuff: internal tremoring, tingling, burning, pulsing, etc.) and have never fully gone away.  I just figured they wouldn't and that I needed to keep slowly moving down in dosage in order to get off.

 

I really don't think you will have these problems if you feel like you've stabilized at a dosage.  Unfortunately, I've never felt that...stabilized.  I don't think you should worry.  You are doing great!  Keep going at your pace and try not to worry too much. Thanks for telling me that my taper schedule looked good though!  I did the best I could  with the information I had at the time.

 

[[...]]

Thanks for responding KristinM.

 

It is indeed a shame you had to suffer for so long with a fast or uninformed taper.  I totally understand why, at the time, you didn't go back up from 0.18mg to get stable before starting your new taper method.  It would be hard to go back up again, but I guess if it allows one to get stable, I would consider it. 

 

You have had some really hard decisions to make with little or incorrect information.  All things considered, you have done an amazing job.

 

I do hope the physical symptoms go away for you  Perhaps once we are totally off the benzo, the body will recover from those last remaining symptoms. 

 

To that hope, I found this post helpful today -  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=116197.0

 

Bob