Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Sh...]]

Hi MT Buddies,

 

Question?  Is is normal to feel some mild sx while switching from pills to the liquid? 

 

I am on day four and have a bit more tension in my head / jaw (like I had when a supplement triggered some WD sx's for a while in May / June.)

 

I am in the process of interviewing for a job and know that if I am hired it will be a bit stressful to start a new job in a new industry and the normal learning curve / prove yourself that goes with such a situation.  But that is life...I have a kiddo to take care of so there is no option other than to keep on pushing ahead and do everything I can to hold everything together.  This is a day at a time process, and sometimes it is hour to hour.

 

Hope everyone is doing well.  Sending positive thoughts to everyone. 

 

Hang tough!

Shalom,

Shaani

 

In a word, yes. I've heard many people say they had symptoms when they switched. I think Sir Sharkey says wait a week at your current dose after you switch to liquid just to make sure you give your body time to adjust. I sympathize with adding extra stress on top of your taper. I think you need to proceed slowly and with caution with your taper if you know you have unavoidable stressors coming up. You have the right attitude, one day, one hour at a time. 

 

Good luck with the interviewing. Hope you get the job if it's right for you! Let us know!

 

Gardener

 

Thank you Gardener.  I know I have to go slowly with the taper once I start.  I have to get the poison out of my system.  Sharkey told me a week is the minimum amount of time to stay at my normal dose, so I am planning on waiting 10 days.  I will let everyone know about the job situation.  I am still on severance so I have a few months left, so I am not going to stress over it. 

 

Shaani

[[do...]]

Hello MT Buddies,

 

Just a little update:  I am on day 3 of my switch to liquid at my normal dose.  Today I appear to be adjusting to the change better.  Just had a bit of irritability and anxiety but I am going to have to find a better way to deal with it because I really want to be successful in my taper.  I want the old me back.

 

Welcome to all the newbies.  I am a newbie too.

 

Thank you all for your continued info and support.  I could not do this without you.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Doodle Dog,

 

I am glad to hear you are doing better. Just make sure you swirl the liquid before measuring and once you have taken your dose, add some water to the container and drink.  Better to be cautious.

 

Have a great day

 

Anne

 

Hey Anne,

 

Thanks for your response.  Yes, I am doing exactly what you said....swirling and adding water to the cup that I just drank from to drink too.  Seems to be working good.

 

I hope that your taper is going well.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle Dog,

 

Thank you for asking. I am so happy to hear that you are feeling a bit better today.  Were you stabilized on your dose before you started using the liquid? For my first taper, I was completely stabilized, but not for this one.  I do feel better than I did just a few weeks ago though. My symptoms now are manageable and much less intense.  I hope it is the same for you.  I think patience is the key. I have tapered down from 0.75 mg/day to 0.56 mg/day. I will be down to where you are in November if all goes well. 

 

I wish you a good day tomorrow!!

Anne

 

Hello Anne,

 

I guess that I was pretty stable when I switched over to liquids.  I have been on my current dose since Dec. 2014.

 

It is good to hear that your taper is getting better and more manageable. 

 

It is interesting how just switching from the pills to liquid can have such an impact.  By Sunday I will have been on the liquid for 7 days so I plan to begin my taper then.

 

So you already figured out how much you will be down to in November.  I need to see if I can figure that out too.  And, of course, if all goes well.  You are right about being patient.

 

May you continue to heal

doodle dog

[[an...]]

Hi SG,

 

I have not done much research on the solubility of Lorazepam.  Back in 2007, for my first taper, I read that the solubility in water was much less than 0.1g/L. We consider a value like that to mean insoluble. I remember finding a paper (or I could have found it in a handbook) that stated the solubility of lorazepam in 95% ethanol was greater, but I do not remember the value now.  I decided to use water for the taper (taper was very successful).  Regardless of the reported solubility, I assumed the lorazepam was insoluble so I made sure to agitate the mixture and then quickly measure out my doses.  I also add water to the container and drink the rinse water.

 

I have not looked up the solubility of lorazepam in ethanol recently so I cannot discuss this in terms of quantity, but if a certain amount is indeed soluble in ethanol, and water is added to the solution, it is possible that some of the medication can precipitate out--different factors like temperature, etc. will affect the solubility.  If using 2 mL of 95 % (v/v) ethanol solution and then diluting that to 100 mL we end up with a 1.9% (v/v) ethanol solution--the solubility of the drug is lowered.  Yes, you are right, it is more easily dissolved in the water since it has already been dissolved by the ethanol.

 

The Lorazepam molecule is fairly large and only somewhat polar which is why so little of it dissolves in water--less than 0.1 g/L.  As you said, it is true that it could take a long time to dissolve (as long as you are not trying to dissolve more than the given solubility). Mixing would be very important-for how long I do not know. It could be a few minutes or several hours or a day or more.  Temperature will also affect the solubility as well as a host of other things. For example, I was instructing my students on how to make an aqueous solution with 1,10-phenanthroline (this is used to detect iron in water).  It is considered a slightly soluble compound.  Anyway, the students were told to dissolve 0.1 g of the substance into 100 mL of water.  The solubility is about 3 g/L so they thought there would be no problem.  Well the substance was not dissolving and of course the students were perplexed. I told them to stir.  They did for an hour or so with no results.  Finally I told them to add some heat while stirring.  After another hour they had a solution--all of the substance dissolved. Once the solution cooled down, the substance stayed in solution. The point is, it took a while to get the slightly soluble substance into solution.

Unfortunately, we cannot do a visual inspection with the pills because of the insoluble fillers. Yes, it would be interesting to run a series of tests with a standard to determine how long it would take to dissolve. Could be a good project for one of my students this coming fall semester.

 

I think that, just to be cautious, one should swirl the liquid before measuring out a dose regardless of whether they use alcohol or just plain old H₂O. Also adding a bit of water to the container and drinking the rinse is a good idea. Again, the temperature of the water can make a difference in time it takes for the drug to dissolve.

 

I am sorry this sounds like one of my chemistry lectures. I probably got a bit carried away here. My main point is, this works regardless of the other variables that can affect the solubility.  Keep it simple. Mix, measure, drink, and rinse.  It has worked for me in the past and is working very well for me now.  SG, you are right that the couple of mL of alcohol helps speed up the process.

 

Anne

 

Hi Anne,

 

Great to have a chemist around.  I'm a mechanical engineer and know enough chemistry to be dangerous.  I've studied some chemistry and am around chemists and material engineers, but I really don't have all that great a grasp of it so I am very glad you are here.

 

Here is a thread you might find interesting...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

A researcher named Jouyban published papers on benzo solubility and edited a handbook of drug solubility.  His data is in posts #37 and #46.  There is a full set of lorazepam (and other common benzos) data there from for ethanol/water mixtures from 0-100%.  Tailor made for us.  He reports lorazepam solubility in water as .05mg/ml peaking at about 18mg/ml in the mixture.  Weird thing is all these benzos peak before they hit 100% ethanol...around 85-90%.  I have scoured the internet looking for other data sources and he appears to be it.

 

I'm glad you mentioned temperature as not refrigerating the liquid might be another precaution for everyone here to be aware of.  In fact, using slightly warm water might also be a good idea, don't you think?

 

Were you serious about having a student measure dissolution time?  That would be fantastic!  One of the frustrations in all of this is not being able to confirm the information we find.

 

SG,

 

Thank you. I could tell from your post that you have some chemistry background.  Thank you for the links. I just downloaded both papers and will look them over this weekend.  This is great!!  Again, I did not research benzo solubility because the water works well for me. Now, I am interested!! You did a great job with the plot and solubility table!!  I will look through the databases to see if I can find any information on the solubility of Xanax in alcohol. Yes, it is interesting how the solubilities peak 85-90 % ethanol and decrease to 100% ethanol.  Something to think about. From the data it is obvious that some water is necessary for maximum solubility.

 

Yes, I might see if one of my students would be interested in doing a study or maybe I could do it myself if time permits.

 

Yes, I think advising people to not refrigerate their liquid is a good idea.  If they do refrigerate, they should let it sit at room temp for a while and then swirl it before measuring their dose. Using room temperature water would be much better than ice cold water.

 

Anne

[[an...]]

Hello MT Buddies,

 

Just a little update:  I am on day 3 of my switch to liquid at my normal dose.  Today I appear to be adjusting to the change better.  Just had a bit of irritability and anxiety but I am going to have to find a better way to deal with it because I really want to be successful in my taper.  I want the old me back.

 

Welcome to all the newbies.  I am a newbie too.

 

Thank you all for your continued info and support.  I could not do this without you.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Doodle Dog,

 

I am glad to hear you are doing better. Just make sure you swirl the liquid before measuring and once you have taken your dose, add some water to the container and drink.  Better to be cautious.

 

Have a great day

 

Anne

 

Hey Anne,

 

Thanks for your response.  Yes, I am doing exactly what you said....swirling and adding water to the cup that I just drank from to drink too.  Seems to be working good.

 

I hope that your taper is going well.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle Dog,

 

Thank you for asking. I am so happy to hear that you are feeling a bit better today.  Were you stabilized on your dose before you started using the liquid? For my first taper, I was completely stabilized, but not for this one.  I do feel better than I did just a few weeks ago though. My symptoms now are manageable and much less intense.  I hope it is the same for you.  I think patience is the key. I have tapered down from 0.75 mg/day to 0.56 mg/day. I will be down to where you are in November if all goes well. 

 

I wish you a good day tomorrow!!

Anne

 

Hello Anne,

 

I guess that I was pretty stable when I switched over to liquids.  I have been on my current dose since Dec. 2014.

 

It is good to hear that your taper is getting better and more manageable. 

 

It is interesting how just switching from the pills to liquid can have such an impact.  By Sunday I will have been on the liquid for 7 days so I plan to begin my taper then.

 

So you already figured out how much you will be down to in November.  I need to see if I can figure that out too.  And, of course, if all goes well.  You are right about being patient.

 

May you continue to heal

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle,

 

Some do feel some effects when switching to liquid. I think it could be due to some error in measurement or the fact that the benzo is dissolved  and the effects are felt more quickly.    I am not sure why some feel it more than others.  I think it is more do to the dose preparation and how one doses.

 

So, are you feeling about the same as you did before you started the liquid?  It is good to hear you will start the taper soon.  I feel much better now than when I first started. I do have my moments, but for the most part it is good. I am thankful that I am able to work.

 

I look forward to hearing about your taper progress.

 

Have a good evening,

Anne

[[do...]]

Hi MT Buddies,

 

Question?  Is is normal to feel some mild sx while switching from pills to the liquid? 

 

I am on day four and have a bit more tension in my head / jaw (like I had when a supplement triggered some WD sx's for a while in May / June.)

 

I am in the process of interviewing for a job and know that if I am hired it will be a bit stressful to start a new job in a new industry and the normal learning curve / prove yourself that goes with such a situation.  But that is life...I have a kiddo to take care of so there is no option other than to keep on pushing ahead and do everything I can to hold everything together.  This is a day at a time process, and sometimes it is hour to hour.

 

Hope everyone is doing well.  Sending positive thoughts to everyone. 

 

Hang tough!

Shalom,

Shaani

 

Hey Shaani,

 

Yes, I just switched to liquid last Sunday, so this is day 5 for me.  I have been experiencing what feels like withdrawal symptoms, like headaches, jaw tightness, irritability and tiredness. 

 

Today I almost wanted to go back on the pills then I remembered why I started this process.  I do not like me on ativan.  So I guess that I need to be patient.

 

Moodle wrote an excellent post to Gardener today that might be a good read for you right now.  I felt inspired by it.

 

So sorry that you have extra stress with having a job interview.  I am sending good thoughts your way for a positive out come.

 

Here's to our continued healing.

doodle dog

 

[[We...]]

Thanks Jeff/Ultra and Doodle dog Its nice to be back amongst you fine folk.

 

and yes Shaani,

 

like others have said, some people do notice a difference when switching to liquid

Hang in there, your body can adjust. and then you can be on your way to get off of these.

Good luck with your job situation. Let us know how it all goes

 

hugs

shannon

[[do...]]

Hello MT Buddies,

 

Just a little update:  I am on day 3 of my switch to liquid at my normal dose.  Today I appear to be adjusting to the change better.  Just had a bit of irritability and anxiety but I am going to have to find a better way to deal with it because I really want to be successful in my taper.  I want the old me back.

 

Welcome to all the newbies.  I am a newbie too.

 

Thank you all for your continued info and support.  I could not do this without you.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Doodle Dog,

 

I am glad to hear you are doing better. Just make sure you swirl the liquid before measuring and once you have taken your dose, add some water to the container and drink.  Better to be cautious.

 

Have a great day

 

Anne

 

Hey Anne,

 

Thanks for your response.  Yes, I am doing exactly what you said....swirling and adding water to the cup that I just drank from to drink too.  Seems to be working good.

 

I hope that your taper is going well.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle Dog,

 

Thank you for asking. I am so happy to hear that you are feeling a bit better today.  Were you stabilized on your dose before you started using the liquid? For my first taper, I was completely stabilized, but not for this one.  I do feel better than I did just a few weeks ago though. My symptoms now are manageable and much less intense.  I hope it is the same for you.  I think patience is the key. I have tapered down from 0.75 mg/day to 0.56 mg/day. I will be down to where you are in November if all goes well. 

 

I wish you a good day tomorrow!!

Anne

 

Hello Anne,

 

I guess that I was pretty stable when I switched over to liquids.  I have been on my current dose since Dec. 2014.

 

It is good to hear that your taper is getting better and more manageable. 

 

It is interesting how just switching from the pills to liquid can have such an impact.  By Sunday I will have been on the liquid for 7 days so I plan to begin my taper then.

 

So you already figured out how much you will be down to in November.  I need to see if I can figure that out too.  And, of course, if all goes well.  You are right about being patient.

 

May you continue to heal

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle,

 

Some do feel some effects when switching to liquid. I think it could be due to some error in measurement or the fact that the benzo is dissolved  and the effects are felt more quickly.    I am not sure why some feel it more than others.  I think it is more do to the dose preparation and how one doses.

 

So, are you feeling about the same as you did before you started the liquid?  It is good to hear you will start the taper soon.  I feel much better now than when I first started. I do have my moments, but for the most part it is good. I am thankful that I am able to work.

 

I look forward to hearing about your taper progress.

 

Have a good evening,

Anne

 

Hi Anne,

 

I am one of those people that has a very sensitive system.  When my ativan  is filled with a different manufacturer I can feel a difference.  So I finally got them to only use the same manufacturer.

 

No, I do not feel the same as being on the pills.  So maybe, I have done something wrong in the preparation.  I have read all of your and SG posts, which are interesting but way over my head, however, I  am glad to report that I do use room temperature water and do not refrigerate it.

 

You have a nice evening too.

With gratitude,

doodle dog

[[We...]]

And congrats Doodle Dog, on the switch.

 

That's exciting. Even though you are having those symptoms, hang in there. switching to liquid is such a good step and will make this process so much easier for you.

 

hugs,

Shannon

[[We...]]

Doodle,

 

I also have a very sensitive system. I can notice those changes, too ie. switching filler ingredients in meds or supplements etc. I know it's not just a placebo because there have been times my medications have been changed without me even knowing, and I've experienced symptoms, only to find out the change later. So, I have no doubt a solid to liquid change will cause sensitive systems to notice it.

 

I wouldn't worry. I don't think you did anything wrong. I would just give your body time to adjust to the liquid. even if it takes a couple of weeks. and then you can start to taper again.

 

hugs to you and hang in there.

 

shannon

[[do...]]

And congrats Doodle Dog, on the switch.

 

That's exciting. Even though you are having those symptoms, hang in there. switching to liquid is such a good step and will make this process so much easier for you.

 

hugs,

Shannon

 

Thanks so much Shannon.  Much appreciated.

 

doodle dog

 

[[do...]]

Doodle,

 

I also have a very sensitive system. I can notice those changes, too ie. switching filler ingredients in meds or supplements etc. I know it's not just a placebo because there have been times my medications have been changed without me even knowing, and I've experienced symptoms, only to find out the change later. So, I have no doubt a solid to liquid change will cause sensitive systems to notice it.

 

I wouldn't worry. I don't think you did anything wrong. I would just give your body time to adjust to the liquid. even if it takes a couple of weeks. and then you can start to taper again.

 

hugs to you and hang in there.

 

shannon

 

Thanks again, Shannon.  I really appreciate the encouragement and support.

 

I missed your cheery words.

 

I guess it is all about listening to our bodies, going slow and being patient.

 

Hugs back at you.

doodle dog

[[do...]]

OK, fellow benzo warriors. Trying to sort this out. Is it really possible that cutting .002mg Xanax per day is too fast a taper?? Here's why I'm wondering…

 

I have developed agoraphobia this summer. I read that benzo use can actually cause that. I've been pushing the edges of it, trying to go out into anxiety-producing places in spite of how I feel. When I push too hard, I have an anxiety wave (as in paralyzed and nonfunctioning) that lasts for hours, especially if I hit a ptsd trigger along the way.

 

What I can't sort out is whether these walls I keep hitting are from tapering too fast or from pushing on the edges of my ptsd/agoraphobia too hard. If the Xanax is actually making these symptoms worse, then I need to keep cutting away. But if the cutting is causing it, I need to slow down.

 

My son has taken off of work for a few days to help me settle back down and make sure I'm taking care of myself. My daughter is considering coming home from an internship she is doing this summer because of this. She was very worried when I talked to her this morning and wanted to get on a bus tomorrow. I told her to wait a few days while I try to work out a new strategy. I feel like the stakes are high because this is affecting my kids, and I need to make the right decision.

 

Right now I am holding for a few days and then plan to try .002 every other day. But when I do the math on that, I figure I will be dead of old age before I finish my taper! 

 

Anybody else run into a problem like this or just have a gut feeling about what's at the root of this? I'm open to all suggestions!

 

I've dealt with the same issue throughout my taper, Goodle (... )

When I'd go to the store , for example, and had to wait in line, I felt like I was going to pass out or something. It's the lights, the smells, the people. I felt so alien from everything and everyone.

Many members experience this. Kind of keep to themselves for a while till you have some window where thighs are more bearable.

When I was In a window, I'd be able to pull it off. But I wasn't comfortable around people, God forbid the doorbell rang , didn't answer the phone and didn't socialize  at all. No restaurants, etc.

You get the drift .

On good days I would be able to tolerate it and do groceries, but always glad when I was home. Just no desire to be around people and not feeling connected to people and things.

 

So, this got better as I went further in my taper. I think maybe you're just really sensitive right now to impressions and your senses can be hightened. After all, your CNS has been affected, so it makes sense to me that this is what's going on.

At the start of my taper it would freak me out ( causing more anxiety ) till I accepted that being by myself and here and there with some good friend,s worked for ME during this tapering period and that's the way it was going to be for a while, since I didn't want to put myself through it each time I did it anyway.

As you may know, I have been home for most of the time during the first half of my taper and right now I'm overseas, just like I did in November, by myself. Just to say : see? It gets better.

I go out for dinner again, I have friends over some days ( they know I can cancel last minute or just tell them it's too much now when they have been there for over and hour ) and I am doing all my own groceries again, no problem.

For me it was horror to run in to people at the store. But lately I find myself enjoying small talk again most times.

 

I hope that this helps. So you can see you're not alone in this, if you recognize it.

It went lots better as I got used to the rhythm of the taper. I'd say maybe get used to it a bit longer an things will settle. You'll also experience these ups and downs without freakingnout over them too much, since you will have gone through it a few times and know better times actually be around the corner. It could be real crap one day and Great the next. Try and go with the flow of it. And don't be too worried .

 

Hello Moodle,

 

Great post.  Thanks for sharing.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

[[no...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

I agree with Shannon.  My taper is going very well, but when I get stressed I tend to feel symptoms. In fact, even if I am very happy and get excited, the symptoms flare up. I am trying to stay out of stressful situations when I can.  It might be a good idea to just relax as much as you can for a while.

 

I hope that you feel better soon.

 

Anne

 

Yes any stimuli is a big factor in flare ups even things you enjoy and usually relax you will do it, what you really found interesting now suddenly becomes a ''flare up'' point, And as Anne pointed out even being happy  thats how messed up our CNS is what should give us joy now causes us pain while healing.

 

But do not fear it and allow it to take away what joy you may find in life don't let the Benzos win mentally. I get zapped all the time  doing what I need to do or  enjoy doing but only being physically unable to do it will stop me, not fear of it I refuse to be a victim of irrational fear, I accept that its all part of healing and I have to go through it to get out the other side laughing painlessly

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[en...]]

Doodle,

 

I also have a very sensitive system. I can notice those changes, too ie. switching filler ingredients in meds or supplements etc. I know it's not just a placebo because there have been times my medications have been changed without me even knowing, and I've experienced symptoms, only to find out the change later. So, I have no doubt a solid to liquid change will cause sensitive systems to notice it.

 

I wouldn't worry. I don't think you did anything wrong. I would just give your body time to adjust to the liquid. even if it takes a couple of weeks. and then you can start to taper again.

 

hugs to you and hang in there.

 

shannon

 

 

Not only can fillers effect sensitive individuals, the dye can be a culprit too.

[[...]]

Hi Anne,

 

Great to have a chemist around.  I'm a mechanical engineer and know enough chemistry to be dangerous.  I've studied some chemistry and am around chemists and material engineers, but I really don't have all that great a grasp of it so I am very glad you are here.

 

Here is a thread you might find interesting...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

A researcher named Jouyban published papers on benzo solubility and edited a handbook of drug solubility.  His data is in posts #37 and #46.  There is a full set of lorazepam (and other common benzos) data there from for ethanol/water mixtures from 0-100%.  Tailor made for us.  He reports lorazepam solubility in water as .05mg/ml peaking at about 18mg/ml in the mixture.  Weird thing is all these benzos peak before they hit 100% ethanol...around 85-90%.  I have scoured the internet looking for other data sources and he appears to be it.

 

I'm glad you mentioned temperature as not refrigerating the liquid might be another precaution for everyone here to be aware of.  In fact, using slightly warm water might also be a good idea, don't you think?

 

Were you serious about having a student measure dissolution time?  That would be fantastic!  One of the frustrations in all of this is not being able to confirm the information we find.

 

SG,

 

Thank you. I could tell from your post that you have some chemistry background.  Thank you for the links. I just downloaded both papers and will look them over this weekend.  This is great!!  Again, I did not research benzo solubility because the water works well for me. Now, I am interested!! You did a great job with the plot and solubility table!!  I will look through the databases to see if I can find any information on the solubility of Xanax in alcohol. Yes, it is interesting how the solubilities peak 85-90 % ethanol and decrease to 100% ethanol.  Something to think about. From the data it is obvious that some water is necessary for maximum solubility.

 

Yes, I might see if one of my students would be interested in doing a study or maybe I could do it myself if time permits.

 

Yes, I think advising people to not refrigerate their liquid is a good idea.  If they do refrigerate, they should let it sit at room temp for a while and then swirl it before measuring their dose. Using room temperature water would be much better than ice cold water.

 

Anne

 

It would be great if we could find more info on Xanax!  And, if you have time, also any other benzos and also verifying the results we already have on the common benzos.  I think the Jouyban source is reliable, but always good to have more than one source.

 

You can see by the plot why I prefer people use 150 proof.  80 proof really is cutting things close, but it seems to work and it has become the BB "standard" so I have stopped beating that drum as it was like shoveling sand against the tide.  But I really wish 150 proof would catch on.

 

I'm glad you will be reading the papers.  Jouyban is also the editor of The Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals.  There is data in that handbook on ingestible benzo solvents other than alcohol as well.  It's kind of curious that he has nothing on Xanax (other than plain water) as Xanax is so commonly used.

 

I'd actually like to see people start using lukewarm water with the alcohol/water method.  Your mention of how much a difference temperature can make has reminded me how important it could be.

[[ga...]]

Hi Anne,

 

Great to have a chemist around.  I'm a mechanical engineer and know enough chemistry to be dangerous.  I've studied some chemistry and am around chemists and material engineers, but I really don't have all that great a grasp of it so I am very glad you are here.

 

Here is a thread you might find interesting...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

A researcher named Jouyban published papers on benzo solubility and edited a handbook of drug solubility.  His data is in posts #37 and #46.  There is a full set of lorazepam (and other common benzos) data there from for ethanol/water mixtures from 0-100%.  Tailor made for us.  He reports lorazepam solubility in water as .05mg/ml peaking at about 18mg/ml in the mixture.  Weird thing is all these benzos peak before they hit 100% ethanol...around 85-90%.  I have scoured the internet looking for other data sources and he appears to be it.

 

I'm glad you mentioned temperature as not refrigerating the liquid might be another precaution for everyone here to be aware of.  In fact, using slightly warm water might also be a good idea, don't you think?

 

Were you serious about having a student measure dissolution time?  That would be fantastic!  One of the frustrations in all of this is not being able to confirm the information we find.

 

SG,

 

Thank you. I could tell from your post that you have some chemistry background.  Thank you for the links. I just downloaded both papers and will look them over this weekend.  This is great!!  Again, I did not research benzo solubility because the water works well for me. Now, I am interested!! You did a great job with the plot and solubility table!!  I will look through the databases to see if I can find any information on the solubility of Xanax in alcohol. Yes, it is interesting how the solubilities peak 85-90 % ethanol and decrease to 100% ethanol.  Something to think about. From the data it is obvious that some water is necessary for maximum solubility.

 

Yes, I might see if one of my students would be interested in doing a study or maybe I could do it myself if time permits.

 

Yes, I think advising people to not refrigerate their liquid is a good idea.  If they do refrigerate, they should let it sit at room temp for a while and then swirl it before measuring their dose. Using room temperature water would be much better than ice cold water.

 

Anne

 

It would be great if we could find more info on Xanax!  And, if you have time, also any other benzos and also verifying the results we already have on the common benzos.  I think the Jouyban source is reliable, but always good to have more than one source.

 

You can see by the plot why I prefer people use 150 proof.  80 proof really is cutting things close, but it seems to work and it has become the BB "standard" so I have stopped beating that drum as it was like shoveling sand against the tide.  But I really wish 150 proof would catch on.

 

I'm glad you will be reading the papers.  Jouyban is also the editor of The Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals.  There is data in that handbook on ingestible benzo solvents other than alcohol as well.  It's kind of curious that he has nothing on Xanax (other than plain water) as Xanax is so commonly used.

 

I'd actually like to see people start using lukewarm water with the alcohol/water method.  Your mention of how much a difference temperature can make has reminded me how important it could be.

 

I wish there was a way to star certain posts so you can find them a re-read them. This would be one for me!

[[an...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

You could just keep a record of the reply numbers, by writing them down, for each of the posts you would like to read again. Other than that, I do not see a way to reference them.  Someone else might know how to do this.

 

 

[[We...]]

OK, fellow benzo warriors. Trying to sort this out. Is it really possible that cutting .002mg Xanax per day is too fast a taper?? Here's why I'm wondering…

 

I have developed agoraphobia this summer. I read that benzo use can actually cause that. I've been pushing the edges of it, trying to go out into anxiety-producing places in spite of how I feel. When I push too hard, I have an anxiety wave (as in paralyzed and nonfunctioning) that lasts for hours, especially if I hit a ptsd trigger along the way.

 

What I can't sort out is whether these walls I keep hitting are from tapering too fast or from pushing on the edges of my ptsd/agoraphobia too hard. If the Xanax is actually making these symptoms worse, then I need to keep cutting away. But if the cutting is causing it, I need to slow down.

 

My son has taken off of work for a few days to help me settle back down and make sure I'm taking care of myself. My daughter is considering coming home from an internship she is doing this summer because of this. She was very worried when I talked to her this morning and wanted to get on a bus tomorrow. I told her to wait a few days while I try to work out a new strategy. I feel like the stakes are high because this is affecting my kids, and I need to make the right decision.

 

Right now I am holding for a few days and then plan to try .002 every other day. But when I do the math on that, I figure I will be dead of old age before I finish my taper! 

 

Anybody else run into a problem like this or just have a gut feeling about what's at the root of this? I'm open to all suggestions!

 

I've dealt with the same issue throughout my taper, Goodle (... )

When I'd go to the store , for example, and had to wait in line, I felt like I was going to pass out or something. It's the lights, the smells, the people. I felt so alien from everything and everyone.

Many members experience this. Kind of keep to themselves for a while till you have some window where thighs are more bearable.

When I was In a window, I'd be able to pull it off. But I wasn't comfortable around people, God forbid the doorbell rang , didn't answer the phone and didn't socialize  at all. No restaurants, etc.

You get the drift .

On good days I would be able to tolerate it and do groceries, but always glad when I was home. Just no desire to be around people and not feeling connected to people and things.

 

So, this got better as I went further in my taper. I think maybe you're just really sensitive right now to impressions and your senses can be hightened. After all, your CNS has been affected, so it makes sense to me that this is what's going on.

At the start of my taper it would freak me out ( causing more anxiety ) till I accepted that being by myself and here and there with some good friend,s worked for ME during this tapering period and that's the way it was going to be for a while, since I didn't want to put myself through it each time I did it anyway.

As you may know, I have been home for most of the time during the first half of my taper and right now I'm overseas, just like I did in November, by myself. Just to say : see? It gets better.

I go out for dinner again, I have friends over some days ( they know I can cancel last minute or just tell them it's too much now when they have been there for over and hour ) and I am doing all my own groceries again, no problem.

For me it was horror to run in to people at the store. But lately I find myself enjoying small talk again most times.

 

I hope that this helps. So you can see you're not alone in this, if you recognize it.

It went lots better as I got used to the rhythm of the taper. I'd say maybe get used to it a bit longer an things will settle. You'll also experience these ups and downs without freakingnout over them too much, since you will have gone through it a few times and know better times actually be around the corner. It could be real crap one day and Great the next. Try and go with the flow of it. And don't be too worried .

 

Hello Moodle,

 

Great post.  Thanks for sharing.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Yes. I agree! Great post, Moodle. It's so nice to hear these reminders and encouragements from those of you who have progressed along in your tapers.

 

hugs, shan

[[We...]]

Hi Buddies,

 

Happy Friday! Acceptance of symptoms during our microtapers can be so helpful. It's sooo human nature to 'freak out' when we get an sx. and our 'freaking out' usually make the sx 10 times worse than it was to begin with.

 

I always say this to my fiancé, my symptoms and sx's aren't usually the main problem, it's my REACTION to them.

 

It seems silly, but I do believe we all have an 'inner child' inside of us, and even verbally out loud comforting them when we experience a new sx, can go along way.

 

Microtapers will so minimize sx's so we are fortunate to be doing this method, but when we have them, we can just remind our little inner children, that they are actually a sign of healing! yay! and that we are okay!

 

I hope you all have a wonderful week-end, and can do something to bring you some peace and joy, even in some small way. Big hugs to you and all your brave little  inner children who are undertaking this amazing journey!

 

Love, Shannon

[[an...]]

 

It would be great if we could find more info on Xanax!  And, if you have time, also any other benzos and also verifying the results we already have on the common benzos.  I think the Jouyban source is reliable, but always good to have more than one source.

 

You can see by the plot why I prefer people use 150 proof.  80 proof really is cutting things close, but it seems to work and it has become the BB "standard" so I have stopped beating that drum as it was like shoveling sand against the tide.  But I really wish 150 proof would catch on.

 

I'm glad you will be reading the papers.  Jouyban is also the editor of The Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals.  There is data in that handbook on ingestible benzo solvents other than alcohol as well.  It's kind of curious that he has nothing on Xanax (other than plain water) as Xanax is so commonly used.

 

I'd actually like to see people start using lukewarm water with the alcohol/water method.  Your mention of how much a difference temperature can make has reminded me how important it could be.

 

Hi SG,

 

I will definitely read the papers over the weekend. This morning, I tried to find some information on Xanax solubility--I even looked at Jouyban's references as well as the papers where other researchers cited his papers.. So far no luck. I do think that Jouyban's work is credible. He has published loads of papers and other researchers are citing his work. I am going to email him later and ask if he has studied Xanax solubility. In one of the papers, by Jouyban, he reviewed several of the models that predict drug solubility in ethanol/water. Alprazolum was on the long list of drugs. There should be some data out there somewhere.  The trick is finding it. I am not able to access the handbook--the university library does not have it. Anyway, I better get back to work.  Enjoy the weekend.

Anne

[[mi...]]

Sharkey how are you feeling now and since 7/4?

[[Hi...]]

I'm trying to figure out the same thing. I'm dry cutting but like my pills weighing .900mg combined it's 3 pills at .300 each I shave .01 off each dose so I'm down to .840 how many mg of ativan is that if I take 6mg a day? It's 5 days into this cut and having a hard time cuz some valium i took last week and my methadone and liver but you guys don't want to hear about that here sorry I'm full of self pitty. But how do I convert that to my current dose so I know how many mg that is? I gotta get a tooth pulled today and they ganna give me madazelam again

[[sh...]]

Hi Buddies,

 

Happy Friday! Acceptance of symptoms during our microtapers can be so helpful. It's sooo human nature to 'freak out' when we get an sx. and our 'freaking out' usually make the sx 10 times worse than it was to begin with.

 

I always say this to my fiancé, my symptoms and sx's aren't usually the main problem, it's my REACTION to them.

 

It seems silly, but I do believe we all have an 'inner child' inside of us, and even verbally out loud comforting them when we experience a new sx, can go along way.

 

Microtapers will so minimize sx's so we are fortunate to be doing this method, but when we have them, we can just remind our little inner children, that they are actually a sign of healing! yay! and that we are okay!

 

I hope you all have a wonderful week-end, and can do something to bring you some peace and joy, even in some small way. Big hugs to you and all your brave little  inner children who are undertaking this amazing journey!

 

Love, Shannon

 

Great advice Shannon!  Thanks for sharing this

[[...]]

 

It would be great if we could find more info on Xanax!  And, if you have time, also any other benzos and also verifying the results we already have on the common benzos.  I think the Jouyban source is reliable, but always good to have more than one source.

 

You can see by the plot why I prefer people use 150 proof.  80 proof really is cutting things close, but it seems to work and it has become the BB "standard" so I have stopped beating that drum as it was like shoveling sand against the tide.  But I really wish 150 proof would catch on.

 

I'm glad you will be reading the papers.  Jouyban is also the editor of The Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals.  There is data in that handbook on ingestible benzo solvents other than alcohol as well.  It's kind of curious that he has nothing on Xanax (other than plain water) as Xanax is so commonly used.

 

I'd actually like to see people start using lukewarm water with the alcohol/water method.  Your mention of how much a difference temperature can make has reminded me how important it could be.

 

Hi SG,

 

I will definitely read the papers over the weekend. This morning, I tried to find some information on Xanax solubility--I even looked at Jouyban's references as well as the papers where other researchers cited his papers.. So far no luck. I do think that Jouyban's work is credible. He has published loads of papers and other researchers are citing his work. I am going to email him later and ask if he has studied Xanax solubility. In one of the papers, by Jouyban, he reviewed several of the models that predict drug solubility in ethanol/water. Alprazolum was on the long list of drugs. There should be some data out there somewhere.  The trick is finding it. I am not able to access the handbook--the university library does not have it. Anyway, I better get back to work.  Enjoy the weekend.

Anne

 

Cool.  Let me know what you find out.

[[sh...]]

I'm trying to figure out the same thing. I'm dry cutting but like my pills weighing .900mg combined it's 3 pills at .300 each I shave .01 off each dose so I'm down to .840 how many mg of ativan is that if I take 6mg a day? It's 5 days into this cut and having a hard time cuz some valium i took last week and my methadone and liver but you guys don't want to hear about that here sorry I'm full of self pitty. But how do I convert that to my current dose so I know how many mg that is? I gotta get a tooth pulled today and they ganna give me madazelam again

 

To calculate your dose you have to figure out the % of the dose.  So for example:

 

.9g = 6mg A

 

So you have to figure out what % .84g is out of .9g

 

.84/.9 = 93.3%

 

So 93.3% of 6mg = 5.6mg