Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[sh...]]

I am water titrating temazepam capsules.  I started on 7/3/2015.  I have notice that I have a sore throat.  I was wondering is that way they put the Temazepam powder in the capsule?  Is it unsafe to shallow the powder without the capsule even if it is  titrated in water?  Has anyone else experienced this while water  titrating Teamzepam?  I am really doing well with this method and I do not want to go back trying to measure the powder.

 

I responded to your last post also.  FluterByee experienced the same thing with the sore throat.  Maybe she found a solution.  She is not using temazepam though.

[[ga...]]

And thank you for your reply, more encouragement. I didn't mention something but it might encourage others to not give up in finding a proscriber. After being dropped by two doctors last September who just did not want to become involved because it is a "controlled substance"."Doctors are in jail " said one. (okay ,yes but for selling narcotics 'scripts, not proscribing benzos to HELP a person be free of them). So after many phone calls I got a reference for a walk-in clinic Dr. called him and said yes he'll try and help me. But after nine months and me running out early twice, he expressed  frustration and said "you've got to see a phyciatrist". Well the one who took my insurance and was still an hours drive away basically threw me out of the office. She said "you are a drug addict , this is drug seeking behaviour, you should go to de-tox". So I called my regular doctor, and left a message that I was coming in to tell him about the phyciatrist, I have not run out of pills and would not be asking for a script at that time . I told him what happened, showed him the pill-cutter etc. and he surprised me by saying he would continue to help me, even insisting on writting a script so I don't need to go back for at least five or so weeks.  The moral of this story  is to encourage everyone who wants to taper their benzo and stop taking them for good is to keep trying on finding that doctor.

 

Thanks, Miller, and I agree. I took me awhile to find a helpful doctor, but I finally did. Never give up!

[[do...]]

I just have too say I love this Moodle and Doodle thing we have on this thread. Thinking I should change my ID to Noodle!

 

Ha-ha!  Noodle sounds good!

[[We...]]

OK, fellow benzo warriors. Trying to sort this out. Is it really possible that cutting .002mg Xanax per day is too fast a taper?? Here's why I'm wondering…

 

I have developed agoraphobia this summer. I read that benzo use can actually cause that. I've been pushing the edges of it, trying to go out into anxiety-producing places in spite of how I feel. When I push too hard, I have an anxiety wave (as in paralyzed and nonfunctioning) that lasts for hours, especially if I hit a ptsd trigger along the way.

 

What I can't sort out is whether these walls I keep hitting are from tapering too fast or from pushing on the edges of my ptsd/agoraphobia too hard. If the Xanax is actually making these symptoms worse, then I need to keep cutting away. But if the cutting is causing it, I need to slow down.

 

My son has taken off of work for a few days to help me settle back down and make sure I'm taking care of myself. My daughter is considering coming home from an internship she is doing this summer because of this. She was very worried when I talked to her this morning and wanted to get on a bus tomorrow. I told her to wait a few days while I try to work out a new strategy. I feel like the stakes are high because this is affecting my kids, and I need to make the right decision.

 

Right now I am holding for a few days and then plan to try .002 every other day. But when I do the math on that, I figure I will be dead of old age before I finish my taper! 

 

Anybody else run into a problem like this or just have a gut feeling about what's at the root of this? I'm open to all suggestions!

 

I've dealt with the same issue throughout my taper, Goodle (... )

When I'd go to the store , for example, and had to wait in line, I felt like I was going to pass out or something. It's the lights, the smells, the people. I felt so alien from everything and everyone.

Many members experience this. Kind of keep to themselves for a while till you have some window where thighs are more bearable.

When I was In a window, I'd be able to pull it off. But I wasn't comfortable around people, God forbid the doorbell rang , didn't answer the phone and didn't socialize  at all. No restaurants, etc.

You get the drift .

On good days I would be able to tolerate it and do groceries, but always glad when I was home. Just no desire to be around people and not feeling connected to people and things.

 

So, this got better as I went further in my taper. I think maybe you're just really sensitive right now to impressions and your senses can be hightened. After all, your CNS has been affected, so it makes sense to me that this is what's going on.

At the start of my taper it would freak me out ( causing more anxiety ) till I accepted that being by myself and here and there with some good friend,s worked for ME during this tapering period and that's the way it was going to be for a while, since I didn't want to put myself through it each time I did it anyway.

As you may know, I have been home for most of the time during the first half of my taper and right now I'm overseas, just like I did in November, by myself. Just to say : see? It gets better.

I go out for dinner again, I have friends over some days ( they know I can cancel last minute or just tell them it's too much now when they have been there for over and hour ) and I am doing all my own groceries again, no problem.

For me it was horror to run in to people at the store. But lately I find myself enjoying small talk again most times.

 

I hope that this helps. So you can see you're not alone in this, if you recognize it.

It went lots better as I got used to the rhythm of the taper. I'd say maybe get used to it a bit longer an things will settle. You'll also experience these ups and downs without freakingnout over them too much, since you will have gone through it a few times and know better times actually be around the corner. It could be real crap one day and Great the next. Try and go with the flow of it. And don't be too worried .

 

Thanks, Moodle. My therapist has encouraged me to keep pushing the edges of my agoraphobia, but I'm thinking it's doing more harm than good. Maybe I'm just pushing the edges too hard, not cutting too fast. I hope so because I want to keep going with my taper.

 

I'm glad to hear how much better you are now! Wonderful!

 

 

Gardener,

 

You know what I would do for awhile? I would put the "pushing" on hold for a bit--let's say a month to 6 weeks. That way, you could really know how your body is adjusting to the taper. Then at least you would know what was causing the extra stressfulness on you-the taper or the pushing your agoraphobia boundaries. Once you realized what was indeed happening, and how your body was truly responding to the taper, you could choose to start again pushing your boundaries or not.

 

We do need to be really gentle with ourselves during tapers. I agree that your therapist is giving your good advice about pushing your boundaries, and I'm betting as you come along with your taper, you will be able to do this, but maybe putting it on hold, to see how you REALLY feel on your taper schedule is a good idea--just for now. That's just a thought. I'll be here to support you either way.

 

take care,

Shannon

[[an...]]

Hi Jeff,

 

As Anne said, just divide your mgs by the total liquid they are in.

 

BUT...please don't use only 20ml!!  Water only dissolves about .03mg K per ml so 20ml will only hold .6mg and the rest may want to come back out of solution and settle on the bottom.  When solubility is so low the amount of liquid matters.  I'd stick with 100ml or more.

 

Thanks, SG.  I had no idea about that. I'll definitely keep things at the higher amounts of water until the bitter end. I didn't plan on using such a small amount (20ml, for example); I just saw other posts where some of the math used smaller amounts of the liquid. I didn't understand why. I guess it all just depends on what people are doing and with what. Again, I pray like crazy that people are around to help me when I get to the lower doses. I'm looking at a pretty long time in the future.

 

Appreciate you!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, you are dissolving in vodka so the amount of water shouldn't effect your solubility, right SG?  BUT it will effect your measuring accuracy as I mentioned above.

 

Well, if there is NOT ENOUGH water I think the K could come back out of solution.  It's called "precipitation."  Basically liquids have a limit as to how much they can dissolve.  There is a ceiling and if you reach it there is no more room at the inn.  And when water dissolves K it can only hold about .03mg in each ml...not much, but enough if there is a lot of it.  The limit for 100ml would be 3mg K (~.03mg/ml).  10ml could only hold .3mg.

 

Here's how I think this method works.  The K is dissolved in the few mls of alcohol no problem.  Then all that water is added and it can also dissolve K, but only a little (~.03mg/ml).  But that is okay as the K is already dissolved in the alcohol and the alcohol and water mix extremely well (in fact the alcohol is really already an alcohol/water mixture).  As the two liquids mix it quickly becomes basically water.  2ml of 80 proof only contains .8ml ethanol and the rest is mostly water so the final mixture is about 99.2% water and .8% ethanol.  That's water!!  And it has the properties of water, including solubility.

 

The water would have been able to dissolve the K by itself, but it just might take a long time (and probably does based on the failure rates of that method).  Using alcohol is a neat trick to get it into solution in water quickly and effectively.  Anyway, that's what I think happens.

 

Hi SG,

 

I have not done much research on the solubility of Lorazepam.  Back in 2007, for my first taper, I read that the solubility in water was much less than 0.1g/L. We consider a value like that to mean insoluble. I remember finding a paper (or I could have found it in a handbook) that stated the solubility of lorazepam in 95% ethanol was greater, but I do not remember the value now.  I decided to use water for the taper (taper was very successful).  Regardless of the reported solubility, I assumed the lorazepam was insoluble so I made sure to agitate the mixture and then quickly measure out my doses.  I also add water to the container and drink the rinse water.

 

I have not looked up the solubility of lorazepam in ethanol recently so I cannot discuss this in terms of quantity, but if a certain amount is indeed soluble in ethanol, and water is added to the solution, it is possible that some of the medication can precipitate out--different factors like temperature, etc. will affect the solubility.  If using 2 mL of 95 % (v/v) ethanol solution and then diluting that to 100 mL we end up with a 1.9% (v/v) ethanol solution--the solubility of the drug is lowered.  Yes, you are right, it is more easily dissolved in the water since it has already been dissolved by the ethanol.

 

The Lorazepam molecule is fairly large and only somewhat polar which is why so little of it dissolves in water--less than 0.1 g/L.  As you said, it is true that it could take a long time to dissolve (as long as you are not trying to dissolve more than the given solubility). Mixing would be very important-for how long I do not know. It could be a few minutes or several hours or a day or more.  Temperature will also affect the solubility as well as a host of other things. For example, I was instructing my students on how to make an aqueous solution with 1,10-phenanthroline (this is used to detect iron in water).  It is considered a slightly soluble compound.  Anyway, the students were told to dissolve 0.1 g of the substance into 100 mL of water.  The solubility is about 3 g/L so they thought there would be no problem.  Well the substance was not dissolving and of course the students were perplexed. I told them to stir.  They did for an hour or so with no results.  Finally I told them to add some heat while stirring.  After another hour they had a solution--all of the substance dissolved. Once the solution cooled down, the substance stayed in solution. The point is, it took a while to get the slightly soluble substance into solution.

Unfortunately, we cannot do a visual inspection with the pills because of the insoluble fillers. Yes, it would be interesting to run a series of tests with a standard to determine how long it would take to dissolve. Could be a good project for one of my students this coming fall semester.

 

I think that, just to be cautious, one should swirl the liquid before measuring out a dose regardless of whether they use alcohol or just plain old H₂O. Also adding a bit of water to the container and drinking the rinse is a good idea. Again, the temperature of the water can make a difference in time it takes for the drug to dissolve.

 

I am sorry this sounds like one of my chemistry lectures. I probably got a bit carried away here. My main point is, this works regardless of the other variables that can affect the solubility.  Keep it simple. Mix, measure, drink, and rinse.  It has worked for me in the past and is working very well for me now.  SG, you are right that the couple of mL of alcohol helps speed up the process.

 

Anne

[[do...]]

Hello MT Buddies,

 

Just a little update:  I am on day 3 of my switch to liquid at my normal dose.  Today I appear to be adjusting to the change better.  Just had a bit of irritability and anxiety but I am going to have to find a better way to deal with it because I really want to be successful in my taper.  I want the old me back.

 

Welcome to all the newbies.  I am a newbie too.

 

Thank you all for your continued info and support.  I could not do this without you.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Hey Doodle!

I'm so glad to read that.

During my taper I had lots of anxiety and irritability . With acceptance of things just being like that for a while ( which didn't come in a day ) , things got better and I agree it's important we find other ways to deal with that. Which isn't always easy, since most of this , for me, was chemically induced.

I have not been an angry person at all before this journey but boy.... I had some rages on this junk.

 

What helped me much was guided meditations I found on YouTube. Bellaruth Naperstek has some nice calming guided imagery ones .

Some people are also greatly helped with Tapping.

Maybe these are things that'll work for you.

 

I hear you on wanting the old you back. I don't think I'll ever be the same , and I don't think I could be. But I find myself back little by little and in ways I feel like a better person because of it.

So much has happened , I'll never take day to day things for granted anymore. 

 

Hey Moodle and Doodle! Glad to hear things are going OK for both of you. Thanks for the guided meditation suggestion. I'm always on the lookout for those. I am right with you both on really missing the old me. I think that's the hardest part of this. For my kids, too. 

But, there are also parts of the old me that I and they hope to never get back! 

 

Hey Gardener,

 

I agree.  There are parts of the old  me that I do not want back too.

 

I hope that you are doing well in your taper.

 

I sort of feel like a mad scientist measuring and mixing everything.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

 

Hey Doodle and Gardener,

 

Bellaruth Naperstek has some very helpful and relaxing guided imagery meditations. You can just google for her you tubes , there are so many.

Here are two that I like to use myself from some other people.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLUVKqY_qqM&sns=em

 

 

Moo,

 

Thanks so much.  I will definitely check them out.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog

[[an...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

I agree with Shannon.  My taper is going very well, but when I get stressed I tend to feel symptoms. In fact, even if I am very happy and get excited, the symptoms flare up. I am trying to stay out of stressful situations when I can.  It might be a good idea to just relax as much as you can for a while.

 

I hope that you feel better soon.

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

I just have too say I love this Moodle and Doodle thing we have on this thread. Thinking I should change my ID to Noodle!

 

Ha-ha!  Noodle sounds good!

 

Moodle says Goodle. Doodle says Noodle. Decisions, decisions…

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener,

 

You know what I would do for awhile? I would put the "pushing" on hold for a bit--let's say a month to 6 weeks. That way, you could really know how your body is adjusting to the taper. Then at least you would know what was causing the extra stressfulness on you-the taper or the pushing your agoraphobia boundaries. Once you realized what was indeed happening, and how your body was truly responding to the taper, you could choose to start again pushing your boundaries or not.

 

We do need to be really gentle with ourselves during tapers. I agree that your therapist is giving your good advice about pushing your boundaries, and I'm betting as you come along with your taper, you will be able to do this, but maybe putting it on hold, to see how you REALLY feel on your taper schedule is a good idea--just for now. That's just a thought. I'll be here to support you either way.

 

take care,

Shannon

 

Thanks, Shannon. You make some very good points. I am going to see T on Monday and ask if she has any other suggestions for coping with the agoraphobia so it doesn't get worse. Really, cutting .002mg/day should be doable!

[[...]]

Hi SG,

 

I have not done much research on the solubility of Lorazepam.  Back in 2007, for my first taper, I read that the solubility in water was much less than 0.1g/L. We consider a value like that to mean insoluble. I remember finding a paper (or I could have found it in a handbook) that stated the solubility of lorazepam in 95% ethanol was greater, but I do not remember the value now.  I decided to use water for the taper (taper was very successful).  Regardless of the reported solubility, I assumed the lorazepam was insoluble so I made sure to agitate the mixture and then quickly measure out my doses.  I also add water to the container and drink the rinse water.

 

I have not looked up the solubility of lorazepam in ethanol recently so I cannot discuss this in terms of quantity, but if a certain amount is indeed soluble in ethanol, and water is added to the solution, it is possible that some of the medication can precipitate out--different factors like temperature, etc. will affect the solubility.  If using 2 mL of 95 % (v/v) ethanol solution and then diluting that to 100 mL we end up with a 1.9% (v/v) ethanol solution--the solubility of the drug is lowered.  Yes, you are right, it is more easily dissolved in the water since it has already been dissolved by the ethanol.

 

The Lorazepam molecule is fairly large and only somewhat polar which is why so little of it dissolves in water--less than 0.1 g/L.  As you said, it is true that it could take a long time to dissolve (as long as you are not trying to dissolve more than the given solubility). Mixing would be very important-for how long I do not know. It could be a few minutes or several hours or a day or more.  Temperature will also affect the solubility as well as a host of other things. For example, I was instructing my students on how to make an aqueous solution with 1,10-phenanthroline (this is used to detect iron in water).  It is considered a slightly soluble compound.  Anyway, the students were told to dissolve 0.1 g of the substance into 100 mL of water.  The solubility is about 3 g/L so they thought there would be no problem.  Well the substance was not dissolving and of course the students were perplexed. I told them to stir.  They did for an hour or so with no results.  Finally I told them to add some heat while stirring.  After another hour they had a solution--all of the substance dissolved. Once the solution cooled down, the substance stayed in solution. The point is, it took a while to get the slightly soluble substance into solution.

Unfortunately, we cannot do a visual inspection with the pills because of the insoluble fillers. Yes, it would be interesting to run a series of tests with a standard to determine how long it would take to dissolve. Could be a good project for one of my students this coming fall semester.

 

I think that, just to be cautious, one should swirl the liquid before measuring out a dose regardless of whether they use alcohol or just plain old H₂O. Also adding a bit of water to the container and drinking the rinse is a good idea. Again, the temperature of the water can make a difference in time it takes for the drug to dissolve.

 

I am sorry this sounds like one of my chemistry lectures. I probably got a bit carried away here. My main point is, this works regardless of the other variables that can affect the solubility.  Keep it simple. Mix, measure, drink, and rinse.  It has worked for me in the past and is working very well for me now.  SG, you are right that the couple of mL of alcohol helps speed up the process.

 

Anne

 

Hi Anne,

 

Great to have a chemist around.  I'm a mechanical engineer and know enough chemistry to be dangerous.  I've studied some chemistry and am around chemists and material engineers, but I really don't have all that great a grasp of it so I am very glad you are here.

 

Here is a thread you might find interesting...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

A researcher named Jouyban published papers on benzo solubility and edited a handbook of drug solubility.  His data is in posts #37 and #46.  There is a full set of lorazepam (and other common benzos) data there from for ethanol/water mixtures from 0-100%.  Tailor made for us.  He reports lorazepam solubility in water as .05mg/ml peaking at about 18mg/ml in the mixture.  Weird thing is all these benzos peak before they hit 100% ethanol...around 85-90%.  I have scoured the internet looking for other data sources and he appears to be it.

 

I'm glad you mentioned temperature as not refrigerating the liquid might be another precaution for everyone here to be aware of.  In fact, using slightly warm water might also be a good idea, don't you think?

 

Were you serious about having a student measure dissolution time?  That would be fantastic!  One of the frustrations in all of this is not being able to confirm the information we find.

[[ga...]]

 

I am sorry this sounds like one of my chemistry lectures. I probably got a bit carried away here. My main point is, this works regardless of the other variables that can affect the solubility.  Keep it simple. Mix, measure, drink, and rinse.  It has worked for me in the past and is working very well for me now.  SG, you are right that the couple of mL of alcohol helps speed up the process.

 

Anne

 

Don't be sorry! This is all fascinating, even if I can't understand it all. I like to hear the reasoning behind these things. Helps me to be less paranoid. 

[[ga...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

I agree with Shannon.  My taper is going very well, but when I get stressed I tend to feel symptoms. In fact, even if I am very happy and get excited, the symptoms flare up. I am trying to stay out of stressful situations when I can.  It might be a good idea to just relax as much as you can for a while.

 

I hope that you feel better soon.

 

Anne

 

Me, too!! Weird, huh?

[[Ul...]]

Hi Jeff,

 

As Anne said, just divide your mgs by the total liquid they are in.

 

BUT...please don't use only 20ml!!  Water only dissolves about .03mg K per ml so 20ml will only hold .6mg and the rest may want to come back out of solution and settle on the bottom.  When solubility is so low the amount of liquid matters.  I'd stick with 100ml or more.

 

Thanks, SG.  I had no idea about that. I'll definitely keep things at the higher amounts of water until the bitter end. I didn't plan on using such a small amount (20ml, for example); I just saw other posts where some of the math used smaller amounts of the liquid. I didn't understand why. I guess it all just depends on what people are doing and with what. Again, I pray like crazy that people are around to help me when I get to the lower doses. I'm looking at a pretty long time in the future.

 

Appreciate you!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, you are dissolving in vodka so the amount of water shouldn't effect your solubility, right SG?  BUT it will effect your measuring accuracy as I mentioned above.

 

Well, if there is NOT ENOUGH water I think the K could come back out of solution.  It's called "precipitation."  Basically liquids have a limit as to how much they can dissolve.  There is a ceiling and if you reach it there is no more room at the inn.  And when water dissolves K it can only hold about .03mg in each ml...not much, but enough if there is a lot of it.  The limit for 100ml would be 3mg K (~.03mg/ml).  10ml could only hold .3mg.

 

Here's how I think this method works.  The K is dissolved in the few mls of alcohol no problem.  Then all that water is added and it can also dissolve K, but only a little (~.03mg/ml).  But that is okay as the K is already dissolved in the alcohol and the alcohol and water mix extremely well (in fact the alcohol is really already an alcohol/water mixture).  As the two liquids mix it quickly becomes basically water.  2ml of 80 proof only contains .8ml ethanol and the rest is mostly water so the final mixture is about 99.2% water and .8% ethanol.  That's water!!  And it has the properties of water, including solubility.

 

The water would have been able to dissolve the K by itself, but it just might take a long time (and probably does based on the failure rates of that method).  Using alcohol is a neat trick to get it into solution in water quickly and effectively.  Anyway, that's what I think happens.

 

That makes sense, SG (and Sharkey). As always, thank you!!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Hi Jeff,

 

As Anne said, just divide your mgs by the total liquid they are in.

 

BUT...please don't use only 20ml!!  Water only dissolves about .03mg K per ml so 20ml will only hold .6mg and the rest may want to come back out of solution and settle on the bottom.  When solubility is so low the amount of liquid matters.  I'd stick with 100ml or more.

 

Thanks, SG.  I had no idea about that. I'll definitely keep things at the higher amounts of water until the bitter end. I didn't plan on using such a small amount (20ml, for example); I just saw other posts where some of the math used smaller amounts of the liquid. I didn't understand why. I guess it all just depends on what people are doing and with what. Again, I pray like crazy that people are around to help me when I get to the lower doses. I'm looking at a pretty long time in the future.

 

Appreciate you!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, you are dissolving in vodka so the amount of water shouldn't effect your solubility, right SG?  BUT it will effect your measuring accuracy as I mentioned above.

 

Well, if there is NOT ENOUGH water I think the K could come back out of solution.  It's called "precipitation."  Basically liquids have a limit as to how much they can dissolve.  There is a ceiling and if you reach it there is no more room at the inn.  And when water dissolves K it can only hold about .03mg in each ml...not much, but enough if there is a lot of it.  The limit for 100ml would be 3mg K (~.03mg/ml).  10ml could only hold .3mg.

 

Here's how I think this method works.  The K is dissolved in the few mls of alcohol no problem.  Then all that water is added and it can also dissolve K, but only a little (~.03mg/ml).  But that is okay as the K is already dissolved in the alcohol and the alcohol and water mix extremely well (in fact the alcohol is really already an alcohol/water mixture).  As the two liquids mix it quickly becomes basically water.  2ml of 80 proof only contains .8ml ethanol and the rest is mostly water so the final mixture is about 99.2% water and .8% ethanol.  That's water!!  And it has the properties of water, including solubility.

 

The water would have been able to dissolve the K by itself, but it just might take a long time (and probably does based on the failure rates of that method).  Using alcohol is a neat trick to get it into solution in water quickly and effectively.  Anyway, that's what I think happens.

 

Now my brain is in knots!

 

 

At least you HAVE a brain     

[[ga...]]

Hi Jeff,

 

As Anne said, just divide your mgs by the total liquid they are in.

 

BUT...please don't use only 20ml!!  Water only dissolves about .03mg K per ml so 20ml will only hold .6mg and the rest may want to come back out of solution and settle on the bottom.  When solubility is so low the amount of liquid matters.  I'd stick with 100ml or more.

 

Thanks, SG.  I had no idea about that. I'll definitely keep things at the higher amounts of water until the bitter end. I didn't plan on using such a small amount (20ml, for example); I just saw other posts where some of the math used smaller amounts of the liquid. I didn't understand why. I guess it all just depends on what people are doing and with what. Again, I pray like crazy that people are around to help me when I get to the lower doses. I'm looking at a pretty long time in the future.

 

Appreciate you!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, you are dissolving in vodka so the amount of water shouldn't effect your solubility, right SG?  BUT it will effect your measuring accuracy as I mentioned above.

 

Well, if there is NOT ENOUGH water I think the K could come back out of solution.  It's called "precipitation."  Basically liquids have a limit as to how much they can dissolve.  There is a ceiling and if you reach it there is no more room at the inn.  And when water dissolves K it can only hold about .03mg in each ml...not much, but enough if there is a lot of it.  The limit for 100ml would be 3mg K (~.03mg/ml).  10ml could only hold .3mg.

 

Here's how I think this method works.  The K is dissolved in the few mls of alcohol no problem.  Then all that water is added and it can also dissolve K, but only a little (~.03mg/ml).  But that is okay as the K is already dissolved in the alcohol and the alcohol and water mix extremely well (in fact the alcohol is really already an alcohol/water mixture).  As the two liquids mix it quickly becomes basically water.  2ml of 80 proof only contains .8ml ethanol and the rest is mostly water so the final mixture is about 99.2% water and .8% ethanol.  That's water!!  And it has the properties of water, including solubility.

 

The water would have been able to dissolve the K by itself, but it just might take a long time (and probably does based on the failure rates of that method).  Using alcohol is a neat trick to get it into solution in water quickly and effectively.  Anyway, that's what I think happens.

 

Now my brain is in knots!

 

 

At least you HAVE a brain     

 

Dig deep, Ultra, dig deep. You'll find your brain in there somewhere! 

[[Ul...]]

OK, fellow benzo warriors. Trying to sort this out. Is it really possible that cutting .002mg Xanax per day is too fast a taper?? Here's why I'm wondering…

 

I have developed agoraphobia this summer. I read that benzo use can actually cause that. I've been pushing the edges of it, trying to go out into anxiety-producing places in spite of how I feel. When I push too hard, I have an anxiety wave (as in paralyzed and nonfunctioning) that lasts for hours, especially if I hit a ptsd trigger along the way.

 

What I can't sort out is whether these walls I keep hitting are from tapering too fast or from pushing on the edges of my ptsd/agoraphobia too hard. If the Xanax is actually making these symptoms worse, then I need to keep cutting away. But if the cutting is causing it, I need to slow down.

 

My son has taken off of work for a few days to help me settle back down and make sure I'm taking care of myself. My daughter is considering coming home from an internship she is doing this summer because of this. She was very worried when I talked to her this morning and wanted to get on a bus tomorrow. I told her to wait a few days while I try to work out a new strategy. I feel like the stakes are high because this is affecting my kids, and I need to make the right decision.

 

Right now I am holding for a few days and then plan to try .002 every other day. But when I do the math on that, I figure I will be dead of old age before I finish my taper! 

 

Anybody else run into a problem like this or just have a gut feeling about what's at the root of this? I'm open to all suggestions!

 

I've dealt with the same issue throughout my taper, Goodle (... )

When I'd go to the store , for example, and had to wait in line, I felt like I was going to pass out or something. It's the lights, the smells, the people. I felt so alien from everything and everyone.

Many members experience this. Kind of keep to themselves for a while till you have some window where thighs are more bearable.

When I was In a window, I'd be able to pull it off. But I wasn't comfortable around people, God forbid the doorbell rang , didn't answer the phone and didn't socialize  at all. No restaurants, etc.

You get the drift .

On good days I would be able to tolerate it and do groceries, but always glad when I was home. Just no desire to be around people and not feeling connected to people and things.

 

So, this got better as I went further in my taper. I think maybe you're just really sensitive right now to impressions and your senses can be hightened. After all, your CNS has been affected, so it makes sense to me that this is what's going on.

At the start of my taper it would freak me out ( causing more anxiety ) till I accepted that being by myself and here and there with some good friend,s worked for ME during this tapering period and that's the way it was going to be for a while, since I didn't want to put myself through it each time I did it anyway.

As you may know, I have been home for most of the time during the first half of my taper and right now I'm overseas, just like I did in November, by myself. Just to say : see? It gets better.

I go out for dinner again, I have friends over some days ( they know I can cancel last minute or just tell them it's too much now when they have been there for over and hour ) and I am doing all my own groceries again, no problem.

For me it was horror to run in to people at the store. But lately I find myself enjoying small talk again most times.

 

I hope that this helps. So you can see you're not alone in this, if you recognize it.

It went lots better as I got used to the rhythm of the taper. I'd say maybe get used to it a bit longer an things will settle. You'll also experience these ups and downs without freakingnout over them too much, since you will have gone through it a few times and know better times actually be around the corner. It could be real crap one day and Great the next. Try and go with the flow of it. And don't be too worried .

 

I think that's the kicker. Psychology wins, so try to take control of the psychology. For what it's worth...

[[Ul...]]

Hi Jeff,

 

As Anne said, just divide your mgs by the total liquid they are in.

 

BUT...please don't use only 20ml!!  Water only dissolves about .03mg K per ml so 20ml will only hold .6mg and the rest may want to come back out of solution and settle on the bottom.  When solubility is so low the amount of liquid matters.  I'd stick with 100ml or more.

 

Thanks, SG.  I had no idea about that. I'll definitely keep things at the higher amounts of water until the bitter end. I didn't plan on using such a small amount (20ml, for example); I just saw other posts where some of the math used smaller amounts of the liquid. I didn't understand why. I guess it all just depends on what people are doing and with what. Again, I pray like crazy that people are around to help me when I get to the lower doses. I'm looking at a pretty long time in the future.

 

Appreciate you!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, you are dissolving in vodka so the amount of water shouldn't effect your solubility, right SG?  BUT it will effect your measuring accuracy as I mentioned above.

 

Well, if there is NOT ENOUGH water I think the K could come back out of solution.  It's called "precipitation."  Basically liquids have a limit as to how much they can dissolve.  There is a ceiling and if you reach it there is no more room at the inn.  And when water dissolves K it can only hold about .03mg in each ml...not much, but enough if there is a lot of it.  The limit for 100ml would be 3mg K (~.03mg/ml).  10ml could only hold .3mg.

 

Here's how I think this method works.  The K is dissolved in the few mls of alcohol no problem.  Then all that water is added and it can also dissolve K, but only a little (~.03mg/ml).  But that is okay as the K is already dissolved in the alcohol and the alcohol and water mix extremely well (in fact the alcohol is really already an alcohol/water mixture).  As the two liquids mix it quickly becomes basically water.  2ml of 80 proof only contains .8ml ethanol and the rest is mostly water so the final mixture is about 99.2% water and .8% ethanol.  That's water!!  And it has the properties of water, including solubility.

 

The water would have been able to dissolve the K by itself, but it just might take a long time (and probably does based on the failure rates of that method).  Using alcohol is a neat trick to get it into solution in water quickly and effectively.  Anyway, that's what I think happens.

 

Now my brain is in knots!

 

 

At least you HAVE a brain     

 

Dig deep, Ultra, dig deep. You'll find your brain in there somewhere! 

 

Found it, Gardener!!  It was in the oil drain pan of my car. It's the size of a tick, but at least I found it

 

Hugs,

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

 

 

Found it, Gardener!!  It was in the oil drain pan of my car. It's the size of a tick, but at least I found it

 

Hugs,

 

Jeff

 

:thumbsup:

 

[[Ul...]]

Sharkey- Over the past month I have gotten down from 3 mg. Klonopin to 2mg by using my pill cutter. I have been at 2mg. taken once at night for one week now and feel pretty good actually better, I think a little clearer. It looks like you did not start your liquid taper until .25 if I read it right. Do you think a week is enough for my body to have fully adjusted to 2mg. I feel like it has. Do you think i should keep cutting and start the liquid at a lower dose. I have the syringes and learned all the techniques from you and Builder. My script is still 1mg pills so the pill cutter is really only accurate to split a 1mg into four pieces. 1/8 of 2 mg. is a little more than the 10% Ashton recommended reduction. I guess yes I feel like I can move a little faster now cutting and then find my way (slower) later with liquid. And what about trying to dissolve a whole 1mg. pill in milk to start to get used to it. I as of now plan on staying on 2mg for about one more week, then either cut dry or start liquid reduction. I'm feeling more confident now that I understand the methods and most of all, after almost losing my doctor I've really got him on board for as long as it takes as long as I show progress. I actually brought the pill cutter, scale (yet to use it) and the syringes to show him and explained BB to him. I walked out feeling really good about now really seeing this as something with an ending(the taper and Benzo-free). In closing I just want to say it is amazing to feel (because I am thinking a little clearer) better after reducing from 3 mg to 2 mg instead of some list of terrible side effects. I know alot of effort lies ahead but with you and BB I'm really now finally on my way.  Thank you, Chip

 

Yowza!! Miller, you went from 3mg of K to 2mg in ONE MONTH?!  Mercy! That seems like lightening speed. I'm obviously the VERY slow turtle in this bunch. You must have great...something. Man, congrats on the success!

[[Ul...]]

Hi BUDDIES!

 

I've missed this thread so much. My computer broke and I wasn't able to get another one until right now. I hope you are all well, and welcome to any members that may have joined while I was gone. I hope to read most of the messages so I can catch up on everyone's progress. I know we have a couple of people who will be done their benzos pretty soon--Sharky and Moodle, I think. And I want to celebrate with you all.

 

talk soon,

love shan/wecan

 

The queen is back!! We were worried, but so glad to see you back. Keep on keepin' on, Shannon!

 

Jeff

[[do...]]

I just have too say I love this Moodle and Doodle thing we have on this thread. Thinking I should change my ID to Noodle!

 

Ha-ha!  Noodle sounds good!

 

Moodle says Goodle. Doodle says Noodle. Decisions, decisions…

 

I agree with Moodle that Goodle sounds good, cuz, anyone can be a noodle but not everyone can be a goodle.

 

Doodle dog

[[Sh...]]

Hi MT Buddies,

 

Question?  Is is normal to feel some mild sx while switching from pills to the liquid? 

 

I am on day four and have a bit more tension in my head / jaw (like I had when a supplement triggered some WD sx's for a while in May / June.)

 

I am in the process of interviewing for a job and know that if I am hired it will be a bit stressful to start a new job in a new industry and the normal learning curve / prove yourself that goes with such a situation.  But that is life...I have a kiddo to take care of so there is no option other than to keep on pushing ahead and do everything I can to hold everything together.  This is a day at a time process, and sometimes it is hour to hour.

 

Hope everyone is doing well.  Sending positive thoughts to everyone. 

 

Hang tough!

Shalom,

Shaani

 

[[ga...]]

I just have too say I love this Moodle and Doodle thing we have on this thread. Thinking I should change my ID to Noodle!

 

Ha-ha!  Noodle sounds good!

 

Moodle says Goodle. Doodle says Noodle. Decisions, decisions…

 

I agree with Moodle that Goodle sounds good, cuz, anyone can be a noodle but not everyone can be a goodle.

 

Doodle dog

 

OK…I'm sure there's some logic in there somewhere. I think Jeff's newly-found brain can find it for me! 

 

Wait until Sharkey comes back and sees his thread. We are going to be so busted for going off topic! 

[[ga...]]

Hi MT Buddies,

 

Question?  Is is normal to feel some mild sx while switching from pills to the liquid? 

 

I am on day four and have a bit more tension in my head / jaw (like I had when a supplement triggered some WD sx's for a while in May / June.)

 

I am in the process of interviewing for a job and know that if I am hired it will be a bit stressful to start a new job in a new industry and the normal learning curve / prove yourself that goes with such a situation.  But that is life...I have a kiddo to take care of so there is no option other than to keep on pushing ahead and do everything I can to hold everything together.  This is a day at a time process, and sometimes it is hour to hour.

 

Hope everyone is doing well.  Sending positive thoughts to everyone. 

 

Hang tough!

Shalom,

Shaani

 

In a word, yes. I've heard many people say they had symptoms when they switched. I think Sir Sharkey says wait a week at your current dose after you switch to liquid just to make sure you give your body time to adjust. I sympathize with adding extra stress on top of your taper. I think you need to proceed slowly and with caution with your taper if you know you have unavoidable stressors coming up. You have the right attitude, one day, one hour at a time. 

 

Good luck with the interviewing. Hope you get the job if it's right for you! Let us know!

 

Gardener

[[do...]]

Hi BUDDIES!

 

I've missed this thread so much. My computer broke and I wasn't able to get another one until right now. I hope you are all well, and welcome to any members that may have joined while I was gone. I hope to read most of the messages so I can catch up on everyone's progress. I know we have a couple of people who will be done their benzos pretty soon--Sharky and Moodle, I think. And I want to celebrate with you all.

 

talk soon,

love shan/wecan

 

Hello Shannon,

 

So good to see you back.  Been thinking of you and hoping all is well.

 

doodle dog