Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Li...]]

Gardener,

 

Yes, it's 0.25 I took out the first night.

 

When I use my 1 ml syringe, I always get a big bubble in it so I pull up to 0.35 and flick the syringe till the bubble gets to the top then push up the plunger to .25 and that gets the bubble out...hope I'm doing that right. 

[[Go...]]

Hi, I'm not even sure if I'm posting in the right area, I've tried many over the past day

I crossed over from xanax to diaz, was already on 25 diaz, so I;m currently on 65 diaz.

How do you micro taper, what do I need to get, I've watched more Utube videos thanI care to admit, I don't do math

simple clear explanation is what I need

like what's the difference if I use 300ml of liquid as opposed to 350 ??

Is it too much to do 1mg a day?

 

I really need help with this, can someone help me with a taper plan

Thanks in advance

 

[[ga...]]

Gardener....gosh, thank you so much!

 

I've decided to test out the alcohol again..had people telling me that it works on Gaba (which I know) so was scared it would cause issues...no matter how little I drank.  So you are drinking like 9 mls of vodka per day then right?  since you dose 3 times per day. 

 

 

  I don't know the specifics of Gard's schedule, but you can set up a plan that will never require more than 1ml vodka (.4ml alcohol) per day.

 

Right now I'm dosing nearly all of 5mg (100ml) 3 times/day, so am consuming almost all of the 3ml of vodka 3 times/day.

 

I think Lib only takes 1 capsule/day so would be consuming a max of only 3ml with my method. And I believe SG said 2ml of vodka was enough for 5mg of L, and I boosted it up to 3ml to be safe. That was a long time ago waaaaay back in this thread. If I am remembering correctly, Lib could do 2ml of vodka plus 98ml of water = 100ml of solution.

 

I'm don't remember why she's doing 150ml of water. I defer to you on schedules and plans and measurements.

[[ga...]]

Gardener,

 

Yes, it's 0.25 I took out the first night.

 

When I use my 1 ml syringe, I always get a big bubble in it so I pull up to 0.35 and flick the syringe till the bubble gets to the top then push up the plunger to .25 and that gets the bubble out...hope I'm doing that right.

 

That sounds right. You are holding the syringe upright and tapping, and the bubble floats right to the top, and then you push to your mark which pushes the bubble out so you have all liquid.

 

I just wrote out my system on my p-log and included a link and info about oral syringes.  (Scroll down past the cats and look for the youtube link.)  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137858.40

 

Disclaimer to the thread: This is my Librium system. Someone taught me how to do it. I have been doing it for 2 years. Other people have different systems.

[[ga...]]

Hi, I'm not even sure if I'm posting in the right area, I've tried many over the past day

I crossed over from xanax to diaz, was already on 25 diaz, so I;m currently on 65 diaz.

How do you micro taper, what do I need to get, I've watched more Utube videos thanI care to admit, I don't do math

simple clear explanation is what I need

like what's the difference if I use 300ml of liquid as opposed to 350 ??

Is it too much to do 1mg a day?

 

I really need help with this, can someone help me with a taper plan

Thanks in advance

 

You are in the right place. Here or the liquid titration board will help with this.

 

First a question: Can you get your doctor to write a script for liquid diazepam where you are? If you can, that is by far the easiest place to start.

 

There are a lot of YouTube videos with wrong or confusing information. I used to watch them. I stopped. Builder will come along and help you with a taper plan. I am not a math person. He is.

 

I have never tapered from a tablet. My Librium comes as capsules that I empty. People who use tablets dissolve them in alcohol or propylene glycol. I'm not sure if they crush them or just let them soak until they dissolve. Builder or another tablet person can give you advice about this, too.

 

The basic process is the same. You dissolve your benzo in a solvent (such as PG or alcohol). Then you dilute it with water to make a solution that is easy to measure in very small amounts. Then you make your plan and follow it.

 

Now we wait for builder or a another math guru to come along.

 

Gard

 

P.S. I should add that some people dissolve in whole milk, but I have no experience with that.

[[Li...]]

Gardener...thanks for the link...very helpful to go to since I forget a lot.  Really appreciate and will help many.

 

Yes, I changed over from 100 mls of water to 150 mls because I thought that maybe I needed more water to dissolve the Librium.  Just paranoid thinking I guess. 

 

Is it too diluted? Should I go back to 100mls? 

[[bu...]]

 

like what's the difference if I use 300ml of liquid as opposed to 350 ??

 

 

The easiest way to plan, measure, and track your dosages is make a solution where .1mg = 1ml.  That pretty much eliminates any math.  To convert between mgs and mls, all you have to do is move the decimal.

[[ga...]]

Gardener...thanks for the link...very helpful to go to since I forget a lot.  Really appreciate and will help many.

 

Yes, I changed over from 100 mls of water to 150 mls because I thought that maybe I needed more water to dissolve the Librium.  Just paranoid thinking I guess. 

 

Is it too diluted? Should I go back to 100mls?

 

I was going with what builder and SG and Anne worked out way back when I switched over. I have found 100ml to be enough and an easy number to work with.

 

 

[[ga...]]

Goingforward, would you update your signature to state exactly what you are taking right now? Then if you need more specific directions about making a solution, somebody can help you.

[[ka...]]

Hey Ya GARD - thanks for reaching out!!  Always puts a smile on my face when I see you posting. You and Builder make a great team for the benefit of so many!! Great job you guys. 

[[de...]]

Today back up at Xanax 1.5 mg per day (divided into 4 doses), waiting for stabilization but still suffering (bad anxiety with suffocating feeling, lack appetite, little sleep, touch sensitivity/"OCD" symptoms). 

 

IF we were to do Valium substitution and daily microtapering, what would that look like, how would it go? 

 

As of now, open to pills plus liquid, vodka for liquid as long as can't taste alcohol after dilution. 

 

(And belated thanks for supportive replies to my previous posts, I'm all over the place right now, trying to deal with this and that and the other, when my mama suffers, I suffer too, and so on with this never-ending l'enfer ...)

[[bu...]]

Today back up at Xanax 1.5 mg per day (divided into 4 doses), waiting for stabilization but still suffering (bad anxiety with suffocating feeling, lack appetite, little sleep, touch sensitivity/"OCD" symptoms). 

 

IF we were to do Valium substitution and daily microtapering, what would that look like, how would it go? 

 

As of now, open to pills plus liquid, vodka for liquid as long as can't taste alcohol after dilution. 

 

(And belated thanks for supportive replies to my previous posts, I'm all over the place right now, trying to deal with this and that and the other, when my mama suffers, I suffer too, and so on with this never-ending l'enfer ...)

 

IMO, there really is NO  need to switch to V.  It's just one more challenge to deal with, and frankly, offers very little benefit.

 

If "tasting alcohol" is your only concern, there are dozens of ways to resolve that.

 

Once you create your liquid to given ratio (1mg=10ml or 1mg=100ml), once you pulled up your dose, you can do anything you want to with it.  You can mix it with a full, 8oz. glass of water, you can mix it in fruit juice or soft drink, you can flavor it with anything you wish, etc...

 

If you just do a 1mg=10ml solution, starting with 2ml vodka, the alcohol is already diluted 60% (only 40% alcohol), then add 8ml water, its now diluted down 92%  (You have .8ml alcohol in 10ml liquid)  Then flavor or dilute that anyway you choose.

 

Or you can just hold your nose when you take your dose! 

[[de...]]

Thanks, builder, but you meant NO NEED, right?

 

I was thinking about Valium because she's having such godawful anxiety showing up as touch sensitivity that looks like OCD, thinking that maybe if we can minimize interdose withdrawal that she wouldn't suffer as much, but then I'm concerned about how Valium might cause depression. 

[[ga...]]

Hi delta. I'm so sorry about your mom. I have a few thoughts.

 

Have you checked out the Long Hold Support group? http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=153201.0  Valley is now sort of the leader over there, but there are a lot of other helpful and supportive people there, too. It might be a good place for information and encouragement while holding.

 

I also agree with builder that a crossover might not be needed. I often wonder if I would have needed to cross if I had just held my Xanax until I stabilized. I had never heard of doing a long hold and thought I had to go forward, so I did, ultimately necessitating a crossover.

 

If you do eventually decide to cross, Dr. Ashton has charts for crossing to Valium, which was her preferred benzo for tapering. The link to her schedule is below. Many people now consider her cross and taper to be too fast. Also, there was no such thing as liquid titration back then. I think some of her decisions were based on the need to split pills. So, the chart will give you an idea, but it's not written stone.

 

https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s7

 

I did it much more slowly than this. Slow is good.

 

One thing I did at one point (which requires a very cooperative doctor) was cross part way to Librium (similar to Valium) and then taper my Xanax some more. I have seen other people do this partial cross, too. Crossovers are risky because some people have bad reactions to new meds. You know about the depression. When I lost my very cooperative doctor, I finished crossing over to all Librium and did find myself horribly depressed. 

 

I would say try a hold and see if it enables your mom to stabilize. If it does, try a super-slow DLMT straight from the Xanax. If it doesn't consider a partial crossover. What builder said about measuring the dose and then mixing it into juice should work fine as long as she drinks it all.

 

Gard

 

P.S. Just saw your post to builder and will add more.

[[ga...]]

Delta, I think a short hold may be needed right now. It would be good if your mom could be a little more stable before making any more changes. It looks like you just did an updose. I think it could take a few days to see the results of that. I think there are people on the Long Hold thread that have experience with updosing. You might try asking about it over there. Meanwhile, keep trying to get some calories into her. Maybe sipping on smoothies or soup? Not eating can raise anxiety.

[[bu...]]

Thanks, builder, but you meant NO NEED, right?

LOL, yes, I fixed it!

 

I was thinking about Valium because she's having such godawful anxiety showing up as touch sensitivity that looks like OCD, thinking that maybe if we can minimize interdose withdrawal that she wouldn't suffer as much, but then I'm concerned about how Valium might cause depression.

 

All benzos are depressants, so I doubt V would noticeably more depressing the the ativan.  But again, the potential issues with a crossover probably outweigh any benefit.

 

Using diluted liquid really solves the problem of multiple doses...its easy to measure out multiple very small doses with liquid.  And it really isn't necessary to keep the doses completely balanced anyway.

[[ga...]]

Thanks, builder, but you meant NO NEED, right?

LOL, yes, I fixed it!

 

I was thinking about Valium because she's having such godawful anxiety showing up as touch sensitivity that looks like OCD, thinking that maybe if we can minimize interdose withdrawal that she wouldn't suffer as much, but then I'm concerned about how Valium might cause depression.

 

All benzos are depressants, so I doubt V would noticeably more depressing the the ativan.  But again, the potential issues with a crossover probably outweigh any benefit.

 

Using diluted liquid really solves the problem of multiple doses...its easy to measure out multiple very small doses with liquid.  And it really isn't necessary to keep the doses completely balanced anyway.

 

Oh gosh, builder, I was sooooo much more depressed when I crossed to Librium from Xanax. But I agree that there is potential for all kinds of harm from crossing and you don't know what it might be. Ashton used crossing as a first resort. I would use it as a last resort. And then, all that said, the depression hell from the Librium was not as bad as the anxiety hell from the Xanax for me. The depression lessened as I got lower. The Xanax anxiety never did.

[[de...]]

Thanks again, builder, and I think you're referring to my other post about 4 equal doses or not, so thank you for that as well.  Exactly, about the potential issues with crossover, makes me wary, but then about the depression vs. anxiety thing (and my mom's on Xanax, not Ativan, though tried that also and found it even more awful, so lovely) ...

 

Like gardener said, the depression hell from Librium actually preferable to the anxiety hell from Xanax, this could be true for my mom (with Valium), because the Xanax anxiety doesn't seem to EVER let up!

[[bu...]]

 

 

Oh gosh, builder, I was sooooo much more depressed when I crossed to Librium from Xanax. But I agree that there is potential for all kinds of harm from crossing and you don't know what it might be. Ashton used crossing as a first resort. I would use it as a last resort. And then, all that said, the depression hell from the Librium was not as bad as the anxiety hell from the Xanax for me. The depression lessened as I got lower. The Xanax anxiety never did.

 

Interesting!  I just responded to another thread where someone thought they wanted to switch from Valium to librium because he  thought it would be less depressing. 

 

And I also told him all benzos are depressants, and it probably wouldn't help.

 

And I was also on ativan for a while.  I really never noticed any difference in terms of depression.

[[ga...]]

 

 

Oh gosh, builder, I was sooooo much more depressed when I crossed to Librium from Xanax. But I agree that there is potential for all kinds of harm from crossing and you don't know what it might be. Ashton used crossing as a first resort. I would use it as a last resort. And then, all that said, the depression hell from the Librium was not as bad as the anxiety hell from the Xanax for me. The depression lessened as I got lower. The Xanax anxiety never did.

 

Interesting!  I just responded to another thread where someone thought they wanted to switch from Valium to librium because he  thought it would be less depressing. 

 

And I also told him all benzos are depressants, and it probably wouldn't help.

 

And I was also on ativan for a while.  I really never noticed any difference in terms of depression.

 

Not sure why Librium would be less depressing than Valium given that they break down to almost the exact same active metabolites. For some reason detox places like Librium and promote it as the best option. I think that may help the Librium-is-better myths to get passed around. I only chose Librium because I had genetic testing show I was an ultra-fast metabolizer of Valium, and I had once taken one dose of Librium and not reacted badly to it. (I've had life-threatening reactions to some meds.)

 

I'll always agree to use caution when crossing. Some people find the cross to be a godsend and some people wish they never crossed.

[[ga...]]

Thanks again, builder, and I think you're referring to my other post about 4 equal doses or not, so thank you for that as well.  Exactly, about the potential issues with crossover, makes me wary, but then about the depression vs. anxiety thing (and my mom's on Xanax, not Ativan, though tried that also and found it even more awful, so lovely) ...

 

Like gardener said, the depression hell from Librium actually preferable to the anxiety hell from Xanax, this could be true for my mom (with Valium), because the Xanax anxiety doesn't seem to EVER let up!

 

The depression hell didn't let up either, not until I got lower on the Librium and then did a hold to stabilize. I don't know how I survived it except that being depressed can so fill your brain with mud that you can't do anything. Whichever route you choose, stick close to your mom. You will get through this. There are some amazing success stories on this forum from people who thought their life was over who are now healed and thriving. Every day your mom is one day closer to being there, too.

[[de...]]

"Whichever route you choose, stick close to your mom. You will get through this. There are some amazing success stories on this forum from people who thought their life was over who are now healed and thriving. Every day your mom is one day closer to being there, too."

 

THANK YOU FOR THAT, gardener, and things like that need to be said again and again, and once more.  I will stick close to her, just wish I could touch and hug her. 

 

A question, depression let up only when you got lower on the Librium, got that, so when you said the Xanax anxiety never lessened, was that because you never went lower on the Xanax (since you crossed over to Librium), or did you mean anxiety never let up even when you did go lower on Xanax?  I ask this, even though I know it's individual, could be drastically different for my mother with Valium if tried ... oh the desperation 

[[ga...]]

"Whichever route you choose, stick close to your mom. You will get through this. There are some amazing success stories on this forum from people who thought their life was over who are now healed and thriving. Every day your mom is one day closer to being there, too."

 

THANK YOU FOR THAT, gardener, and things like that need to be said again and again, and once more.  I will stick close to her, just wish I could touch and hug her. 

 

A question, depression let up only when you got lower on the Librium, got that, so when you said the Xanax anxiety never lessened, was that because you never went lower on the Xanax (since you crossed over to Librium), or did you mean anxiety never let up even when you did go lower on Xanax?  I ask this, even though I know it's individual, could be drastically different for my mother with Valium if tried ... oh the desperation 

 

I know it must be so hard to make decisions for another person and to wonder if you are right. I asked a million questions on here for myself and took forever to figure stuff out because I was so benzo damaged and was on my own. You can think clearly for your mother. She is so fortunate to have you. It will be trial and error and twists and turns as it is for all of us, but you will figure this out and get through it.

 

I think I had one window of no symptoms for one hour after my Xanax crash. I slowed down and dosed 6 times/day after the crash. That helped make the anxiety more tolerable, but, except for the one window, it never went away. If I knew then what I know now, I would have up-dosed and held after my crash. I did not. I only slowed down and dosed more frequently. That did help, but ultimately I could not keep dosing 6 times/day. And I only alternated between intolerable anxiety and tolerable anxiety that seemed intolerable because I could get no relief and had very poor coping skills. Others have been more successful.

 

Challis99 tapered all the way off of Xanax. You might want to look for her log.

 

Dr. Stuart Shipko wrote an ebook about how he tapered his patients off of Xanax, so it can be done. Here's Shipko's book: https://www.amazon.com/Xanax-Withdrawal-Stuart-Shipko-ebook/dp/B008H7XYNS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515279751&sr=8-1&keywords=xanax+withdrawal

 

If your mom can get stable from her updose then you might want to consider a hold and another attempt at a very slow Xanax taper. Some people even do a pattern of tapering and holding as a routine. I think begood does that successfully. She has a blog http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=141242.0 and is often on the Long Hold thread. She knows a lot and is always happy to help.

 

I think it takes a bit of time for an up-dose to work. I would give your mom lots of reassurance that this is temporary and wait a few days. That will also give you some time to gather info and decide what to do. Meanwhile, you might want to pop into begood's blog. There are a lot of helpful people who hang out there.

 

I'm back in school (yes, at my age) and don't get around on the forum the way I used to, so mostly I'm here. builder is here and all over the place. (I don't know how he doesn't get lost.) Another micro-tapering resource is Sharkey, who started this thread. (Look for the very first post.) He became a daddy so doesn't read on here much, but he does check his PM's for messages and has said anybody can PM him with questions about dissolving, schedules, measuring, and such.

 

One step at time. One day close to freedom.

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

Some thoughts on crossovers:

 

Crossing to diazepam was often recommended for 2 reasons:

 

1)  It was available in the smallest dose units-2mg.  2mg diazepam is approx .1mg K or X, and .2mg lorazepam.  So obviously, it was possible to make much smaller relative  cuts with diazepam tablets than with most other benzos.

 

2) It's long half-life minimizes or eliminates real concerns about interdose withdrawal.

 

But as liquid benzos have been developed, and we also have learned how to easily and reliable to create true liquid solutions from tablets, the "advantages" or diazepam are not really so important. 

 

Liquid allows you make dose reductions easily as small as hundredths (.01) of a mg, so tablet size really dooesn't matter.

 

And since we can measure out really small doses, ,we can easily dose multiple times per day if needed, and again reduce concerns about interdose withdrawal.

 

It may be that there are some other minor advantages to diazepam, but it's really unlikely there are any advantages that would outweigh the disruption created by trying to crossover.

[[de...]]

I knew I liked BB when I joined the forum, but now, I’m starting to love you guys. 

 

Thank you for the kind post, gardener.  I’m on my way to asking a million questions on here and taking forever to figure stuff out, even though I’ve read the Ashton Manual, even though I want relief for my mom right this minute, even though I’m supposed to be thinking clearly for my mom (don’t feel like I am, feel totally scattered  ). 

 

She’s at 1.5 mg Xanax today (had to updose once more), and we will wait/hold to see if she stabilizes (currently suffering lots still). 

 

You’re back in school!  Fantastic    And thank you for staying around here …

 

Thank you for that explanatory post, builder.  Very helpful, and yeah, I've been worried about how a crossover could potentially be disruptive.  It’s like trying to choose between awful and oh, this other awful.