Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

Trust me, delta, you are doing fine. This is information overload for everybody in the beginning. Add that care-taking is tiring and stressful, so of course you feel scatter-brained. But little by little you'll get it. Meanwhile, I do hope you are finding a way to take care of yourself, too.

 

Gard

 

[Guest [...]]

 

 

Oh gosh, builder, I was sooooo much more depressed when I crossed to Librium from Xanax. But I agree that there is potential for all kinds of harm from crossing and you don't know what it might be. Ashton used crossing as a first resort. I would use it as a last resort. And then, all that said, the depression hell from the Librium was not as bad as the anxiety hell from the Xanax for me. The depression lessened as I got lower. The Xanax anxiety never did.

 

Interesting!  I just responded to another thread where someone thought they wanted to switch from Valium to librium because he  thought it would be less depressing. 

 

And I also told him all benzos are depressants, and it probably wouldn't help.

 

And I was also on ativan for a while.  I really never noticed any difference in terms of depression.

 

 

Yep that was me Builder and I guess you are probably right. I know of a member who crossed from Ativan who was very ill on it. He crossed to Valium and his depression went and he completed a successful taper so that was going through my mind when I asked the question

[[ga...]]

 

 

Oh gosh, builder, I was sooooo much more depressed when I crossed to Librium from Xanax. But I agree that there is potential for all kinds of harm from crossing and you don't know what it might be. Ashton used crossing as a first resort. I would use it as a last resort. And then, all that said, the depression hell from the Librium was not as bad as the anxiety hell from the Xanax for me. The depression lessened as I got lower. The Xanax anxiety never did.

 

Interesting!  I just responded to another thread where someone thought they wanted to switch from Valium to librium because he  thought it would be less depressing. 

 

And I also told him all benzos are depressants, and it probably wouldn't help.

 

And I was also on ativan for a while.  I really never noticed any difference in terms of depression.

 

 

Yep that was me Builder and I guess you are probably right. I know of a member who crossed from Ativan who was suicidal on it. He crossed to Valium and his depression went and he completed a successful taper so that was going through my mind when I asked the question

 

Thanks for the explanation, Staz. Lots of people do cross successfully. I was one who was helped by my cross even though I had to get through a period of depression after it.

 

BTW, we're not supposed to talk about suicide in any way (ideation, past attempts, veiled references, etc.) on this forum. Technically, I should not even have said what I said to delta a few posts back. There are members who are triggered by even seeing the word, so the rule is there to protect them.

 

edit: reworded a phrase

[[Li...]]

Gardener,

 

Hi again.  I'm going to try dissolving my L in 2 mls of alcohol but last time I did it there was still a lot of fillers at the bottom of the jar.  Should I shake it up good so that the fillers are suspended as well?  Having all that powder at the bottom worries me.  I also worry that if I shake it all up that I may just pull fillers out mostly.  But I guess no need to worry if the med is evenly distributed.

 

Tell me if I'm right.  My head pain has come back so not thinking clearly. 

 

Thx again!

[[bu...]]

Gardener,

 

Hi again.  I'm going to try dissolving my L in 2 mls of alcohol but last time I did it there was still a lot of fillers at the bottom of the jar.  Should I shake it up good so that the fillers are suspended as well?  Having all that powder at the bottom worries me.  I also worry that if I shake it all up that I may just pull fillers out mostly.  But I guess no need to worry if the med is evenly distributed.

 

Tell me if I'm right.  My head pain has come back so not thinking clearly. 

 

Thx again!

 

And "filler" is the operative word.  Those insoluble residuals are NOT librium.  Don't worry about it, the active ingredient, librium,  IS dissolved.

[[ga...]]

Gardener,

 

Hi again.  I'm going to try dissolving my L in 2 mls of alcohol but last time I did it there was still a lot of fillers at the bottom of the jar.  Should I shake it up good so that the fillers are suspended as well?  Having all that powder at the bottom worries me.  I also worry that if I shake it all up that I may just pull fillers out mostly.  But I guess no need to worry if the med is evenly distributed.

 

Tell me if I'm right.  My head pain has come back so not thinking clearly. 

 

Thx again!

 

And "filler" is the operative word. Those insoluble residuals are NOT librium.  Don't worry about it, the active ingredient, librium,  IS dissolved.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I do shake it up to mix the vodka with the water, but I use amber jars so I can't see how much filler is suspended and how much is settled. Probably a good thing!

[[Li...]]

thanks to you both!  Gardener, yes, you don't want to see it...there is a lot at the bottom of my jar...all evenly distributed at the bottom.  Builder, thanks for the reassurance that it is just fillers.  I hope to leave you two alone soon....lol.

[[Ul...]]

Hi,Kasey!

 

Hi, Jeff!

 

[move]Geaux Tigers![/move]

 

 

Gard

 

Mmm-WAH!!! Keep rockin' the benzo world!! Soon it'll be a thing of your past. NEXT!!!

 

Many hugs,

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Actually, a majority of benzo users are able to withdraw with over a period of a few weeks, with only limited, if any sxs.  So for those folks, a method that does not really make sense probably works anyway.  And while its true that some folks "water titrate" off of benzo, why would you not choose a method that is scientific and logical?  Why would you not choose a procedure that gave you the best probability of a smooth, successful taper?

 

When a C&H taper became intolerable, I wanted a procedure that 1) would result in the minimum amount of discomfort, and 2) was logical and supported by basic scientific principles.  (I had tried [3 times] to water-taper and it was a disaster.  So a little research showed my why)

 

And of course, everyone can choose whatever method they want, but I really don't understand the resistance to using a liquid that we all know actually makes a true uniformly distributed solution.  It is no more difficult to dissolve a benzo in a solvent (milk, PG, vodka) and dilute with water than it is to drop it in water.  You need to make the same measurements, follow the same basic procedure, and the dosing procedure will be the same, no matter what liquid you use.

 

As I said, if you can stir milk and sugar in your beverage, you can make a proper liquid benzo.

 

Builder, are saying that most people only spend several weeks in a taper?? Fill me in on what I'm missing.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

 

 

Mmm-WAH!!! Keep rockin' the benzo world!! Soon it'll be a thing of your past. NEXT!!!

 

Many hugs,

 

Jeff

 

[[bu...]]

 

Builder, are saying that most people only spend several weeks in a taper?? Fill me in on what I'm missing.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Yes.  Most folks are able to discontinue benzos with only limited difficulties.  BBs are outliers.

[[ga...]]

 

Builder, are saying that most people only spend several weeks in a taper?? Fill me in on what I'm missing.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Yes.  Most folks are able to discontinue benzos with only limited difficulties.  BBs are outliers.

 

From what I've read so far, no one has done a study on this, but most people do taper off with minimal symptoms over the course of a few months.

 

I personally know one woman who tapered over the course of 6 months with no trouble. I also know a woman who attempted a taper of Xanax briefly, and, when she had severe symptoms, was told that proved the needed the drug. She believes this and says she will be on Xanax forever.

 

One article I read made a guess, estimating that perhaps 30% of benzo users have significant trouble withdrawing.

 

BIC, which seems to be one of the most reliable sources of benzodiazepine withdrawal information on the web, says that 1 in 6 are disabled by benzodiazepine withdrawal. https://www.benzoinfo.com/

[[Li...]]

I know some people too who got off benzos with no issues.  I C/T'd off my Librium years ago with no issues but no way I can do it now.  Been 19 years on this stuff.  I've never wanted to be off it...I can tell it will be very hard since i"m on it as a muscle relaxer.  I've never gone into tolerance with it...it's only ever saved my life.  The issue I'm having is finding a doc to prescribe it to me ( my other doc retired).  And also it's hard to find one to support a long taper off it.  Never thought I would be in this situation.  I'm sorry but my quality of life is more important to me  than the quantity now.  If I could do what I wanted to do I'd stay on my benzo till death due us part.  But getting off could kill me.  So sad when it's been a lifesaver for me.  As Vineet said, "Life is indeed tragic".

 

right now I'm having to start back on taking BioIdentical hormones since I have hormone levels of a dead woman.  Hopefully that will help my taper as so far I'm stuck on my full dose.  This means taking Progesterone....too much conflicting information everywhere on this topic so going to trust my doc on this.  Should have gotten off my benzo first. 

 

good luck to you all....you all are stronger than me!

[[bu...]]

 

 

From what I've read so far, no one has done a study on this, but most people do taper off with minimal symptoms over the course of a few months.

 

I personally know one woman who tapered over the course of 6 months with no trouble. I also know a woman who attempted a taper of Xanax briefly, and, when she had severe symptoms, was told that proved the needed the drug. She believes this and says she will be on Xanax forever.

 

One article I read made a guess, estimating that perhaps 30% of benzo users have significant trouble withdrawing.

 

BIC, which seems to be one of the most reliable sources of benzodiazepine withdrawal information on the web, says that 1 in 6 are disabled by benzodiazepine withdrawal. https://www.benzoinfo.com/

 

Excellent resource, Gard.  I haven't seen that one before.

 

With a few unusual exceptions, almost everyone who takes benzos originally had some emotional/mental/psychological disorder.  And since benzos only  resolve symptoms, its only logical that many folks still have unresolved, untreated disorders.  I know several people who take psych med for existing conditions,  that allows them to function, and it all likliehood, they will need them for the rest of their lives.  My pdoc predicted I would be on meds for the rest of my life...fortunately she was wrong.

 

There actually is a significant body of evidence that suggests we do NOT become tolerant to the anxiolytic effect of benzos, and that they can be taken as long term therapy for GAD.  That definitely wasn't true for me, however.

[[ga...]]

 

 

From what I've read so far, no one has done a study on this, but most people do taper off with minimal symptoms over the course of a few months.

 

I personally know one woman who tapered over the course of 6 months with no trouble. I also know a woman who attempted a taper of Xanax briefly, and, when she had severe symptoms, was told that proved the needed the drug. She believes this and says she will be on Xanax forever.

 

One article I read made a guess, estimating that perhaps 30% of benzo users have significant trouble withdrawing.

 

BIC, which seems to be one of the most reliable sources of benzodiazepine withdrawal information on the web, says that 1 in 6 are disabled by benzodiazepine withdrawal. https://www.benzoinfo.com/

 

Excellent resource, Gard.  I haven't seen that one before.

 

 

 

BIC is somewhat new on the scene. I'm very impressed with what I've seen them do so far.

 

[[Su...]]

thanks for that resource Gard...

And for being here while you are so busy in your life!

:smitten:

SS

[[bb...]]

I have a question. I have been doing 3% every 2 weeks, but soon 3% won't register on my scale. I am presently at .072 g. AM and .112 g. pm. = .42 mgs.  I might have one more cut that is a true 3%. What do I do next? I don't want to do liquid. The percentages are going to get larger if I stick to reducing 1% and 2% in the am or pm. I'm at a loss. Any help that anyone can give is much appreciated! I am very sensitive to cuts as I believe I am kindled from multiple withdrawals from K. It hasn't been hard until this time. Do I cut .001 and get into a c/h pattern? I don't know how many days to cut and how many days to hold. Someone please help!

[[ga...]]

I am stumped by this myself, bballmom, but I found this idea from baddove.

 

I have 2 scales, it was taking hours to get my cut. I quit using them, they were so inconsistent, and constantly needed recalibration. I use a razer blade now and shave, and think of my cuts as "3 shaves" or whatever.

 

Just an option to think about.

 

Being a liquid daily micro-tapering person, I'm afraid I don't have much else to add.

[[ga...]]

thanks for that resource Gard...

And for being here while you are so busy in your life!

:smitten:

SS

 

Hi, SS! Hope all is going well with you! 

[[Ul...]]

 

Builder, are saying that most people only spend several weeks in a taper?? Fill me in on what I'm missing.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Yes.  Most folks are able to discontinue benzos with only limited difficulties.  BBs are outliers.

 

From what I've read so far, no one has done a study on this, but most people do taper off with minimal symptoms over the course of a few months.

 

I personally know one woman who tapered over the course of 6 months with no trouble. I also know a woman who attempted a taper of Xanax briefly, and, when she had severe symptoms, was told that proved the needed the drug. She believes this and says she will be on Xanax forever.

 

One article I read made a guess, estimating that perhaps 30% of benzo users have significant trouble withdrawing.

 

BIC, which seems to be one of the most reliable sources of benzodiazepine withdrawal information on the web, says that 1 in 6 are disabled by benzodiazepine withdrawal. https://www.benzoinfo.com/

 

I'm surprised! I read something in an article a few weeks ago that said 70-80% of people that have been on them for 6 months or longer have a lot of difficulty getting off the things. I'm approaching year 24, so I guess I don't fit that mold. This is a bitch of an experience!! Onwards we all go...

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

[[Su...]]

 

Builder, are saying that most people only spend several weeks in a taper?? Fill me in on what I'm missing.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Yes.  Most folks are able to discontinue benzos with only limited difficulties.  BBs are outliers.

 

From what I've read so far, no one has done a study on this, but most people do taper off with minimal symptoms over the course of a few months.

 

I personally know one woman who tapered over the course of 6 months with no trouble. I also know a woman who attempted a taper of Xanax briefly, and, when she had severe symptoms, was told that proved the needed the drug. She believes this and says she will be on Xanax forever.

 

One article I read made a guess, estimating that perhaps 30% of benzo users have significant trouble withdrawing.

 

BIC, which seems to be one of the most reliable sources of benzodiazepine withdrawal information on the web, says that 1 in 6 are disabled by benzodiazepine withdrawal. https://www.benzoinfo.com/

 

I'm surprised! I read something in an article a few weeks ago that said 70-80% of people that have been on them for 6 months or longer have a lot of difficulty getting off the things. I'm approaching year 24, so I guess I don't fit that mold. This is a bitch of an experience!! Onwards we all go...

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

We seem to read the same articles!  And I've seen a few articles that suggest it is length of time on the medicine is the most predictive indicator of issues with coming off these meds.  And it's common knowledge that drug companies cover up some of the articles that talk about the hazards of long term usage of this and other psych meds.  Not being a conspiracy theorist here, just a realist.  And I'm not anti psych med!  Don't take my Mirt away until this is done.    There's a great article in the guardian that is floating around FB these days on drug companies and their research into depression and anxiety.  (Wish my computer skills were up to posting the link here)

SS

SS

[[ga...]]

 

Builder, are saying that most people only spend several weeks in a taper?? Fill me in on what I'm missing.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Yes.  Most folks are able to discontinue benzos with only limited difficulties.  BBs are outliers.

 

From what I've read so far, no one has done a study on this, but most people do taper off with minimal symptoms over the course of a few months.

 

I personally know one woman who tapered over the course of 6 months with no trouble. I also know a woman who attempted a taper of Xanax briefly, and, when she had severe symptoms, was told that proved the needed the drug. She believes this and says she will be on Xanax forever.

 

One article I read made a guess, estimating that perhaps 30% of benzo users have significant trouble withdrawing.

 

BIC, which seems to be one of the most reliable sources of benzodiazepine withdrawal information on the web, says that 1 in 6 are disabled by benzodiazepine withdrawal. https://www.benzoinfo.com/

 

I'm surprised! I read something in an article a few weeks ago that said 70-80% of people that have been on them for 6 months or longer have a lot of difficulty getting off the things. I'm approaching year 24, so I guess I don't fit that mold. This is a bitch of an experience!! Onwards we all go...

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

 

That number wouldn't surprise me. My own doctor refuses to tell me what his experience is with trying to get patients off of benzos saying "that's not relevant."

Thank God for the internet or we'd all be alone and in the dark.

[[bu...]]

 

 

I'm surprised! I read something in an article a few weeks ago that said 70-80% of people that have been on them for 6 months or longer have a lot of difficulty getting off the things. I'm approaching year 24, so I guess I don't fit that mold. This is a bitch of an experience!! Onwards we all go...

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

 

I would be very interested in the source of that article.  Do you have a link?

[[Ho...]]

 

 

I'm surprised! I read something in an article a few weeks ago that said 70-80% of people that have been on them for 6 months or longer have a lot of difficulty getting off the things. I'm approaching year 24, so I guess I don't fit that mold. This is a bitch of an experience!! Onwards we all go...

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

 

I would be very interested in the source of that article.  Do you have a link?

 

I have seen numbers all over the place in the literature. No general consensus. The APA had a task force on Benzos in the early 90s https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.148.9.1251-a You have to buy the book to look at it but it cost a whopping 4$ on eBay  it quotes a range of 40-80% of people having withdrawal symptoms when coming off Benzos. And thanks for the nod to BIC gard! I am one of the co-directors. We are working hard (while tapering  :'() to shed some light on this awful problem.

[[ga...]]

 

 

I'm surprised! I read something in an article a few weeks ago that said 70-80% of people that have been on them for 6 months or longer have a lot of difficulty getting off the things. I'm approaching year 24, so I guess I don't fit that mold. This is a bitch of an experience!! Onwards we all go...

 

Hugs to you!

 

Jeff

 

I would be very interested in the source of that article.  Do you have a link?

 

I have seen numbers all over the place in the literature. No general consensus. The APA had a task force on Benzos in the early 90s https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.148.9.1251-a You have to buy the book to look at it but it cost a whopping 4$ on eBay  it quotes a range of 40-80% of people having withdrawal symptoms when coming off Benzos. And thanks for the nod to BIC gard! I am one of the co-directors. We are working hard (while tapering  :'() to shed some light on this awful problem.

 

Hi, Hope! Good to see you, and you are very welcome. I've been so impressed with BIC and so grateful that there is now a strong and sensible voice dedicated to informing the pubic and the medical community about the potential dangers of benzodiazepines. Patients have a right to know before they take their first pill what the dangers are so they are giving informed consent, not misinformed consent.

 

And onward we go, one day closer to freedom!

 

Gard