Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[me...]]

Yes, SS, please keep us posted on how things are going!

[[Li...]]

Okay, I finally posted my list of things that can worsen insomnia:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=164920.0

 

Please add anything you feel is missing!

 

An update from me; sleeping is fine, that's the good news.The bad; Thanks to a jump off Depakote one and a half week ago (this is another medicine I used for a long time) I feel depressed and my tummy is not feeling good either. I am really having a tough period, even swimming does not help a lot.

Lightspacer--sorry to hear the jump from Depakote has been hard. It seems like that is a tough one to get off of. You could possibly think about reinstating at a very small amount if it gets unbearable.

Hi Meowie

That's a good idea, but perhaps I am a bit stubborn, because I want try to stay off depakote. Returning to depakote is the last thing I want to do, and I have to accept that I am going through a healing process. What helped me today is taking a cold shower, I start with warm water and then slowly I make the beam colder and colder until it is at its most cold, then I try to stay in it for some while.

 

The coming three days the weather is becoming tropical hot, that can make tapering even more tough, well let's hope for the best...LS

[[bu...]]

Hi everyone, so sorry I've been missing from this thread for awhile.  I'm glad that someone chimed in to explain that I went back to work full-time after 8 years (yikes!) a month ago and I've been struggling to adjust to this brave new world.

 

I am so glad to see that in my absence, so much good advice has been dispensed!  Perhaps I should stay away more often!

 

All kidding aside, I'm going to make a concerted effort to be here more regularly.  Certainly, if I've learned anything about this journey off z-drugs these past four years, it has been that I couldn't have done it without the help of all those who went before me (and sadly with me).

 

At now 40 months off, I've made some amazing gains in the past few months.  In particular, I found out about how the calcium supplement (in the form of calcium ascorbate or Vitamin C) was really causing my intense muscle pain, the worst of my withdrawal symptom since month 18 off zopiclone.

 

In a few short weeks after I discontinued the calcium and added a few other muscle pain supplements (I outlined this in a thread on the Protracted board), my pain started to significantly lessen.

 

By the beginning of August, I was well enough to look into a position that was posted for a job quite near to my home (a 1 minute commute) and strangely, I interviewed almost immediately and they offered me the job on the spot.  No one was more surprised than me!  I hadn't worked since my late husband's suicide in November of 2008 and had gone through so many trials and tribulations on the health front since that time, not the least of which was my z-drug withdrawal journey.

 

I have to say though that once the muscle pain started leaving, I could tell that I had really healed significantly in the past year since I had my first ever windows in month 23.  So many things have improved, not the least of which is my sleep.  Despite going back to work full-time, my sleep has been rock solid except for one night and thankfully that was last weekend - the long weekend - where I had a few days of intense muscle pain that prevented me from sleeping properly.

 

I'm up reasonably early (most days I sleep until 7 am) and out the door to start work for 9 but I've managed quite a few earlier starts without issue.  I'm hitting the pillow at night pretty darned early - most nights I'm heading for bed around 8:30 pm and asleep by 9:30 or so.  So most nights, I'm sleeping straight through, usually 10 hours or more.  I'm dog tired by 5:00 pm but I'm managing and the stress is dropping away as I can clearly see that I am able to keep up cognitively for the most part.  I'm not doing brain surgery or advanced software development but that's ok.  My brain could be more optimized, I'm tired on the weekends, but I'm very, very grateful to be well enough - seemingly suddenly but in truth it has taken me 3 years to get here.

 

But the one thing I wanted to say is that my sleep really did improve, year over year.  The first 16 months were quite rocky - good nights and bad stretches - but slowly, every so slowly, my sleep consolidated and the bad nights started to be few and far between.  In my 2nd year, my sleep continued to improve and altough I still had ragged stretches of multiple nights, even weeks, where I might be up in the middle of the night, by the end of 24 months, I was starting to have some nights where I would sleep straight through and some where I slept for 12 hours or more solid.

 

This past year, between 24 and 36 months, this trend just continued to solidify.  Most nights I slept straight through or if I did wake up, I went right back to sleep.

 

Since January of this year, I've also decreased my Trazodone - I'm now down to 25 mg from 100 mg on 1 January 2016.  I'm aiming to be off completely by year's end but I'm in no rush.  I know I'll do it.  At that point, I will be off all psychoactive medications completely - yeah me - for the first time in 8 years.

 

It has been a long, long road back to health.  Making the decision to come off and to STAY OFF the z-drugs and let my brain heal was the greatest gift I could have ever given myself.  Getting properly diagnosed in 2010 and treated for hormonal "bankruptcy", adrenal exhaustion and going on bio-identical hormones after hitting menopause saved my life.  It made it possible for me to sleep again - it restored my underlying sleep architecture.  I see so many hormonally deranged people these days, they end up on benzodiazepines, z-drugs and antidepressants when they need to balance their hormones.  Don't get me started!  Other things that have helped me?  Judicious use of supplements (0.5 mg liquid melatonin at bedtime, 5-HTP), my muscle pain supplement protocol (see the protracted thread) and BenzoBuddies, a very great gift.

 

So, I won't be a stranger and I'm holding out an olive branch of sorts - if I can go back to work at 55 after 8 years of not working and total health collapse, including multiple hospitalizations and 6 ECT treatments in the first year after losing my husband, not to mention being polydrugged with psychiatric medications against my will, then I firmly believe that we can all heal.

 

There is life after z-drugs.  I promise!

 

Sending love, hope and happiness your way,

 

:smitten:

 

Ali

 

Thank you for the dose of hope. I am already feeling so surprisingly well that I am dreaming of returning to school for my masters next year and eventual return to gainful employment!!!

 

I am averaging 6-9 hours of sleep in the past week with 1-2 wakings to pee (I have a bladder disease so that is good!). I gave up the melatonin for now and just take 5 htp. I felt so good today on just 6 hours sleep, I ran this morning, did several loads of laundry and some yard work!!! Feeling amazing  :yippee:

[[me...]]

Thank you for the dose of hope. I am already feeling so surprisingly well that I am dreaming of returning to school for my masters next year and eventual return to gainful employment!!!

 

I am averaging 6-9 hours of sleep in the past week with 1-2 wakings to pee (I have a bladder disease so that is good!). I gave up the melatonin for now and just take 5 htp. I felt so good today on just 6 hours sleep, I ran this morning, did several loads of laundry and some yard work!!! Feeling amazing  :yippee:

 

Wow butterfly, so happy for you! You guys are making me cry! Hurray for healing after all this crap! 

[[Se...]]

Made me cry too Meowie.

 

You go Butterfly, hang on to days like that.  I had one like that in January of this year where I felt 100% well.  Hadn't happened in 6 years.

 

It was then that I just knew in my bones that I would truly be well.

 

And here I am, a scant 8 months later, gainfully employed.

 

I fell like Alice dropped headfirst through the looking glass.

 

Still a bit gobsmacked.  But really enjoying myself and amazed that I could get here.

 

So hope everyone, hold on to hope.  Where there is life, there is hope.  Our bodies can AND DO heal, given he right conditions.

 

 

Ali

[[Ce...]]

Made me cry too Meowie.

 

You go Butterfly, hang on to days like that.  I had one like that in January of this year where I felt 100% well.  Hadn't happened in 6 years.

 

It was then that I just knew in my bones that I would truly be well.

 

And here I am, a scant 8 months later, gainfully employed.

 

I fell like Alice dropped headfirst through the looking glass.

 

Still a bit gobsmacked.  But really enjoying myself and amazed that I could get here.

 

So hope everyone, hold on to hope.  Where there is life, there is hope.  Our bodies can AND DO heal, given he right conditions.

 

 

Ali

 

 

:smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:

[[Lo...]]

Hi Meowie, I need your help! I have been wondering for some time about your taper from Amitriptyline. In your signature line you put...

"3/9 stomach blew up, reinstating amitryptiline at 1.5 mg, starting a taper".

 

Following reinstatement do you feel that your withdrawal symptoms were from Amitriptyline WD or from the other drugs that you CT's from?

 

I have been taking very small amounts of Doxepin. I have had the 10 mg capsules for several years and then months ago switched to the 3 mg Silenor which is just low dose Doxepin - they can charge far more for a smaller dose! I paid $65 for 30 caps for a couple of months and then decided to just open and dump some of the contents of the 10 mg Doxepin I still had left. It is really cheap.

 

So, lately I have been dumping most of the cap of Doxepin - very inaccurate. The last couple of nights have been bad ie 4.5 hours and I am wondering why? 3 nights ago I slept for 7.5 hours without waking.

 

I have looked at your list and have not figured out a reason for the insomnia.  I seem to be able to sleep much longer if I don't wake at all. It is getting back to sleep that is tricky for me. Perhaps I should increase Doxepin until I am off Zopiclone for awhile? Doxepin does help me to stay asleep.

 

Do you think I might have had some very low amounts of Doxepin in my boxes that I make up for the week? I dump most of contents out. Or perhaps I need to do a hold on the Zopiclone - have gone pretty quickly if compared to benzo WD. Or who knows! I don't know how you persevered through many sleep deprived nights.

 

I am going on a Sisters weekend this weekend and need to be feel safe to drive to another city.

 

Feeling exhausted!  Thanks for any help. LL

 

PS: How do the antihistamines work to promote sleep? Gaba receptors? Or?

 

 

[[me...]]

Loveslife--I've got a lot to say about your situation, but not a lot of time this morning, so I'll get back to it later (plus need to research a bit). Had a bad night last night--only 40 minutes of sleep! I think it is related to the teeth issues I've been having and just getting off another round of antibiotics, plus the pain of root scaling. Arrghhhh!

 

I think what you may be experiencing is the withdrawal and rebound effects from the dose of zopiclone you are taking, without enough sedation to consistently put you to sleep. I'm pasting this passage from the Ashton manual again where she discusses this:

    Rebound insomnia, in which sleep is poorer than before drug treatment, is common on withdrawal of benzodiazepines. It is most marked when the drugs have been taken regularly for long periods, but can occur after only 1 week of low dose administration.[l6,l8,22,23] Sleep latency is prolonged, intrasleep wakenings become more frequent, REMS duration and intensity is increased with vivid dreams or nightmares that may add to frequent awakenings.

 

    Rebound insomnia is conspicuous with moderately rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines (lorazepam, temazepam) and may last for weeks in some patients.[24] With rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines (triazolam), rebound effects may occur in the latter part of the night and cause early morning waking and daytime anxiety.[25] With slowly eliminated benzodiazepines (nitrazepam, diazepam), SWS and REMS may remain depressed for some weeks and then slowly return to baseline, sometimes without a rebound. Rebound effects, when they occur, encourage continued hypnotic usage and contribute to the development of hypnotic dependence.

(emphasis mine--zopiclone is rapidly eliminated like triazolam)

 

I experienced this whenever I tried to lower the dose of zolpidem. Very frustrating! If you are not ready to jump, your best bet is probably to up the doxepin--you could try splitting the 10 mg. capsules in half for a bit more, or even go back to the 10 mg. for a bit, still a pretty low dose. Unless you feel that the doxepin is exacerbating your insomnia (see below).

 

Following reinstatement do you feel that your withdrawal symptoms were from Amitriptyline WD or from the other drugs that you CT's from?

It's hard to say as this winter was such a mess of different drugs, trying to fight insomnia. But I can definitely say that the amitryptiline had gone paradoxical on me, and was giving me nights of 0-2 hours of sleep, even with a z-drug. Once I jumped, I got at least 4 hours almost every night, which was much more bearable. At this point I'm pretty sure that any residual issues are from amitryptiline withdrawal.

 

Good luck figuring this out! it can get confusing very easily...

[[Lo...]]

Loveslife--I've got a lot to say about your situation, but not a lot of time this morning, so I'll get back to it later (plus need to research a bit). Had a bad night last night--only 40 minutes of sleep! I think it is related to the teeth issues I've been having and just getting off another round of antibiotics, plus the pain of root scaling. Arrghhhh!

 

I think what you may be experiencing is the withdrawal and rebound effects from the dose of zopiclone you are taking, without enough sedation to consistently put you to sleep. I'm pasting this passage from the Ashton manual again where she discusses this:

    Rebound insomnia, in which sleep is poorer than before drug treatment, is common on withdrawal of benzodiazepines. It is most marked when the drugs have been taken regularly for long periods, but can occur after only 1 week of low dose administration.[l6,l8,22,23] Sleep latency is prolonged, intrasleep wakenings become more frequent, REMS duration and intensity is increased with vivid dreams or nightmares that may add to frequent awakenings.

 

    Rebound insomnia is conspicuous with moderately rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines (lorazepam, temazepam) and may last for weeks in some patients.[24] With rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines (triazolam), rebound effects may occur in the latter part of the night and cause early morning waking and daytime anxiety.[25] With slowly eliminated benzodiazepines (nitrazepam, diazepam), SWS and REMS may remain depressed for some weeks and then slowly return to baseline, sometimes without a rebound. Rebound effects, when they occur, encourage continued hypnotic usage and contribute to the development of hypnotic dependence.

(emphasis mine--zopiclone is rapidly eliminated like triazolam)

 

I experienced this whenever I tried to lower the dose of zolpidem. Very frustrating! If you are not ready to jump, your best bet is probably to up the doxepin--you could try splitting the 10 mg. capsules in half for a bit more, or even go back to the 10 mg. for a bit, still a pretty low dose. Unless you feel that the doxepin is exacerbating your insomnia (see below).

 

Following reinstatement do you feel that your withdrawal symptoms were from Amitriptyline WD or from the other drugs that you CT's from?

It's hard to say as this winter was such a mess of different drugs, trying to fight insomnia. But I can definitely say that the amitryptiline had gone paradoxical on me, and was giving me nights of 0-2 hours of sleep, even with a z-drug. Once I jumped, I got at least 4 hours almost every night, which was much more bearable. At this point I'm pretty sure that any residual issues are from amitryptiline withdrawal.

 

Good luck figuring this out! it can get confusing very easily...

Many many thanks, Meowie! This is very helpful for me and comes at the perfect time as I am to see my family doc this afternoon. He is very Integrative in approach...better than most of the docs I read about on BB but still has a ways to go in understanding this withdrawal process. Back end of June he thought I should decreased by .25 per week and be done with the process in 10 weeks.

 

I will see what my doc has to say today but am thinking I may jump after this weekend...need to see some clear space ahead where I can tolerate some insomnia.

 

I did much better last night - I took most of a 10 mg Doxepin. Maybe I will need to use it until I am well off of Zopiclone and my body has really recovered. Six months maybe? Or more. I would like to know more about how these tricyclics work to help sleep.

 

I also ate a lot more yesterday including more carbs. Three or four days ago I had started being very careful about sugars in my diet (I've gained some padding around the middle since starting this Zop taper). I guess I unwittingly went too low carb.

 

There are so many things that can affect our sleep. I'm sure that your teeth issues contributed a lot to your 40 min sleep night. Any toxic load will do it to me! I hope you were not on a quinolone antibiotic like Cipro.

 

Your 40 min sleep was also around the time of the full moon. That does affect some of us. How was your sleep last night? Better I hope!

 

Many thanks again,  LL

[[me...]]

I did much better last night - I took most of a 10 mg Doxepin. Maybe I will need to use it until I am well off of Zopiclone and my body has really recovered. Six months maybe? Or more. I would like to know more about how these tricyclics work to help sleep.

Glad to hear the night went better and hopefully that continues to work for you. I slept 9 hours last night--it was delicious! If tonight follows previous patterns, it will be shorter, like 5-6 hours.

 

Nobody is actually certain how antidepressants work--not even for depression!, much less for insomnia. The working theory is that they increase serotonin levels, which helps with depression and sleep. I read a new theory in The Brain Makers, but I can't recall what it was, had to do with brain inflammation.

[[Li...]]

Small update from me; I am now two and a half week without Depakote, and still not feeling good.  It could be that it is as tough as tapering a benzo. Sleep is fine, but I feel depressed. 

[[me...]]

Small update from me; I am now two and a half week without Depakote, and still not feeling good.  It could be that it is as tough as tapering a benzo. Sleep is fine, but I feel depressed. 

Insomnia is bad, but depression is (for me) the absolute worst thing! I'd rather be sleep deprived.

[[Li...]]

Small update from me; I am now two and a half week without Depakote, and still not feeling good.  It could be that it is as tough as tapering a benzo. Sleep is fine, but I feel depressed. 

Insomnia is bad, but depression is (for me) the absolute worst thing! I'd rather be sleep deprived.

 

In the evening I mostly feel best and in the mornings worst... I don't know if I agree, I have had periods with lots of insomnia which I consider worse than what I experience now. Maybe I don't have severe depression? Still except from swimming I am not able to do other activities like painting and making music. I want to stay away from groups of people, because it is hard communicating with a depressed mind...

[[Se...]]

Small update from me; I am now two and a half week without Depakote, and still not feeling good.  It could be that it is as tough as tapering a benzo. Sleep is fine, but I feel depressed. 

Insomnia is bad, but depression is (for me) the absolute worst thing! I'd rather be sleep deprived.

 

In the evening I mostly feel best and in the mornings worst... I don't know if I agree, I have had periods with lots of insomnia which I consider worse than what I experience now. Maybe I don't have severe depression? Still except from swimming I am not able to do other activities like painting and making music. I want to stay away from groups of people, because it is hard communicating with a depressed mind...

 

Lightspacer,

 

I came off Epival (Valproic Acid) many years ago - I wasn't on it for that long but it is a very difficult drug and withdrawal can be hard on your system.  These drugs - this class of medication - wreaks havoc on your hormones so I do hope you have had your testosterone levels checked.

 

It will get better and you are early days for the z-drug withdrawal as well.  The "blah" feeling dogged me for a long, long time.  I eventually started some L-Tyrosine amino acid capsules a few months ago and that really helped me but I was over 3 years off the z-drug at that point.  I'll try to find the thread with LOTS of great links and quizzes on how to tell if you are low in certain neurotransmitters.  For those of us struggling in protracted, sometimes adding a judicious small amount of amino acid can be the ticket to helping with our lingering symptoms.

 

I was also on 5-HTP which is a precursor to serotonin - here in Vancouver, BC it is very expensive to use L-Tryptophan an amino acid which is also a precursor on the synthesis path to help boost serotonin so I used the cheaper and for me, effective, 5-HTP.  The amino acid thread had the cautions for adding these aminos so it should be read first but it helped me with my sleep.  You should always check with your pharmacist too to see if there are interactions with any other medications before adding amino acids.  Although these are building blocks to proteins and found in food, they can interact.  But for me, early on, 5-HTP helped and later the L-Tyrosine seemed to very quickly lift my motivation, energy and diminish the "blah" feeling I had.  I later learned that continuous use of 5-HTP can drive your brain to produce serotonin at the expense of dopamine because they use the same co-factors.  I believe that I was a little low on dopamine and adding the L-Tyrosine quickly helped.

 

It helped enough that I take just one capsule every morning and I started back to work full time after 7 years off within short order of actually starting the L-Tyrosine.  Of course, there was more to it than that as I had changed my supplements to drop the calcium ascorbate as the calcium was opposing my magnesium and causing muscle pain.  So these few things really helped get me to this next level of healing and I have to say, back to work after all these years.

 

Hang in there.  If you stay off these drugs and don't add more and give yourself the nutritional support - and test your hormones - you will heal.

 

I promise.

 

 

Ali

[[wa...]]

Ali or others further along.  I've been through many difficult health chapters on this journey but this last one is pretty excruciating.  The muscles along my spine, scapula and shoulders are so tight and painful that I have not even been able to get my paltry sleep.  I just shift all night in pain -up/down, in the chair - to bed.  I can barely type this.  i thought it was a torn rotator cuff since if followed an incident.  Sports doc unconcerned.  I'm prescribed a nonbenzo and resorted to opiod but no relief so just miserable.  How long is an unfair question.  But how long? W

[[Se...]]

Ali or others further along.  I've been through many difficult health chapters on this journey but this last one is pretty excruciating.  The muscles along my spine, scapula and shoulders are so tight and painful that I have not even been able to get my paltry sleep.  I just shift all night in pain -up/down, in the chair - to bed.  I can barely type this.  i thought it was a torn rotator cuff since if followed an incident.  Sports doc unconcerned.  I'm prescribed a nonbenzo and resorted to opiod but no relief so just miserable.  How long is an unfair question.  But how long? W

 

LL,

 

Can you find my muscle pain post?  I'll post it tomorrow and reply to you.  It so helped me.

 

Sorry, just ran out of time tonight.  Working is taking up a lot of my time these days!

 

 

Ali

[[Se...]]

Here it is:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=159952.msg2159450#msg2159450

 

 

Ali

[[wa...]]

thankyou for this, Ali.  Having trouble sorting it in my state.  I have restarted magnesium without calcium.  WBB

[[wa...]]

SS

I found the stretching diagrams in the thread and my scapula pain is already improved in that ten minutes.  I am searching for a TPI clinician in the NYC/Phila region.  WBB

[[or...]]

Hey guys I took lunesta 3 mg for about 6 weeks back in april to may 2016, then I reduced to 0.75 mg for about 3-4 months with no problems. 0.75 mg stopped working so I switched to 0.5 mg Ativan for the last 2-3 weeks. I would like to stop all. Can I just do cold turkey or should I taper.

[[me...]]

I take it you are not taking the Lunesta at all now? just the Ativan? How is your sleep at present? Are you still on Paxil and/or Zoloft? (be aware that some ADs can make insomnia worse).

 

The good news is that you can taper Ativan successfully--I would suggest trying a quick (1-2 week) taper. Once you start cutting, you can evaluate how you feel and adjust the rate. The bad news is that no matter what you do, you are likely to have a period of fairly bad insomnia. The hardest part will be getting through that without going back to some kind of sleeping pill. You may want to make the pills a bit harder to get to so you don't cave in the middle of the night.

 

If you can get through the first week or so, your sleep should improve to a point that is bearable, then slowly improve after that. You will need to practice very good sleep hygiene.

[[Lo...]]

....The "blah" feeling dogged me for a long, long time.  I eventually started some L-Tyrosine amino acid capsules a few months ago and that really helped me but I was over 3 years off the z-drug at that point.  I'll try to find the thread with LOTS of great links and quizzes on how to tell if you are low in certain neurotransmitters.  For those of us struggling in protracted, sometimes adding a judicious small amount of amino acid can be the ticket to helping with our lingering symptoms.

 

I was also on 5-HTP which is a precursor to serotonin ....The amino acid thread had the cautions for adding these aminos so it should be read first but it helped me with my sleep....But for me, early on, 5-HTP helped and later the L-Tyrosine seemed to very quickly lift my motivation, energy and diminish the "blah" feeling I had.  I later learned that continuous use of 5-HTP can drive your brain to produce serotonin at the expense of dopamine because they use the same co-factors.  I believe that I was a little low on dopamine and adding the L-Tyrosine quickly helped.

 

It helped enough that I take just one capsule every morning and I started back to work full time after 7 years off within short order of actually starting the L-Tyrosine.  Of course, there was more to it than that as I had changed my supplements to drop the calcium ascorbate as the calcium was opposing my magnesium and causing muscle pain.  So these few things really helped get me to this next level of healing and I have to say, back to work after all these years....

Ali

Very interesting, SeekingSanity. My doc suggested I try an amino acid product called Freeminos. I've been reluctant but will now look for the amino acid thread. The search function on this site does not work very well!

 

Also Tyrosine has been suggested for me and I will try that at some point. I have some in the drawer but have been afraid it might make me hyper and so have not tried YET.

 

Were you taking the 5HTP in the same time period as the l-tyrosine?

 

Good point too about calcium ascorbate. I have been having a cheese sandwich for lunch of late. I wonder if the calcium in it is negatively affecting my calcium/magnesium balance. I need a huge amount of magnesium due to my genetics as determined by the 23andme test.

 

I hope work (and LIFE) are going well for you.  Thanks for all the information! LL

[[Lo...]]

 

I'll try to find the thread with LOTS of great links and quizzes on how to tell if you are low in certain neurotransmitters. ...

 

....The amino acid thread had the cautions for adding these aminos so it should be read first but it helped me with my sleep. 

 

Ali

Hi Ali, I have not been able to find the amino acid thread. Hope you can help!  Thanks, LL

[[Se...]]

It is actually in this thread, my apologies, you have to read through it.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=159952.msg2141739#msg2141739

 

 

Ali

[[Be...]]

I'd start with a small dose of amino acids.  I took too much one time and it really messed me up for days.