Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[Li...]]

Hi all,

The depakine taper is really tougher than I expected, even tougher than tapering zopiclone. It is mainly the feeling in my brain which is bad. A kind of depressed feeling. It is hard to describe.

The weather is really hot at the moment and it will stay hot till sunday. Not a good combination with a taper. Still I will go on with it. This afternoon I went swimming. It was quite busy in the swimming pool, with a lot of kids, but luckily the lanes for the lane swimmers were really quiet, I swam 900 meters. It makes me feel better. Besides swimming I cancelled all my activities. I even don't want to go to the beach, which is 12 km from here. I wish you all a good taper... Jerry

[[ca...]]

Hi everyone. Just a short update. I am down tonight to 3.75 mg which is half a pill. I am really excited Sleep is not good but not horrible. Take benedril some of the nights and it works really well.  Lots of love to everyone.

 

 

 

[[Fr...]]

Way to go Carem but just remember if you take Benadryl you might experience withdrawl on the nights you don't take it. 

 

Just an update, its been a while.  I'm almost 4 wks out on being Lunesta/Ativan FREE!  The night I stopped Lunesta, I started taking the supplement Theanine Serene with Relora.  Some nights I'll take .05 Melatonin with it or Chamomile tea but all natural. 

 

So hows my sleep?  Ok......I am waking up alot, some nights more than others but even with that happening, the sleep I am getting is much more deep and refreshing.  I'm waking up so happy and rested.  Its so true that there is big difference between drugged sleep and natural sleep.  I'm waiting for the night I can sleep with NO wake ups (well that might never happen b/c I wake up to pee) but 1 wake up. 

 

So last night.....hmmmmm.....I started a detox with dandelion tea and drank it all day, up until 8pm or so and I feel like I hardly slept.  I got up and took MinTran (mineral supplement that  makes me sleepy) and got a few hours of shut eye but I'm boggled as to why I had such a bad night?  I don't want to dwell on it and will blame the dumb tea, although its caffeine free. So WHO KNOWS! 

 

But like the Effortless book, she says don't even question it and give the thought a space in your mind.  Let it go and look forward to tonight.  But like always bad nights aren't forever, they always end!!!

 

 

[[me...]]

Freespirit--it is so great to hear you are doing so well! A big congratulations for getting this far and not slipping back!

 

I think our bodies are still very sensitive after jumping, and any small thing that would not bother a "normal" person could really set us back with insomnia. I've been meaning to put together a list of things that can derail sleep and I should get that together, it really is eye-opening all the things that could do it! And then you never know if you might still be dealing with rebound effects even the next night.

 

But at least you know that your body can sleep on it's own and will sleep again! A wonderful feeling.

[[wa...]]

Blechh - just want to get this over.  Thanks to all who listened to my every symptom since last December.  I expect to jump sometime next month when my trigger teen is back in school.  So that whatever happens -- at least I don't have to interact with another person unless I choose to.

 

Although I've been on RX drugs for this, that and the other thing my whole adult life  - it is the Lunesta that is my last frontier.  I have been recalling glimpses of past experiences that make me think I had CT acute w/d in my past, most likely Elavil and Ativan.  I remember on 2 occasions having brief hallucinations even.  I am trying to put together a timeline of my life thinking I may have been in withdrawal.  It's a little frightening to think what has happened to my brain.

 

I am beginning to imagine a life without drugs. WBB

[[me...]]

I am beginning to imagine a life without drugs. WBB

 

Pretty amazing to think about, no? I still get almost teary every time I think about finally being completely off drugs, after being on them for my entire adult life. I only hope now that my body and brain can get back to where they are supposed to be, doing all I can.

[[Lo...]]

I am beginning to imagine a life without drugs. WBB

 

Pretty amazing to think about, no? I still get almost teary every time I think about finally being completely off drugs, after being on them for my entire adult life. I only hope now that my body and brain can get back to where they are supposed to be, doing all I can.

Hi Meowie and Wannabebetter, FreeSpirit123 and all, I too am imaging a life without drugs - I am now down to a tiny little bit of zopiclone.

 

My concern also is getting my brain working well. Word search and memory are a problem. Fortunately short term memory not too bad.

 

I am wondering if we could support each other in rehabilitating our brains over the next while. There are certainly books out there such as this one:

 

Why Isn't My Brain Working?: A Revolutionary Understanding of Brain Decline and Effective Strategies to Recover Your Brain's Health Paperback – May 1 2013

by Dr. Datis Kharrazian (Author)

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Isnt-Brain-Working-Revolutionary-Understanding/dp/0985690437

 

I know we have damage from using benzos but also from the general wear and tear of living the modern lifestyle. Perhaps some of the advice he gives will help us?

 

I have read his book some time ago but want to read it again.

 

Summer is coming to an end and fall feels like a new beginning. What self improvement projects are you thinking of? Or is it too soon?

 

Once the rest of my visitors leave I will start to greatly reduce sugar in my diet. I have gained 4-5 lbs over the past 5 months as I was allowing myself to eat some sweets and junk when feeling the effects of the taper. Its time to clean up my diet again!  LLL

 

[[Lo...]]

Is z-drug withdrawal like benzo withdrawal? On the main board I've posted and been asked if I was ever on a benzo. I thought z drugs were like benzodiazepines???

 

Erp8--that's the million dollar question. I continue to postulate that withdrawal from a z-drug is nothing like withdrawal from a benzo. Z-drugs were developed because they rapidly metabolize out of the system and are gone (within a few hours), and only bind to one or two subunits of the GABA receptor. Thus it was felt that they would provide less next-day sedation, and also lead to less tolerance and dependence.

 

I've seen tons of anecdotal reports of people with long, continuous z-drug use, even for years, that have done cold-turkeys without any issue and really no withdrawal effects other than some disturbed sleep. This would obviously not be the case with a benzo. Thus I feel the dependence on z-drugs is almost completely psychological. (this is not the case for those using large doses of z-drugs, or dosing all day long). Professor Ashton also agrees that a cold-turkey is an appropriate withdrawal method from z-drugs.

 

But I'm definitely in the minority here and there are several who are in the process of tapering z-drugs right now, as they feel that they will avoid any possible post-withdrawal effects that way. Tapering a z-drug is not an easy thing to do.

Hi Meowie, I am responding to your post now as I was away a lot. As you know I am one of those doing a slow taper from a Z-drug, Zopiclone. I have had a relatively easy time of it but still feel I need to taper more before jumping. I am home again now after a very busy summer of travel (strange beds and occasional snorer nearby) and scads of family visiting. In 3 days I will be on my own again and able to settle in to a routine. Will see then if it is time to jump.

 

You said: Professor Ashton also agrees that a cold-turkey is an appropriate withdrawal method from z-drugs. I would like to know where you saw that information. I only saw that she recommended switching over to Diazepam and doing a slow taper.

 

I also wonder what the point is that one feels any sedating/relaxing effect? How is that determined?

 

Thanks for your input. LL

 

[[me...]]

Hi Loveslife--here is the relevant paragraph, repeated in a couple of place in Ashton Manual:

 

In my experience, the only exception to the general rule of slow reduction is triazolam (Halcion). This benzodiazepine is eliminated so quickly (half-life 2 hours) that you are practically withdrawn each day, after a dose the night before. For this reason, triazolam can be stopped abruptly without substitution of a long-acting benzodiazepine. If withdrawal symptoms occur, you could take a short course of diazepam starting at about 10mg, decreasing the dosage as shown on Schedule 2. The same approach applies to the non-benzodiazepines zolpidem and zaleplon which both have half-lives of 2 hours.

 

Regarding zopiclone (same half life as eszopiclone):

It is possible to withdraw directly from zopiclone using the smallest available tablets (3.75mg), but this dose of zopiclone is equivalent to 2.5mg diazepam making for rather abrupt dosage reductions.

I take it from this she is saying you can jump from 3.75 mg? a normal low starting dose.

 

I also found these paragraphs interesting in relation to z-drugs:

Rebound insomnia, in which sleep is poorer than before drug treatment, is common on withdrawal of benzodiazepines. It is most marked when the drugs have been taken regularly for long periods, but can occur after only 1 week of low dose administration.[l6,l8,22,23] Sleep latency is prolonged, intrasleep wakenings become more frequent, REMS duration and intensity is increased with vivid dreams or nightmares that may add to frequent awakenings.

 

Rebound insomnia is conspicuous with moderately rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines (lorazepam, temazepam) and may last for weeks in some patients.[24] With rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines (triazolam), rebound effects may occur in the latter part of the night and cause early morning waking and daytime anxiety.[25] With slowly eliminated benzodiazepines (nitrazepam, diazepam), SWS and REMS may remain depressed for some weeks and then slowly return to baseline, sometimes without a rebound. Rebound effects, when they occur, encourage continued hypnotic usage and contribute to the development of hypnotic dependence.

(emphasis mine)

 

And the question at hand now:

 

Do benzodiazepines cause structural brain damage? These results have raised the question of whether benzodiazepines can cause structural brain damage. Like alcohol, benzodiazepines are fat soluble and are taken up by the fat-containing (lipid) membranes of brain cells. It has been suggested that their use over many years could cause physical changes such as shrinkage of the cerebral cortex, as has been shown in chronic alcoholics, and that such changes may be only partially reversible after withdrawal. However, despite several computed tomography (CT) scan studies, no signs of brain atrophy have been conclusively demonstrated in therapeutic dose users, and even the results in high dose abusers are inconclusive. It is possible that benzodiazepines can cause subtle changes which are not detected by present methods, but on the available evidence there is no reason to think that any such changes would be permanent.

 

I've got the book Why Isn't My Brain Working? on hold at library--looks interesting!

[[wa...]]

I don't know - maybe it's just me.  But it still seems equivocal -  Ashton offering up crossover to 10 mg V based on sxs?  (10 mgs of V would have knocked me down, BTW). So the recommendation on what to do is still based on sxs which is subjective.

 

It is also most definitely a trigger for me to read anything about brain decline right now, so I'll pass.  I'm good.  WBB

[[bu...]]

Hi all. After several scary attempts to taper ambien cr, I resorted to a medical detox facility. I have just returned completely off of all meds!!!i had only a few withdrawal symptoms. I feel decent, a little foggy, some minor insomnia some days but doing well taking melatonin. Though I hear that I can't take it every night, going to read up on that.

 

I had also done slow taper from klonopin so I was having a lot of tolerance withdrawal before I went to detox. So glad to have this over with. I have headaches, some body aches and feeling off balance but overall functioning quite well and sooooo happy to have this over with.

 

I am happy to ask questions of anyone wants to PM me. Meanwhile I highly recommend that everyone learns to meditate and have perfect sleep hygiene. This has been key to me feeling more calm and able to sleep.

 

Wishing you all healing!

[[wa...]]

Kudos Butterfly 1.  It looks like you worked a long time to get where you are.  Congratulations.  Ambien is no joke.  I hope it wasn't too rough for you in there and that your sleep is OK.  WBB

[[Ao...]]

Butterfly 1

 

Sincerely well done on getting off those meds. That is a great achievement. It cannot have been an easy decision to go into a medical detox unit. I have been on Ambien too and it was a nasty one.

 

I noticed what you said about 'meditation and perfect sleep hygiene'

 

I couldn't agree more.  I recently jumped off Seroquel and these were 2 techniques I had to employ to get me off this med.  So well done again. I hope you continue to heal.

 

[[bu...]]

Kudos Butterfly 1.  It looks like you worked a long time to get where you are.  Congratulations.  Ambien is no joke.  I hope it wasn't too rough for you in there and that your sleep is OK.  WBB

 

It was along time getting to this point and yes meditation was key. I am so different in my life now because of it. I just don't get stressed as easy. My emotions are pretty raw. I had an older guy that really scared me in rehab and I cried like a baby but I also advocated for myself which felt awesome.

 

I actually liked doing this phase there. I could cry and whine and leave my husband out of it for the most part. He was pretty wore out from the klonopin withdrawal.

 

I slept great again last night with just melatonin. They say don't take that for long though so tonight I might reduce it or try without.

 

I am having a few issues, tinnitus, balance, candida. But I consider those minor at this point!

[[Lo...]]

It was along time getting to this point and yes meditation was key. I am so different in my life now because of it. I just don't get stressed as easy. My emotions are pretty raw. I had an older guy that really scared me in rehab and I cried like a baby but I also advocated for myself which felt awesome.

 

I actually liked doing this phase there. I could cry and whine and leave my husband out of it for the most part. He was pretty wore out from the klonopin withdrawal.

 

I slept great again last night with just melatonin. They say don't take that for long though so tonight I might reduce it or try without.

 

I am having a few issues, tinnitus, balance, candida. But I consider those minor at this point!

Congratulations! You are an inspiration. I need to work on meditation. And certainly perfect sleep hygiene is key. I have had a very busy hectic summer and on nights like last one where I did not manage sleep hygiene well, my sleep suffers greatly.

 

Can you please tell us more about your experience at the detox centre? What was the program?

Thanks, LL

[[Lo...]]

Hi Everyone, I have been finding that my pieces of Zopiclone are getting to be very small and I wonder about the accuracy of the scale at this point. I found this on the antidepressants.org site and thought others would find it interesting and helpful.

 

Maybe I will try it or maybe I will jump soon. I down to 1.1 mg of Zopiclone. @Seekingsanity When have others you've known jumped off Zopiclone. I had a bad sleep last night and so am not quite ready. However all the family has now departed and so life will be calmer and more conducive to settling into sleep. I will wait until I "feel" ready. LL

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7601-excel-spreadsheet-to-calculate-dose-weights-using-a-scale/

 

Posted 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM

 

Zopiclone is not very water soluble, so you need a liquid that contains some fat like milk, almond milk, or soy milk, homogenized, so the fat droplets are evenly distributed and are in suspension.

 

You measure out the liquid carefully to 100 mL.  To do this, you will need either a syringe or a measuring cylinder.  You can get a 50-mL oral syringes at the drugs store or look for a graduated cylinder.  Both are quite inexpensive and you can get them from Amazon if the drug store doesn't carry them. 

 

http://www.amazon.co...l syringe 50 mL

 

http://www.amazon.co...duated cylinder

 

After measuring the milk, deliver the milk in small jar with a lid, like a baby food jar.  Then you either crush your tablet using a mortar and pestle or two spoons, or just drop the tablet in the measure liquid and allow it to dissolve in the liquid solution, you can experiment and see how long it takes for the tablet to fall apart. 

 

Then you stir the solution by swirling to get a homogeneous solution.  The binders will not dissolve but the zopiclone will.  Then you need a smaller syringe to dose and refrigerate the rest.

 

That's all there is to it.

 

[[Lo...]]

Further to my question of when to jump, I came across this post by Rhiannon. With 3,783 posts I'm guessing that she has read a lot of stories.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11051-when-to-end-the-taper-and-jump-to-zero/

 

by Rhiannon

 

    Platinum star

    Moderators

    3,783 posts

 

    LocationPacific Northwest US

 

Posted 26 December 2014 - 10:20 PM

 

As always, though, your body is the expert on tapering, not a preplanned calendar. We just say 10% of the current dose as a general rule of thumb, a starting off point. How we tolerate reductions is very individual. Making up a plan or calendar ahead of time can give you some ideas, but I can't tell you how many of those I've had to throw out the window when my body made it clear that it does not heal according to a schedule I devise.

 

Overall, at the lowest doses it's best to go very slowly, in my opinion. The upside of that approach is large: You can minimize the chance of going too fast, getting sick, having to reinstate and start over, and all the disruptions and misery that come with withdrawal. And the downside is very small: at such a low dose, the side effects and dangerous drug effects are minimal, and if you go slow enough to keep feeling good you'll already be enjoying many benefits of coming down to such a low dose so you won't be feeling the need to hurry.

 

So I would say, make those last cuts small and the breaks between them long. Take your time. I have seen many many people get into trouble and fail tapers because of going too fast at the end, but I've never seen anyone fail by going too slow.

 

Let me add, as someone tapering, I know this is easier said than done! You get close to that finish line and you want to rush there. But this is really the time when going slow will give you the maximum benefit for the minimum price.

[[Lo...]]

Me again! I am thinking of trying this rather than to mess around with liquids. Furthermore Zopiclone has a bad taste that likely would not be covered up in a liquid. I came across this way of dealing with dry amounts and am posting in case it helps someone else.  LL

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1596-using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses/

 

This is the method I'm using. I'm not recommending it to anyone, I'm just delineating my methodology.

 

First I bought a bag of empty clear "1" gel caps. (They're the same size as my Cymbalta capsules, so later, when I lower the dose, I'm going to use half an original capsule and half a clear one, to differentiate the dosage.)

 

After I got frustrated with counting the grains in a capsule (because the numbers weren't the same from one capsule to the next), I bought this: Gemini-20 Portable Milligram Scale http://www.awscales....milligram-scale I chose this one because it weighs down to milligrams, I found it at a good price on Amazon, and the shipping was free. Anyone who wants to weigh dosages will need to be able to weigh milligrams.

 

I also use these tools:

A tray with sides (those little grains bounce!)

platter.JPG

A plate with sections

plate.JPG

The top of an eyedropper with the round part cut off

eyedropper.JPG

eyedropper2.JPG

eyedropperwithpill.JPG

 

And I have a face mask like they were giving out during the bird flu scare.

 

My first step was to weigh the grains in several capsules. They all weighed the same amount. So I divided that number in half (because right now all I'm doing is breaking 60mg capsules down to 30mg--the dosage I'm supposed to be on).

 

First I put the electronic scale on the tray and calibrate the scale. The instructions for calibrating are included with the scale. Then I put on my face mask, stick an empty capsule half in the eyedropper top and put it on the scale. There's a tare button on the scale that will remove that weight from the display.

 

Then I open a capsule and pour in some grains. The number I'm looking for is 115, so I stop anywhere between 100 and 110. After that I use tweezers (that come with the scale) to add grains.

 

It's very important to do this on a level surface, and to calibrate the scale each time I start. Because the scale weighs to such small amounts, even breathing on it can effect the weight, which is why I wear the face mask.

 

The numbers will go up and down for a few seconds, but once it's stabilized and I'm at the right number, I turn off the scale, take out the capsule, make sure there aren't any grains on the scale itself (I have missed getting them in the capsule), and snap on the other end.

 

Then I start over.

 

>>>>>>>>>>

 

I also was given advice by Badsocref on the Daily Micro-Tapering thread  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=135284.6620

 

Just as you can add more liquid and do smaller cuts using a liquid titration, you can add more solid (carrier) and do smaller cuts using a solid titration.  The key is to crush and mix everything up really well.  Calcium salts are often used as pill fillers, so I'm thinking that something like a Tums would be a safe bet for a bulk material that you could add to your pill.  The new pill weight would be the combined weight of the pill plus a Tums. 

 

 

 

 

 

[[me...]]

Overall, at the lowest doses it's best to go very slowly, in my opinion. The upside of that approach is large: You can minimize the chance of going too fast, getting sick, having to reinstate and start over, and all the disruptions and misery that come with withdrawal. And the downside is very small: at such a low dose, the side effects and dangerous drug effects are minimal, and if you go slow enough to keep feeling good you'll already be enjoying many benefits of coming down to such a low dose so you won't be feeling the need to hurry.

 

So I would say, make those last cuts small and the breaks between them long. Take your time. I have seen many many people get into trouble and fail tapers because of going too fast at the end, but I've never seen anyone fail by going too slow.

Loveslife--I think Rhiannon is brilliant and totally agree with her about the "long tail" taper--for long-term antidepressant usage! (I would have done so myself if I could). Antidepressants are a completely different animal from a z-drug or a benzo. For one thing, they work on the norepinephrine and serotonin systems, and not on the GABA system. They have very different side effects in withdrawal, which can crop up long after jumping. The half lives are variable, but most are much longer than z-drugs. With antidepressants, it is often recommended that you reinstate at a very low dose after jumping to head off withdrawal effects (like I did), this is very much discouraged with benzos and z-drugs. I would be very leary about taking principles from antidepressant withdrawal and using them for z-drug withdrawal, or for benzo withdrawal.

[[Lo...]]

Hi Meowie, I realize that Rhiannon was using the taper for antidepressant withdrawal and not Z-drug withdrawal. It is the method of reducing the dose that I was interested in....ie how to get small enough bits to taper off to practically nothing.

 

However it does not seem the right time for me to taper further - I've had a bit of a crash after returning from time away at cottage and now family has all departed. I've had a bad headache and sleep last two nights was very difficult (I had a lot of health anxiety...a cancer concern that I have been putting off and that needs to be checked. I'd better get on with it.) I had been doing well in the sleep department most nights before this. Occasional bad night usually caused by bad sleep hygiene or having too much caffeine.

 

Last night I did go up a tad with the zopiclone  and added in some supplements. I was getting into panic mode. Not sure if they helped! Cortisol Manager, theanine, Relora. 

 

How does one deal with anxiety in the middle of the night? Racing heart etc. I have tried meditation apps many times and they do not do the trick for me. Reading does help settle me somewhat. And carbs! I get up and eat some cookies! I'm getting fatter! I do wonder if I have blood sugar problems going on too. Its time to tighten up on the diet again. Watch sugars. I have gained 4-5 lbs over the summer! Yikes!

 

I'm not sure what I will do tonight...maybe put some Eckhart Tolle on my ipod - he has a very hypnotic voice.

 

What are you doing, Meowie and others, to deal with the insomnia? Thanks as always for your input.  LL

[[Lo...]]

Hi All, Well, I got myself calmed down yesterday. That's key! I took 500 mg Taurine in afternoon and nothing other than my little itty bit of Zopiclone for sleep. Went easily to sleep at 12 midnight (as surprise) and woke at 9:30!!! Just one short time awake in night when I was too hot. I took one Cortisol Manager from Integrative Therapeutics and was then quickly back to sleep. It contains

    Ashwagandha

    L-theanine

    Phosphatidylserine

    Magnolia

    Epimedium

 

I slept almost 9 1/2 hours! Certainly a lot of that is because of the very poor sleeps the 2 nights before but I am encouraged that I have not hit the wall in this taper.

 

I have not looked up whether the ingredients in Cortisol Manager affect the GABA receptors but am willing to use it as needed to get off Zopiclone. It also gives me psychological support...I'm pretty programmed to take something to help me sleep. I lack confidence that I can do it on my own! Sad. Gotta get over that.

 

Just needed to tell someone who'd understand! LL

 

PS: I know that my genetics play a part in all this. I did the 23andme test and I have the COMT++ variant which means I don't process the catecholamines well ie adrenaline etc. http://www.beyondmthfr.com/a-genetic-cause-of-pain-and-anxiety-comt-mao-and-mthfr/

Maybe some of you don't either. That's likely! Stress management is very important for us.

 

I am starting the mindfulness meditation free online course. Anyone want to join me?

 

 

[[Li...]]

Hi all,

A little update from me; I am still not using Zopiclon. I am really happy with that. And I have stopped using Depakine/Depakote too. That is tough, I feel not good, but I have to bite through sour apple, as we say in Dutch here. I am still sporting in the swimming pool, nothing new. I wish you a good taper!

[[wa...]]

Hi all,

A little update from me; I am still not using Zopiclon. I am really happy with that. And I have stopped using Depakine/Depakote too. That is tough, I feel not good, but I have to bite through sour apple, as we say in Dutch here. I am still sporting in the swimming pool, nothing new. I wish you a good taper!

 

That's great, Lightspacer.  How are you sleeping now? WBB

[[Li...]]

Hi all,

A little update from me; I am still not using Zopiclon. I am really happy with that. And I have stopped using Depakine/Depakote too. That is tough, I feel not good, but I have to bite through sour apple, as we say in Dutch here. I am still sporting in the swimming pool, nothing new. I wish you a good taper!

[/ quote]

 

That's great, Lightspacer.  How are you sleeping now? WBB

 

Hi WBB, yes sleeping is good....thx! LS

[[Lo...]]

Hi all,

A little update from me; I am still not using Zopiclon. I am really happy with that. And I have stopped using Depakine/Depakote too. That is tough, I feel not good, but I have to bite through sour apple, as we say in Dutch here. I am still sporting in the swimming pool, nothing new. I wish you a good taper!

[/ quote]

Way to go, Lightspacer! I too may have to bite through the sour apple!  That last bit of zopiclone is tough to get off of. LL

 

That's great, Lightspacer.  How are you sleeping now? WBB

 

Hi WBB, yes sleeping is good....thx! LS