Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[...]]

Okatz and JJ

I use Etown's 80/20 rule as well.

 

Mental symptoms have never been part of my pathology, so I watch physical symptoms.  They are:

 

Tightness between my shoulder blades

burning sensation in my sternum

tingling in my extremities

wired feeling in the evening (too much glutamate causing excitability)

and of course the insomnia

 

I almost always get the tightness between the shoulder blades around 2pm - 7pm.  If it starts earlier in the day that is a sign I watch for.  If it starts earlier in the day for three days in a row, and the other side effects on the list start showing up it is a clear sign I am tapering too fast and need to stop and hold for a few days.  If I ignore them and allow them to continue to build, I have to up-dose slightly like I did last week and then hold for a few days.

 

Thankfully I have become pretty good at paying attention to the subtleties of the symptoms since they are getting less and less severe as my dose gets lower, but sometimes like last week I still get taken by surprise.

[[hu...]]

e and others,

 

How long did you take to stabilize on Valium after the c/o and before you started tapering?

 

FYI, I'm at 3.5 weeks now and the trend in the last 1.5 weeks has clearly been positive. My night time anxiety levels have basically gone from "terrified" to just "scared."

 

Still, I don't feel that I'm close to 80/20 yet. My doc suggests that I can consider raising the valium dose. She's leaving that choice up to me. I'd like to avoid it if possible.

 

Thx, Human

[[...]]

Hello everyone.

 

Hope your day is going as well as it can, been keeping a close eye on this thread, I have started my taper yet and am still deciding how to tackle it in terms off how many times per day/dose etc. My question is a lot of people are doing micro tapers which I just cant seem to get my head around. I am on 30mg daily spilt in morning/afternoon/night with doses of 10mg. Have most of you dry cut tablets (am still trying to get my head around the maths of trying to cut the 5mg tablets) how much success have people had dry cutting and also how do you know when withdrawal symptoms are due too bad and should switch to a micro taper. I think I have hit tolerance pretty bad and seeing a neuro this month although hopefully will not throw up  anything abnormal. Not sure whether I should post symptoms here so will not at the moment. I know its a somewhat difficult question to ask I am just trying to get as much information/facts as possible. Thanks in advance

 

Hi Gra

As Etown has stated, your situation is a unique one and I'm not sure I am the best to answer your questions, but I have been giving it some thought and here is what I think I would try based on what I know about Valium now, if I were in your shoes.

 

First of all if I understand correctly you are on three 10mg doses per day totaling 30mg in a 24 hour period.  You are experiencing what you believe to be tolerance w/d even at this dosage and are unsure how to proceed.

 

1.  I agree with Etown that a taper should probably be delayed until you can get to an 80/20 state of stability.  If you start cutting when you are already feeling badly, then you will likely continue to feel badly no matter how slowly you cut.

2.  To get to stability, it might be worth trying to cut your doses into more frequent ones to eliminate the possibility that you are experiencing inter-dose withdrawal instead of tolerance withdrawal.  Example: instead of three 10mg doses every 8 hours, you could try six 5mg doses every four hours and see if that gets you stable.  You might try this for at least a week maybe two in order to determine if it is effective.

3.  If spitting your dose into six does not get you stable in two weeks time, you may have to face the possibility that increasing your daily intake of valium by a few more milligrams may be necessary to get you stable.

4.  If neither of the two options above allow you to get stable, then it is possible you are in tolerance withdrawal.  If that is the case then you may need to just start cutting anyway.  I personally would try splitting into more frequent doses first before making that decision, though.

 

Good Luck

 

[[hu...]]

I have physical symptoms as well, but as someone who has been in chronic pain for years, I can deal with those. The anxiety though, that's rough.

 

I could have written that exact same sentence ... so interesting to hear someone else express that same sentiment!

[[...]]

e and others,

 

How long did you take to stabilize on Valium after the c/o and before you started tapering?

 

FYI, I'm at 3.5 weeks now and the trend in the last 1.5 weeks has clearly been positive. My night time anxiety levels have basically gone from "terrified" to just "scared."

 

Still, I don't feel that I'm close to 80/20 yet. My doc suggests that I can consider raising the valium dose. She's leaving that choice up to me. I'd like to avoid it if possible.

 

Thx, Human

 

Hi Human,

For me stabilization was pretty fast - I spent a couple of weeks transferring, then a week on just the valium before I started cutting.  I am a case of short term use at a fairly low dose so maybe some of the long term higher dose members will chime in.

 

Good thing is it does sound like things are getting better for you.  That is awesome!

[[dr...]]

I stabilized on valium very quickly.  I was suffering interdose and major withdrawals most of the time on Klonopin.  Valium was a relief.  I crossed over from .75K to 17mg of V and it took three weeks.  I waited one more week before starting my V taper.

[[Sm...]]

I have physical symptoms as well, but as someone who has been in chronic pain for years, I can deal with those. The anxiety though, that's rough.

 

I could have written that exact same sentence ... so interesting to hear someone else express that same sentiment!

 

yup. I'm there with you and E-Town. I'm truly 'not stable' when the anxiety is present.

Then it is a rollercoaster and there isn't 'stability'. I've fallen back into not stable for some reason :/ Perhaps because I tried reintroducing what I thought were innocuous supps like Fish oil. Nothing is innocuous when you aren't stable and other people have had problems with fish oil before so it isn't like I'm the first... sigghhh...

 

My main symptoms benzo standard are:

anxiety

extreme tightness in chest

tingling/energy in extremeties

headaches

nausea

feeling flushed/warm/tingly in face

and insomnia

 

Any sign of anxiety and I hold. I'm not super sure I know what my precursors to that are. This last bit on instability though was not through not noticing emerging symptoms but through them being masked: because the supps I was taking meant I was cutting ahead of my heal rate without feeling it.

 

[[jj...]]

drew, were you in tolerance w/d with k before you crossed over? Or did you decide that you needed to taper before having any w/d sx?

[[mr...]]

Anyone know when energy comes back?

My mom's energy level is like 10%.

Thru this whole tapering, I think her energy level has only gone up to 60% when she was on 6mg v.

It went down quickly, but I tapered her too quickly back then.

Should I hold until her energy comes back or is this something will come back when she heals?

 

[[or...]]

Thanks for sharing your symptoms, everyone. As I start up again on liquids, I will try very hard to keep the 80/20 rule in mind. I tend to minimize mental symptoms and concentrate on physical. I tell myself "Who the heck knows why you're anxious anyhow?? It might have been the phone bill you forgot to pay. Or the way the clerk looked at you in the bank lol". Maybe I ought to pay more attention to mental symptoms this time around. I know that the physical symptoms I will watch out for are:

 

- nausea OMG

- nerve pain at the site of my old injuries i.e. my 20 year old broken toe, my back surgery incision site, pain in my right eye due to major dry eye syndrome -- this only flares as a w/d symptom

- ear pressure and pain -- this in the past has preceded nausea

 

Right now I am 95-99% free of the above and want to establish this as my new "baseline". Thank you guys so much (eliz, DP, etown, Bart) for getting me out of the hell I was in.

 

human and anyone who wants to know . . . I took about (as I recall) 3 weeks to cross from Ativan to valium by using Ashton's schedule in her manual. It took me, once I was on an all-valium dose, about a week to stabilize as I wanted to get rid of the sedating falling-over-my-feet effects of valium. I was at 15 mg of valium. Then I started reducing. I dropped a mg every 2 weeks. It was OK until 5 mg. The drop from 5 to 4 was really stupid. Even though I'm bad at math, that was nuts. As were the previous 3 or 4 cuts which were way more than 10%. I do not suggest anyone go as fast as I did. I sure paid for it.

 

Okay, this is a new year and I'm out of the weeds, have found BB, and have a better attitude and far better prospects.

 

Onward.

 

Okatz

 

 

[[dr...]]

drew, were you in tolerance w/d with k before you crossed over? Or did you decide that you needed to taper before having any w/d sx?

 

JJ,

 

I didn't realize at the time, but before I started the taper I was suffering terrible anxiety, panic attacks, tremors, muscle pain, etc...you name it I had it.    I was eating 3mg of K per day and taking .5xanax a few times per week.  Add in Ambien for sleep.  I started at a much lower dose and was upped by my Dr. several times.  Yes I now know I was in tolerance withdrawal back then.

The nice thing is as I get lower in my dose(when I am not suffering from a reduction) I don't really get panic attacks and my anxiety is way less.  I origianlly went on these drugs twenty years ago for panic disorder.

The sad thing is that I knew I could handle life much better than in college but I was tapered or c/t'd twice in the last ten years.  I had what I now know is terrrible withdrawals but the doc said it was my panic/anxiety disorder returning.  I was reinstated on a higher dose.  I am a classic story of how an uneducated set of dr.s can make you think you need to be on a drug for the rest of your life.

I finally hit the point where I knew I couldn't take anymore of these drugs and they were stealing my life.  No doc told me that.  I just knew it was nothing else. 

Sorry...you got me going here.  LOL

 

Drew 

[[dr...]]

Yay Okatz!!!  Glad you're feeling so much better.

[[...]]

Wow thanks for the replies everyone, really appreciate it Updosing is not a option for me, my gp has made that perfectly clear, as for waiting it out and stabilizing that is not going to happen as I have been on this dose for around 2 years now, probably 10 times in each year on separate occasions I have used a extra tablet, maximum of 2, sorry I didn't make it very clear, so theoretically I should be stable by now? Sorry if that's not the case I am still educating myself.

 

Gp wants me to just carry on as I am or try a ssri but that is not not for me, I had a lot of very similar benzo withdrawal symptoms after my silly od which is the reason I am on them, I couldn't stay on a ad long enough to get a effect. The reason I think its tolerance is that I am not or feel stable and I am getting worse. As you state etown I have responsibilities so I can surmise if I stay as I am I will just end up in a worse position so the only option is to taper, just so torn to know the way forward. Unfortunately I have also gained quite bad ocd along the way so that includes me taking my tablets at the same time daily, silly I know but I can try to split into 6 doses its just how I proceed from there or proceed from where I am. Micro taper from 15mg seems unreal to me, these are serious drugs, you are right the tapering is hard to get my head around but will try, my gp said 1 mg a week but I know how I feel now so imagining reducing slightly I just cant get my head around it and as I am sure you all know taking the first step in the taper is pretty scary. I think I am just frightened to take the first step into the unknown and feeling worse, losing house, family etc etc. If I choose the 6 x daily taper how would some of you attack that taper, 5/10% over the 6 tablets by dry cutting each one, will have to try to work that out as they are 5mg tablets. I did ask about liquid valium but gp said it was something he had never heard of, he has other patients on v and when I asked my chances of getting off he said not good.

 

Sorry for the rant and will keep you posted on what I decide and thanks again for the reply's

[[mr...]]

Hi Gra,

I don't know if this is helpful but when I was tapering my mom .02 every 1-2 weeks, she just wasn't stabilizing.

However, once I started her on a daily taper, things started getting better faster.

 

I don't know if this is due to how many months have passed since swiching benzos or not.

I didn't expect her to get any improvements since daily taper moves u faster than cut and hold method, but she did pretty good.

She's at a sticky point right now and I will hold for a while until things get better.

 

 

[[jj...]]

drew, the funny thing is that even on the .5 mg dose that I was at I was starting to have w/d sx like occasional DR and brain zaps in the AM waking me up. At times I would get a strong zap in the middle of the day and this is after being on it for around four or five months. I would have had no idea what they were if I wouldn't have cold turkeyed, which was a very very bad idea. On the other hand, I was headed into w/d regardless and who knows how long it would have taken me to figure out was wrong and where I would have ended up. I shudder to think about having other psych meds piled on top of this mess. I'm sure most of us wished we would have found this site BEFORE tolerance or c/t snagged us! But regardless, we're here now and we can finally start healing instead of continuing to get sicker and sicker on these meds.

[[ge...]]

I have physical symptoms as well, but as someone who has been in chronic pain for years, I can deal with those. The anxiety though, that's rough.

 

I could have written that exact same sentence ... so interesting to hear someone else express that same sentiment!

 

Same thing with me.  I also deal with pain.  The anxiety however has been my worst and most overwhelming symptom (to quote Matt Samet, it's more along the lines of "mortal terror")...but it's getting much MUCH better under 1mg.  What helped me make progress with my taper in spite of this were fairly short but very frequent holds.  I've done this throughout my taper. 

 

gts

[[...]]

Anyone know when energy comes back?

My mom's energy level is like 10%.

Thru this whole tapering, I think her energy level has only gone up to 60% when she was on 6mg v.

It went down quickly, but I tapered her too quickly back then.

Should I hold until her energy comes back or is this something will come back when she heals?

 

Hi M,

My energy was very low on the K and early on when the V doses were much higher than they are now.  Since getting below 1mg my energy levels are much better during the day, but I still am pretty wiped out by the time I get home from work.  We are all so different, but as long as we are under the stress of cutting, I think all bets are off.

[[...]]

Thanks for sharing your symptoms, everyone. As I start up again on liquids, I will try very hard to keep the 80/20 rule in mind. I tend to minimize mental symptoms and concentrate on physical. I tell myself "Who the heck knows why you're anxious anyhow?? It might have been the phone bill you forgot to pay. Or the way the clerk looked at you in the bank lol". Maybe I ought to pay more attention to mental symptoms this time around. I know that the physical symptoms I will watch out for are:

 

- nausea OMG

- nerve pain at the site of my old injuries i.e. my 20 year old broken toe, my back surgery incision site, pain in my right eye due to major dry eye syndrome -- this only flares as a w/d symptom

- ear pressure and pain -- this in the past has preceded nausea

 

Right now I am 95-99% free of the above and want to establish this as my new "baseline". Thank you guys so much (eliz, DP, etown, Bart) for getting me out of the hell I was in.

 

human and anyone who wants to know . . . I took about (as I recall) 3 weeks to cross from Ativan to valium by using Ashton's schedule in her manual. It took me, once I was on an all-valium dose, about a week to stabilize as I wanted to get rid of the sedating falling-over-my-feet effects of valium. I was at 15 mg of valium. Then I started reducing. I dropped a mg every 2 weeks. It was OK until 5 mg. The drop from 5 to 4 was really stupid. Even though I'm bad at math, that was nuts. As were the previous 3 or 4 cuts which were way more than 10%. I do not suggest anyone go as fast as I did. I sure paid for it.

 

Okay, this is a new year and I'm out of the weeds, have found BB, and have a better attitude and far better prospects.

 

Onward.

 

Okatz

 

Okatz right on!

So happy I could be there for you and that you are out of the weeds!

[[ge...]]

Wow thanks for the replies everyone, really appreciate it Updosing is not a option for me, my gp has made that perfectly clear, as for waiting it out and stabilizing that is not going to happen as I have been on this dose for around 2 years now, probably 10 times in each year on separate occasions I have used a extra tablet, maximum of 2, sorry I didn't make it very clear, so theoretically I should be stable by now? Sorry if that's not the case I am still educating myself.

 

Gp wants me to just carry on as I am or try a ssri but that is not not for me, I had a lot of very similar benzo withdrawal symptoms after my silly od which is the reason I am on them, I couldn't stay on a ad long enough to get a effect. The reason I think its tolerance is that I am not or feel stable and I am getting worse. As you state etown I have responsibilities so I can surmise if I stay as I am I will just end up in a worse position so the only option is to taper, just so torn to know the way forward. Unfortunately I have also gained quite bad ocd along the way so that includes me taking my tablets at the same time daily, silly I know but I can try to split into 6 doses its just how I proceed from there or proceed from where I am. Micro taper from 15mg seems unreal to me, these are serious drugs, you are right the tapering is hard to get my head around but will try, my gp said 1 mg a week but I know how I feel now so imagining reducing slightly I just cant get my head around it and as I am sure you all know taking the first step in the taper is pretty scary. I think I am just frightened to take the first step into the unknown and feeling worse, losing house, family etc etc. If I choose the 6 x daily taper how would some of you attack that taper, 5/10% over the 6 tablets by dry cutting each one, will have to try to work that out as they are 5mg tablets. I did ask about liquid valium but gp said it was something he had never heard of, he has other patients on v and when I asked my chances of getting off he said not good.

 

Sorry for the rant and will keep you posted on what I decide and thanks again for the reply's

 

Gra, I microtapered from 20mgs - it was the only way I could manage to taper.  My attempt the previous year with cut and hold was BAD!  I was also in tolerance withdrawal.  I do believe that it is actually much harder to taper in tolerance w/d - trying to get off fast for me did not end well and I had to start all over again.  The slow micro tapering with short but frequent holds when symptoms ramped up has worked much better for me.

 

gts

[[Di...]]

Getting there slowly is under 1 mg.

 

There is the 5th!

 

YEE HA!!  I always wanted to be Posh Spice. 

[[Di...]]

Or maybe ....

Colorado Chick at .62, Diaz-Pam at .65, Eliz at .64 (and still holding) can be a trio of snails  :laugh:

 

As long as we don't try to race each other to the finish line I think we will be OK.

 

We just need to two more chicks and we can be the "Spice Girls".

 

Yo, I'll tell ya what I want, what I really, really want.... to be benzo freeeeeee..... ZIGAZIG AH!!!

 

Hilarious!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh

My mom is under 1mg currently holding at .82.

Can she be in on the spice girls?

 

Of course M - the more the merrier!

 

Let's say that anyone under 1mg can be a Spice Girl - even the boys..lol...

[[mr...]]

Or maybe ....

Colorado Chick at .62, Diaz-Pam at .65, Eliz at .64 (and still holding) can be a trio of snails  :laugh:

 

As long as we don't try to race each other to the finish line I think we will be OK.

 

We just need to two more chicks and we can be the "Spice Girls".

 

Yo, I'll tell ya what I want, what I really, really want.... to be benzo freeeeeee..... ZIGAZIG AH!!!

 

Hilarious!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh

My mom is under 1mg currently holding at .82.

Can she be in on the spice girls?

 

Of course M - the more the merrier!

 

Let's say that anyone under 1mg can be a Spice Girl - even the boys..lol...

LOL, but I have no desire to have a sex change....lol

[[et...]]

etown thanks for the 80/20 distinction. Something to think about.

 

If I can ask, what are your physical symptoms?

 

Okatz and all

Wow this thread is steamin'

I made an excel spreadsheet with all symptoms mental and physical and rate on a scale of 0-10 and I fill it out each day after work and my wife reads it before we even talk so she knows where i'm at for the day and how to approach me. 0,1 and 2's I can live with. 3 and up for over 3 consecutive days an adjustment is necessary for me

 

Physical Symptoms=

Tired,

Dizzy (I see this as both and is my worst so I keep a close eye on dizziness)

Buzzing body

eyes hurt

headache

head fullness

nausea

insomnia ( I see this as both too and watch carefully)

bowel problems

neckache

backache

hot

cold

photosensitive

gait (walk funny, balance)

weakness

ear ringing

tremour ( I see this as both too and everything stops dead if this happens)

weight loss

prostate problems or problems pee peeing)

clearing my throat or over sensitive gag reflex

 

Mental=

Fear

agitation

dizzy

frustration

apathy

buzzing body

emotional

insomnia

brain fog

anger

rage

intrusive thinking

restless

tremour

lonely

false beliefs

unhappy

memory loss

Hope this helps sorry it took so long I had no access to my computer today at work.

etown

[[et...]]

e and others,

 

How long did you take to stabilize on Valium after the c/o and before you started tapering?

 

FYI, I'm at 3.5 weeks now and the trend in the last 1.5 weeks has clearly been positive. My night time anxiety levels have basically gone from "terrified" to just "scared."

 

Still, I don't feel that I'm close to 80/20 yet. My doc suggests that I can consider raising the valium dose. She's leaving that choice up to me. I'd like to avoid it if possible.

 

 

 

Thx, Human

 

I crossed over and stabilized within a month and began tapering right away

etown

[[Di...]]

Anyone know when energy comes back?

My mom's energy level is like 10%.

Thru this whole tapering, I think her energy level has only gone up to 60% when she was on 6mg v.

It went down quickly, but I tapered her too quickly back then.

Should I hold until her energy comes back or is this something will come back when she heals?

 

 

I'm not sure. My energy levels are not what they used to be, but I have to consider whether that is benzo related, or whether it is age/menopause related, or whether I've just become plain lazy.

 

I used to have energy to burn. I used to go to the gym and it would be nothing for me to walk for an hour everyday. I would also spend hours making my house sparkle. Now a 30 minute walk is all I can manage, and I have to split housework jobs into separate days because I can't do the lot in one go.

 

Like I said, I have no idea if this is related to benzos though. I suspect it's just that I've gotten really lazy.