Sometimes Faster is BETTER

[[Ch...]]

Elwood, you are too silly. 

 

At 2 months off I am finding my silly again.  It is so nice to have it back.

 

For all of you who feel dragging this out is right for you I support you in this decision.  But I for one am glad to have this poison out of my system and to feel healing happening. 

 

Thank you ((((Marina)))) for validating my experience.

 

Hugs

 

China

[[...]]

Bart, while no doubt there is a reason, there is a cause to all effects, it doesn't mean it's the hypothesis you've put forward. I don't know why either. What I do know is that I've seen others speed it up, doing much bigger cuts than I ever would and faster after a miserably slow and miserable time at turtle tapering and they are reporting the same benefits, starting to be able to live again, feeling better after cuts and symptoms seeming to diminish in severity. NOT because they were part of the 50% that is fine fast tapering but because they' played out all their other options and just wanted off and voila, good times!

 

Now i am nothing if not a scientist (NOT, I'm a jazz musician, but we are a logical bunch), me standing alone blowing my little horn isn't really the purpose of anything and like I said I'm not trying to make a case... or maybe I am... or maybe I want to learn more myself. Anyhow, if you're doing this, speeding up because you got tired of crying the blues in a turtle taper and it's working for you, please, speak up. Anyone, if you know of these people, please direct them here and let's see if we can't shed some new light on this.

 

Hello Marina. In the absence of other theories I tend to go with the most likely theory.  Of course I would be interested to see any other theories.  Until other theories present themselves then toxicity to benzos seems a reasonable explanation. 

 

Toxicity to benzos occurs in migraine clinics (where a patient may develop migraine due to taking benzos and then have to wean off the benzos but do it slowly).  Similarly, toxicity to benzos can sometimes occur in patients with clinical delirium (the same weaning considerations apply).  The drug monograph for each benzo lists a large number of adverse (toxic) effects of taking the drug.  Such adverse effects usually disappear when the drug is reduced or discontinued.

 

Coming off the benzo is another matter altogether.  The existence of this forum is testament to how difficult that can sometimes be!  You seem to have managed to come off the benzos rather well, just like the majority of the population and they don't visit here.

 

Braban

Ya, I think you've got it right on this one. If this was a phase I or II drug trial that I was referreeing, I would have pulled her out and listed her as an adverse reaction. Occam's razor.

Bart

[[Zi...]]

Of course I would be interested to see any other theories.  Until other theories present themselves then toxicity to benzos seems a reasonable explanation. 

 

How about the simplest and most logical explanation - that Marina healed faster by cutting faster?

 

The toxicity to benzo theory is a stretch. The very antithesis of Occam's razor.

[[Br...]]

Of course I would be interested to see any other theories.  Until other theories present themselves then toxicity to benzos seems a reasonable explanation. 

 

How about the simplest and most logical explanation - that Marina healed faster by cutting faster?

 

The toxicity to benzo theory is a stretch. The very antithesis of Occam's razor.

 

Hello ZigZag. Occams razor states that "among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected."

 

Could you explain in a bit more detail your hypothesis that Marina healed faster by cutting faster.  It appears to contradict the experience of hundreds if not thousands of posters on this site.  Do you know of any research studies which support it?

 

I have to say that yours is such a counter-intuitive hypothesis that I'm not persuaded it is more likely than the assumption that a person such as Marina was suffering from known adverse effects of a drug.  In addition Marina may have been in the majority of the population who have only minor difficulty in stopping benzos.

[[el...]]

People's chemistries are different due to genetic and environmental issues.  One size does not fit all.  Every doctor will tell you that and we all know it.

 

I think the discussions going on here are a bunch of people trying to prove their schmart.  But, hey, what do  I know?

[[Ma...]]

THe most logical theory? It's the only one out there. It's winning by default. THat's not an argument and the point was already made. It might be true but I don't rule out tolerance and the possibility of a window because you can't, in which case everyone here turtle tapering in pain is either toxic or in tolerance because i'll tell you, I did it once and had a marvelous life while doing it. Yes I felt withdrawal, but I was out and dancing and drinking margaritas with no ill effect (had a reaction to a birth control pill or I would have been off years ago). Could take drugs if need be and supplements, was almost normal. So, turtle tapers can work. If you're not stable, it's not working. I never sought out the help of a support group while it was working, didn't need one, so if you're reading this chances are it's not going that well. Maybe this would be better, maybe not, maybe some people just suffer coming off and it doesn't much matter what they do I don't know, but lets keep the focus on looking for alternatives rather than ways to tear down something different in defence of a norm that really is serving almost no one.

 

Forgive me, but now I must speak plainly: Speak all you like about your own experience but here i say respectfully, lay off mine Braban. Or read some of the posts I've written before you make assumptions as it's all there. I won't presume to tell your story if you won't presume to tell mine. Peace out.

 

I can only do so much to try and maintain the integrity of this thread. It obviously matters to me. Please consider that I'm a fellow traveller with my own healing to attend to just trying to open a window.

 

That said, I guess I'm done.

I hope something has been of service but honestly, this has become exhausting. No hard feelings.

 

Be well everyone, all the best of luck

I don't believe in thinking about symptoms, it's a choice, and I'm not playing sicker than though, but if I listed what I go through on a daily basis, you'd know I wasn't one of those lucky people that can come off no prob. Far from it.

m

 

Verti, ps I had terrible Vertigo for a while when coming off really fast in detox, it went away as I cut. Seriously I would hit the ground. Maybe I was just lucky that it went away. It gets me still but it's by far the most fun of all the symptoms. I just do what I always have done, in my mind I throw up my arms and think "weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee". xx

 

[[Ma...]]

Yeah Elwood, Schmart is right. Too funny. I'm so done. Happy trails ya'll.

 

Braban seriously, go back and read the thread or mince me up and feed me to the dogs/bears/owls/swim me with the fishes. i'm in a mood. I have nothing to prove, I don't have to defend didlly and no, I'm not that shmart. Too bad. I might still be able to make a living. Jazz musicians. Too bad I was in it for the money. Kidding.

m

 

 

[[Di...]]

I'll just make a point here, that may or may not be relevant. Obviously, there is a lot of discussion here about whether fast is better than slow.

 

Whatever. We can all talk and argue until we are blue in the face, but no one has the definitive answer to that because there is none. Everyone is so different, and everyone should do their own thing. Hopefully that issue can be put to rest without more derogative comments being made.

 

However, the point I want to make is that a lot of people seem to be making the assumption (or perhaps I'm imagining the assumption) that just because someone is doing a daily taper they are automatically doing a "turtle taper".

 

Not so. All it means is that they are dividing their cut amount into daily portions instead of doing it all in one go on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. The end result is often the same amount, just done in a more gradual way because they find their body adapts to the daily cuts more easily than doing one larger cut less often. My cuts work out to be about 10% every 2 weeks.

 

That's not to say that daily cutting isn't a slower method. Maybe for some people it is, but for other people it isn't.

 

Incidentally, "turtle taper" is often a term used with the same intent as "cut and suffer" which a lot of people complained about, and it is now frowned upon. Maybe slow taperers could get the same consideration, and not have these kinds of labels used about their taper of choice. Just something for everyone to consider when deciding what the appropriate way is of treating other people and their choices.

 

[[un...]]

Mostly, this thread is exhilarating, encouraging and cathartic for me. It sounds as though it may be for many here, as well. You are all venting pent up frustrations that need purging. Just don't make personal attacks or take anything in too personally is my suggestion.

 

Calling people out by name, quoting them to prove your attack on them is justified, even using terms like 'you' as in finger-pointing instead of 'I' statements leads to escalating emotions including one's own. And that is dangerous to the survival of especially lively and valuable threads like this one and, more importantly, to each of our recoveries.

 

I can't wait to get home these days and catch up on this thread. It's moving almost faster than I can keep up with but I am still on track.

 

One thing has come clear to me: there are indeed many "shmarties" on this thread. It comes through most when you're speaking with passion from the heart rather than necessarily using the 'proper' and polite tone. But again, there's passionate venting and then there's spewing vitriol at one another.

 

Ok. Enough with the refereeing already. I think it's a tribute to all of you on this thread that I feel I can offer up an "unsay-able" tactic I've used that I've felt I'd better keep to myself until now:

I am dry-cutting valium. When I get that inevitable 'hit' after a cut at day four or six or whenever, I've been popping a tiny crumb, some fraction of a milligram so small that I never learned to work with that many zeros after a decimal point and, voila, the next day I'm more stable. I've only needed to do this once, maybe twice, a cut so far and it has been helpful to me. Is that so wrongg??

 

I will also say that, encouraged by this thread as well as by the same, tedious symptoms I've been having every day for weeks, I decided to make a fairly large cut, (for me,) starting the 26th, Tuesday of this week. Today is day four at 6.25, cut from 7.50 Val. I can report that I have indeed felt better the last coupla days, today especially. I don't quite feel up to chopping down any trees but have seen improvement in sleep regulation, energy and mood/outlook.

 

I know well, however, that I could be in for a slam tomorrow, the next day or next week. If so, I will be using my 'transition crumbs' until stable. I will keep you all updated on how this works out--it's a rather bold and maybe dangerous move on my part as I have been creeping along since hitting the 10 mg mark, feeling lousy with no sense of progress. I am excited again about actually getting to zero someday. Wish me luck.

 

Thanks for listening and remember: Fight fair and don't get hurt or hurt others. We're all in this together whether we like it or not!    --utc

 

   

 

   

 

[[...]]

Hey Under- so you're at the benzo confessional, huh?

I've also taken small one time extra doses here and there throughout my entire taper without apparent problems and some benefit. I discovered this some time ago accidentally when I was on a few milligrams of Valium in my taper and had an attack of akathisia. If you don't know what akathisia is you can Google it, but I can assure you, it is it's own special kind of hell.

I used to get these attacks as a side effect from heart meds I was on. Typically, I would wind up in the ER if the attack persisted. I was actually put on benzos for this reason after my fifth trip to the ER. For this particular attack I was at a post-graduation party at my university and decided to just go home and be my own doctor. I took a few milligrams at a time and ended up taking a total of 11 milligrams that night to break it. I had no idea what to do with my Valium taper the next day as it was shot to s*** so I just went back to my usual dose and cut. Lo and behold, I felt fine and was able to keep going with the taper as if nothing happened. Since then, when I've had bad days and even when I feel fine but have to do something particularly stressful I just take a  one time little updose. The updosing has progressively declined in frequency and amount during my taper. My last updose was a few weeks ago and the amounts of my last few updoses were .0025mg. Earlier in my taper the updoses were bigger but far less than the 11 milligrams when I made my accidental "discovery". I seem to have a very short lag time and duration of action time for Valium which is probably why I can get away with this. I certainly don't recommend this for everybody, but it's just something I do. I've heard from a few other people who seem to be able to get away with a little extra drug on occasion. There are probably others who just keep their mouths shut. If I had not accidentally discovered this  I wouldn't have tried it as it can really mess up a taper and get you stuck back on a higher dose. So Under, consider yourself lucky. This is going to make your taper easier. Maybe there are fewer rules and more individual variation in this benzo withdrawal business than we thought. Also, sometimes I think the more I know about this subject the less I really do know. This is how science tends to work. The more you know about  something the more you know how much you don't know about it.

 

Anyone else out there break the "rules" and discover something interesting? I'd like to hear from you. As far as the tone of this thread goes, I don't care. I'm mostly just here for an exchange  of information and prefer to get my emotional support and cuddling from real live people. Some people are easily offended on this site, so I try to keep it polite.

Bart

 

[[Di...]]

Hey underthecovers and bart

 

As they say, "whatever gets you through the night". I've always said that the only "right" taper is the one where your dose is decreasing at a steady rate and giving you manageable s/x - manageable being whatever you classify as being manageable. What I call manageable may be intolerable to someone else, and vice versa.

 

I don't have any tapering "rules", because I don't believe in rules when it comes to tapering. I just do what I do to suit me, and to hell with anyone else's opinion. There have been a couple of occasions where I have accidentally up-dosed or down-dosed, and despite my initial panic, the sky hasn't fallen in, so I figure why sweat the small stuff. It is what it is.

 

I'm getting a bit tired of tapering being classified as either "fast" or "slow" anyway. It's all just tapering, and each person decides for themselves how they want to do it. So, just do it.... and don't give a tuppenny damn what anyone else thinks about it, whether they approve or not, or whether they tell you you're breaking some kind of tapering "rule". They can keep to the “rules” if they want to, but don’t inflict “rules” on anyone else.

 

[[Ki...]]

Hey underthecovers and bart

 

As they say, "whatever gets you through the night". I've always said that the only "right" taper is the one where your dose is decreasing at a steady rate and giving you manageable s/x - manageable being whatever you classify as being manageable. What I call manageable may be intolerable to someone else, and vice versa.

 

I don't have any tapering "rules", because I don't believe in rules when it comes to tapering. I just do what I do to suit me, and to hell with anyone else's opinion. There have been a couple of occasions where I have accidentally up-dosed or down-dosed, and despite my initial panic, the sky hasn't fallen in, so I figure why sweat the small stuff. It is what it is.

 

I'm getting a bit tired of tapering being classified as either "fast" or "slow" anyway. It's all just tapering, and each person decides for themselves how they want to do it. So, just do it.... and don't give a tuppenny damn what anyone else thinks about it, whether they approve or not, or whether they tell you you're breaking some kind of tapering "rule". They can keep to the “rules” if they want to, but don’t inflict “rules” on anyone else.

 

     

[[Di...]]

Hey underthecovers and bart

 

As they say, "whatever gets you through the night". I've always said that the only "right" taper is the one where your dose is decreasing at a steady rate and giving you manageable s/x - manageable being whatever you classify as being manageable. What I call manageable may be intolerable to someone else, and vice versa.

 

I don't have any tapering "rules", because I don't believe in rules when it comes to tapering. I just do what I do to suit me, and to hell with anyone else's opinion. There have been a couple of occasions where I have accidentally up-dosed or down-dosed, and despite my initial panic, the sky hasn't fallen in, so I figure why sweat the small stuff. It is what it is.

 

I'm getting a bit tired of tapering being classified as either "fast" or "slow" anyway. It's all just tapering, and each person decides for themselves how they want to do it. So, just do it.... and don't give a tuppenny damn what anyone else thinks about it, whether they approve or not, or whether they tell you you're breaking some kind of tapering "rule". They can keep to the “rules” if they want to, but don’t inflict “rules” on anyone else.

 

     

 

   

[[Ma...]]

I'm all for live and let live just not right now as we're talking about tapering faster and while yes it is all tapering, I know of someone on 1mg of Valium suffering terribly and it's going to take them a year to come off and everyone around this person is just saying awwww and I bite my tongue because if I don't, I'll get my wrists slapped. Rescue doses, know someone who used them through her taper, worked fine for her. I just wish people suffering going very slowly didn't feel they had to go even more so. That just doesn't seem to work.

Well, I've said all I have to say.

Good luck everyone.

m

 

[[Lu...]]

I'm all for live and let live just not right now as we're talking about tapering faster and while yes it is all tapering, I know of someone on 1mg of Valium suffering terribly and it's going to take them a year to come off and everyone around this person is just saying awwww and I bite my tongue because if I don't, I'll get my wrists slapped. Rescue doses, know someone who used them through her taper, worked fine for her. I just wish people suffering going very slowly didn't feel they had to go even more so. That just doesn't seem to work.

Well, I've said all I have to say.

Good luck everyone.

m

 

Marina and everyone

Benzo Confessional  - I like that.

Not now.

 

The people you speak of that you feel are suffering are those that may or are "off".  If not this obsession it would be another drug or "hobby". Self destructive nonetheless. Attention seekers yes.

 

This is a true mental illness. 

The sufferer: this might include faking or exaggerating illness, playing on an injury, or perhaps causing or inviting injury. (Watch the Bachelor anyone?).

The length of this illness and obsession with tapering, symptoms can be mistaken for this if one is constantly seeking attention or assistance.  Elderly after the shock of losing a spouse or hospital stay or when alone “warehoused” in a care facility can easily develop a mild case of this and if not caught early, may worsen.  Keep your elders close to you and don’t let them slip away by leaving them alone.  We will be old one day. 

Severe cases may meet the diagnostic criteria for Munchausen Syndrome (or Factitious Disorder). The illness or injury becomes a vehicle for gaining sympathy and thus attention. Alcoholics are notorious for this through their addiction and co-morbidity.  The attention-seeker manipulates people through their emotions, especially that of guilt. It's difficult not to feel sorry for someone who tells a believable story of suffering or "poor me".  It is also easy to not recognize this and be harsh on those that truly are ill and need assistance.  Fear may contribute to what many feel are unusually drawn out tapers.  This is a sign of a problem and Addiction Specialists look for this.

A highly general statement as there are many variations, but here are what I believe to be the most prominent.

There are “Accidental Addicts” who don’t have an underlying issue.  They will “magically” become will after this as the drugs made them unstable.  After questioning their sanity, they woke up and on the road to recovery.  The trigger or stress causing the initial anxiety or reason to start this drug is gone.  The nature of action of this drug is very appealing.  You really do “chill” out. Too bad it is short lived and you become addicted.  Better to chill with a Brownie.  In the movies when stressed everyone would reach for a cigarette or a drink.  In the 60’s it was “smoke a joint”.  Later (Annie Hall for instance), it was “I need a Valium”. In the 90’s it was “Take a Perc”.  Don’t know what it is today.  “Need some meth”?  Can’t imagine why anyone would want to be wired?  This wired is too much already.  Life is “wired”.  We need to learn how to chill.   

 

There are those that are here tapering and have an underlying issue and are in denial.  They believe, once off their troubles will be over.  For them, and for “insurance” the Accidental Addict, perhaps some life skills would be of benefit post withdrawal.

 

And the Sufferer.  Those that will continue on medication and seek attention.  That, Marina is what it is....

 

Narcissism - the disorder. The need for attention is paramount to this person. He or she will do anything to obtain that attention.

 

What I write is extreme.  Everyone has "quirks". It is when they turn to extreme, the person needs help.

 

This make sense?  I guess my previous posts got lost in the heat.  Oh well. I felt good offering my opinion if not for own consumption. 

 

underthecovers - well said.  You could pass as a Canadian with your diplomacy. Must be the B.C. seed....

 

Diaz-Pam

 

Peace

 

Oh and day 4 of my last experimental drop....Got hit hard. Slower is better....for me. 

[[Zi...]]

Lunaticus,

 

I never got the impression that people on a slow taper are self destructive or seeking attention. I think everyone is trying to minimize their pain in their own chosen way.

 

Because benzo withdrawal has not been studied by science, we lay people are on our own without any good guidance. It is natural to see a lot of experimentation, speculation, and even incorrect information. In that environment we all pays our money and makes our choice. None of us knows what is "right" or what is "wrong."

 

Zig

[[Lu...]]

Didn't imply that.

We are the experts. We find our way by trial and error.  That is when we know right from wrong as when we are wrong, or push too hard the Benzo Dog bites. True for the "toxic" like myself. All balance.  Experiment is over.  I will push at a rate that is comfortable.  I was merely stating the point that there are some, possibly here, but we all know someone, who exhibts these personality traits for one reason or another.  We are complex. I usually call these personality "quirks" as per my Mental Health post in Off Topic. When it is harmful to the person and those around them, it is a problem and needs to be addressed.  I gave the example as an extreme that can be found here through obsession (form of OCD) or attention seeking.

 

It's a ball of confusion.

 

[[Br...]]

Anyone else out there break the "rules" and discover something interesting? I'd like to hear from you. As far as the tone of this thread goes, I don't care. I'm mostly just here for an exchange  of information and prefer to get my emotional support and cuddling from real live people. Some people are easily offended on this site, so I try to keep it polite.

 

Hi Bart.  One observation I would make is that there are occasional reports from people following a cut-and-hold method that they feel better in the days immediately after their cut.  I have heard this even from people who go on to get withdrawal effects a few days later.

 

Also people following a daily taper seem to report this quite often.  One can see this in posts on Jana's BenzoMicrotaper forum.

 

Of course there are many factors which could cause a temporary improvement (including a placebo response) but I wonder if there is any basis for these reports? 

 

One guess might be that in these people a benzo deficiency triggers a temporary favorable shift in the person's homeostasis.  However this does seem to have a slight air of wishful thinking or confirmation bias about it.

[[Br...]]

Braban seriously, go back and read the thread or mince me up and feed me to the dogs/bears/owls/swim me with the fishes. i'm in a mood. I have nothing to prove, I don't have to defend didlly and no, I'm not that shmart. Too bad. I might still be able to make a living. Jazz musicians. Too bad I was in it for the money. Kidding.

 

Hello Marina.  I do hope I haven't given you the impression that I thought you have a dead easy time tapering.  I am aware you did have to work hard and push thru some tough symptoms.  I don't think I made that clear in one of my posts.

 

On the other hand, you DID manage to get thru those bad times and that shows it was possible for you even though it was difficult. Several posters to this thread say it would not have been possible for them and I include myself in this group.

 

Apologies if any misunderstanding may have caused you upset.  It was not my intention.

[[Lu...]]

Hi all. I stumbled upon this video of a brave young man, who tells it like it is. Good for newbies and for reinforcement or to dispel any misconceptions.  Easy to watch and he rambles.  If you don't want to watch all 37 minutes, watch the beginning for about 10 minutes and from 20min to the end for sure.  You can see the transition from Part 1 and his conclusion if interested.

 

Start with Part 1 for background if you wish or just go to the second link below.

History Part 1:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlA-qMeyJFw

 

This is his update 3 years later. After listening to how he started, you can cut and view this. Whatever your current level of knowledge is. It is good to know what we can expect. It is all different, but it is positive.  And he does address underlying issues in the first 5 minutes of the first video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_47hFHXC34

 

It's like Benzo withdrawal for dummies, and if I wasn't going through this and knowing everyone here, I don't know if I could believe what we go through and how he describes it.

 

This is his journey and he does state everyone is different. Symptoms etc. Repeatedly. He runs the gambit of all the self-doubt, pre-existing conditions, anxiety, friends, fear, and empathy.  I only watched a few videos on this but this really stood out.  I am not one to watch videos of suffering but this is positive.  Don't need to spend all day watching videos, must get up and do what we can.  I can relate as a fellow rambler. It does get better!

 

In closing he mentions others who tell their stories on video that may resonate with you personally.

 

So it is not about fast or slow. It is what works for you. 

 

If you watch any of the other videos he suggests of others and find them useful, write down the timeline to watch so we can watch an "edited" version.

 

 

[[Di...]]

Hi Lunaticus

 

You make some very interesting points. Why do some people need to do a painfully slow taper from such a low dose like 1mg? Are they really suffering from benzo w/d, or are they suffering from something else? Is there attention seeking at play?  Possibly, and in some people's cases, probably.

 

Also, the other factor that needs to be taken into account (and one that I tried to constantly make on another now closed thread) is why did someone go onto a benzo in the first place? We all had an initial reason, but the benzo didn't cure anything. All it did was mask the symptoms. Just because we've decided we don't want to take it anymore, doesn't mean that the initial cause isn't still there. Maybe the initial cause is the real problem, but the benzo taker doesn’t want to admit it because it would mean they can’t just blame benzos for everything. Maybe they don’t want to admit that they have to start doing something about learning other coping skills, or maybe they need to admit they do need to be on some kind of medication. Not all medication is bad.

 

Perhaps instead of implying, as some people have, that these people are “worshipping” or having a "romance" with the benzo, there needs to be more understanding of what is really going on, what that initial problem was, or why that person is attention seeking. Of course it’s not for us to find those answers, because we aren't doctors, but perhaps more understanding is required from us, rather than automatically weighing in with judgmental comments.

 

Now before someone comes along and takes anything I've said out of context (which I'm sure will happen) I am in NO WAY saying that these are the problems experienced by anyone on a very tiny dose and needing to do a painfully slow taper, but these points do need to be factored in for some people.

 

[[Lu...]]

Diaz-Pam

Now before someone comes along and takes anything I've said out of context (which I'm sure will happen) I am in NO WAY saying that these are the problems experienced by anyone on a very tiny dose and needing to do a painfully slow taper, but these points do need to be factored in for some people.

 

This won't happen.  You are responding to what I wrote.  I don't see anyone disputing this or agreeing other than you.

 

Thank you for the validation. 

 

If we truly have a mental illness, we would deny it, not listen or be able to reason and continue living thinking everyone else has a problem.  Or are they normal and we have the problem?  I know this as I have had to deal a with personality disorder in my family.  Dismissive, bullying, challenging, lack of self esteem, and covering for insecurities.  No drug addiction. Won’t take a drug as there is no problem.  Like Charlie S he is “winning” in his own mind and on his own drug that would kill us.  Over the years, the condition is worsening.  Won’t get help as there is no problem.  We are the ones that get sick from dealing with them. 

So on this thread and elsewhere on the BB, maybe it is best to assume we are all “normal”.  Those that seek attention can post all over the BB as I am certain we have seen.  They will get attention.  I am guilty of posting what I believe relevant, but so does the attention seeker. Does that make me crazy?  But back to the point.  Those that continue on and on, do have a problem.  Dog chasing the tail. 

 

This video is helpful with a lot of our thoughts.

I stumbled upon this video of a former Benzo addict who tells it like it is.  Amazing how this generation speaks up and posts it for the world to see. That is commendable.

Good for newbies and for reinforcement or to dispel any misconceptions. Easy to watch and he rambles. If you don't want to watch all 37 minutes, watch the beginning for about 10 minutes and from 20min to the end of the second link for sure. You can see the transition from Part 1 and his conclusion if interested.  In the first video he gives reason for beginning these meds. Anxiety.

 

Start with Part 1 for background if you wish or just go to the second link below.

History Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlA-qMeyJFw

 

This is his update 3 years later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_47hFHXC34

 

If I wasn't going through this and knowing everyone here, I don't know if I could believe what we go through and how he describes it.

 

This is his journey and he does state everyone is different. Repeatedly. He runs the gambit of all the self-doubt, pre-existing conditions, anxiety, friends, fear, and empathy. I only watched a few videos on this but this really stood out. I am not one to watch videos of suffering but this is positive. Don't need to watch this stuff all day. Best to taper and start living. So genuine, and I can relate as a rambler. It does get better!

 

In closing he mentions others who tell their stories on video that may resonate with you personally. So sincere. If you watch any of the other videos he suggests of others and find them useful, write down the timeline to watch so we can watch an "edited" version.

 

Maybe for another post another day.  I don't spend much time watching videos about this as I am well on my way as you are. But some may need this. It is a good starter video and one for those who doubt themselves or their mental state as he describes.

 

 

[[Zi...]]

Rescue doses, know someone who used them through her taper, worked fine for her.

 

Marina,

 

I asked about rescue doses on a thread I started and got no information. The thread quickly died.

 

What is the amount of a rescue dose? Should it be an extra dose of whatever the current dose is?

 

Zig

 

 

[[Di...]]

Oh trust me Luna, there are people who just LOVE to take small portions of posts and quote them out of context. It's happened on numerous occasions to me, from one person in particular.

 

Anyway, like you, I have had to deal with I guess what could be called a "personality disorder" in my family, although it has never been an officially diagnosed disorder. For my entire life my mother has been a negative, controlling, self absorbed, bullying, manipulative attention seeker. Is that a mental illness, a personality disorder, or is it just the way she is? I guess it's a fine line. She is now 84 and on a cocktail of meds, including benzos and ADS, but they can't be blamed for her "issues". She was like that when I was a child, and she definitely wasn't on any meds back then. Maybe she should have been. 

 

I can't tell you how many similarities I see between her personality type and the personalities displayed by some people on BB. It's almost eerie. Sometimes the words I'm seeing written on the screen could be coming out of her mouth. If you try to be straight with these people, other people will respond with shock and tell you you're going to send them "over the edge". 

 

I really don't know how to deal with people like this because they need help far greater than what I can give them. I do know how to deal with my mother, because I've had years of experience. You have to stand up to her and not take the crap she dishes out, but do you deal with other people the same way?

 

The one thing I do know is if they don't do something about it while they are relatively young, they will end up bitter and lonely just like my mother, because no one will want to have anything to do with them. At the age of 54 I still have to deal with the guilt tactics if I don't drop everything and visit her every day. Just yesterday she was on the phone using her manipulative tactics because I wasn't coming to visit, even though I had been there the day before doing her shopping and cleaning for her.

 

Anyway, what is all this saying? I'm not sure, but maybe what we are seeing with some people really has nothing to do with benzo use. Maybe it's just their personality, or maybe it's an underlying issue of some other kind.

 

**edited for typo**

 

[[Wi...]]

I think what has bothered me since the introduction of this post is the implication that the concept of faster is better is new, like it's some undiscovered method that we all should consider.  I think, on one hand, this post has done a service to those who are new to this process and believe that if they are having challenges w/d'ing off of benzos that they are "doomed" to have to taper like those of us who are having an exceedingly rough time.  That's not necessarily true, as witnessed by the spectrum of how people have and continue to get off this drug.  There are a majority of people who have no problem w/d'ing.  There are also those who have more of a challenge then they could possibly ever conceived.  And then there are those at every point in between.  But for those of us who have tried every conceivable way to w/d, faster is by no means a new concept, simply a concept that has been tried and rejected by many.

 

If you find that tapering faster than the suggestions you've found here, works for you, then by all means taper as you need too.  However, for a large majority of us, that is simply not feesible.  During my time here I've met people who have survived some of life's worst traumas, losing loved ones including children, surviving single or multiple bouts of cancer, etc and who have had the strength to move beyond these traumas and go on with life.  These are the same people who have been cut down by trying to get off this drug.

 

While we all share in the fact that we are trying to get off this drug, for many, that's where the shared experience stops.  Marina, where you found your taper difficult but doable, at the same pace, many others find it intolerable. That doesn't say anything about you or them except that we are simply different.  This is not a matter of willpower or strength or charachter.  It is simply a matter of physiology and luck. 

 

WWWI