Sometimes Faster is BETTER

[[je...]]

Wow Jess, that's so wonderful, you really do sound great, you do, I'm so happy for you!!

 

Funny, I said I was never coming back but I had a personal message and I'll admit I was curious and I want to thank you all cause I learned something: If you look at all my posts, I never ever attacked anyone else, or belittled, well, there is the one item about someone taking a year to get off 1mg of Valium but I don't think that was belittling, I just felt the poor thing wasn't being offered an alternative. There are some pretty smart cookies who took a big bite out of me who really are I know able to know better, so it only shows me how slanted our perspectives can all get when we need or want to see something. I will get attacked for this, that's ok, I don't care, that's the only explanation I can come up with, and even if it's wrong it has put me on the alert for the times I hope I can catch myself in the future doing just that, so that's a bonus. My intention was only to show that wow oh wow, there can be another way, but I see that that is futile, which is also really interesting don't you think? I never said anyone had to totally embrace my thoughts or path or anything like that, I just tried with increasing difficulty to get a point across and couldn't because apparently it just "isn't possible". Interesting. I was insulted and took it personally where there really was no need.

 

Ok then. I'm not gloating. I'm not hating and sadly I'm likely as "grown up" as I'm ever going to be.

I'm just going to get on with my life now.

m

 

Marina,

  I feel so much better than I have in a while.  I just think it is sad when people are spending vast amounts of time (which none of us have, after all life is short) on getting off a tiny amount in order to avoid having ANY sxs at all.  I accepted that I would have sxs and that was just the way it was.  I remember when I CT that klonopin and I was like a week in... hallucinations etc.. and I woke up and thought "yay my heart isnt racing too terrible" and I went to get out of bed and both my legs were numb.  It sucked... but, it went away and I have never taken a klonopin again. 

    So, maybe it is just a difference in personality type?  I am a pretty hard-core take it as it comes kind of person my nature.  Sounds like you are as well.  I am glad your doing well and I will let you know when I jump off the last of this xanax. 

                                        Jess

P.S.  I have been around on/off for a while.  This is an arguement that will never be put to rest....lol

[[ja...]]

Ive been reading this thread on and off and honestly there is no need at all to put down anothers path in how they choose to come off this med. For me the only thing about someone speeding up there taper is severity of sxs. If there having a smoother go at it then I think keep it up. Your going to be ok..

 

Some have a harder time and a more severe experience . I have no idea why. I do know that no matter how you decide to come off is completly personal and should be respected. No matter what.

 

I did a C/T and it wasnt good. I shocked my brain so badly and life was becoming the most hardest thing for me to do. But even being as shocked to my brain and system and having so many sxs for so long I Healed. We all do. We just need to be so supportive and so understanding .Noone knows what we go through but US...

 

Lets keep it Real...

~Jenny

[[je...]]

Ive been reading this thread on and off and honestly there is no need at all to put down anothers path in how they choose to come off this med. For me the only thing about someone speeding up there taper is severity of sxs. If there having a smoother go at it then I think keep it up. Your going to be ok..

 

Some have a harder time and a more severe experience . I have no idea why. I do know that no matter how you decide to come off is completly personal and should be respected. No matter what.

 

I did a C/T and it wasnt good. I shocked my brain so badly and life was becoming the most hardest thing for me to do. But even being as shocked to my brain and system and having so many sxs for so long I Healed. We all do. We just need to be so supportive and so understanding .Noone knows what we go through but US...

Lets keep it Real...

~Jenny

 

I agree with that very much.  No matter what anyone decides to do they should recieve support.  When I made the decision to do what I did ALOT of people terrified the hell out of me with how bad it would be. (It was worse however... I still decided to do it but, was thankful to the mods and the people who supported me.  BB saved my a** back then.  I am so happy it is here for everyone no matter what circumstances or decisions they make. 

[[Lu...]]

And so my reason for writing my previous posts.

 

 

For my entire life my mother has been a negative, controlling, self absorbed, bullying, manipulative attention seeker. Is that a mental illness, a personality disorder, or is it just the way she is? I guess it's a fine line. She is now 84 and on a cocktail of meds, including benzos and ADS, but they can't be blamed for her "issues". She was like that when I was a child, and she definitely wasn't on any meds back then. Maybe she should have been.

 

You can identify "them" now as you are wiser.

 

I can't tell you how many similarities I see between her personality type and the personalities displayed by some people on BB. It's almost eerie. Sometimes the words I'm seeing written on the screen could be coming out of her mouth. If you try to be straight with these people, other people will respond with shock and tell you you're going to send them "over the edge".

 

Don't worry about them, they will survive and live longer than us. They will find the next willing victim. Ask her why did she have children?  This is an interesting question to ask and you may be surprised at the answer.  This is widespread with one or the other parent.  Usually the male would be dominant for that age group, but many women "dominated" the household including the husband.  This is Abuse.  Plain and simple. So all those complaining about how their husbands have "changed" during this withdrawal period as I have read.  It has always been there.  Instead of being busy or not seeing it, you now see your spouse\partner differently. Read about Abusive relationships and you will understand.  Now the other side of the coin is with surgery or illness, the person can become "abusive". If it was present before and now exaggerated, this is the reason.  If the person does not change back, or has always been this way, then the choice is yours. Get help.

 

I really don't know how to deal with people like this because they need help far greater than what I can give them. I do know how to deal with my mother, because I've had years of experience. You have to stand up to her and not take the crap she dishes out, but do you deal with other people the same way?

 

Read and you will learn. Lot's of book and videos on this topic.

 

The one thing I do know is if they don't do something about it while they are relatively young, they will end up bitter and lonely just like my mother, because no one will want to have anything to do with them. At the age of 54 I still have to deal with the guilt tactics if I don't drop everything and visit her every day. Just yesterday she was on the phone using her manipulative tactics because I wasn't coming to visit, even though I had been there the day before doing her shopping and cleaning for her.

 

She is still controlling you as per your writing.  To intervene, young is good.  They must understand their behaviour is not "normal". Old, not much of a chance. I wrote why in last post.

 

Anyway, what is all this saying? I'm not sure, but maybe what we are seeing with some people really has nothing to do with benzo use. Maybe it's just their personality, or maybe it's an underlying issue of some other kind.

 

Today they call it "mental illnes", "personality disorder". It is Abuse, period.

 

 

**edited for typo**

 

Mom was frightened and this likely happened to her as a child.  Go back generations or cousins and you will see it.  Today this is called Bullying as an all-inclusive term.  As you described she is what she is.  It is not her fault and she doesn’t know any better. It is us that have the problem if we allow them to continue manipulating us.  It is control.  On top of it now is drug fuelled.  She has her own demons and will never “wake” up.  Don’t mean to be harsh, but perhaps you should look at her in pity and free yourself from her grasp. I don’t mean to abandon her, but to understand, how she became this way and let go and enjoy your life. Not saying you don’t already or understand this. But you did imply you don’t understand. I merely try to have people think.

 

 

Out of curiosity, how many here, if they would admit it, were “bullied” or verbally or mentally abused as a child by a parent of a sibling and still to this day if they allow it to continue.  This is a confessional, I would like to hear.  I believe all of this is connected.  Maybe a new thread.  Want to start one?

 

I challenge but no one wants to "fess up".  New thread.  Way off topic.  I have more on this, but I don't want to be "attention seeking".  If I was so smart, I wouldn't have made this mistake. 

 

 

 

[[Lu...]]

Oscar, don't get the BP up.  This is just an exercise.  It is testing our ability to rationalize at what we should react to and what not to react to.  This is a test.....The emergency broadcast center is issuing an emergeny test......

 

 

There are so many possible reasons why what may work for one person may not be best for another.  One's own personal health situation, age, time on a particular benzo, history with other legal or illegal medications or alcohol use or abuse, benzo dose, other psychological or unresolved emotional issues, attentional issues, motivational issues, family history, financial situation, level of functioning, amount of sleep one gets if consistent, level of family or emotional support and so much more that can factor into a decision about speed of tapering.  Seems silly to try to convince anyone that they should take one approach to their taper.

 

Vertigo

 

Vertigo, well stated.  Fait accompli

[[Wi...]]

Wow Jess, that's so wonderful, you really do sound great, you do, I'm so happy for you!!

 

Funny, I said I was never coming back but I had a personal message and I'll admit I was curious and I want to thank you all cause I learned something: If you look at all my posts, I never ever attacked anyone else, or belittled, well, there is the one item about someone taking a year to get off 1mg of Valium but I don't think that was belittling, I just felt the poor thing wasn't being offered an alternative. There are some pretty smart cookies who took a big bite out of me who really are I know able to know better, so it only shows me how slanted our perspectives can all get when we need or want to see something. I will get attacked for this, that's ok, I don't care, that's the only explanation I can come up with, and even if it's wrong it has put me on the alert for the times I hope I can catch myself in the future doing just that, so that's a bonus. My intention was only to show that wow oh wow, there can be another way, but I see that that is futile, which is also really interesting don't you think? I never said anyone had to totally embrace my thoughts or path or anything like that, I just tried with increasing difficulty to get a point across and couldn't because apparently it just "isn't possible". Interesting. I was insulted and took it personally where there really was no need.

 

Ok then. I'm not gloating. I'm not hating and sadly I'm likely as "grown up" as I'm ever going to be.

I'm just going to get on with my life now.

m

Sigh...Marina  If you think that the blowback that occurred as a result of this thread is because of people "who really are I know able to know better, so it only shows me how slanted our perspectives can all get when we need or want to see something." then you really simply don't get it.

 

When you say "I never ever attacked anyone else, or belittled, well, there is the one item about someone taking a year to get off 1mg of Valium but I don't think that was belittling, I just felt the poor thing wasn't being offered an alternative. " While it may not take a year for me to get off the final 1.45 mg, it may.  For myself, in the last 8 months I have suffered a ruptured appendix, been diagnosed with Graves' disease and I also work full time and have through this entire taper.  The LAST thing I consider myself is a poor thing who wasn't offered an alternative.  While I don't think you are, I do believe your statement is condescending and ignorant.

 

You continue to intimate that those of us who don't think your idea of a faster taper being better are simply unknowlegdgable of it's existence.  That may be true for some who are new to the arena, but you are behaving as those very same people, including the medical community, who refuse to recognize that there even is a w/d syndrome. Perhaps you never came up against a doctor, like many of us have, who invalidated withdrawal, who said it couldn't be withdrawal you were experiencing or it shouldn't take any longer than a couple of weeks and that something else must be wrong with you or that it was in your head.

 

You are basically doing the same thing with the only difference being that you believe there is a withdrawal syndrome, but only how you experienced it.  And that like you, everyone else no matter how they are experiencing it, should be able to do it how you did it.  And that those who require a slow taper are ignorant of the possiblity that they can do it like you did.  The truth is simply that you are wrong.

 

Obviously there are those who can do it as you did.  However, there are others who never had withdrawal to begin with and simply stopped the drug who would scoff at you for the time it took you.  Please don't do the same thing to those of us who are doing the best we can to get off this miserable drug whatever is required. 

[[Lu...]]

So, maybe it is just a difference in personality type?  I am a pretty hard-core take it as it comes kind of person my nature.  Sounds like you are as well.  I am glad your doing well and I will let you know when I jump off the last of this xanax. 

 

The video link I posted presented a good analogy with peanut butter.  If the person reacts differently, does that not explain slower vs. fast taper rates? In simple terms.  How the liver processes, the receptors etc. Why are some people more susceptible to addiction and abuse of any drug when having the perfect storm biologically?

 

 

[[Me...]]

I can't believe this argument is still going on.  almost 300 replies.......really.  let it go

[[Zi...]]

I can't believe this argument is still going on.  almost 300 replies.......really.  let it go

 

This argument will never die because it is a religious issue.

 

 

[[Wi...]]

So, maybe it is just a difference in personality type?  I am a pretty hard-core take it as it comes kind of person my nature.  Sounds like you are as well.  I am glad your doing well and I will let you know when I jump off the last of this xanax. 

 

The video link I posted presented a good analogy with peanut butter.  If the person reacts differently, does that not explain slower vs. fast taper rates? In simple terms.  How the liver processes, the receptors etc. Why are some people more susceptible to addiction and abuse of any drug when having the perfect storm biologically?

yes, and why are we the lucky ones who simply can't stop benzos with no reprecussions as some others do...

[[Di...]]

This is not a pissing contest, nothing worse than those that get off that brag about it, great, you got off, no need to make others feel bad for not being able to do the same.

 

That isn't very nice at all, if you are off, be happy about it, not full of nasty crap.

 

Grow the hell up.

 

Oscar

 

The people who relate positive stories of success are not the ones "full of nasty crap." To the contrary, it is the jealous ones who are still in withdrawal that hate to see success stories, and who hijack threads that present a positive message. I have not yet succeeded, but I am happy for those who do and want to hear their stories. Those stories are probably typical, and not an anomaly due to special circumstances or adverse reactions.

 

I've read a lot of postings on a lot of threads. What I've seen is some who are bitter when someone else is cured. People who are cured are often warned of, or threatened with, delayed protraced withdrawal. People who C/T or rapid taper are vilified.

 

I've seen extreme negative reactions to those who go fast and succeed. Seems to threaten some people.

 

Okay Zig Zag, I'm going to throw out a challenge here. We keep hearing about all these nasty faceless people who are soooooo bitter and twisted because someone else has managed to get off their benzo of choice. We keep hearing how they almost seem to put some kind of "hex" on people simply through jealousy. Well show us.  Just post the link to a thread where this has happened, other than this one, because the only people I see on this one getting nasty are the ones who are complaining about other people being nasty.

 

If you find a thread like this, how many people are we talking about? One or two? Yeah, well you're going to get that on any forum. There will always be a very small minority of people who are just plain nasty, period. They were like that before benzos, and they'll be like that after benzos. I've come across a few of them here, and they're very sad cases, because you just know their life won't improve even when they do manage to get off their benzo.

 

I would like to see a thread where someone has posted a good news story after doing a faster taper and the majority of people have come down on them like a ton of bricks. I'm having my doubts there will be one because in the time that I've been on BB, the vast majority of threads that I've seen have always had the majority of people being happy for anyone who has succeeded, regardless of how they succeeded. Maybe there will be some people offering words of caution after a fast taper, but nasty and jealous? I seriously have my doubts.

 

Frankly I think this accusation is just a load of nonsense. You, Vribble, and yes I'm including you now Marina, because I think you have shown a side that is disappointing, are only trying to creating drama and arguments between people when there is no need for it. Most people have said, "Whatever - do it your way if it works", but oh no we're all supposedly so nasty and bitter towards you. The only people who have managed to keep this myth going are you three. Frankly I'm not sure why any of us a bothering to try to be reasonable with any of you, because it's falling on deaf ears. You have made up your minds that everyone is negative towards you and nothing anyone says will sway you.

 

I saw the post you deleted the other day Marina, and frankly your attitude disappointed me greatly, especially when what you said seemed to be directed at me, when I have been nothing but respectful and supportive towards you, and all I did was make a cautionary comment about the "turtle taper" term.

 

However, you deleted it, and I was glad so I made no comment because we all post things in haste sometimes, but when you made your post yesterday, being negative towards someone who apologised to you and someone else who said nothing nasty to you at all, then I'm afraid I've become very disappointed in your attitude too. Sorry.

[[Di...]]

 

Mom was frightened and this likely happened to her as a child.  Go back generations or cousins and you will see it.  Today this is called Bullying as an all-inclusive term.  As you described she is what she is.  It is not her fault and she doesn’t know any better. It is us that have the problem if we allow them to continue manipulating us.  It is control.  On top of it now is drug fuelled.  She has her own demons and will never “wake” up.  Don’t mean to be harsh, but perhaps you should look at her in pity and free yourself from her grasp. I don’t mean to abandon her, but to understand, how she became this way and let go and enjoy your life. Not saying you don’t already or understand this. But you did imply you don’t understand. I merely try to have people think.

 

 

Out of curiosity, how many here, if they would admit it, were “bullied” or verbally or mentally abused as a child by a parent of a sibling and still to this day if they allow it to continue.  This is a confessional, I would like to hear.  I believe all of this is connected.  Maybe a new thread.  Want to start one?

 

I challenge but no one wants to "fess up".  New thread.  Way off topic.  I have more on this, but I don't want to be "attention seeking".  If I was so smart, I wouldn't have made this mistake. 

 

A new thread for this discussion would be very interesting, although perhaps just as volatile as this one has been..lol...

 

Lots more I could say about my relationship with my mother, but this isn't the right place for it.

 

[[un...]]

Day 6 after my last cut. Feeling crappy today but surviving.

 

Sorry for butting in . . .

[[Vr...]]

Well good for you Vribble, brag all you want, you act like a 12 year old and you are a grandfather in your 60´s?

 

I just realized when I started to make a blog entry that I can no longer safely share anything personal about myself on this site after the way I was bashed for my age on this thread.

 

This wasn't an innocent "act your age" remark but a tortured way to work my age into the conversation and hurt me as much as humanly possible.  I'm 61 btw (which he would have known) yet he chooses the words, "in your 60's" to suggest I could be much older.  Not that there's anything wrong with 69.  It merely shows his intent to inflict pain.

 

I'm sure there would have been an uproar if oscar had said the same about a woman, if he had dared say in the same meanspirited way, "grandmother in your 60's" to any female member of benzobuddies.  Imagine how hurtful that would have been?  You would all recognize the malice and intent behind it - to marginalize and silence someone by suggesting they are over the hill and irrelevant. 

 

What's next, jibes about ones weight and physical characteristics?  Ones family, ones illness, where does it end?

 

Vribble

 

 

 

 

 

[[Zi...]]

Congratulations. Those who set out to destroy this thread and its message have succeeded. There is now so much noise and static that the original message has been lost in the trash.

 

We can disagree about opinions. We can disagree about facts. But to challange someone's personal experience is wrong. It's like going to the celebration thread and dumping because you have nothing to celebrate yet.

 

I'll be damned if I'll start a thread on this topic or any other topic that questions the religious issues. That includes relating my personal experiences if they oppose the conventional wisdom. I also have no desire to be jinxed for my good fortune. The losers are other readers who might also find that thier experience is not a worst case one.

 

Now go ahead and blast me because I won't be reading any postings on this thread. Talk to yourself.

[[Wi...]]

Congratulations. Those who set out to destroy this thread and its message have succeeded. There is now so much noise and static that the original message has been lost in the trash.

 

We can disagree about opinions. We can disagree about facts. But to challange someone's personal experience is wrong. It's like going to the celebration thread and dumping because you have nothing to celebrate yet.

 

I'll be damned if I'll start a thread on this topic or any other topic that questions the religious issues. That includes relating my personal experiences if they oppose the conventional wisdom. I also have no desire to be jinxed for my good fortune. The losers are other readers who might also find that thier experience is not a worst case one.

 

Now go ahead and blast me because I won't be reading any postings on this thread. Talk to yourself.

Zigzag, read or don't, entirely your choice.  However there is a BIG difference between "This is what worked for me and if you weren't aware that it's an optiom perhaps is worthy of consideration" and "If you aren't doing it this way which worked for me then you are poor things who aren't being offered an alternative and you just don't know better".  If that's the message that you say is getting lost, I'm good with that.

[[ve...]]

Well good for you Vribble, brag all you want, you act like a 12 year old and you are a grandfather in your 60´s?

 

I just realized when I started to make a blog entry that I can no longer safely share anything personal about myself on this site after the way I was bashed for my age on this thread.

 

This wasn't an innocent "act your age" remark but a tortured way to work my age into the conversation and hurt me as much as humanly possible.  I'm 61 btw (which he would have known) yet he chooses the words, "in your 60's" to suggest I could be much older.  Not that there's anything wrong with 69.  It merely shows his intent to inflict pain.

 

I'm sure there would have been an uproar if oscar had said the same about a woman, if he had dared say in the same meanspirited way, "grandmother in your 60's" to any female member of benzobuddies.  Imagine how hurtful that would have been?  You would all recognize the malice and intent behind it - to marginalize and silence someone by suggesting they are over the hill and irrelevant. 

 

What's next, jibes about ones weight and physical characteristics?  Ones family, ones illness, where does it end?

 

Vribble

 

Sorry your feelings were hurt by that insensitive remark by another member, Vribble.  Yes, it is a good idea to be mindful that what one posts on the internet, whether about one's age, education, geography or something else, can't be taken back.  So yes, one ought to be careful about posting personal information.  That being said, one does not expect to be attacked for one's age or other things on a support site. Frankly, I don't know why people want to attack others for going a particular rate of taper either.  I guess when one is in withdrawal or having a rough time, comments can fly off the handle, but it's unfortunate when they do.

 

V

[[je...]]

  Well, I think I too am done with this thread.  Sad but, true.  I will say this... if you read my signature you will see that last June I went from 2 mgs k and 3 mgs x daily( 5 mgs total per day)  down to 1.5 mgs X only.  I dont know how long it would have taken me to do this "ashton style" or whatever these turtle tapers are... but I am sure it would have been years.  It took me 3-4 months and I felt well enough to begin doing a "cut and hold" method which I tried in October and kept with till January.  I felt miserable and sick 90% of the time.  It took me 3 months to get form 1.5 down to .75.... I guess this was still "rapid".  I was cutting .25 per moth per and doing it in two cuts... one every two weeks.

    By Feb. of this year I was "over it".  The period of time from Oct-end of Jan. was terrible.  I could never depend on how I would feel.  I hated that.  I cut from .75 to .5 overnight... Had sx, they sucked, and just kept on.  Also, I was working and raising a child on my own this entire time.  Never missing work no matter what.  By the beginning of this month after "holding" I still felt terrible so I cut my dose in half.  That was a week or so ago and I feel great.  I dont know what is right for anyone else but, this was what worked for me.  I would rather have gone through that 3 months of "hell" then years or "pergatory".  I think life is valuable and short.  If you want to spend years getting off 1-2 mgs of valium or whatever your on... have at it.  That may work for you. 

        Good luck to everyone.....no matter what.

[[Wi...]]

For those who are proceeding with an excelerated taper, this may not be for you.  However for the rest of us who are struggling with the taper, this has been received from the Bristol and District Tranquilliser Project, where Heather Ashton is currently a patron and will be updated on their site in the near future:

 

"In regards to Ashton's manual, this taper for home use is too fast. We now recommend leaving a gap between reductions at least four weeks. We would perhaps suggest the last 1mg to be reduced by eighths if you wish to go slower. This may make the withdrawal symptoms less severe and will not lengthen the whole recovery period. If you have any more enquires, let us know.

 

Yours sincerely,

Jayne Hoyle

Bristol and District Tranquilliser Project

[[Ma...]]

For anyone interested in what this thread is about, please go back and read my opening post, that's all you really need.

 

As for feeling for someone suffering not being aware of or being offered any alternatives, yes, I have compassion. No condescension intended, for sure, I've been there. It's a terrible and frightening place to be.  All I ever wanted to do was share what worked for me in the hopes of maybe being of some service. I think it's pretty well illustrated on page 1 of this thread. As for the other business, the personal attacks etc... don't let that put you off. The only thing to do is to use what works and disregard the rest.

 

Best of luck everyone

peace,

m

[[Co...]]

Hi all,

 

I may have more to say later (if time permits), but I thought I'd post a few thoughts now.

 

First, BB is a self-selecting group. On the whole, we consist of tougher cases than the general population of those withdrawing from benzodiazepines; those experiencing few problems are unlikely to join us. Having said this, BB is made up of a broad spectrum of individuals. Most will follow taper schedules roughly in line with Ashton's protocols (even if they did not substitute with Valium), but some will be able to taper significantly more rapidly, while others will need to taper more slowly. Outside what would be medically unsafe, there is no taper rate which is always too fast; and outside of short-term or intermittent use, there is no taper rate that is always too slow. There always will be unusual cases and circumstances which will trump any common sense approaches we might wish to apply more generally.

 

Having said this, if some taper off so quickly that it makes them very ill, or if their taper schedule takes far longer than is necessary, then there is bound to be discussion about such matters. This does not mean that individuals should be criticised for their own personal choices of course. However, blanket statements, particularly at the extremes, and promotion of particular taper rates are a nonsense, as there is obviously great individual variability and personal circumstances which will affect such matters.

 

If an individual has been taking benzodiazepines for a few weeks, or there has been intermittent use for a protracted period, or if a very short half-life (of the order of two hours) benzodiazepine (or z-drug) is utilised, it would be only sensible to assume, in the first instance, an accelerated withdrawal schedule (or even abrupt cessation) to be appropriate. On the other hand, after protracted regular use, a more conservative schedule (in the first instance) should be assumed as more appropriate. This does not mean that the taper rate should not be tested and challenged. After all, dependency is largely the result of protracted use - it would be counterproductive to follow a slow tape plan if dependency is not yet apparent!

 

I would like to point out that I witness few members strongly promoting rapid or very slow taper schedules as some kind of panacea, but I have witnessed it. When applied blanket-fashion, such ideals are plain wrong. In individual cases and circumstances, they both have a place, might be discussed, and may by applied by individual members to fit their personal situation and circumstances.

 

jessicarabbit, three months to taper from 3mg to 1.5mk Klonopin would fall within the slower end of what Ashton suggests in her Manual. The majority of our members would fall within the time lines suggested by Ashton, but not all. I have my own very rough rule-of-thumb for withdrawal schedules. Most of our members will comfortably half their dose every 50-100 days (until their last pill). Plus, another 50-100 days to taper their final pill (assuming they use the smallest dose pill available in their particular benzodiazepine or z-drug). Such rule-of-thumb tapers will pretty-much mirror the typical overall taper rates suggested within Ashton's Manual (but without substitution, of course).

 

Anyway, I would suggest that members challenge and test themselves to determine what taper rate they find tolerable. At the other end of the scale, if going incredibly slow, or waiting for a long period between cuts offer no great benefits, I think it might be sensible to bite the bullet and attempt a more rapid taper. Some people never feel comfortable, no matter how slow they attempt to taper.

 

I try my best to avoid unequivocal statements in regard to taper rates - there is far too much individual variability. But outside of short-term or intermittent use, or a pressing medical need, I would caution against the assumption that a rapid withdrawal is in order. After protracted and regular use, I would encourage some sensible personal experimentation to determine just how quickly an individual can taper off. And, as always, consult with your doctor before making changes to any of your medications.

[[...]]

HI All,

 

What a shame...so much conflict

 

It has gotten to the point I now have no idea what a slow vs a long taper actually is, to say nothing of the advantages or disadvantages of each.

 

Unfortunately with this kind of vitriol and conflict one can no longer trust what one reads.

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[Di...]]

Congratulations. Those who set out to destroy this thread and its message have succeeded. There is now so much noise and static that the original message has been lost in the trash.

 

We can disagree about opinions. We can disagree about facts. But to challange someone's personal experience is wrong. It's like going to the celebration thread and dumping because you have nothing to celebrate yet.

 

I'll be damned if I'll start a thread on this topic or any other topic that questions the religious issues. That includes relating my personal experiences if they oppose the conventional wisdom. I also have no desire to be jinxed for my good fortune. The losers are other readers who might also find that thier experience is not a worst case one.

 

Now go ahead and blast me because I won't be reading any postings on this thread. Talk to yourself.

 

Okay, so in other words you aren't prepared to post any examples of these horrible bashing and negative comments about faster tapers that are supposedly being made continuously on BB, as I suggested. If it's as commonplace as it's claimed to be, surely you, Vribble or Marina could find at least one example to show us all ....... hmmmmm - thought as much.

 

So then let's admit that the only people who have "destroyed this thread and its message" and created all the "noise and static" are the ones who have made all those unfounded claims.

 

Maybe this thread, and all the nonsense that has gone on within it, can now be put to bed - until the next time someone decides to create another thread making these same unfounded claims.

[[Ho...]]

HI All,

 

What a shame...so much conflict

 

It has gotten to the point I now have no idea what a slow vs a long taper actually is, to say nothing of the advantages or disadvantages of each.

 

Unfortunately with this kind of vitriol and conflict one can no longer trust what one reads.

 

Cheers,

Adie

 

Hi Adie,

 

I think Colin's bottom line is; it's up to you to determine what works best for you. It doesn't matter what you call it. You need to experiment a little and see how you feel. If you can't tolerate your symptoms at a certain rate, then slow down that rate. If you feel ok, speed up the rate. It's really up to you. It's not anyone's body or taper but yours. What kind of taper makes you feel more comfortable?

 

Some members choose to taper quickly, even if that means they might feel rough while tapering. This is what I call "white knuckling it". Maybe they can because they aren't working, or maybe they have to for some other reason.

 

There are also slower tapers. Sometimes the reason for a very slow taper is a matter of comfort both physical and psychological. Maybe the member has a high stress job and can't tolerate intense withdrawal symptoms.

 

The idea is to get off these medications as quickly and as comfortably as possible. That's something you need to decided through trial and error. It doesn't matter what you call it. Just do what feels right for you. No one can tell you what's right for you and no one should.

 

As for the conflict of slow tapers vs rapid tapers; that's been an on going debate and can be a very volatile issue on the forum. My best advice to you is to read what applies, skip the conflict and do what you feel like the right thing.

 

Edit: about a billion typos. I'm surprised anyone could understand my point

[[...]]

Hi Hope1962,

 

Very good advice... 

And yes, I have learned to "read between the lines" believe me 

 

Cheers,

Adie