Sometimes Faster is BETTER

[[...]]

Hi babyrex,

 

uuuuuRahhh     

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[Zi...]]

OK.. I am tired so I hope this makes sense and my spelling and grammer is not to bad and I look forward to some actual replies to the question tomorrow when I have had some sleep.

 

Where does tolerance fit into this equation?  I was in such tolerance withdrawals for probably a year before I figured something was wrong and wanted off. 

 

IMHO.. I think because of this a slow taper would just have made things worse.  My situation dictated a rapid taper due to lack of meds and I believe that was the hand of the Goddess on my shoulder. (yet again)

 

I have been wanted to ask this for a while and I hope I get some thoughtful and meaningful feedback.

 

China

 

If I understand correctly, when we build tolerance to a certain dose then there are symptoms at that dose and the only way to eliminate the symptoms is to increase the dose. Another reason for increasing the dose is that the old dose is no longer effective.

 

It seems to me that once in tolerance withdrawal a person would still have the option of either a fast or a slow taper.

 

Of course, a physician can make the decision for you by restricting your prescriptions.

[[sp...]]

Hey Guys. What an interesting thread.

 

I was on clonazepam 5mg, crossed over to 100mg of diazepam and have tapered down to 1.6mg in approximately eighteen months. During this time I have also dropped trazodone(twice), olanzapine 5mg and zopiclone 7.5mg.

 

I didn't consider this fast or slow because I wasn't aware of that as a question let alone a problem. In absolute terms it can't BE fast or slow, just different. Strangely there appears to be no research base taking matched groups of crazy old ladies on 100mg of diazepam, tapering them at different rates and then comparing the outcomes.

 

When I came here I was stalled and terrified at 3mg. A bad case of an upcoming cliff and no safety nets.

 

Some of the threads WERE frightening; all were informative. When I had got over the "Jesus, what have I been doing?" blue funk I was left with the information. I was left with the power to go on.

 

For the future I will do just that...screw it and do it..."it" being what seems right for me ALONE.

 

This may well turn out badly but that wouldn't necessarily make it "wrong". I can't control for this experiment and neither can anyone else.

 

When I stumble and fall I will come here and cry.

 

Peace and Love and a rousing, cheesey chorus of "I did it myyyyyyyyyyy way".

 

spartacus

[[Ma...]]

Etown. I have a "take" on what you're talking about. It is my experience, being my own hands on experience, that if I'm going terribly slowly and full of symptoms, I'm in fact in tolerance. For some reason, tolerance is relieved by cutting. I would cut every 7 days come hell or high water and every single time my symptoms were relieved but cutting. Then it would get bad again by the end of the week. I believe I would become tolerant to the drug by that time, but I can't prove it, the only way would have been to slow down and see if the sxs abated which I never did. What it did notice though was that the sxs got less with each cut till around 2.5, then i got worse again with much better days till I got off. Now I'm better than I was on, but not as good yet as I was on 3 mgs, though there is a clarity and calm that just was not available to me on the stuff. Far from relaxed and groovy yet but it's better, it really is, even if my chest burns more and I saw a bit double again two days ago. It didn't last long, who cares. Who cares may be the best attitude you ever embrace in this nasty business. We are soooo affected by stress, the fear of what we're going through makes all the sxs worse, I've experienced it, I'm absolutely positive of it. It wasn't until I said ah what the hell, go ahead and just kill me then, that I started feeling better, in part because I surrendered, in other part because I made a decision and took and stand and carried it through, relieving the stress of how and when, which is also huge. Body scanning makes sxs worse. Constant body scanning to "listen" to your body makes your body sound very loud when it doesn't have to.

 

That's my over all take, for what it's worth.

 

As for the confrontation on this thread, I expected it and it's really nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be  I think overall the attitude is pretty great and I'm really happy to meet you guys. One person is being seen incorrectly, that's my opinion, they were attacked for speaking their mind without attacking anyone. We must not attack each other for speaking our minds. If you see something you don't like, like me, I advise you, me, us, whoever to just ignore it and focus on being positive and what we want. I no longer care. I'm not personally affected by someone elses... whatever. Whadevah!!!

 

Good night all.

m

[[Di...]]

Hi Marina

 

I’m sorry I really didn’t want to get further involved in this discussion, but I really do have to take issue with your stance that someone was “attacked for speaking their mind without attacking anyone”. 

 

Please go right back to the beginning of this thread and read all the posts. You will notice there was nothing negative or confrontational about it at all. Just people expressing opinions. The initial negative comments started at #14 when Zig Zag said …..

 

I expect somebody who tried a rapid taper to beat me up over this post. I don't care, because one anecdote dose not prove a theory. In fact, the knowledge that one person succeeded with a rapid taper disproves the BB theory that everybody should taper at a very slow rate. 

 

That comment wasn’t really a problem, and basically people ignored it, and continued to discuss the subject rationally. However, on post #24 Zig Zag weighs in again, unduly criticising those who do a slow taper and making claims that simply aren’t true – talking about a “bashing tendency”, and “stories make it clear that many who are on a slow taper suffer greatly all during the taper” and “people who use a very slow taper feel threatened by suggestions that not everybody needs a very slow taper” and people who are “always shouted down by those who claim a very slow taper is the only way to go”.

 

He even made the comment “The only opinion that is not tolerated on BB seems to be the opinion that a rapid taper is bad”, to which pianogirl had to weigh in and set him straight. Still no one became confrontational with him.

 

However all that changed at post #40 when Vribble got involved, with his comments about a “Holy Order” and claiming that it allows “updosing” and implying that the slow taperers are “building a shrine to the process”.

 

Still there was no reaction, until Zig Zag gave a  to that nonsense post from Vribble, and WWWI reacted to it, which I don’t blame her for because I think we had all been goaded into reacting by both of them by that time.

 

By the time we get to post #47 Zig Zag is getting into full flight with his comment “Marina, The worshippers at the altar of the slow taper are not about to let have a thread of our own”. It was at that point that it became very evident that Zig Zag was just spoiling for a fight.  Still everyone refrained from taking the bait, but at post #50 he says “That means that those on a slow taper should butt out and not co-opt our thread with war stories” to which pianogirl had to weigh in again to remind him that it wasn’t “his” thread, and added that she was not surprised that he had gotten a reaction to his comments.

 

It basically went downhill from there, with more of Zig Zag claiming that “Everytime someone tries to start a positive thread, it is co-opted”. It was at this point that I’d had enough of both Vribble, and especially Zig Zag, and I got involved.

 

All the while we have had Zig Zag duplicating and quoting the same posts numerous times and giving them a , as if he is just trying to keep the argument going.

 

So as you can see, if you really go back and read the thread thoroughly, you will see that despite being goaded, it took some time before anyone reacted negatively to either of these posters. The negativity definitely started with Vribble and Zig Zag, and people only reacted to their posts. At some point I think you made an excuse for Zig Zag, saying something along the lines that this was just the way he is, or I think you called him “verbally ornate”. Sorry, no, that's just making excuses for rudeness.

 

Sorry, like I said earlier, I don’t have any issues with you, but I just want to set the record straight. I didn’t mean for this post to become a complete “chapter and verse” of the whole thread, but sometimes you need to scrutinise things to really see the wood for the trees.

 

If this thread has gone off the rails at all, it has not been the fault of anyone doing a slower taper. The fault lies squarely with Vribble and Zig Zag, because they are the ones who started with the confrontational posts.

 

[[Zi...]]

This is the last thread I'm ever going to post. Never say never of course, but that's the plan. I want to share something that happened to me. I was holding in hell at 9 mgs of Valium getting worse and worse, just miserable, unable to function, bed ridden in terrible pain and mind bending anxiety. I tried cutting .5 mgs ever two weeks and got down to 8.5 feeling even worse and just terrified, afraid to go forward afraid to stay still. Then I forgot to take my dose one night and to my amazement the next day I felt much better. Two days later I was a wreck but that one day was a revelation. My doctor decided to take me off quickly. We started cutting .5 every 4 days for 1 mg then slowed it to .5/week which I used till 1 mg, then cut .25/week till off.

 

Here's what I want to share: I did not slow down regardless of the symptoms. I had some terrible ones very frightening episodes, I did not slow down.... so what happened? The symptoms passed. I would feel a bit better with every cut and then worse towards the end of it. Symptoms I would have at one dosage would just go away with the next cut. Now that I'm off, some of the symptoms that plagued me from 3mgs down are gone. Others come and go and I'm only briefly off so who knows but I don't feel worse as time passes. Well, I did feel better when I first came off as compared to how I felt say 4 days into it  but now that I'm past when my next cut would have been, it seems that I'm feeling better again.

 

I didn't "listen" to my body assuming that bad symptoms meant I needed to slow down. They did not mean that at all. They were just something I was passing through.

 

Had I "listened to my body" assuming symptoms meant hold, I would still be at 8 mgs in hell. Now I have my life back. I'm not back to normal by any stretch of the imagination. I expect that to take 3 to 5 years honestly, that's what it takes, if it's less I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

I'm not doing any worse than people who have come off going very slowly.

 

I have not come across this information anywhere on this Forum so I wanted to pass it on.

 

In my experience, my personal experience and the experience of some others who sadly start having symptoms and think it means slow down, but for a time feel better, this is how it can work.

 

If going at a snail's pace is painful and frustrating and you just want off, it might not be the worst thing you'll ever do for yourself but only you can decide. It's scary at times, the symptoms can be severe, but they passed for me as I cut.

 

Just some food for thought.

 

All the best to everyone.

m

 

[[Zi...]]

THank you, nice to meet all of you! SO happy you seem to be doing quite well.

 

I almost didn't post this because I was afraid of the repercussions. I tried to discuss something a while back and after getting batted around a bit, the thread quickly became about slow tapering and supplements.

 

Some of you mentioned that you would like a thread for those not rapid tapering so much as reasonable rate tapering as opposed to being in the area with the C/Ts. Feel free to use this one! It would be my pleasure to be able to contribute in some way to this board. It did give me a lot of support when I was feeling bad, I met some lovely giving wonderful people, but no one to support me when it came to coming off not using the turtle taper method. All I did was the Ashton method by the book, that's all.

 

I've been through a lot with this drug, I was in terrible suffering till I got down to about 5 mgs, again, never stopping to hold for symptoms to abate, so I do expect for it to take some time for me to heal completely. I don't fear it, I know what to do and what not to do, not because I was made frightened by the board but from my own experience and I hope to do fairly well. The key for me is always to keep pressing on. People talk about "doing too much" well, I've not found that to be true. We have symptoms that come and go, we hit a bad patch and associate it with whatever is happening at the time. I'm not saying there aren't some triggers. When I drink real coffee, it seems to take me forever to fall asleep, even when I drink it earlier in the day, so i'm having decaf, small sacrifice. Food sensitivities can arise I know. Anyway, if anyone finds it helpful, please, stay!!

 

I really wish I had known you guys while I was going through my taper. It would have been nice to have the support! Now you can support each other right out in the open!!

 

Have a great day everyone, light hearts, light symptoms!

xm

 

[[Zi...]]

There is something I would like to add, and I can't stress it strongly enough, it is my experience, which doesn't make it a one size fits all protocol, but makes it likely that others might find this to be the case as well:

 

Because I didn't consider slowing down an option for a few reasons (I wanted off and I felt my doctor was not going to to support a long drawn out affair) I CUT THROUGH SYMPTOMS, VERY DIFFICULT SYMPTOMS, AND THEY DISAPPEARED.

 

In order to listen to your body, you have to know what it's saying.

 

ASSUMING SYMPTOMS ARE A SIGN YOU MUST SLOW DOWN CAN BE FALSE.

 

No matter how many times I say this, it is ignored and it is the corner stone of what I'm trying to say.

 

Just because you're having symptoms does not mean you have to hold, THEY MIGHT VERY WELL GO AWAY WITH THE NEXT CUT. IF NOT THAT ONE, THEN TWO CUTS DOWN THE LINE.

 

I remember having one terrible, terrifying day around 5.5mgs (i'd have to go to my blog to check). I didn't slow down, I did not hold, I NEVER had a day like that again. Never.

 

I am offering an alternative perspective that is an important one though by no means a directive.

 

it is however my experience, which makes it valid. If you don't try it, you can't possibly know whether or not it will work for you. That is your risk, your choice. I'm so happy I did it this way.

 

HOLDING DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A RESPONSE TO SYMPTOMS.

 

That's all, but it's the most important thing I have to say. It may not be necessary to come off symptom free at all.

 

That's it, I'm off, have a wonderful day.

m

 

[[Zi...]]

Still not quite what I'm saying. If you meet with resistance, hold your ground and keep marching. The enemy might be a mirage, the enemy might have little hold, it might dissolve into dust. No need to stand still to fight a ghost with a good game.

m

 

[[Zi...]]

If people could express themselves without others taking it personally, that would be better.

 

Please, no fighting.

 

m

 

[[Zi...]]

Hey Pam, actually, Zig Zag wasn't attacking anyone. There are some passionate views and maybe they're not what others like to hear, and he's verbally ornate in his descriptions which I kind of like but others may not, and is clearly frustrated for what I think is good reason, I am too, there is a definite slant towards the slow taper here and coming off symptom free, which is actually impossible. There is NO information about what I learned to be true, and that is that...

 

... IN A FASTER TAPER YOU MIGHT GO THROUGH A PERIOD INITIALLY OR LATER WHERE THE SYMPTOMS FEEL UNBEARABLE (AND I MEAN UNBEARABLE) BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING NEGATIVE AND IT IS SOMETHING YOU CAN CUT THROUGH.

 

that is CRUCIAL information I am determined to get across.

 

The feeling here is when it gets tough that means slow down, but you know, it doesn't necessarily. People who think they can't speed up might feel that way because they experience and increase in symptoms not understanding that this very well might pass and they may feel much much better for having gone through that. I know that's the case for me and I'm finding it true of others who have given it a shot.

 

There is a Forum trend of slow tapering, that's a fact. That's ok, every place has it's flavor. Those who say that's not the way, are probably doing a slow taper which is why they don't notice it, but it is true. It's not a criticism, it's just the way it is. There are people who become combative and defensive when a different idea is put forth, there are, it's happened to me on several occasions. I say something in the hopes only of sharing and really get slammed and it is disheartening, but I'm guessing this is all coming from a place of feeling trapped and frightened and I get it, this isn't my first rodeo. I understand far more about benzo withdrawal than anyone has a right to. I'm not proud of it, it's been horrible.

 

People are assuming that because I did what I did I must have had an easier time. I did not. At a slow taper I was so disabled I could hardly get out of bed. I was rocking with pain, sleeping 2 hours/night, each small cut every two weeks was agony sending me deeper and deeper into the pain and anxiety and fear. I swear to you, I almost didn't make it. When I started cutting quickly I figured my life was over anyway, why not and it turned things around.

 

A FASTER TAPER IS DEFINITELY AN OPTION FOR THOSE FOR WHOM A TURTLE TAPER ISN'T WORKING, and that's an important bit of information to at least have access to. I put it out there because I care, no other reason, I don't have to do this, I'm not trying to push an agenda, it just breaks my heart to see people in what looks like tolerance to me micro tapering and thinking there is no other way. Maybe there isn't for everyone, for some perhaps this does have to be the way, I certainly don't know for sure, wish I did, but there is an alternative to at least try. I do not want to do harm. I am promising nothing, but it would be irresponsible to not share what worked for me.

 

People are starting to gang up on Zig Zag and while I see that the intentions are good, they are actually doing what they're accusing ZZ of too so let's all just not 

 

Forgive me if anything I said sounded at all combative, I don't mean to be, I'm just trying to get a point across and am not liking the changing tone of this thread. It was not changed by Zig Zag by the way. It was not. While I wouldn't have said what he said the way he said it, though I might have liked to, and at the risk of incurring even more wrath, I agree with him. I got zero support in doing what I was doing the way I did it BECAUSE THE INFORMATION WASN'T OUT THERE.

 

I'm putting it out there. Please hear it. It might really help someone. I think it may have saved my a** 

 

All the best, only

m

 

 

[[Zi...]]

Pam, I'm happy to know you 

 

I will say in all honesty I did find others confrontational but we can agree to disagree, I hope we can, I really have no interest in carrying any negativity over.

 

Thanks for the Good on You. Man there are a lot of people from down under on this forum. I would love to visit. Maybe down the road. IT's just so bloody far from me.

 

Have a great evening.

m

 

[[Zi...]]

Just to clarify as I know things get lost in translation, I didn't c/t by any stretch, I just did Ashton by the book, only I cut .5/week, and this only after finding that a slow taper was making my symptoms unbearable. I am repeating myself for those who come on now. So, at Ashton speed, without change and cutting regardless of symptoms, manageably ok. I never had the expectation that I would be fine once I was off, I just wanted off. Much much better over all than the slower rate of tapering.

 

Funny Pam, yes it's true, you are kind of far from anyone. Such beautiful country you're keeping all to yourselves.

 

Hiya No, Addie, nice to meet all these people. So happy if I could have been of any help, truly. What I'm noticing is people who are trying the Ashton method are reporting also feeling better after a cut, which is what consistently happened to me, then I'd feel worse as the week wore on, often having my worst day on the day I was meant to cut. This did however get better as the symptoms eased up over time.

 

It's interesting, it really is, I can't imagine why it should be and yet it is. Also, I only came off 8.5mgs at that rate, not a whole lot really.

 

So, I've pretty much done it all, a c/t started al this, then a turtle tapered off Ativan, I didn't know that's what it was called for 7 years (!!) had a reaction to a birthcontrol pill, ended up back on Valium 35mgs came off fast, hit a wall and slowed right down into tolerance, held for 6 months in living hell and came off the rest in a kind of c/t and felt better for it. Now this last one. I've experienced every symptom in the book and probably some not written about and one night was so determined to leave this world, I almost did, so no talk about me not knowing how awful this can be, not that I'm clinging to it. I'm not. I have every intention of developing amnesia  :) starting right now.

 

Good luck Campers.

All of us will be healed one day, isn't that great??

m

 

[[Zi...]]

This is the last thread I'm ever going to post. Never say never of course, but that's the plan. I want to share something that happened to me. I was holding in hell at 9 mgs of Valium getting worse and worse, just miserable, unable to function, bed ridden in terrible pain and mind bending anxiety. I tried cutting .5 mgs ever two weeks and got down to 8.5 feeling even worse and just terrified, afraid to go forward afraid to stay still. Then I forgot to take my dose one night and to my amazement the next day I felt much better. Two days later I was a wreck but that one day was a revelation. My doctor decided to take me off quickly. We started cutting .5 every 4 days for 1 mg then slowed it to .5/week which I used till 1 mg, then cut .25/week till off.

 

Here's what I want to share: I did not slow down regardless of the symptoms. I had some terrible ones very frightening episodes, I did not slow down.... so what happened? The symptoms passed. I would feel a bit better with every cut and then worse towards the end of it. Symptoms I would have at one dosage would just go away with the next cut. Now that I'm off, some of the symptoms that plagued me from 3mgs down are gone. Others come and go and I'm only briefly off so who knows but I don't feel worse as time passes. Well, I did feel better when I first came off as compared to how I felt say 4 days into it  but now that I'm past when my next cut would have been, it seems that I'm feeling better again.

 

I didn't "listen" to my body assuming that bad symptoms meant I needed to slow down. They did not mean that at all. They were just something I was passing through.

 

Had I "listened to my body" assuming symptoms meant hold, I would still be at 8 mgs in hell. Now I have my life back. I'm not back to normal by any stretch of the imagination. I expect that to take 3 to 5 years honestly, that's what it takes, if it's less I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

I'm not doing any worse than people who have come off going very slowly.

 

I have not come across this information anywhere on this Forum so I wanted to pass it on.

 

In my experience, my personal experience and the experience of some others who sadly start having symptoms and think it means slow down, but for a time feel better, this is how it can work.

 

If going at a snail's pace is painful and frustrating and you just want off, it might not be the worst thing you'll ever do for yourself but only you can decide. It's scary at times, the symptoms can be severe, but they passed for me as I cut.

 

Just some food for thought.

 

All the best to everyone.

m

 

[[Zi...]]

THank you, nice to meet all of you! SO happy you seem to be doing quite well.

 

I almost didn't post this because I was afraid of the repercussions. I tried to discuss something a while back and after getting batted around a bit, the thread quickly became about slow tapering and supplements.

 

Some of you mentioned that you would like a thread for those not rapid tapering so much as reasonable rate tapering as opposed to being in the area with the C/Ts. Feel free to use this one! It would be my pleasure to be able to contribute in some way to this board. It did give me a lot of support when I was feeling bad, I met some lovely giving wonderful people, but no one to support me when it came to coming off not using the turtle taper method. All I did was the Ashton method by the book, that's all.

 

I've been through a lot with this drug, I was in terrible suffering till I got down to about 5 mgs, again, never stopping to hold for symptoms to abate, so I do expect for it to take some time for me to heal completely. I don't fear it, I know what to do and what not to do, not because I was made frightened by the board but from my own experience and I hope to do fairly well. The key for me is always to keep pressing on. People talk about "doing too much" well, I've not found that to be true. We have symptoms that come and go, we hit a bad patch and associate it with whatever is happening at the time. I'm not saying there aren't some triggers. When I drink real coffee, it seems to take me forever to fall asleep, even when I drink it earlier in the day, so i'm having decaf, small sacrifice. Food sensitivities can arise I know. Anyway, if anyone finds it helpful, please, stay!!

 

I really wish I had known you guys while I was going through my taper. It would have been nice to have the support! Now you can support each other right out in the open!!

 

Have a great day everyone, light hearts, light symptoms!

xm

 

[[ve...]]

Haven't read the whole thread but want to point out that if you are tapering a slow benzo like valium, you might make a cut and if not waiting at least ten days to three weeks, if one makes a second cut, the previous one or two cuts may not have fully processed out, so what can happen is a cumulative impact from several cuts can be felt a few weeks later.  As far as speed of cutting, it can be a personal decision and based on your own life situation.  I went fairly rapidly (at least I thought) when I went from 6 to 2mg valium over four months.  I chose to slow it down and took about five months to finish the final 2mg.  Part of this was due to the time of year with summer travel plans coming up, part was due to a family member being sick and having to fly back and forth. 

 

We do what we can handle and like an earlier poster wrote, whatever it takes to remain functional.  There are some who feel slightly better in a paradoxical way after a cut.  That was never the case for me.  I always had strong withdrawal about 3-7 days after each cut.  Some prefer daily titrating to avoid some of the cut and hold hits, but even the daily titrating can catch up eventually.  You say tomato,  I say toMAHto, let's call the whole thing off . 

 

I do want to make one point though for those considering keeping going at a fairly rapid pace, regardless of intense withdrawal pangs and particularly ringing in the ear (tinnitus) or vertigo (imbalance).  It may work for some, but I would like to post here that I saw an otoneurologist early on before my taper (neurologist who specializes in inner ear balance and hearing issues).  He told me that he tapers his patients off the relatively low dose of 2.5mg valium over several months to avoid inner ear problems such as tinnitus and vertigo.  So keep in mind that one may be risking one's hearing if not listening to one's own body as to the rapidity of one's taper.  It may not be the case for everyone, but when it comes to hearing, I'd err on the side of caution.  Also keep in mind that some doctors tend to discount what they consider a "small dose" of the so called "shorter acting"  benzos like klonopin or ativan for example.  I've heard countless times here on forum and from a few friends in the "real world" that "oh, I'm only taking 1/2mg twice a day, it's a low dose".  Huh? Folks, 1/2 mg twice a day of klonopin is equivalent to 20mg valium per day!  Remember, the otoneuro specialist I saw, tapers patients two to three months off 2.5mg valium!

 

Happy hearing!

 

V

[[Zi...]]

Vertigo, you make a good point. Whether I make a large cut or a small one I always have a delayed reaction. I was surprised when I cut only 0.2mg Valium to experience some non-trivial symptoms.

 

It would be ideal if there were some good study data to guide us. Of course, that would be small comfort to someone who has an atypical reaction. Nevertheless there is probably a "typical" withdrawal protocol that would be a good place for most of us to start. We just don't know what that is, so we all end up either experimenting, or trying to do what seems to work for others.

[[JC...]]

There might be something to cutting faster (in certain circumstances).

 

1) It is the drug in our system that is screwing us up

 

2) We suffer anyway -- even if we cut really slow

 

I guess everyone has to listen to their bodies and like Buddha says, "Accept (Embrace) suffering."

 

 

[[Lu...]]

Oy Vey! Zigzag......

Song for ZigZag nothing personal.  Just fitting for the comments.

 

 

 

Vertigo.  You are a fighter!  Thanks for the input.

Some need to remain functional and others are sick from the drug and must get off as quickly as possible with balance as I posted earlier.  Some have responsibilities and cannot devote all their time to withdrawal.  There is no other choice. Those that need to remain functional may have decided to get off the drug for many reasons including cognitive impairment or side effects.  The worst case is developing a “drug toxicity” followed by tolerance. 

 

We do what we can handle and like an earlier poster wrote, whatever it takes to remain functional. There are some who feel slightly better in a paradoxical way after a cut. That was never the case for me. I always had strong withdrawal about 3-7 days after each cut. Some prefer daily titrating to avoid some of the cut and hold hits, but even the daily titrating can catch up eventually. You say tomato, I say toMAHto, let's call the whole thing off

 

Agree with the above.

I wrote about this on the Taper Thread.  For newbies, some of this insight on this topic would be helpful.  The timeline is about right.  Day 3,4 and up to day 10 for each cut. At least you know the rythym and can plan around it.

 

Interesting about the tinnitus.  I find it gets louder during the strong withdrawal and lessens afterward.  The good news, for me thus far, is the withdrawal symptoms after each cut are less each time.  This is why I am pushing the taper rate.  If the withdrawal is getting less why not push?  Fear not.

 

Since pushing, and on day three, I found my sleep worsened, tremor and some muscle twitching appeared.  Overall still tolerable. Experiment continues.

 

 

[[ja...]]

Thanks Marina for starting this thread. I had to c/o to Valium from Xanax. My I/W was horrific. Believe me Horrific is the right word. I am glad I did. I think each one of us has different ways to cope with our sx. Like Marina and some others, although the w/d is not fun I'm not afraid of it anymore.

 

I am cutting .05 every 10 days and hope to do this as far down as possible. I too feel sometimes we just have to keep going. I too feel better when I cut. Also I'm like odd girl out because there is no rhyme or reason to my w/d sx. Ive read where People say I get hit on day 7 or day 3. My w/d changes with each cut. I have had 9 great days then hit on day 10. I still cut and do fine. Ive been hit on day 1 then better for days then bam. So I just never know.

 

Bottom line follow you heart For me I'm ready to be off. So I will plow through the sx.

 

Peace and health to all

Love Jackie

[[...]]

HI Diaz-Pam,

 

Take my advice and put this ZigZag character on your DON”T READ LIST. Not only is he confrontational he seems to be vindictive...

 

He is looking for a fight. He feels safe behind his computer and does not realize or apparently care about the disruption he is causing.

 

Everybody has a right to their opinion but when one can not tolerate an others in my opinion they fall into the fanatic category and should be quickly ignored.

 

If I was just coming onto this site for information and saw a post like this I would never return.

 

This is a superb post topic and should not be sabotaged like this.

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[Br...]]

Thanks Marina for starting this thread. I had to c/o to Valium from Xanax. My I/W was horrific. Believe me Horrific is the right word. I am glad I did. I think each one of us has different ways to cope with our sx. Like Marina and some others, although the w/d is not fun I'm not afraid of it anymore.

 

I am cutting .05 every 10 days and hope to do this as far down as possible. I too feel sometimes we just have to keep going. I too feel better when I cut. Also I'm like odd girl out because there is no rhyme or reason to my w/d sx. Ive read where People say I get hit on day 7 or day 3. My w/d changes with each cut. I have had 9 great days then hit on day 10. I still cut and do fine. Ive been hit on day 1 then better for days then bam. So I just never know.

 

Hello Jackie.  I've had a similar experience to you.  I had interdose withdrawal which more awful and more disabling and more protracted than I care to describe.  Only after years of this did I cross over to valium.

 

Now I am tapering.  Like you, after a cut my withdrawal symptoms hit without any pattern.  Perhaps the prior severe interdose symptoms are connected to this?

 

I know it's well established that tolerance and dependency occurs more rapidly with short acting benzos but that is a different matter to not being able to predict the number of days before you get slammed following a cut.  In truth I have more or less disabling waves every single day (not just unpleasant but ones I can't push thru to do basic tasks).  Perhaps you do too?

 

I'm not afraid of the withdrawal symptoms any more either but when they kick in they are so significant that I can not function in the most basic way cognitively or physically.  It looks from the outside as if I have just had a minor stroke and am dazed & stunned.  (I'll skip over how it feels but I can tell you there's nothing nice about it whatsoever.)  It can last a few hours or a few days.  The unpredictability means I have to have someone accompany me to appointments in case I am too incoherent and inarticulate to speak properly or recall what I intended to say.  I find the cognitive malfunctions are by far the most disabling.

[[Ma...]]

Verti, I know how Valium works, I'm just offering an alternative that can work despite the conventional wisdom to the contrary. How or why I do not know. If what you're doing is working for you, how wonderful is that? THen it's not broken and you've no need to consider anything else. Terrific. If you've tried everything and are still suffering terribly, here's something that worked for me that maybe you haven't considered, that's all. Again, the most important part I'm saying and it's stated in the Ashton Manual is that she noticed that her patients reported over all fewer symptoms towards the end cutting every two weeks twice what I was cutting per week, so, it's still the same rate just with a more gentle incremental glide. Yes, it's true, after a week, you're still really not fully at that dosage, but the important thing is it didn't seem to matter. Symptoms still became less, more bearable, the overall experience was manageable where previously it was not. I share this with the amazement I experienced going through it. All I did was the Ashton Manual, nothing faster, nothing breakneck. My own doctor said in his experience people would have dose related issues. DOSE RELATED, not rate of taper related and I found this to be absolutely true for me.

 

Hi Braban, sorry, I wrote this before I saw your post. I went into tolerance on Valium within two weeks and I think would go into it again at the end of each cut, which might explain why this was so good for me, but honestly, I don't know.

 

What I do know is that that some things that I thought I understood to be happening weren't contributing to the experience in the way I thought they should. If that makes any sense 

 

sometimes I'd just get a big wave out of nowhere and it would make no sense at all, like you Jackie, but I will say I almost always felt better after a cut. Beats me. Maybe someone will know why. I thought maybe it gave my brain something specific to do. I'm not entirely kidding.

 

So all the best to us fighters. Eventually we'll all be done with this, nature of the beast and all. Have a good day.

m

[[Vr...]]

Again, the most important part I'm saying and it's stated in the Ashton Manual is that she noticed that her patients reported over all fewer symptoms towards the end cutting every two weeks twice what I was cutting per week, so, it's still the same rate just with a more gentle incremental glide. Yes, it's true, after a week, you're still really not fully at that dosage, but the important thing is it didn't seem to matter. Symptoms still became less, more bearable, the overall experience was manageable where previously it was not. I share this with the amazement I experienced going through it. All I did was the Ashton Manual, nothing faster, nothing breakneck. My own doctor said in his experience people would have dose related issues. DOSE RELATED, not rate of taper related and I found this to be absolutely true for me.

 

That was so true for me. Well put, especially, "My own doctor said in his experience people would have dose related issues. DOSE RELATED, not rate of taper related"

 

Vribble

 

P.S. I'm glad you and ZigZag got the thread back on track.  Sorry for making trouble.

[[Ma...]]

It's interesting isn't it? Who would have believed it?

 

Let's all just forget the past shall we, join hands and buy the world a Coke (man i'm old  and happy for it  )

m