Sometimes Faster is BETTER

[[os...]]

The only thing is that there is no way of telling if the rate of taper determines the time it takes to fully recover.  A fast taper may mean longer recovery time.  Or a fast taper may mean a quicker recovery.  I don't know.  Its impossible to say. 

 

I say go at rate you want too.  As long as your consistent and determined you'll be fine.

 

I am going to chime in here also.

 

I get the idea of going faster, i really do... and if that works, then great...

 

I have also read too many horror stories on here and i think that has influenced my taper speed of late.

 

However, as a very long term user, i had bad experiences with even small daily cuts from the get go, i had to make them even smaller or i would have been a mess... i hit many bad bumps in my taper and i am still not free, there are times when i have often wondered if i would really be much worse off if i went faster? I still think i would be but maybe the suffering would be short lived? I just don´t know, i have heard that once some get unstable that it can be extremely hard to get stability back, that said, it has always been a fear of mine that if i cut bigger and then held, i would simply not stabilize again and yet many times i see others cut bigger and invariably they DO stabilize again... yet there is some suffering there for a time but it seems to pass.

 

Marina, i noticed you said it could take years to fully heal (in your first post), it is exactly this reason why i am deterred from speeding up as the way i see it, we all have a predetermined healing time regardless, so, if it is going to take 4 years, what is there to actually gain from being free sooner if the suffering continues??? At least with the way i am doing this, i have some control over symptoms and i have just recently turned a corner... also, with daily cutting, i can hold at any time and within a matter of days i can feel almost 80% well...

 

It´s hard to know... i will continue to go slow until i hit 2mg Valium but i suspect that i may decide on larger cuts from that point until i am off UNLESS i am actually feeling so much better by that point.

 

I go slow because i see too many speed up and once off they feel terrible and often have to reinstate, i am a long term user and i think even if i went faster, i would still be in withdrawal for some time post taper and therefore i would rather try and let the taper heal me as much as possible, you know, i am almost at 3mg and doing pretty well for my efforts, the downside is it IS taking a long time but i rarely hear of anyone that finishes this and is symptom free if a faster taper was the chosen route... it seems to me that there is still a year or more to heal post a faster taper, i may finish up that route (at least i would be off the damn drug) but i am all for making this as painless as possible, it may not pay off but i have seen some very slow taperers step off and feel relatively well within a matter of just a few months... to be ill for a year is a long time, it´s a gamble but one thing is for sure that a quick exit off the drug rarely seems to be the end of this... either way, fast or slow, if you are a slow healer, you cannot heal any faster no matter what route is taken... i pushed ahead once and the consequences were just awful, i really would rather not go back there if i can help it... i would rather add 3 years to my taper than go through that again...

 

Oscar

[[Br...]]

Well put, especially, "My own doctor said in his experience people would have dose related issues. DOSE RELATED, not rate of taper related"Vribble

 

I think Bart covered this in his post where he said, "My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off".

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=77990.msg1032821#msg1032821

 

Let's not forget that benzos have their own toxic (side) effects and these are not necessarily the same as benzo withdrawal symptoms.

[[Zi...]]

Well put, especially, "My own doctor said in his experience people would have dose related issues. DOSE RELATED, not rate of taper related"Vribble

 

I think Bart covered this in his post where he said, "My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off".

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=77990.msg1032821#msg1032821

 

Let's not forget that benzos have their own toxic (side) effects and these are not necessarily the same as benzo withdrawal symptoms.

 

Is this just another way to say Marina is a special case not to be taken seriously?

[[Ma...]]

That's true, you're assuming because it worked for me that I must be scpecial. Maybe I am, I so am  and maybe I'm not. But don't assume that and dismiss it. The experience still stands.

m

[[...]]

This is the last thread I'm ever going to post. Never say never of course, but that's the plan. I want to share something that happened to me. I was holding in hell at 9 mgs of Valium getting worse and worse, just miserable, unable to function, bed ridden in terrible pain and mind bending anxiety. I tried cutting .5 mgs ever two weeks and got down to 8.5 feeling even worse and just terrified, afraid to go forward afraid to stay still. Then I forgot to take my dose one night and to my amazement the next day I felt much better. Two days later I was a wreck but that one day was a revelation. My doctor decided to take me off quickly. We started cutting .5 every 4 days for 1 mg then slowed it to .5/week which I used till 1 mg, then cut .25/week till off.

 

Here's what I want to share: I did not slow down regardless of the symptoms. I had some terrible ones very frightening episodes, I did not slow down.... so what happened? The symptoms passed. I would feel a bit better with every cut and then worse towards the end of it. Symptoms I would have at one dosage would just go away with the next cut. Now that I'm off, some of the symptoms that plagued me from 3mgs down are gone. Others come and go and I'm only briefly off so who knows but I don't feel worse as time passes. Well, I did feel better when I first came off as compared to how I felt say 4 days into it  but now that I'm past when my next cut would have been, it seems that I'm feeling better again.

 

I didn't "listen" to my body assuming that bad symptoms meant I needed to slow down. They did not mean that at all. They were just something I was passing through.

 

Had I "listened to my body" assuming symptoms meant hold, I would still be at 8 mgs in hell. Now I have my life back. I'm not back to normal by any stretch of the imagination. I expect that to take 3 to 5 years honestly, that's what it takes, if it's less I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

I'm not doing any worse than people who have come off going very slowly.

 

I have not come across this information anywhere on this Forum so I wanted to pass it on.

 

In my experience, my personal experience and the experience of some others who sadly start having symptoms and think it means slow down, but for a time feel better, this is how it can work.

 

If going at a snail's pace is painful and frustrating and you just want off, it might not be the worst thing you'll ever do for yourself but only you can decide. It's scary at times, the symptoms can be severe, but they passed for me as I cut.

 

Just some food for thought.

 

All the best to everyone.

m

 

Marina stated that after accidentally forgetting to take a dose of Valium one night she felt much better the next day. She then states she felt a little better with every cut and then worse towards the end of it. She also says she felt after she first came off than after 4 days into it. This immediate improvement with removing the drug and then worsening of symptoms is consistent with a direct adverse effect of the drug such as toxicity, a paradoxical effect, allergic reaction or some other side effect. Marina made the right decision for her to just move along and get off the drug. She is to be commended for recognizing what was best for her after the accidental missed dose with symptom improvement and then having the courage to speed up her taper. Marina's case should be taken seriously as there may be others who are suffering from some type of toxic or other adverse effect of the drug and will do much better plowing through and getting off the benzo. Fortunately, a minority of people seem to be have this particular problem. She appears to have followed the Ashton manual as to her taper rate. Rather the Ashton manual taper rates are fast or slow is in the eye of the beholder.

In a related vein, Ashton  and some other source (Reg Peart or TRAP I believe) state that up to 50% of people can get off benzodiazepines rapidly with little or no problems. I also saw some article (thanks to Braban) that stated around 15-44% of people have problems getting off benzos. Clearly, many people can get off quickly with minimal problems, some have big problems (many of us) and a few have some direct negative reaction to the benzodiazepine they are on. IMO these few have it the worst of all in that they must deal with drug toxicity and withdrawal symptoms at the same time. Congratulations, Marina, you are special but in a good way. Your experience may help others whose interests will best be served by just moving along with the taper. Sometimes faster is better.

Bart

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Perhaps it's true Bart, perhaps it's not, or perhaps it's more widespread than you imagine. Perhaps those tapering slowly and suffering terribly have gone toxic, or maybe they're in tolerance. Or maybe it was a coincidence and I was having a window. It would have to be tried over and over with other to reach any kind of reliable conclusion. We don't in FACT know anything other than the facts which are me + faster taper. but not overly fast = better off than with a slow, agonizing one. That's all we know and all I have to share. If were going to go with supposition, anything can be argued away. I don't want that. Totally defeats the purpose and relegates the experience to freak minority within minority disregard. I don't want that and someone can decide for themselves what's valid for them.

 

Just the facts as we know them. Nothing more.

m

[[Zi...]]

This immediate improvement with removing the drug and then worsening of symptoms is consistent with a direct adverse effect of the drug such as toxicity, a paradoxical effect, allergic reaction or some other side effect.

 

Is that the only possible explanation?

 

It is a Non-Sequitur to conclude that something is true because it is one possible explanation of many.

 

Saying it "is consistent" does not mask the logical fallacy.

[[Vr...]]

It's not paradoxical to have less issues on a lower dose.  And why is the drug's intended therapeutic effect now called a toxic side effect?  That's like saying I was feeling the side effects of the 6 beers I drank - what happened to just being drunk?

 

Less benzo still means less benzo in the body and less of the drug's desired action.  In order to taper you must decrease the dose.  I know it flies in the face of upside-down logic, but you have to stop taking the benzo, to get off the benzo. 

 

And getting off the drug quicker doesn't mean you'll pay later - another myth.  Where's the evidence?  It's just as likely an exceedingly long taper will result in a longer recovery.  Don't forget that while you taper for years, you are using for years.

 

Vribble

 

 

[[el...]]

Hey gang,

 

I just had a run in with my free shrink down at the clinic for bums.  I got kicked out so I'm doing a forced ultra rapid cut - going down from 1.25 to 0 in 2 weeks.

If this thread hasn't been shut down (.99 probability it will be shut down today or tomorrow) I'll post my opionion.

 

I'll tell you one thing, anybody who FOCUSES ON THEIR SYMPTOMS should not expect good results. Focus on the future, not the present.  Excuse me, I have to go.  My little toe hurts - a side effect of w/d.  Wake up people.  Quit thinking about your symptoms and try to live a life.  It doesn't last that long.  Your lives will be over and you'll still be focusing on symptoms.  Screw the symptoms - life happens, get over it.

 

Rise above it by Switchfoot

[[...]]

Marina

It certainly seems reasonable to me that if one course of action is not working to try something else. IMO if something is not working there has to be a specific reason. I've made 2 major changes in my tapering and a lot of minor adjustments so far. Maybe more people who are stuck in some long hold or agonizingly slow taper should take courage from you and try moving along in spite of their symptoms. Perhaps these benzodiazepines we take produce more toxic and other negative direct effects than has been reported and acknowledged. It certainly would not be the first bad thing about benzos under-appreciated by the big pharma and medical gods. I hope that if others follow your actions they will report their experiences which we can learn from. The negative tone on this thread should be reduced to not discourage other posters as this could prove to be a very important and useful thread. Personally, I get a kick and some perverse pleasure out of confrontation and debate but I keep it limited to my PM's as to avoid upsetting people who may be in a fragile state.

 

Addie

Hope you find your clubs. I did terrible golfing yesterday, obviously another benzo effect under-appreciated by the benzo gods (a$$****$). Going again this afternoon after a cut. Maybe that will help.

Bart

 

[[el...]]

Bart,

I like your post.  Arguing can be fun but the moderators don't like it (they're not supposed to like it).  I find it refreshing because it means the arguing parties are not sheep.  I say everybody argue all you want.  Let's have a riot!...

 

Elwood

[[...]]

Hi bart...

 

In regard to the Golf, LOL!!

 

And good post

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[Zi...]]

Bart,

I like your post.  Arguing can be fun but the moderators don't like it (they're not supposed to like it).  I find it refreshing because it means the arguing parties are not sheep.  I say everybody argue all you want.  Let's have a riot!...

 

Elwood

 

Looks like my work here is done! 

[[to...]]

All I know is what worked for me... and it has!!

 

Very few sxs past an hour after I wake up in the

morning and have my pot of coffee.

 

It was actually 50 degs out today and sunny. I started

my spring work and cut down 3 pine trees 30 ft tall on

my land and used a ladder to top them.

 

I don't golf but I guess my chain saw skill is ok.

 

as elwood said "Screw the symptoms - life happens, get over it"

 

 

 

 

[[el...]]

Food fight in the cafeteria at 6:00 PM!  Save the cream puffs for me...

[[...]]

Hi Tommy2,

 

excellent...

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[Ma...]]

Not the point.

 

Elwood, nah, it sucked, it was chest puffing and garbage throwing, nothing was accomplished just wasted space, not a good party.

 

Bart, while no doubt there is a reason, there is a cause to all effects, it doesn't mean it's the hypothesis you've put forward. I don't know why either. What I do know is that I've seen others speed it up, doing much bigger cuts than I ever would and faster after a miserably slow and miserable time at turtle tapering and they are reporting the same benefits, starting to be able to live again, feeling better after cuts and symptoms seeming to diminish in severity. NOT because they were part of the 50% that is fine fast tapering but because they' played out all their other options and just wanted off and voila, good times!

 

Now i am nothing if not a scientist (NOT, I'm a jazz musician, but we are a logical bunch), me standing alone blowing my little horn isn't really the purpose of anything and like I said I'm not trying to make a case... or maybe I am... or maybe I want to learn more myself. Anyhow, if you're doing this, speeding up because you got tired of crying the blues in a turtle taper and it's working for you, please, speak up. Anyone, if you know of these people, please direct them here and let's see if we can't shed some new light on this.

 

Happy trails

m

[[el...]]

All I know is what worked for me... and it has!!

 

Very few sxs past an hour after I wake up in the

morning and have my pot of coffee.

 

It was actually 50 degs out today and sunny. I started

my spring work and cut down 3 pine trees 30 ft tall on

my land and used a ladder to top them.

 

I don't golf but I guess my chain saw skill is ok.

 

as elwood said "Screw the symptoms - life happens, get over it"

 

 

Right on Dude - no fear!

[[el...]]

Marina - I like your post.  I'm supposed to run away with Hopalong Hope but I think I'll run away with you!

 

Elwood

[[to...]]

 

Adie and Elwood

 

Yep was a great distraction and I survived.

 

I'm 57 years old and felt maybe... 56.5 

 

and I couldn't tell I ever took a benzo for the afternoon.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still have issues and will for some time.

I just don't like to sit and dwell on it... ELMO

 

No much better repair than hard work and sunshine.

[[el...]]

I hear ya Dude.  Keep on truckin'

[[Ma...]]

OK

m

[[ve...]]

Verti, I know how Valium works, I'm just offering an alternative that can work despite the conventional wisdom to the contrary. How or why I do not know. If what you're doing is working for you, how wonderful is that? THen it's not broken and you've no need to consider anything else. Terrific. If you've tried everything and are still suffering terribly, here's something that worked for me that maybe you haven't considered, that's all. Again, the most important part I'm saying and it's stated in the Ashton Manual is that she noticed that her patients reported over all fewer symptoms towards the end cutting every two weeks twice what I was cutting per week, so, it's still the same rate just with a more gentle incremental glide. Yes, it's true, after a week, you're still really not fully at that dosage, but the important thing is it didn't seem to matter. Symptoms still became less, more bearable, the overall experience was manageable where previously it was not. I share this with the amazement I experienced going through it. All I did was the Ashton Manual, nothing faster, nothing breakneck. My own doctor said in his experience people would have dose related issues. DOSE RELATED, not rate of taper related and I found this to be absolutely true for me.

 

So all the best to us fighters. Eventually we'll all be done with this, nature of the beast and all. Have a good day.

m

 

No worries M.  It doesn't surprise me that some folks feel better with more rapid tapering.  We all come to this game with a different history, medical and health background, history of other meds or no meds, other health issues or not, different doses, different benzos or multiple ones... so folks will have different experiences.  I don't have any problems with you reporting on your experiences.  My only point is that in general and maybe for many, it may be wise to consider one's hearing and the possible impact of rapid tapering (however one defines it) on the inner ear (tinnitus and/or vertigo).  At least I was informed by an otoneurologist that he recommends tapering over several months even as low a dose as 2.5mg valium.  There are always going to be some exceptions where there may be some medical reason to taper off more quickly.  I'm happy you're done with your taper and feeling well .

 

Best,

 

Vertigo

[[el...]]

[move]Attention Forumees:The food fight in the cafeteria at 6:00 has been cancelled.  Stay tuned for further announcements... [/move]

[[Br...]]

Bart, while no doubt there is a reason, there is a cause to all effects, it doesn't mean it's the hypothesis you've put forward. I don't know why either. What I do know is that I've seen others speed it up, doing much bigger cuts than I ever would and faster after a miserably slow and miserable time at turtle tapering and they are reporting the same benefits, starting to be able to live again, feeling better after cuts and symptoms seeming to diminish in severity. NOT because they were part of the 50% that is fine fast tapering but because they' played out all their other options and just wanted off and voila, good times!

 

Now i am nothing if not a scientist (NOT, I'm a jazz musician, but we are a logical bunch), me standing alone blowing my little horn isn't really the purpose of anything and like I said I'm not trying to make a case... or maybe I am... or maybe I want to learn more myself. Anyhow, if you're doing this, speeding up because you got tired of crying the blues in a turtle taper and it's working for you, please, speak up. Anyone, if you know of these people, please direct them here and let's see if we can't shed some new light on this.

 

Hello Marina. In the absence of other theories I tend to go with the most likely theory.  Of course I would be interested to see any other theories.  Until other theories present themselves then toxicity to benzos seems a reasonable explanation. 

 

Toxicity to benzos occurs in migraine clinics (where a patient may develop migraine due to taking benzos and then have to wean off the benzos but do it slowly).  Similarly, toxicity to benzos can sometimes occur in patients with clinical delirium (the same weaning considerations apply).  The drug monograph for each benzo lists a large number of adverse (toxic) effects of taking the drug.  Such adverse effects usually disappear when the drug is reduced or discontinued.

 

Coming off the benzo is another matter altogether.  The existence of this forum is testament to how difficult that can sometimes be!  You seem to have managed to come off the benzos rather well, just like the majority of the population and they don't visit here.