Sometimes Faster is BETTER

[[In...]]

I think it's wonderful for those who can do some version of a rapid taper, feel good while doing it, and then be off. And I say ditto to those that do that in spite of awful withdrawl sx.

 

But I've been on BB since Nov 2011, and I guess I just don't read enough threads or something because I haven't paid much attention to or read all that "prejudice" against a rapid taper. The only thing close is advice to avoid a cold turkey or a rapid inpatient detox. And in that particular category on BB, it does advise carrying out withdrawl gradually. I suppose the term "gradually" is really relative to the person.

 

What I have seen is people worried about their sx, and asking for someone else's experiential advice on that, and others giving it. And yes, sometimes that is "advice" to consider slowing down and/or holding. And occasionally updosing is mentioned to stabilize someone for a coming taper.

 

But even Ashton advises against updosing or "giving ground" as she puts it. And the pharmaceutical literature that comes with most Rxes advises "careful and slow" tapering to get off. This is all very subjective to the individual and what they want and can tolerate IMO. I can't imagine that anyone wants to be on benzos for years doing a taper, but many factors weigh into how a taper is carried out.

 

I think again that anyone who is off and feels good about it, whether symptomatic or not should be happy and congratulated. And for those of us still on, I think we should just do what we think is best for us as we "amble along."

 

Intend

[[ey...]]

Intend to be Off:

werd!

 

eyzovblu

[[Br...]]

... IN A FASTER TAPER YOU MIGHT GO THROUGH A PERIOD INITIALLY OR LATER WHERE THE SYMPTOMS FEEL UNBEARABLE (AND I MEAN UNBEARABLE) BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING NEGATIVE AND IT IS SOMETHING YOU CAN CUT THROUGH.

 

that is CRUCIAL information I am determined to get across.

 

Hello Marina.  I would like to say that if you have had extreme withdrawal symptoms then you would know that you can NOT cut through them no matter how hard you try.

 

Have you been clinically delirious for several months? I don't mean suspected partial seizures (such as the temporal lobe epilepsy you were incorrectly diagnosed with).  I mean something far, far more sustained than a seizure though just as dysfunctional which lasts for nearly the whole day and goes on unremittingly for many months.

 

If you have experienced that and also at the same time you also experienced significant dissociation such that everyday object could no longer be made to work because you could no longer perceive them correctly then I would politely suggest you can NOT cut through them. 

 

By all means, go ahead and advocate a rapid taper if what you experience are no more than "awful" symptoms but may I suggest that when symptoms significantly affect functionality such that almost any task necessary for daily living becomes completely IMPOSSIBLE to carry out for months on end turns .... then you will find you CAN'T cut through. 

 

There are some who have been so symptomatic in benzo withdrawal that willpower and a preparedness to suffer unpleasant symptoms is NOT enough to let you cut through.

[[...]]

Hi eyzovblu,

 

Good job and congratulations...

 

 

 

Cheers,

Adie

 

 

[[Zi...]]

... IN A FASTER TAPER YOU MIGHT GO THROUGH A PERIOD INITIALLY OR LATER WHERE THE SYMPTOMS FEEL UNBEARABLE (AND I MEAN UNBEARABLE) BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING NEGATIVE AND IT IS SOMETHING YOU CAN CUT THROUGH.

 

that is CRUCIAL information I am determined to get across.

[[Br...]]

I would like to remind you that this is not your thread. It belongs to the forum and any member can post on it, you do not own it.

 

There are thousands threads that can be used to play "aint it awful" and "poor baby."

 

Everytime someone tries to start a positive thread, it is co-opted. What are people afraid of?

 

One could ask you the same question. Why are you so angry about this? I was enjoying reading this thread, and the different POVs, until you weighed in with your confrontational attitude. The only person who seems to be trying to “change the tone of the thread to a negative one” is you. No one has been arguing, but you seem intent on getting people to argue.

 

Ironically you are doing exactly what you are accusing the “slow taperers” of doing, and that is creating an imaginary divide between posters, and “co-opting” a positive thread into a negative one. You also seem to be criticising those who simply can’t do faster tapers, or saying that we are imagining how bad our symptoms can be. Or maybe you just think that we aren't tough enough to do a faster taper…….

 

As far as I’m aware I have never noticed any “holy shrine” nonsense that you are talking about. My advice to people has always been to taper the way they feel most comfortable with. If they are able to do a faster taper, good for them, but not everyone is that lucky. I do know that many people who have tried to do a faster taper on the lower doses often end up seeking help because they can’t tolerate the s/x. No one goes out and “captures” these people and tells them they must do a slower taper. These people are suffering, they ask for help and they get it.

 

Probably the reason why there appears to be an imbalance between those advocating a slower taper over a faster taper is because we are a self-selecting group of people. The people you see here are going to be the worst possible cases. Those who are able to do a faster taper probably never seek out online help. They just get on with it, and get it over and done with. The people who come to BB are the ones who are having problems because of their individual chemistry.

 

There is certainly no inevitability that those who do faster tapers are automatically going to be better off in the long run. I’ve seen many people taper fast and then suffer more symptoms after the fact. I’ve also seen people do a slower taper and slide off at the end without feeling as much as a bump. Which is better? Who knows? The end result is that, time-wise, there probably isn’t much difference, but the person who did the slower taper may have been able to get on with their lives without suffering too much while they were tapering. At the same time, sometimes those who do slower tapers feel every single cut they make, so nothing is set in stone when it comes to tapering.

 

That does not mean that I think people shouldn’t do a faster taper. If someone is lucky enough to be able to do it, without suffering too much, that’s great. Personally speaking I am not one of the lucky ones. I couldn’t even handle doing a 0.25mg valium cut. If I had persevered with that taper (which I tried to do numerous times before I came to BB and found out it wasn't the only way) there would have been a very definite chance that I would have ended my life by now because the s/x were so severe.

 

There is also absolutely no inevitability “that many who are on a slow taper suffer greatly all during the taper”. I do not have any s/x at all now. I’m doing just fine, and I have no intentions of going any faster than my body will allow me. I'm getting on with my life, and tapering to me is now just a minor inconvenience for a few minutes every night when I have to measure my dose.

 

I have also never seen any person advocating “updosing” as a general rule, as one poster suggested. From what I’ve seen everyone treats it as an absolute last resort. Unfortunately it is incorrect information like this that does create a divide and resentment between posters.

 

The bottom line is that we should all be in this together, supporting and helping each other - not creating "them and us" dramas. Everyone should taper as quickly or as slowly as they feel they can cope with, without feeling they are going to be criticised by the "opposite camp". There will never be any hard and fast rule book about tapering because we are all so different. There is no prize for being the fastest or the slowest. The only prize is being benzo-free.

 

Frankly, confrontational posts such as yours only make me angry because you are pitting people against each other, and I don’t like getting angry, because I don’t like allowing negativity into my life.

 

DP, I notice that some people in this thread were only on benzos for 2 months before they started tapering so it's perhaps 's not much of a surprise they can taper very quickly. They probably hadn't developed any significant dependency.  OTOH if you have been kindling for 5 years (after 10 previous years of dependency) then it's a very different matter!

[[ey...]]

Adie!!

 

cheers my dear

[[ey...]]

Braban.....

 

sigh. am i one of the 'lucky' ones? (see my long arsed post here on page 8  )...

 

if, and i mean IF i am not gonna have a whole passel of sxs that start with week 3, then i will feel the utmost gratitude to the Fates.....but i won't feel 'lucky'...and i realize that it's unlikely u meant to minimize what fast taper folks do go thru if it doesn't get really gnarly, but ya gotta pls consider that for me, the other stuff i've weathered over the past few years that has been peripheral or central to my drug train has been downright hideous, and if the Goddess or whatever angelic force has included me in some populous of benzo free folk who help off set the terrible suffering of others during taper or w/d then, i am serving a greater good in some way as a helpful statistic.

 

as i've said elsewhere, we are all heroes. just for one day, and then another, and another.

 

bless up

eyzovblu

 

 

[[to...]]

[Guest [Ce...]]

[[Zi...]]

There is something I would like to add, and I can't stress it strongly enough, it is my experience, which doesn't make it a one size fits all protocol, but makes it likely that others might find this to be the case as well:

 

Because I didn't consider slowing down an option for a few reasons (I wanted off and I felt my doctor was not going to to support a long drawn out affair) I CUT THROUGH SYMPTOMS, VERY DIFFICULT SYMPTOMS, AND THEY DISAPPEARED.

 

In order to listen to your body, you have to know what it's saying.

 

ASSUMING SYMPTOMS ARE A SIGN YOU MUST SLOW DOWN CAN BE FALSE.

 

No matter how many times I say this, it is ignored and it is the corner stone of what I'm trying to say.

 

Just because you're having symptoms does not mean you have to hold, THEY MIGHT VERY WELL GO AWAY WITH THE NEXT CUT. IF NOT THAT ONE, THEN TWO CUTS DOWN THE LINE.

 

I remember having one terrible, terrifying day around 5.5mgs (i'd have to go to my blog to check). I didn't slow down, I did not hold, I NEVER had a day like that again. Never.

 

I am offering an alternative perspective that is an important one though by no means a directive.

 

it is however my experience, which makes it valid. If you don't try it, you can't possibly know whether or not it will work for you. That is your risk, your choice. I'm so happy I did it this way.

 

HOLDING DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A RESPONSE TO SYMPTOMS.

 

That's all, but it's the most important thing I have to say. It may not be necessary to come off symptom free at all.

 

That's it, I'm off, have a wonderful day.

m

[[...]]

Hi Marina,

 

As mentioned before come back from time to time and let us know how you are doing...

Your post topic was very important.

 

Cheers

Adie

[[No...]]

Tapers shouldn't be too slow or too fast. Reducing 1mg every 2 weeks should be ok.

[[Zi...]]

... IN A FASTER TAPER YOU MIGHT GO THROUGH A PERIOD INITIALLY OR LATER WHERE THE SYMPTOMS FEEL UNBEARABLE (AND I MEAN UNBEARABLE) BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING NEGATIVE AND IT IS SOMETHING YOU CAN CUT THROUGH.

 

that is CRUCIAL information I am determined to get across.

[[...]]

Hey Braban

My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off. Remember Lizzy, I think she went by idl, who had toxicity to Valium and didn't start feeling better until she was off the drug. She championed the cold turkey or fast taper and had some interesting exchanges with Oscar for a while. Although I believe they are in the minority, at least these people found what was best for them. I do agree with you this in an uncommon occurrence and for many people is misguided advice and will prove disastrous. Different strokes for different folks, there are many paths to the top of the mountain and all that. I have the afternoon off and am going golfing now. For my healing today, I'm planning not to think about benzos for the rest of the day.

Bart

[[Zi...]]

Hey Braban

My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off. Remember Lizzy, I think she went by idl, who had toxicity to Valium and didn't start feeling better until she was off the drug. She championed the cold turkey or fast taper and had some interesting exchanges with Oscar for a while. Although I believe they are in the minority, at least these people found what was best for them. I do agree with you this in an uncommon occurrence and for many people is misguided advice and will prove disastrous. Different strokes for different folks, there are many paths to the top of the mountain and all that.

Bart

 

Nobody has any idea what is normal or what the "minority" view is because this forum is not a representative sample of the general population.

 

There is a vocal group here who worship at the altar of the painfully slow taper. Marina and I are not among them. It is foolish to cast us in the role of odd balls just because we do not sign up to the conventional wisdom. That view may be conventional, but is not necessarily wisdom.

 

As far as I can tell Marina was trying to convey information that might be helpful to others. She has been criticized for trying to be helpful.

 

We are expected to be understanding of the viewpoint of others while we are vilified for our own viewpoint. Why not just come right out and say you hope we will fail so our view will be discredited?

[[...]]

HI bart,

 

I can’t find my golf clubs...I placed my hat on top of my driver but I can’t find my hat either   

 

Cheers,

Adie

[[Di...]]

Why not just come right out and say you hope we will fail so our view will be discredited?

 

Oh good lord Zig Zag. What is your problem?  Who on earth wants to discredit your view?  All I'm seeing here are people saying "Different strokes for different folks". No one is wishing you ill, but you seem to want to create an environment of confrontation.

 

It could well be the case that in the real world the majority of people can do faster tapers, but we don't know that because we have a very self-selected group of people on this forum, where faster tapers are NOT the norm. That doesn't mean that they can't be done. It's just that most people on this forum are the tough cases who CAN'T do faster tapers. Do you understand that at all?

 

You are implying that we have no compassion for your situation, yet where is your compassion for ours? If you are able to do a faster taper, more power to you, but I'm getting really tired of the antagonism that you are displaying here.

 

No one has criticised Marina for her POV – just given a different POV. I didn’t want to contradict Marina when she said that you didn’t start the conflict, because in a way she was right. There was no disharmony until Vribble came along, but you certainly picked up the ball straight after that post and ran with it. Before that there were no problems at all.

 

If anyone is to blame for this thread becoming negative, and creating a divide between posters, it’s you, and that’s exactly what seems to happen whenever there is a thread made like this. I’ve seen these types of threads before, and it’s funny that the slow taperers always seem to get the blame for everything, yet the problems always seem to start when a fast taperer starts to get snarky about things.

 

Maybe if we ALL started to have compassion and respect for each other’s POV there wouldn’t need to be so much antagonism here.

 

[[In...]]

Why does anyone else even care about how someone tapers unless it might in someway help them?

 

This doesn't seem to be a "rocket science" POV to me. Taper anyway your little heart desires.

 

Go fast, go slow, go super fast, go super slow. Drop the benzo altogether if you feel you must, or microtaper if that is your method of choice and preference. Opinion here, not orders.

 

We all have some autonomy here, or did those who feel so picked on forget that? Who's twisting your arm to not rapid taper if you want? Be self-empowered. Take the bull by the horns. Whatever.

 

Get off the benzo if you so choose by whatever means you so desire, and let others do the same. Opinion here, not orders.

 

Complainers here seem like a bunch of 2 year olds IMO. If you feel so persecuted by BB as I have read in the past posts, why are you still on here?

 

Intend

[[Vr...]]

My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest this is the case?  There's nothing paradoxical about her symptoms decreasing with less drug.  It's no mystery that her condition improved when she continued to lower the dose in spite of sxs  Why is she in the minority?

 

Only in some reverse universe does less drug mean more wd sxs and tapering means never actually discontinuing the drug.  Some tapers look more like a love affair with the drug - never having to say, "goodbye".

 

The taper is simply a means to an end, the discontinuation of the drug - not the start of a tortured romance.

 

Vribble   

 

 

[[In...]]

If I recall, Marina said she "plowed through" some pretty awful withdrawl sx to get off. I guess she chose to do that.

 

Anyone can choose to do that. Others would rather feel less uncomfortable if they can and know how to avoid it. And still others must try to avoid awful withdrawl if they can as they must work and support themselves and their families.

 

This is a lot about choice as far as I can see, and I say exercise it, and avoid criticizing others for theirs.

 

And from my POV, the criticizers are the rapid taperers who somehow feel persecuted for exercising their choice.

 

Who is persecuting and or criticizing you? Do you really need the affirmations of so many others to act on your own?

 

Truly amazing.

 

Intend

[[Lu...]]

[move] [/move]

 

Diaz Pam You Go Girl!

 

I have to agree. Zigzag, sometimes you can be a little harsh with your POV.  Best to contribute rather than s**t disturb purposely.

 

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.

Plato

Don’t play the fool ZigZag.

 

Now I have to agree with Pianogirl.  A moderator posted this somewhere I think on this thread and I plagiarized and this is what I came up with. The Addiction Doc liked it so much she asked to keep it. So don’t doubt yourselves here. We are the experts. We know our own bodies\minds.  I posted this under taper plans as well.  Yes some of us here are "Benzo toxic" for lack of a better phrase and proof of this is the rashes, hives and intolerable headaches.  These are not so much withdrawal symptoms.  Especially when present shortly after taking the drugs or developing an "allergy" like condition over time.  These are symptoms that are common side effects of many if not the majority of drugs. It is well documented even for erectile dysfunction drugs advertised on U.S. TV.  Wonder why they pulled the Lunesta ads? 

 

I know this to be true as I am feeling better as I go down.  I have read this in threads.  I must balance the drops with the discomfort as I know what rapid withdrawal feels like as many of us here. Double jeopardy applies here. We are punished twice over.  I deliberately pushed my taper as fast as possible. Hopefully, now that I am down low, I will push to see if the discomfort is tolerable and jump at .5 or greater depending on how I feel.  It is a balancing act.  Especially if you are in withdrawal and suffer from the adverse effects as listed on the drug monogram.  If I ever have to take another drug, you can be certain, I will do my research.

 

However you get there, what is important is you arrive…..

 

I asked this:

 

Agree with this statement?

 

"As a general rule, patients should taper as rapidly as they feel they can within reason and within their ability to function. I had a long taper (in retrospect, too long). I did so in the hope of keeping my symptoms minimal so I could continue to function. Tolerance of symptoms is very subjective. We might have patients who are working and cannot tolerate many symptoms at all, in which case they may opt for a slower taper. Other patients who may not be working or taking care of children may opt for a more rapid taper and white knuckle the symptoms."

 

"The most important thing is to do what's best for you, keeping in mind that it may take a little trial and error to figure that out".

 

My question on the fear of protracted withdrawal:

 

She agreed that while tapering we are in a "protracted withdrawal" already. Only we are in a perpetual withdrawal state. Funny I used this upon arriving here. The protracted is how quickly the body heals. Assisting with this is exercise, getting back into life, thought process and not to have underlying issues. You are how you feel. So, diet, exercise, healthy mind, lifestyle. Common sense. There are no shortcuts. The percentage that have lengthy protracted withdrawal even for us difficult tapers is small. Better odds in Vegas. Play craps, better odds than Blackjack…Every game has different odds and every person does. As long as we are progessing we are (as Charlies says), "Winning".

 

Can’t wait for a steak and the words “coming out”!

 

[[Zi...]]

My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest this is the case?  There's nothing paradoxical about her symptoms decreasing with less drug.  It's no mystery that her condition improved when she continued to lower the dose in spite of sxs  Why is she in the minority?

 

Only in some reverse universe does less drug mean more wd sxs and tapering means never actually discontinuing the drug.  Some tapers look more like a love affair with the drug - never having to say, "goodbye".

 

The taper is simply a means to an end, the discontinuation of the drug - not the start of a tortured romance.

 

Vribble 

[[Zi...]]

My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest this is the case?  There's nothing paradoxical about her symptoms decreasing with less drug.  It's no mystery that her condition improved when she continued to lower the dose in spite of sxs  Why is she in the minority?

 

Only in some reverse universe does less drug mean more wd sxs and tapering means never actually discontinuing the drug.  Some tapers look more like a love affair with the drug - never having to say, "goodbye".

 

The taper is simply a means to an end, the discontinuation of the drug - not the start of a tortured romance.

 

Vribble 

[[Zi...]]

My guess is Marina had some sort of paradoxical effect from or toxicity to Valium and just needed to hurry and get off.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest this is the case?  There's nothing paradoxical about her symptoms decreasing with less drug.  It's no mystery that her condition improved when she continued to lower the dose in spite of sxs  Why is she in the minority?

 

Only in some reverse universe does less drug mean more wd sxs and tapering means never actually discontinuing the drug.  Some tapers look more like a love affair with the drug - never having to say, "goodbye".

 

The taper is simply a means to an end, the discontinuation of the drug - not the start of a tortured romance.

 

Vribble