Sometimes Faster is BETTER

[[pi...]]

Telling them to reinstate and taper for 6 months just sounds ridiculous but you see it all the time.  (Just my opinion) 

 

ChinaDoll

 

 

 

Hi ChinaDoll,

 

We on the staff here at BB strongly advise people who are short term benzo users to taper off as quickly as possible. We try to make them understand that they may be symptomatic but that it should be short lived.  There is really no good sense in giving the body a chance to become dependent, as we know with long term use this will happen.

 

pianogirl

[[pi...]]

My appeal  is for balance. The only opinion that is not tolerated on BB seems to be the opinion that a rapid taper is bad.

 

I do not believe that fast tapers are not tolerated here at BB. I did not join BB until I had finished my taper and had only the Ashton Manual as a guide. Since I was on very low doses, but extremely symptomatic with tolerance effects, it was difficult to follow the guidelines in the manual. My doctor was learning along with me.  At times I did as much as a 50% cut.  I made it through my taper and was hit hard after I jumped off.  For this reason I do advise a slow taper, I probably would have used one had I been aware of this forum and made use of the information here. Everyone must find the method that works best for them. If someone is having a really bad time with an agressive taper of course we might suggest that they slow down. If a faster taper works then I am happy for that person. Our major goal here is to provide support for everyone. 

 

pianogirl

[[me...]]

Hi,

 

I did a fast taper of about two months, after 13 years on xanax.  Because I crossed over to valium, with its longer half life, my symptoms smoothed out, and my taper was relatively easy and uneventful.  For me, it worked quite well.  Everyone is different.

 

[[Me...]]

I'm fine with rapid tapers,  if they work.  I'm fine with anything that works.  As long as we arn't prescribing a one size fits all approach to tapering.  I know for myself listening to my body has worked best,  It may not work for you, but it does for me  Tapering is such an individual thing.  We try different methods to see works best for our self.  I know I tried a c/t and a fast taper and neither of them worked.  So I tried a c/o and a slow taper and found out that it works best...............for me  

 

So maybe speeding up your taper might work or maybe it won't.  As long as you just keep trying you'll find your own way to recovery. 

[[Zi...]]

We on the staff here at BB strongly advise people who are short term benzo users to taper off as quickly as possible.

 

Very telling. So the advice only applies to short term users? Nobody knows this to be true because there are no scientific studies that support this idea. It is, however, the conventional wisdom on the BB forum. QED

 

Marina, who started this thread, is not a short term user. I think your statement is evidence that the BB conventional wisdom is heavily weighted to the ultra slow taper method, which we have no evidence is the best technique for all users. 

 

Newbies are always pointed to the Ashton Manual, where Heather Ashton gives "slow taper" schedules. These schedules are fast by BB standards.

 

 

[[Ma...]]

There is something I would like to add, and I can't stress it strongly enough, it is my experience, which doesn't make it a one size fits all protocol, but makes it likely that others might find this to be the case as well:

 

Because I didn't consider slowing down an option for a few reasons (I wanted off and I felt my doctor was not going to to support a long drawn out affair) I CUT THROUGH SYMPTOMS, VERY DIFFICULT SYMPTOMS, AND THEY DISAPPEARED.

 

In order to listen to your body, you have to know what it's saying.

 

ASSUMING SYMPTOMS ARE A SIGN YOU MUST SLOW DOWN CAN BE FALSE.

 

No matter how many times I say this, it is ignored and it is the corner stone of what I'm trying to say.

 

Just because you're having symptoms does not mean you have to hold, THEY MIGHT VERY WELL GO AWAY WITH THE NEXT CUT. IF NOT THAT ONE, THEN TWO CUTS DOWN THE LINE.

 

I remember having one terrible, terrifying day around 5.5mgs (i'd have to go to my blog to check). I didn't slow down, I did not hold, I NEVER had a day like that again. Never.

 

I am offering an alternative perspective that is an important one though by no means a directive.

 

it is however my experience, which makes it valid. If you don't try it, you can't possibly know whether or not it will work for you. That is your risk, your choice. I'm so happy I did it this way.

 

HOLDING DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A RESPONSE TO SYMPTOMS.

 

That's all, but it's the most important thing I have to say. It may not be necessary to come off symptom free at all.

 

That's it, I'm off, have a wonderful day.

m

[[to...]]

Some have the option to c/o to V and it was suggested to me because

of interdose problems from X. I don't have that option. Frankly I didn't

like the idea after seeing how long the taper draws out and problems

that people post about the c/o and use of V and in the end still have

withdrawal problems. Case in point that really opened my eyes below.

This went on for over 2 years...not interested. This case makes for an

interesting read. It's long but worth the knowledge.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=958.0

 

Now I'm this far down the road I am not going to substitute a taper off

V in micro doses for longer than I feel I will be tapering xanax. Yes I have

had persistent sys but they are getting less each week. I just take it as it

comes. It does improve with time. I don't want a longer half life...I want it

OUT of my life ASAP. We do heal as we go. No matter how we taper.

 

I have not been around long but I have read a lot and been down the benzo

road a long time. I made some bad decisions trying to stop. The one size does

not fit all is very true. BUT there is too much emphasis put on certain methods

or strategies that lead to the same end result. Symptomatic for a long or short time.

 

In this type of situation all input is good. If one method works for some and another

works for others as long as the end result is the same so be it.

 

I said this before and believe in it 100% The longer you keep the drug in your system

the longer the dependency. Especially psychological, even if physical dependency and

sys are reduce and not truly gone after tapering for a long period of time.

 

Marina, just read your reply before I posted this.

 

I have to say I agree 100% IMHO.

 

[[Zi...]]

Frankly I didn't

like the idea after seeing how long the taper draws out and problems

that people post about the c/o and use of V and in the end still have

withdrawal problems.

 

I'm not sure I understand. It seems there are two issues here:

1. Change over to Valium

2. Rate of taper

 

These are two separate issues. Changing over to Valium does not require you to do a micro taper. Some people do a micro taper from Xanax. Some people do a rapid taper from Valium.

 

So that newbies are not confused: The decision to change over to Valium is independent from the decision about how fast to taper.

 

This is a good example showing how the experience of a few can get blown out of proportion.

 

I have no horse in this race. I don't care whether people change over to Valium or not. I don't care whether people opt for a fast or a slow taper. All each of can do is tell our stories. None of us has the right answer. In a perfect world, some well designed, impartial, randomized studies would be done to guide us. Even then, the guidance be would statistical only, telling us what works for most, but not necessarily for all.

[[Ch...]]

Hi ChinaDoll,

 

We on the staff here at BB strongly advise people who are short term benzo users to taper off as quickly as possible. We try to make them understand that they may be symptomatic but that it should be short lived.  There is really no good sense in giving the body a chance to become dependent, as we know with long term use this will happen.

 

pianogirl

 

Hi Pianogirl,

 

I was not trying to say you were and I am sorry if my comment was misunderstood.  It is just that I have seen this more then once and was really hoping a moderator or team member would post just what you said.  I know people mean well. 

 

And I don't think quicker tapers are not tolerated but just not as well supported if someone decides to go that route.  For me it was not optional to go slower and I am glad of that.  I did have wicked symptoms the last month of my taper and the first month off but they have become more manageable.  I was worried that I was setting myself up for protracted withdrawal but that does not thankfully seem to be the case.

 

Marina.. I am glad you were able to push thru and come out on the other side.  There is something about having that little benzo free ticker ticking away that is very liberating!! 

 

China

 

PS Tommy2... I like to poke around in the archives too.. lot of good info down there... 

[[pi...]]

Hi ChinaDoll,

 

We on the staff here at BB strongly advise people who are short term benzo users to taper off as quickly as possible. We try to make them understand that they may be symptomatic but that it should be short lived.  There is really no good sense in giving the body a chance to become dependent, as we know with long term use this will happen.

 

pianogirl

 

Hi Pianogirl,

 

I was not trying to say you were and I am sorry if my comment was misunderstood.  It is just that I have seen this more then once and was really hoping a moderator or team member would post just what you said.  I know people mean well. 

 

And I don't think quicker tapers are not tolerated but just not as well supported if someone decides to go that route.  For me it was not optional to go slower and I am glad of that.  I did have wicked symptoms the last month of my taper and the first month off but they have become more manageable.  I was worried that I was setting myself up for protracted withdrawal but that does not thankfully seem to be the case.

 

Marina.. I am glad you were able to push thru and come out on the other side.  There is something about having that little benzo free ticker ticking away that is very liberating!! 

 

China

 

PS Tommy2... I like to poke around in the archives too.. lot of good info down there... 

 

Hi ChinaDoll,

 

I just wanted to clarify our feelings on short time use, no problem.  We as a team have discussed this issue and try to be prompt and timely responding to someone who is a short time user. 

 

It is possible that people who do a rapid taper and recovery fairly quickly do not even come to Benzo Buddies.  There is a large section of benzo users that can withdrawal quicker with no prolonged symptoms. I wish everyone could be in that group, I wish I had been in that group.

 

I am happy to hear that you are recovering well, my warmest wishes to you.

 

pianogirl

[[to...]]

ZigZag

 

I did combine both issues in my statement, sorry for confusion.

 

I was simply referring to the method most posted and promoted here with

regards to c/o and tapering V. Of course the rate can be each persons choice.

I have also read the many problems people get from attempting the c/o. I also

read many fail that c/o and get sicker.

 

I have no interest in compounding my problem, especially since I am improving

at my pace. The conventional wisdom with V is to slow down taper to reduce or

manage sys because of longer half life thus the c/o which fosters the longer taper.

 

From your signature...

Was on a rapid taper until I joined benzo buddies, read the stories, became frightened, and slowed down.

 

That is the main reason for my c/o statement. I'm not in a horse race either.

But I am moving forward and not looking back. I read the Ashton manual a

couple of years ago. It promotes the V c/o and slow. I didn't like the idea then

and don't now.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

 

[[je...]]

Well I am very happy for you Marina.  I had to quit coming on here very often because I do agree there are alot of horror stories and I noticed I would get the sxs I read about.  I held for a while... felt horrible... did a 33% cut and have noticed I am feeling better so I agree with you.  Sometimes slowly just prolonges the misery imo.

[[Me...]]

I look at for what it is...a war with the drug and your body.

 

In war you advance as fast as the resistance allows you and

never give up ground you have taken.

 

If you hit resistance (the enemy benzo) slow down and fight

through the resistance and keep moving forward.

 

Good topic Marina,

 

well said

[[Ma...]]

Still not quite what I'm saying. If you meet with resistance, hold your ground and keep marching. The enemy might be a mirage, the enemy might have little hold, it might dissolve into dust. No need to stand still to fight a ghost with a good game.

m

[[Me...]]

The only thing is that there is no way of telling if the rate of taper determines the time it takes to fully recover.  A fast taper may mean longer recovery time.  Or a fast taper may mean a quicker recovery.  I don't know.  Its impossible to say. 

 

I say go at rate you want too.  As long as your consistent and determined you'll be fine.

[[Vr...]]

Marina, I couldn't agree with you more.  Thanks for your insightful and courageous post.  As ZigZag pointed out, there's a bit of an urban legend here surrounding the Holy Slow Taper.  Anything else is heresy.  The creed includes a dire prediction, the curse of PAWS, months or years later for anyone who dares to taper rapidly.  Unbelievers will suffer torment in their version of a benzo afterlife.

 

The Holy Order also allows updosing - what's that about?  How did updosing become somehow acceptable and a rapid taper not?  Isn't our goal, the actual discontinuation of the drug?  Isn't the taper just a means to an end? And shouldn't we be going down, not up, in dose.

 

When fine-tuning, tweaking, and refining the taper becomes our goal, discontinuing use of the drug becomes secondary, a long forgotten good intention that now paves the road to the benzo underworld.  Anyone not using, or commiserating with protracted wd sxs and using by proxy, is viewed with disfavor by hardened taperers, chronic users, and assorted benzo enthusiasts.

 

I can't quote Ashton chapter and verse, but the simple truth is that less benzo is better than more benzo, and once you discontinue the drug, you'll recover in a matter of weeks or a few months, not years.

 

On the path to recovery, let's not stop and build a shrine to the process.

 

vribblius terribilius

 

 

[[da...]]

I did a slow, grueling taper off 5mgs Valium...it took me more than a year.  This, after a painful c/t off Lexapro.  I never had a window and holding when the nightmare became unbearable did not help.  Furthermore I jumped at .25 mgs which I was told was foolish.  I am now protracted so the snail's pace did nothing but prolong my misery.  Because of my age (67) I wish had I gone faster.  I don't have a 'full life' ahead of me like most people on this forum.  My thought is that if I had sped it up, I might have been able to enjoy these so called 'Golden Years' instead of spending them in the southern tip of Hell.  Many things have improved but physical symptoms are still brutal.

 

That being said, I know many people have had a smoother ride with a slow taper. (and who really knows if it was the taper or just their chemisty?)  It's just not a one size fits all package.

 

Donna

[[Br...]]

I wonder if withdrawal symptoms are not a reliable guide to what healing is taking place.

 

Of course if withdrawal symptoms are totally unbearable then they put a cap on how fast you can taper.  However the absence of symptoms may NOT indicate that healing is taking place .... and this would reveal itself as the taper continued by a flare up of symptoms.

 

To give an example, let's suppose you can't taper any faster because you would get an unbearable headache.  However then you discover that painkillers can hold the headache back and so (in the absence of other troublesome symptoms) this let's you taper faster.  This means you were restricting the rate of taper due to symptoms which did not genuiney reflect problems with healing.

 

This may account for how several people (not Marina) will sadly taper very quickly and then jump from a low dose but a few weeks later they experience a massive rebound and have to reinstate.  One BenzoBuddy recently jumped from 0.5mg diazepam following a confident brisk taper and had to reinstate on 3mg Ativan which is equivalent to 30mg diazepam!

 

In Marina's case I suspect she may have been one of those who is able to come off benzos relatively easy compared to others and that her symptoms were not a good guide to her healing which is what she found out.

 

I know Marina has explained her symptoms were tough and she struggled to get through but she DID manage to push through them ... I can assure you that no matter how hard I have pushed it has been totally impossible to get past my symptoms.  I get exceedingly severe symptoms which prevent me looking after my most basic daily needs if I go any faster than a modest rate of 7 to 8% a month.

[[Zi...]]

Marina, I couldn't agree with you more.  Thanks for your insightful and courageous post.  As ZigZag pointed out, there's a bit of an urban legend here surrounding the Holy Slow Taper.  Anything else is heresy.  The creed includes a dire prediction, the curse of PAWS, months or years later for anyone who dares to taper rapidly.  Unbelievers will suffer torment in their version of a benzo afterlife.

 

The Holy Order also allows updosing - what's that about?  How did updosing become somehow acceptable and a rapid taper not?  Isn't our goal, the actual discontinuation of the drug?  Isn't the taper just a means to an end? And shouldn't we be going down, not up, in dose.

 

When fine-tuning, tweaking, and refining the taper becomes our goal, discontinuing use of the drug becomes secondary, a long forgotten good intention that now paves the road to the benzo underworld.  Anyone not using, or commiserating with protracted wd sxs and using by proxy, is viewed with disfavor by hardened taperers, chronic users, and assorted benzo enthusiasts.

 

I can't quote Ashton chapter and verse, but the simple truth is that less benzo is better than more benzo, and once you discontinue the drug, you'll recover in a matter of weeks or a few months, not years.

 

On the path to recovery, let's not stop and build a shrine to the process.

 

vribblius terribilius

 

Bump 

[[Wi...]]

I wonder if withdrawal symptoms are not a reliable guide to what healing is taking place.

 

Of course if withdrawal symptoms are totally unbearable then they put a cap on how fast you can taper.  However the absence of symptoms may NOT indicate that healing is taking place .... and this would reveal itself as the taper continued by a flare up of symptoms.

 

To give an example, let's suppose you can't taper any faster because you would get an unbearable headache.  However then you discover that painkillers can hold the headache back and so (in the absence of other troublesome symptoms) this let's you taper faster.  This means you were restricting the rate of taper due to symptoms which did not genuiney reflect problems with healing.

 

This may account for how several people (not Marina) will taper very briskly and then jump from a low dose but a few weeks later experience a massive rebound and reinstate.  One BenzoBuddy recently jumped from 0.5mg diazepam after a brisk taper and had to reinstate on 3mg Ativan which is equivalent to 30mg diazepam!

 

In Marina's case I suspect she may have been one of those who is able to come off benzos relatively easy compared to others and that her symptoms were not a good guide to her healing as she found out.

 

I know Marina has explained her symptoms were tough and she struggled to get through but she DID manage to push through them ... I can assure you that no matter how hard I have pushed it is totally impossible to get past my symptoms.  I get these severe symptoms if I go any faster than a modest rate of 7% or 8% a month.

 

I'm right there with you Braban

[[Wi...]]

Marina, I couldn't agree with you more.  Thanks for your insightful and courageous post.  As ZigZag pointed out, there's a bit of an urban legend here surrounding the Holy Slow Taper.  Anything else is heresy.  The creed includes a dire prediction, the curse of PAWS, months or years later for anyone who dares to taper rapidly.  Unbelievers will suffer torment in their version of a benzo afterlife.

 

The Holy Order also allows updosing - what's that about?  How did updosing become somehow acceptable and a rapid taper not?  Isn't our goal, the actual discontinuation of the drug?  Isn't the taper just a means to an end? And shouldn't we be going down, not up, in dose.

 

When fine-tuning, tweaking, and refining the taper becomes our goal, discontinuing use of the drug becomes secondary, a long forgotten good intention that now paves the road to the benzo underworld.  Anyone not using, or commiserating with protracted wd sxs and using by proxy, is viewed with disfavor by hardened taperers, chronic users, and assorted benzo enthusiasts.

 

I can't quote Ashton chapter and verse, but the simple truth is that less benzo is better than more benzo, and once you discontinue the drug, you'll recover in a matter of weeks or a few months, not years.

 

On the path to recovery, let's not stop and build a shrine to the process.

 

vribblius terribilius

 

Bump 

"an urban legend here surrounding the Holy Slow Taper and "Anyone not using, or commiserating with protracted wd sxs and using by proxy, is viewed with disfavor by hardened taperers, chronic users, and assorted benzo enthusiasts" What the f*** is that?!?  If you can taper faster and you want to then DO it.  I don't fault you because you can, don't fault me because I can't. I'm sorry you got scared into doing a taper that was slower then you found necessary. 

 

You seem awfully angry using terms like  "let's not stop and build a shrine to the process" and a long forgotten good intention that now paves the road to the benzo underworld.  This is a support site for people trying to make their way through this.  Aside from Ashton, there are few studies and no real science on how to successfully navigate this.  If you found a way to successfully w/d from this drug, just be friggen grateful.

[[Ma...]]

If people could express themselves without others taking it personally, that would be better.

 

Please, no fighting.

 

m

[[Zi...]]

If people could express themselves without others taking it personally, that would be better.

 

Please, no fighting.

 

m

 

Marina, The worshippers at the altar of the slow taper are not about to let have a thread of our own.

[[Br...]]

In fact, the knowledge that one person succeeded with a rapid taper disproves the BB theory that everybody should taper at a very slow rate.

 

Hello ZigZag.  This group does not propound the "theory that everybody should taper at a very slow rate".  The advice given is that everybody should taper at a rate which suits them.

 

If I may say so, your posts seem unduly confrontational.  I hope you take this in the right way but I wonder if you are trying to provoke an argument although I honestly can't see what you expect to gain from it.

[[Di...]]

However anyone can get off benzos, whether it works better for them to taper fast or slow...getting off is what really matters.

 

I'm happy for someone who could taper quickly and get off, even though, for me, I don't think I could do it fast.  I think I would run into issues.  Course, maybe part of it is psychological.

 

My doc tapered me off of narcotic pain med very fast, and it was a nightmare for me....that's where part of my fear of fast-tapering stems from.  As a matter of fact, that's how I got on benzos, was to help getting off narcotics.