Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Be...]]

After being away for a few days I stopped in and noticed some discussion about holding when symptoms become too difficult.  The two times that I got into trouble so far during my micro taper I actually updosed to the dose I was at a few days earlier.  After that, I immediately started micro tapering at a lower rate.  This technique worked for me and may work for others who seem to not stabilize at the dose where they run into trouble.  I like the earlier post that talked about micro tapering being like a ramp and that we need to figure out the angle.  If we are micro tapering too fast then I believe we get ahead of the "healing point" and the withdrawal symptoms become unmanageable.  After "stabilizing" at a lower taper rate I was able to increase the taper rate again, but at a smaller increment.  I am now tapering at a rate that feels like the limit for me since my symptoms do come and go in waves.  When I was at the lowest taper rate I almost didn't notice any symptoms and that prompted me to experiment with faster taper rates.  Sorry to ramble but thought this might trigger some others to chime in with experience with holding versus updosing and finding a taper rate that works best.

[[We...]]

After being away for a few days I stopped in and noticed some discussion about holding when symptoms become too difficult.  The two times that I got into trouble so far during my micro taper I actually updosed to the dose I was at a few days earlier.  After that, I immediately started micro tapering at a lower rate.  This technique worked for me and may work for others who seem to not stabilize at the dose where they run into trouble.  I like the earlier post that talked about micro tapering being like a ramp and that we need to figure out the angle.  If we are micro tapering too fast then I believe we get ahead of the "healing point" and the withdrawal symptoms become unmanageable.  After "stabilizing" at a lower taper rate I was able to increase the taper rate again, but at a smaller increment.  I am now tapering at a rate that feels like the limit for me since my symptoms do come and go in waves.  When I was at the lowest taper rate I almost didn't notice any symptoms and that prompted me to experiment with faster taper rates.  Sorry to ramble but thought this might trigger some others to chime in with experience with holding versus updosing and finding a taper rate that works best.

 

thanks, Ben. you are not rambling. it helps us all to learn from one another. thanks for sharing this. because I haven't started to microtaper yet and I want to know ALL I CAN. hehe. what dose are you tapering at now? I'm glad you are finding your groove with the taper. I hope I will be able to as well. talk soon

wcan16

[[Kg...]]

We Can if you look at Ben's signature he gives you his taper rates at various times - it looks like he started at .002 went up to .003 and now is doing .004 mg per day.  I know for me I couldn't do that much so I do .001 per day.  I would suggest you start there with a few holds put in - then you can go faster depending on how your body reacts to the taper rate -  as Ben said - you want to have it be like a ramp not a stair case.  Slow and steady.  If it bothers you just slow it down - it is the beauty of a daily taper - you aren't shocking your body by up dosing the little you took off the day before or just doing a hold for a couple of days and then going on with your taper or slowing it down.  The reverse is also true - if you do great you can go faster as you tolerate the cuts. 

[[Gy...]]

Hi Gypsy, welcome to the group.

 

I'm so happy you are feeling better since all of that horribleness of years ago.

 

It will be nice to touch base with you and support one another through this process.

 

Looking fwd to it. have a nice night

 

Wcan16

 

Wcan

 

Thanks for the welcome, I noticed reading your sig that yours is very similar to mine with the A, I could never stabilise on A due to interdose withdrawals the doc I had at the time didn't no squat about benzo's and even tried every SSRI know to man that was an even bigger nightmare until I put my foot down and said I wouldnt take them, then when I kept asking about the horrid effects I was feeling doc tried to palm me off to psych ward ahh no way doc. So I got on computer and did my own research into the dreaded Ativan and realised I was in deep shit. Anyway found a new doc who crossed me over to v although she wanted me on a high dose I stupidly refused(not knowing how bad it would be) and went straight to 5 mg of v that's the price I paid for being so stubborn.

 

Anyways that is all behind me thank god! Things can only look up on the way down. Will hold at 3.78 mg v until things settle a bit more don't want to push it.

 

Luv n hugs

 

Gypsy

[[an...]]

Hi Everyone,

 

It sounds like you are all doing well with your tapers.  Mine is also going well. Right now I am tapering 0.005 mg/day.  By Monday, I will have tapered about 9% of my daily dose. I will need to slow down the taper rate in a few weeks, but I am fine with that. This will be a very slow taper--probably will not finish for about a year. It is worth it though to be almost symptom free during the taper. I am feeling very positive about this.

 

Moodle, I am glad you did not need the root canal.  I went on Tuesday, and my doctor could not see the canals because they are very narrow, so I go to a specialist tomorrow to see if something can be done. I do not think I will take the prescribed valium tomorrow since I did take one on Tuesday for my appointment.  I am very nervous about it, but it has to be done.

 

WeCan, you are so positive about your taper.  I know you will be successful. Just keep asking questions when you need to.  I have been through this before so I feel good about finally tapering now that the alcohol is no longer an issue.

 

Everyone have a great day!!!

 

Anne

[[an...]]

Moodle,

 

Congratulations on that last bottle!!  You are almost there

[[an...]]

Gypsy,

 

Welcome to the group.  Sharkey started this just over a week ago, and it is my favorite group on the site. Plenty of positive support here.

Good luck with your taper.

[[sh...]]

Moodle, Wow last bottle.  Think about that, never have to go back to the pharmacy for a benzo again!!

 

Ben, Good stuff man, thanks for sharing your experience.  Love the ramp analogy and also what you said about the "healing point."  Although up dosing can be beneficial, I always recommend a good hold for a while before considering an updose.  This is especially true with a slow daily taper because if you are doing it correctly and slow enough, the symptoms are nothing a good hold can't handle in a short period of time.  IMO you dont want to do too much back and forth while tapering, it will confuse the mind and body.

 

Kgirl,  Some great advice there!

 

WeCan16, Keep that attitude about your taper and you will do just fine!

 

SmallRed, So glad you are feeling better!  I think you will be glad you decided to go the titration route.  It has worked great for me.

 

Gypsy, great idea to hold.  I have read a lot about people having trouble when they get to the lower doses of V.  When you start tapering again just take it slow!

 

Anne, congratz on your progress.  So glad you are feeling positive about it!

 

Me, Im having a great day today.  I hope you all have a great day also!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

[[We...]]

I actually believe, from everything I've read, studied, and other's experiences, that titration and micrtapering, is likely the least painful route to go, and should be suggested to anyone wanting to get off benzos. Maybe over time, if we get enough people together, we could do up a study, or manual or whatever to publish and give to doctors or addiction centres. I think this could help a lot of people! 

 

Have a great day everyone

 

My real name is Shannon hehe. I'm just going to start using it on here, it's ok to call me Wecan, if you forget

 

Shannon

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Moodle,

 

Congratulations on that last bottle!!  You are almost there

 

Thank you!

It's surreal.

It feels like yesterday that it was still filling my pill jar with three 5 mgr pills a day. And now I take two little quarters of a 2 mgr one.

That is only 3 1/2 mgr per week!

Crazy realization.

 

I'm holding a bit now ( hormones ) and then it's on to being under 1 mgr.

Yikes.

 

Hope yiur day is well.

[[Be...]]

After participating in the forum for a few months I have observed that several liquid titration methods can be successful.  I see a lot of discussion about whether people should use milk or water for a liquid titration and whether to use a mortar and pestle to grind the tablet or vodka to dissolve it.  From what I can see it doesn't really matter.  I think the best thing we can do is be consistent in how we measure and prepare our doses.  I believe that any losses associated with containers or variations related to milk or water will even out over time.  In other words, I believe it's not necessary to over think the methodology but to just be sure to use the same method with each dose for ourselves. 

 

I have also seen discussion about a rule of thumb for what percent to taper and that it's necessary to reduce the taper amount towards the end because the percentage becomes bigger.  I am not sure about this.  Intuitively it makes some sense, but I also wonder if there is just a mg/day rate that the body can adjust to regardless of the ultimate percent.  I say this because I have read where people have continued their taper at the same rate all the way to the end while others got into trouble and had to hold and reduce the taper rate towards the end.  Perhaps each of us is different and rather than there being a rule of thumb, each person really needs to find out for themselves how their body will react.

 

Just some thoughts that I have had but not really expressed.  I would be interested if others have some ideas on these topics.

[[sh...]]

After participating in the forum for a few months I have observed that several liquid titration methods can be successful.  I see a lot of discussion about whether people should use milk or water for a liquid titration and whether to use a mortar and pestle to grind the tablet or vodka to dissolve it.  From what I can see it doesn't really matter. I think the best thing we can do is be consistent in how we measure and prepare our doses.  I believe that any losses associated with containers or variations related to milk or water will even out over time.  In other words, I believe it's not necessary to over think the methodology but to just be sure to use the same method with each dose for ourselves. 

 

I have also seen discussion about a rule of thumb for what percent to taper and that it's necessary to reduce the taper amount towards the end because the percentage becomes bigger.  I am not sure about this.  Intuitively it makes some sense, but I also wonder if there is just a mg/day rate that the body can adjust to regardless of the ultimate percent.  I say this because I have read where people have continued their taper at the same rate all the way to the end while others got into trouble and had to hold and reduce the taper rate towards the end.  Perhaps each of us is different and rather than there being a rule of thumb, each person really needs to find out for themselves how their body will react.

 

Just some thoughts that I have had but not really expressed.  I would be interested if others have some ideas on these topics.

 

:thumbsup:

[[Mo...]]

After participating in the forum for a few months I have observed that several liquid titration methods can be successful.  I see a lot of discussion about whether people should use milk or water for a liquid titration and whether to use a mortar and pestle to grind the tablet or vodka to dissolve it.  From what I can see it doesn't really matter.  I think the best thing we can do is be consistent in how we measure and prepare our doses.  I believe that any losses associated with containers or variations related to milk or water will even out over time.  In other words, I believe it's not necessary to over think the methodology but to just be sure to use the same method with each dose for ourselves. 

 

I have also seen discussion about a rule of thumb for what percent to taper and that it's necessary to reduce the taper amount towards the end because the percentage becomes bigger.  I am not sure about this.  Intuitively it makes some sense, but I also wonder if there is just a mg/day rate that the body can adjust to regardless of the ultimate percent.  I say this because I have read where people have continued their taper at the same rate all the way to the end while others got into trouble and had to hold and reduce the taper rate towards the end.  Perhaps each of us is different and rather than there being a rule of thumb, each person really needs to find out for themselves how their body will react.

 

Just some thoughts that I have had but not really expressed.  I would be interested if others have some ideas on these topics.

 

I do feel that my body adjusted somewhat to the cuts and kind of got used to the reductions I made.

I've tapered by 0.05 mgr a day, with a hold on the 4 the day, consistently from about 13 mgr Valium till around 3.75 where I hit a wall.

I did hit several others along the way, too and that's where I held for a few days, too. But in General, I've just been chopping this a away at that rate.

 

A few weeks back, I was still going at it with 0.05 increments and I sure felt it!

No wonder... It's over 33% I was cutting at that time.

From what I can tell, the way people feel when they finally jump, can set the trend for how you'll be feeling the times after ( this is just anecdotal, not hard proof, as with eveything I share , because I just know what I know happens to myself and what I have read here over the last year and a half)

 

So, I've slowed down and feel a good difference .

Right now, at almost 1 mgr, I don't have any consistency to my cuts anymore. On crappy days I hold, on better ones I might cut 0.025 mgr.

When I feel okay  I try to catch my breath for a few days and might do a 0.05

 

I think what I'm doing right now just makes sense. Cut as you feel.

No need to screw it all up on the last leg of my taper. I'll get there before summer is over. And what's a few weeks after tapering for 16 months, really... So I don't push it anymore.

Hope that makes sense.

 

 

[[...]]

Can anyone recommend an inexpensive scale that goes that small? I only see expensive ones, and I would love it if I didn't have to buy it online, too. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[[bu...]]

After participating in the forum for a few months I have observed that several liquid titration methods can be successful.  I see a lot of discussion about whether people should use milk or water for a liquid titration and whether to use a mortar and pestle to grind the tablet or vodka to dissolve it.  From what I can see it doesn't really matter. I think the best thing we can do is be consistent in how we measure and prepare our doses.  I believe that any losses associated with containers or variations related to milk or water will even out over time.  In other words, I believe it's not necessary to over think the methodology but to just be sure to use the same method with each dose for ourselves. 

 

 

 

 

:thumbsup:

 

1)  Consistency is much more important than precision.

 

2)  The only thing the methology actually requires is liquify your med and use that liquid to consistently lower your dose.

[[Mo...]]

Not sure where you'd buy it if not online. But most people I know use the Gemini scale from amazon, which is, about 25 dollars.

It's a gram scale, so you go by pill weight, converted.

 

 

[[Be...]]

Thanks for the feedback Moodle.  It's interesting to see you notice a difference towards the end and need to slow down.  I have noticed that on other posts from people taking valium.  On a valium equivalent basis I am still at a relatively high level.  I'll inform everyone if I start to struggle and need to slow my taper when I get to lower levels.  I agree that there is no need to screw up a taper after so many months.  I know how I felt the times that I got into trouble and will not try to push through.  In the meantime I will keep my fingers crossed that I can manage at my current rate until the end.

[[Mo...]]

Thanks for the feedback Moodle.  It's interesting to see you notice a difference towards the end and need to slow down.  I have noticed that on other posts from people taking valium.  On a valium equivalent basis I am still at a relatively high level.  I'll inform everyone if I start to struggle and need to slow my taper when I get to lower levels.  I agree that there is no need to screw up a taper after so many months.  I know how I felt the times that I got into trouble and will not try to push through.  In the meantime I will keep my fingers crossed that I can manage at my current rate until the end.

 

Something like this, Ben.

( it's the one I used )

 

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-GEMINI-20-Portable-MilliGram/dp/B0012TDNAM

 

Also, I think maybe Valium might be a bit diferent , since it's so long acting. It's said I have more than 5 times the amount of Valium accumulated in my body than I actually take it, thus a cut can be felt much later. For me anywhere from 5-8 days after my cut.

( not on this daily method  but when I did cut and hold on higher dose)

 

With Ativan I felt it within hours if I forgot a dose, not on Valium that's for sure. So I'm going ts low till the end!

[[Gy...]]

Thanks for the feedback Moodle.  It's interesting to see you notice a difference towards the end and need to slow down.  I have noticed that on other posts from people taking valium.  On a valium equivalent basis I am still at a relatively high level.  I'll inform everyone if I start to struggle and need to slow my taper when I get to lower levels.  I agree that there is no need to screw up a taper after so many months.  I know how I felt the times that I got into trouble and will not try to push through.  In the meantime I will keep my fingers crossed that I can manage at my current rate until the end.

 

Something like this, Ben.

( it's the one I used )

 

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-GEMINI-20-Portable-MilliGram/dp/B0012TDNAM

 

Also, I think maybe Valium might be a bit diferent , since it's so long acting. It's said I have more than 5 times the amount of Valium accumulated in my body than I actually take it, thus a cut can be felt much later. For me anywhere from 5-8 days after my cut.

( not on this daily method  but when I did cut and hold on higher dose)

 

With Ativan I felt it within hours if I forgot a dose, not on Valium that's for sure. So I'm going ts low till the end!

 

Yeah I agree Moo with Ativan you feel the cut pretty much straight away, on v if I made a large cut it took about 8 days before I would feel it, and the shit shit would hit the fan for about 15 weeks before it subside a little, doing micro taper and small cuts everyday I usually start to fell it at day 14 then I hold until everything settles before starting to cut again, the lower I go the longer the holds in between my last hold was 16 days, but I would rather go at a snails pace than have to up dose.

I have spent nearly a decade on this crap so what's a few more years if I can heal on the way down

 

 

Luv n hugs

 

Gypsy

[[Mo...]]

Gypsy, do you mean 15 days?

 

Yes, a missed dose on Ativan was felt right away. Due to interdose Wd, I rarely missed one anyway, always waiting for the next load. But some days I was able to nap and took my dose later and it wasn't pretty.

 

I've not held more than a few days on Valium, probably due to the standard fourth day hold I built in and mostly I held during hormone carnival time. For a few days.

 

Never updosed either. I have done a one time updose twice. One was accidental. I forgot a dose but wasn't sure. And decided not to jinx it and take it.

I forgot a dose last week too, is what I think but didn't take it.

Always something...

 

Hope your day is going okay so far.

Live had more exercise today than I have in months. And my son has a friend over and I took them for ice cream, which is so ething I also haven't done in forever.

Some good things happened today, making me feel a lot better and will make my taper better to handle, too.

 

[[Cl...]]

Hi Beautiful BBs in here 

Very interesting opinions in here about microtaper.

We Can, your idea of doing a liquid and solid microtaper manual sounds GREAT to me! I also think that microtaper is the smoothest method so far. Especially for long term users. I also think that high doses can be tapered by this method but using a high angle at the begining 

I wish you all an excellent evening 

 

[[dp...]]

Just wondering.

 

Everyone I see doing daily tapers seem to be using either compounded liquid to cut or they make their own liquid suspension/solution.

 

I don't see many out there shaving pills and using jewelry scales to daily cut/micro-cut.

 

I'm down to 6.0mg Valium as of tomorrow, and have just been overwhelmed with withdrawal symptoms... and I've been cutting at a slow pace of .02mg/day with the scale. I feel like I'm going insane everyday, weak and exhausted as hell, anxious, depressed, rapid cycling, extreme DP/DR.. something that I wouldn't have expected when cutting as slowly as I am.

 

Would people recommend avoiding the shaving method? I can't in good faith keep doing this, because while I am lowering my dose, I'm going absolutely insane. I'm not going to put up with these ideations everyday.

 

I have pharma grade Valium Roxane brand (1ml:1mg Valium) and am considering holding at 6mg for a bit and then trying to daily taper with part pills and part liquid again.

 

Any thoughts would be welcome and appreciated. Thanks!

 

Dan

[[Mo...]]

Yep DanTheMan,

Back to daily ...

So, 5 mgr in pills, 1 mgr liquid and then just adjust a bit to the liquid ( if preferred..I know..) and then slowly going down..

You know the drill

[[Kg...]]

Dan lots of people are using the scale to cut klonopin vs the liquid.  I know Clona is doing it as am I.  I don't know about Valium though and how to micro taper it using the scale. Looking at your signature are you still taking the steriod?  That may be the reason you are not feeling well -with cutting the benzos and taking the steriod they do interact from what I have read.  If you have to take it then I think you  should hold as you say and perhaps go slower on your cuts.  If something isn't working IMHO it pays to try something else. 

[[Gy...]]

Gypsy, do you mean 15 days?

 

Yes, a missed dose on Ativan was felt right away. Due to interdose Wd, I rarely missed one anyway, always waiting for the next load. But some days I was able to nap and took my dose later and it wasn't pretty.

 

I've not held more than a few days on Valium, probably due to the standard fourth day hold I built in and mostly I held during hormone carnival time. For a few days.

 

Never updosed either. I have done a one time updose twice. One was accidental. I forgot a dose but wasn't sure. And decided not to jinx it and take it.

I forgot a dose last week too, is what I think but didn't take it.

Always something...

 

Hope your day is going okay so far.

Live had more exercise today than I have in months. And my son has a friend over and I took them for ice cream, which is so ething I also haven't done in forever.

Some good things happened today, making me feel a lot better and will make my taper better to handle, too.

 

 

Moo

 

No I definitely meant 15 weeks, that only happens if I do a large cut of half of a mg. That's why I think it has taken me over a year to pluck up the guts to try the micro taper. The sx of the last large cut I made where horrid, massive amount of rage you name it I had it, longest 3 months ever. I probably felt it so much cos I had been so stable for so long.

Oh well live and learn hey!

 

I must admit though that the lower I go more of my memory seems to come back, I have big lapses of memory coming down so hard from 30 to 5 mg. it is a wonder my fried brain made it through

 

It is good to hear that things in your life are going so well, I remember when you first joined BB you were in such a bad place,the courage and determination that you have showed is just awesome, it is people like you Moo that kept us all going, a true success story in the making.

 

Hope you have a great summer ( where in winter here, hate that

 

Luv n hugs

 

Gypsy