Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[dp...]]

I'm just going to throw out there... it seems like I've only reached any level of stability when I've approached or been at the whole mg increments of Valium. ie: 14mg, 13mg, 9mg, and now reaching stability as I've been getting towards 6mg... and I mean not just tolerable, but able to socialize tolerable.

 

I don't know if this is just coincidence, and over thinking mind, or if it has something to do with the not having accurate dosages until I actually get close and down to taking straight pills and not pills that are shaved.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[[We...]]

I'm just going to throw out there... it seems like I've only reached any level of stability when I've approached or been at the whole mg increments of Valium. ie: 14mg, 13mg, 9mg, and now reaching stability as I've been getting towards 6mg... and I mean not just tolerable, but able to socialize tolerable.

 

I don't know if this is just coincidence, and over thinking mind, or if it has something to do with the not having accurate dosages until I actually get close and down to taking straight pills and not pills that are shaved.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Interesting. I'd say since it seems you get more 'stable' while on these whole pill doses, it could indicate the inaccuracy and inconsistency with your cuts, could be affecting you.

 

I seem to notice that, too. I mean right now, I'm still giving my annoyingly sensitive system time to stabilize on the updose and on the four times a day dosing. and I even notice when I am a little less careful with dividing my .5mg pills up into 4 doses (.375mg each) but cutting with a pill cutter. I get wonky symptoms. and I'm not even tapering. I just find consistency and accuracy through out the day effects my symptoms even if im not tapering.

 

have fun at your movie and I'm glad you are feeling better because I know you were having a rough time. R u cutting your hydrocortisone while the benzos, too? if I were you, id totally just do one pill at a time.

 

talk soon

shann

[Guest [yo...]]

I'm just going to throw out there... it seems like I've only reached any level of stability when I've approached or been at the whole mg increments of Valium. ie: 14mg, 13mg, 9mg, and now reaching stability as I've been getting towards 6mg... and I mean not just tolerable, but able to socialize tolerable.

I'm going to extrapolate, see if it resonates?

 

If you're seeing stability with whole pills, that would be normal, but if you're seeing instability by cutting at one hundreth or a thousandth of a gram, then that's got to be accurate or it could be 3 tenths or 3 hundredths out either direction, or more at lower weights.  If we're going to the effort of measuring down to one thousandth of a gram, doesn't each increment of one thousandth make all the difference?  So, in theory it seems logical to match fluctuating symptoms with fluctating doses and for the correlation to imply causation in this case.

 

For, if measuring to those tolerances isn't that important, one wonders why any of us bother doing it at all in those increments?  I say those who microtaper argue their own case that they need the tolerances in accurate increments, by the very nature of their microtaper and their sensitive bodies; as an accurate resolution one seems to need tiration, but for less accurate drops (by about 1mg at a time) there'll be a much broader tolerance at 1mg weghts so the shif of .3mg either way won't necessesarily be noticed by most people not needing a fine microtaper.

 

I keep seeing so many people say the moment they switched to compound liquid their stability improved a hell of a lot and it's obvious why, but I suppose tapering in itself is like a McDonalds menu in the sense that there are so many choices available to fit each person's unique body / mind.  But we're all just eating crap really, one way or the other.

 

How does that sound to you, dp?

 

 

J

[[dp...]]

I'm just going to throw out there... it seems like I've only reached any level of stability when I've approached or been at the whole mg increments of Valium. ie: 14mg, 13mg, 9mg, and now reaching stability as I've been getting towards 6mg... and I mean not just tolerable, but able to socialize tolerable.

I'm going to extrapolate, see if it resonates?

 

If you're seeing stability with whole pills, that would be normal, but if you're seeing instability by cutting at one hundreth or a thousandth of a gram, then that's got to be accurate or it could be 3 tenths or 3 hundredths out either direction, or more at lower weights.  If we're going to the effort of measuring down to one thousandth of a gram, doesn't each increment of one thousandth make all the difference?  So, in theory it seems logical to match fluctuating symptoms with fluctating doses and for the correlation to imply causation in this case.

 

For, if measuring to those tolerances isn't that important, one wonders why any of us bother doing it at all in those increments?  I say those who microtaper argue their own case that they need the tolerances in accurate increments, by the very nature of their microtaper and their sensitive bodies; as an accurate resolution one seems to need tiration, but for less accurate drops (by about 1mg at a time) there'll be a much broader tolerance at 1mg weghts so the shif of .3mg either way won't necessesarily be noticed by most people not needing a fine microtaper.

 

I keep seeing so many people say the moment they switched to compound liquid their stability improved a hell of a lot and it's obvious why, but I suppose tapering in itself is like a McDonalds menu in the sense that there are so many choices available to fit each person's unique body / mind.  But we're all just eating crap really, one way or the other.

 

How does that sound to you, dp?

 

 

J

 

Makes perfect sense. Thank you!

 

..and were you referring to switching from pill cutting to compound liquid titration? Because that's what I'm going to do. Part pills part liquid prescription.

[[bu...]]

 

 

My take on it? It would seem that using liquid benzo would be ideal when titrating/daily cutting... and me thinks that's exactly what I'm going to give another shot.

 

 

It shouldn't matter if it's liquid or not... t

 

 

 

:thumbsup:

[Guest [yo...]]

Makes perfect sense. Thank you!

Anytime

 

..and were you referring to switching from pill cutting to compound liquid titration? Because that's what I'm going to do. Part pills part liquid prescription.

That's right.. I've see many folks here do that, and known people personally who opted for the compound liquid (I think someone here uses almond oil as a base, or it's some other bio oil), as they can either but that pre-prepared from their pharmacist, or make thier own.

 

IF I wanted to taper valium with small increments (I did mine recently in 5mg drops on a quick-taper), I can't ever see myself doing it without a liquid compound as I'd only be interested in accuracy to control the fluctuating sx's.

 

I used to wash my own codeine out of prescrpition painkillers to avoid the apap, so making my own liquid would be easy enough.  But if I could BUY it ready made?  It's a no-brainer in my vew.

 

If I needed the control over my doses, I'd take the easy road with more stable sx's, any day, because with it comes that certain peace-of-mind most of us can't find with pill shaving

 

 

J

[[We...]]

I'm going with Sharkey's recipe on the liquid titration. We can't get the pure liquid benzos here in Canada (lame).

 

[Guest [yo...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

[[We...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

 

yes, really. I could go on and on about the ridiculous laws here, but I that would only bum me out. I need to ride some good vibes. :sick:

[Guest [yo...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

 

yes, really. I could go on and on about the ridiculous laws here, but I that would only bum me out. I need to ride some good vibes. :sick:

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

Pharma-grade liquid V is available (by prescription) in the UK.  Several UK BBs have used it to taper.

[[Ch...]]

Well, thanks for clearing-up that the science, chemists, pharmacists, evidence, facts, people who spend up to twenty grand on lab scales to measure accurately at those measurements, and people who've almost died and indeed frieds of mine who HAVE died from using cheap jewllers scales are all talking shit.

 

Because you say so. 

 

I'll go add that to Doug's gravestone first thing in the morning.

 

Thanks for the headsup.

 

 

Kgirl's post about scales didn't deserve this type of sarcastic reply, Yobi.  I know you're fully aware of the forum's guidelines, but I'll follow protocol and post this as a reminder:

 

Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned.

 

Tone it down, please.

 

Thanks,

Challis

[Guest [yo...]]

Is that the same comment I've already apologised directly for, twice, and toned-it-down on my own? 

 

Or am I confused, chal?

 

Edit:  It's ok.  Message received, no need to reply.

[[We...]]

Microtaper question:

 

Ok, So sharky made me an initial 14 day microtaper schedule, where I'd be tapering 0.0025mg a day, or 0.25 ml of solution daily.

 

for those who have liquid micortapered, will I maintain this 0.0025mg/ 0.25ml decrease the whole way through. OR as my dose gets smaller, will I need to decrease the size of my liquid cuts because they would need to be a smaller % of the total dose?

 

and a 1ml syringe seems ok to measure .25ml variations, but if has anyone used a .5ml syringe for smaller cuts?

 

Thanks in advance for any info

 

Shannon

[[dp...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

Pharma-grade liquid V is available (by prescription) in the UK.  Several UK BBs have used it to taper.

 

Yep... and that's the stuff I'm using... the stuff from Roxanne. Some people find it weird on the stomach, but personally, from someone who's had digestive issues... I never had a problem with it at all. The only thing I found was it felt like a major cut when I started it. Not sure why, but I'm going to wait it out this time. I can't trust a method that I'm not sure is accurate as I'm getting down to sub 5mg.

[[We...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

Pharma-grade liquid V is available (by prescription) in the UK.  Several UK BBs have used it to taper.

 

Yep... and that's the stuff I'm using... the stuff from Roxanne. Some people find it weird on the stomach, but personally, from someone who's had digestive issues... I never had a problem with it at all. The only thing I found was it felt like a major cut when I started it. Not sure why, but I'm going to wait it out this time. I can't trust a method that I'm not sure is accurate as I'm getting down to sub 5mg.

 

Dpier,

 

I have theories why liquid seems like a cut. From someone who also has other health problems, digestive problems I can think of a few reasons for this.

 

Our bodies digest the pills better than the liquid--because of ph/acidity issues, because of where in the GI track they are digested etc versus the liquid. we could be reacting to the formulation of the liquid verses the pill, making it seem like a cut etc. People with sensitivities (as you know) have all sorts of reactions to the most minute things.

 

I'd treat the liquid transfer as a cut, wait it out awhile until you stabilize, and then proceed with the taper. Good luck!

 

Shannon

[[dp...]]

Microtaper question:

 

Ok, So sharky made me an initial 14 day microtaper schedule, where I'd be tapering 0.0025mg a day, or 0.25 ml of solution daily.

 

for those who have liquid micortapered, will I maintain this 0.0025mg/ 0.25ml decrease the whole way through. OR as my dose gets smaller, will I need to decrease the size of my liquid cuts because they would need to be a smaller % of the total dose?

 

and a 1ml syringe seems ok to measure .25ml variations, but if has anyone used a .5ml syringe for smaller cuts?

 

Thanks in advance for any info

 

Shannon

 

Hey Shannon

 

From everything I've read on micro-tapering, most notably Diaza-Pam (not sure if she's posted in this thread at all), %'s aren't as big a deal when it comes to daily cutting, or at least, it's not something that needs to be obsessed about as much... because of the gentler impact each little cut has on you.

 

It's more of a, try a taper rate... keep cutting and if things start to creep up on you and you feel a bad shift coming... take a few days break and let it pass... and then proceed/adjust as necessary... that's why it's such a big appeal for me over the cut/holds... don't have to worry about cutting too large a % at once and then having to suffer through 2-3 weeks of symptoms, not knowing when it's going to let up.

 

PS: The more you can get your syringe to measure in smaller increments, the better, imo.. Nothing wrong with being sure it's more accurate/precise.

[[Mo...]]

Microtaper question:

 

Ok, So sharky made me an initial 14 day microtaper schedule, where I'd be tapering 0.0025mg a day, or 0.25 ml of solution daily.

 

for those who have liquid micortapered, will I maintain this 0.0025mg/ 0.25ml decrease the whole way through. OR as my dose gets smaller, will I need to decrease the size of my liquid cuts because they would need to be a smaller % of the total dose?

 

and a 1ml syringe seems ok to measure .25ml variations, but if has anyone used a .5ml syringe for smaller cuts?

 

Thanks in advance for any info

 

Shannon

 

Hey Shannon

 

From everything I've read on micro-tapering, most notably Diaza-Pam (not sure if she's posted in this thread at all), %'s aren't as big a deal when it comes to daily cutting, or at least, it's not something that needs to be obsessed about as much... because of the gentler impact each little cut has on you.

 

It's more of a, try a taper rate... keep cutting and if things start to creep up on you and you feel a bad shift coming... take a few days break and let it pass... and then proceed/adjust as necessary... that's why it's such a big appeal for me over the cut/holds... don't have to worry about cutting too large a % at once and then having to suffer through 2-3 weeks of symptoms, not knowing when it's going to let up.

 

PS: The more you can get your syringe to measure in smaller increments, the better, imo.. Nothing wrong with being sure it's more accurate/precise.

 

You got it Dan. It's more manageable imo and served me well.

I have 1 ml syringes. With 0,1 ml and also some with 0,05 ml.

 

[[bu...]]

Really?  Man.. so you're forced to make your own.  Interesting.  Now I'm wondering if they do it in the UK.. hmm.

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

Pharma-grade liquid V is available (by prescription) in the UK.  Several UK BBs have used it to taper.

 

Yep... and that's the stuff I'm using... the stuff from Roxanne. Some people find it weird on the stomach, but personally, from someone who's had digestive issues... I never had a problem with it at all. The only thing I found was it felt like a major cut when I started it. Not sure why, but I'm going to wait it out this time. I can't trust a method that I'm not sure is accurate as I'm getting down to sub 5mg.

  Uhh, Dan,  I don't think your in the UK. And Roxane is the US product, not available in UK!

 

:)

 

[[dp...]]

I'm going to bed. lol Thanks for the insightful posts guys. Seriously. Wouldn't be successful without this site and you guys.

[[Mo...]]

I'm going to bed. lol Thanks for the insightful posts guys. Seriously. Wouldn't be successful without this site and you guys.

 

Good night dan.

I see 6 mgr for tomorrow in your sig! Whoohoooo!

You're way more over halfway done.

[[Ul...]]

Hey Dan, I see in your sig that you take HC and Armour. Would I be correct in assuming that your adrenals and thyroid got blasted? Of course, 21+ years on clon would blast the space shuttle into the stratosphere as I've experienced, much less adrenal glands and thyroid. So, I FINALLY figured out how and why my thyroid and adrenals got whacked. I'm getting help from a good D.O. for my thyroid, but she said she can't really help me with my adrenals. She said I need to see a good Functional med doc. Who do/did you see about getting help with your adrenals and thyroid? Also, I been told by numerous people and docs that treating the thyroid without FIRST having well-functioning adrenals will be a problem...increased anxiety, extra stress on the adrenals, cortisol issues, etc. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this and, again, how you got help with the adrenals and thyroid.

 

Keep rockin' it!!!

 

♪ ♫ Love in an elevator!! ♪ ♫

[[We...]]

Microtaper question:

 

Ok, So sharky made me an initial 14 day microtaper schedule, where I'd be tapering 0.0025mg a day, or 0.25 ml of solution daily.

 

for those who have liquid micortapered, will I maintain this 0.0025mg/ 0.25ml decrease the whole way through. OR as my dose gets smaller, will I need to decrease the size of my liquid cuts because they would need to be a smaller % of the total dose?

 

and a 1ml syringe seems ok to measure .25ml variations, but if has anyone used a .5ml syringe for smaller cuts?

 

Thanks in advance for any info

 

Shannon

 

Hey Shannon

 

From everything I've read on micro-tapering, most notably Diaza-Pam (not sure if she's posted in this thread at all), %'s aren't as big a deal when it comes to daily cutting, or at least, it's not something that needs to be obsessed about as much... because of the gentler impact each little cut has on you.

 

It's more of a, try a taper rate... keep cutting and if things start to creep up on you and you feel a bad shift coming... take a few days break and let it pass... and then proceed/adjust as necessary... that's why it's such a big appeal for me over the cut/holds... don't have to worry about cutting too large a % at once and then having to suffer through 2-3 weeks of symptoms, not knowing when it's going to let up.

 

PS: The more you can get your syringe to measure in smaller increments, the better, imo.. Nothing wrong with being sure it's more accurate/precise.

 

Ok thx for the input, dan. I guess it really is all individual isn't it. im so glad I have you guys to bounce this stuff off of.

[[We...]]

Hey Dan, I see in your sig that you take HC and Armour. Would I be correct in assuming that your adrenals and thyroid got blasted? Of course, 21+ years on clon would blast the space shuttle into the stratosphere as I've experienced, much less adrenal glands and thyroid. So, I FINALLY figured out how and why my thyroid and adrenals got whacked. I'm getting help from a good D.O. for my thyroid, but she said she can't really help me with my adrenals. She said I need to see a good Functional med doc. Who do/did you see about getting help with your adrenals and thyroid? Also, I been told by numerous people and docs that treating the thyroid without FIRST having well-functioning adrenals will be a problem...increased anxiety, extra stress on the adrenals, cortisol issues, etc. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this and, again, how you got help with the adrenals and thyroid.

 

Keep rockin' it!!!

 

♪ ♫ Love in an elevator!! ♪ ♫

 

Hi ultra,

I hope you don't mind if I chime in. My adrenals and thyroid got blasted from stupid benzos, too.

 

Ive been trying to treat them for years, but my realization came that I will never truly heal them until I am off these darn benzos. it doesn't mean I cant support them and do good things fr them while I am tapering, but I used to get so annoyed when I would try all of these things for them and not get my heath back---it was because benzos has been robbing my health all along.

 

In my opinion doing structural things to support thyroid is ok, like chirocpractic, osteopathy, etc, but I wouldn't over supplement with thyroid stuff unless I  was working on my adrenals too.

 

I crashed my own adrenals once by using too much iodine. my thyroid started working better but I was a nutcase. there are others out there who can tolerate iodine and its actually helped their adrenal issues. but I was doing high dose iodine.

 

I'd find a good practionner, get a cortisol saliva test to see what your ranges are and see how bad the adrenals are, then u can get a better idea of hw to treat them. depending on what stage they are at, you will likely use anything for diet changes, to stress management techniques, to nutrients, to glandulars. but you will be able to heal, and this will help you come off your benzos more easily.

 

good luck with it all

shannon

[[no...]]

Hey Dan, I see in your sig that you take HC and Armour. Would I be correct in assuming that your adrenals and thyroid got blasted? Of course, 21+ years on clon would blast the space shuttle into the stratosphere as I've experienced, much less adrenal glands and thyroid. So, I FINALLY figured out how and why my thyroid and adrenals got whacked. I'm getting help from a good D.O. for my thyroid, but she said she can't really help me with my adrenals. She said I need to see a good Functional med doc. Who do/did you see about getting help with your adrenals and thyroid? Also, I been told by numerous people and docs that treating the thyroid without FIRST having well-functioning adrenals will be a problem...increased anxiety, extra stress on the adrenals, cortisol issues, etc. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this and, again, how you got help with the adrenals and thyroid.

 

Keep rockin' it!!!

 

♪ ♫ Love in an elevator!! ♪ ♫

 

Hi ultra,

I hope you don't mind if I chime in. My adrenals and thyroid got blasted from stupid benzos, too.

 

Ive been trying to treat them for years, but my realization came that I will never truly heal them until I am off these darn benzos. it doesn't mean I cant support them and do good things fr them while I am tapering, but I used to get so annoyed when I would try all of these things for them and not get my heath back---it was because benzos has been robbing my health all along.

 

In my opinion doing structural things to support thyroid is ok, like chirocpractic, osteopathy, etc, but I wouldn't over supplement with thyroid stuff unless I  was working on my adrenals too.

 

I crashed my own adrenals once by using too much iodine. my thyroid started working better but I was a nutcase. there are others out there who can tolerate iodine and its actually helped their adrenal issues. but I was doing high dose iodine.

 

I'd find a good practionner, get a cortisol saliva test to see what your ranges are and see how bad the adrenals are, then u can get a better idea of hw to treat them. depending on what stage they are at, you will likely use anything for diet changes, to stress management techniques, to nutrients, to glandulars. but you will be able to heal, and this will help you come off your benzos more easily.

 

good luck with it all

shannon

 

 

Hi Shannon  here is a link to a thread where Perseverance explains to everyone who believes they have adrenal fatugie according to test results and why its no adrenal fatigue any of us actually have at all.

 

''[quote by Perseverance]''It is not adrenal fatigue...it is irregular levels of ACTH from the pituitary gland causing the adrenal outputs to be low.  Your adrenal function is more than likely fine...

 

The adrenal cannot have correct outputs if the inputs are off.

 

The inputs are off because benzos effected that part of the brain which tells the adrenals what to do.''

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44448.0

 

Some of you are no doubt going to be pissed off when you read whats really going on on the link, and while I'm here I have now begun tapering again after holding at 3.86 for two days after expecting to be holding for weeks maybe due to escalating sxs. Over the last two day's I've gone back to dropping 00.1 daily again

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten: