Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[We...]]

Trying to liquefy some doses one more time to give it a go,  before I decide to use a scale. I'm going to take my dose with a lot of food, to try and slow down the absorption rate. wish me luck, guys

[[We...]]

Hi Selah,

 

I'm betting your symptoms of interdose withdrawl with Valium are related to food sensitivity. have you had a food sensitivity test done. without that (because it can be a expensive) I would try to cut out gluten and high histamine foods. Benzos are known to decrease DAO, which is the enzyme that digests histamine in our system. So people can become quite sensitive to foods and histamine while on benzos.

 

If you are not already microtapering, I would microtaper. there are others here who can help out with the math and taper rate. the supplements I use, are magnesium glycinate, quercetin plus c, and milk thistle for liver.

 

Hang in there, I wish you all the best.

 

Shannon

[[ga...]]

Hi. Wondering if anybody saw my post earlier regarding holding patterns and women. Also supplements.

Thanks

Selah

 

You know, I thought I responded, but I can't recall exactly what I said.

 

My current thoughts are that:

1. This is a micro-tapering support group, not a cut and hold group or a women's issues group, so perhaps that's why you didn't get many responses.

2. There is a whole forum called Alternative Therapies and Supplements. I suggest you try asking about supplements there.

3. I think I asked you if you were micro-tapering because this is the micro-tapering thread, but I don't recall that you responded. I will go back and look again.

 

Micro-tapering is a good method to use to minimize symptoms and if you would like to try it, there are many people here who will help you with that, just ask away!

 

Edit: Yes I did respond, and I'm still wondering if you are micro-tapering or even considering it. I can't figure that out from your posts or signature.

 

[[We...]]

*****MATH QUESTION*****

 

you know how most people when they make the solution, they do 3ml alcohol and then 97ml water.

 

So what about 3ml alcohol and 7ml to make a 10ml solution. Is that doable (there is a reason I ask--I will get to it in a second) Can you get cylinders and syringes small enough to measure amounts needed for tapering a 10ml solution instead of 100ml. even when you get down to the lower doses and  need to make smaller and smaller cuts?

 

The going theory for the reason so many are sensitive to the liquids is absorption. And I figured, if we could make up 10ml batches, and then put each dose into a gel cap ( you can buy empty ones at health food stores) you could slow down the absorption.

 

each cap I have can hold about 1ml of solution, so if you'd need to transfer the premeasured dose into the caps (which is actually fairly easy) with a syringe. so you'd be taking about 10 of the caps per day.

 

Now I just need to know if making cuts with a 10ml solution is doable?

 

thanks in advance

shan

 

Yes, this is doable by there is more room for error in your cuts.  That is why it is suggested to do 100ml.  I used 400ml in my titration plan but my was a little weird.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Thanx, Sharky

[[...]]

Thank you Sharkey for your advise.  I started my dry micro-tapering.  So far so good.

[[Se...]]

Thanks we can and garden.

Sorry missed your response.

I know this is the micro tapering thread that's why I asked about the holding here. I am micro tapering. My signature is just randomly updated.

 

We can  -

I know about the DAO and histamine. Have done tons of research also had my 23and me results done so I know where my gene polymorphisms are.i am trying to figure out what people are doing for a micro taper then hold pattern and if that includes hormonal stuff how to adjust v

I have seen lots of different suggestions regarding micro tapering so wondered what people were using here that wirked the best.

I am cutting anywhere from .012 mg Valium to .024 mg. daily with holds related to menstruation.

But not holding otherwise so trying to figure out what else to do.

 

My Valium does not last (I am on the liquid Roxanne) - the first metabolite anyway. I have a gene that upregulate a that.

Thanks for any other input vi greatly appreciate it!

[[ga...]]

Thanks we can and garden.

Sorry missed your response.

I know this is the micro tapering thread that's why I asked about the holding here. I am micro tapering. My signature is just randomly updated.

 

We can  -

I know about the DAO and histamine. Have done tons of research also had my 23and me results done so I know where my gene polymorphisms are.i am trying to figure out what people are doing for a micro taper then hold pattern and if that includes hormonal stuff how to adjust v

I have seen lots of different suggestions regarding micro tapering so wondered what people were using here that wirked the best.

I am cutting anywhere from .012 mg Valium to .024 mg. daily with holds related to menstruation.

But not holding otherwise so trying to figure out what else to do.

 

My Valium does not last (I am on the liquid Roxanne) - the first metabolite anyway. I have a gene that upregulate a that.

Thanks for any other input vi greatly appreciate it!

 

OK. I think I get it now. I am also a hyper-fast metabolizer of Valium (too much 2C19), so I am crossing over to Librium. Xanax and Librium are both metabolized by 3A4. Here's a link about liver enzymes that may be helpful. http://www.ct.gov/dcf/lib/dcf/ccmu/pdf/cyp_chart_nov_2013.pdf  Scroll down to BZD and you will see that Valium is metabolized differently from the other benzos and perhaps that's why some people have trouble with it.

 

I only had 2 genes tested (neither of them 3A4) but my thinking was that if Xanax used 3A4 and Librium used 3A4, at least I was going from a fast 3A4 to a slow 3A4 rather than switching to V, a 2C19-3A4-1A2-2B6-2C9. The simpler switch seemed safer to me but I am not a doctor or a geneticist, so take this with a grain of salt!

 

 

[[ga...]]

Thank you Shannon! All the best for you!

Daily Microtaper does work! I am having a 100% window today!

I like much this helpful thread! 

 

[[Se...]]

Hi gardener -

I think my 3a4 is hypersensitive from this. Depending on if I eat an inducing food or an inhibiting food for 3a4.

I was in Klonopin - my Nat2 enzyme was messed up. I've also spoken to someone who researched and said that Xanax in particular - but I am sure others - can upregulate the enzyme , which may be why people have to increase the frequency of people having to add more divided doses to avoid ID withdrawal. I don't know.

No way my doctor or husband would consider switching me to Librium. How did you get that to happen?

Thanks

Selah?

[[Sh...]]

With all the recent interest in PG as a solvent I posted this on the solvent thread and am re-posting it here.

 

*****************

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

*****************

 

Thanks SG!

:thumbsup:

 

Translation please....  how many ml of PG for 1mg of Clonazepam?

 

Thank you,

Shaani

 

[[...]]

With all the recent interest in PG as a solvent I posted this on the solvent thread and am re-posting it here.

 

*****************

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

*****************

 

Thanks SG!

:thumbsup:

 

Translation please....  how many ml of PG for 1mg of Clonazepam?

 

Thank you,

Shaani

 

Each ml of PG will dissolve 5.8mg K.  This stuff looks promising.

[[ga...]]

Hi gardener -

I think my 3a4 is hypersensitive from this. Depending on if I eat an inducing food or an inhibiting food for 3a4.

I was in Klonopin - my Nat2 enzyme was messed up. I've also spoken to someone who researched and said that Xanax in particular - but I am sure others - can upregulate the enzyme , which may be why people have to increase the frequency of people having to add more divided doses to avoid ID withdrawal. I don't know.

No way my doctor or husband would consider switching me to Librium. How did you get that to happen?

Thanks

Selah?

 

I think I just lucked out with my doctor. (Even when I had a husband, he had no interest in me and I could do as I pleased, so I guess that wasn't necessarily a bad thing, huh?) My medical group had no psychiatrist for a long time. I went out of the group to a pro-benzo psych nurse who got me hooked on Xanax when I knew nothing. Then my group got a temporary psychiatrist who has been there now for 6 months and he is very laid back and very anti-benzo and will do anything to help me get off. It helps that I also see a psychotherapist in the same group and he can read her notes to check up on me. So far it's working well. Unfortunately, I have no idea how long he will be with us. Every couple of months they extend his contract and he says it's the last time. And I tell him he's driving me crazy!! Too bad about your rigid doctor. My psych nurse was like that and I was very glad to get away from her.

 

I hope you can figure out how to start your taper again soon. Have you considered cutting every other day or every third day? Or diluting even more? I am on a very slow taper (and holding while i cross over) that will likely take me 2 years! But I will get there and that's what matters.

[[li...]]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this question but I don't understand the difference between titration and daily micro-cutting. Could someone explain that to me, please. I'm finding very difficult to follow the cut and hold method. Thank you.

[[ga...]]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this question but I don't understand the difference between titration and daily micro-cutting. Could someone explain that to me, please. I'm finding very difficult to follow the cut and hold method. Thank you.

 

Daily micro-tapering involves making a very weak dilution of your benzo so that you can make a teeny tiny cut every day rather than bigger cuts very 2-4 weeks. The idea is that you are going down a gently sloping ramp rather than jumping down steep stairs. Instead of jump-crash-recover-jump-crash-recover, you are going babystep-babystep-babystep. If you can find a pace that works for you, it's much less painful than the jump-crash method.

[[...]]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this question but I don't understand the difference between titration and daily micro-cutting. Could someone explain that to me, please. I'm finding very difficult to follow the cut and hold method. Thank you.

 

 

Hello, the medical definition of titration basically is:

 

•The goal might be to take as little of a drug as possible to get the desired effect like keeping your blood pressure or cholesterol in check. Your doctor might start you on a 20mg amount of a drug. If it doesn't have the desired outcome, she might increase it to 40mg.... and so on, until you are taking the least amount that has the best effect.

 

Micro tapering is kind of that way, only you are decreasing the amount daily to wean off the drug with as minimal nasty withdrawal effects as possible. So you are in essence trying to keep the side effects of withdrawal in check.

 

Cut and hold can be brutal, it was for me and for many others. I have been micro tapering since the 18th of this month and I can truly say it is SO much gentler than C+H. There are many people here to help you and give you support, just ask Hang in there, Rose

 

 

[[li...]]

Thanks G99 and rdb, baby steps makes sense!, I will try to figure out all the math involved on that method with my benzo brain 

[[ga...]]

Thanks G99 and rdb, baby steps makes sense!, I will try to figure out all the math involved on that method with my benzo brain 

 

Ah, but you don't have to figure out the math. Just post your details (exactly how much and how often and what med you are dosing) and one of our math/dilution gurus will show up and give you advice. That's how I got going!

[[li...]]

I think I will try to do the liquid titration method, my hands shake badly to be touching sensitive scales or to shave pills with a sharp blade. I will be posting soon my detailed info in order to get help with the taper. Thanks you.

[[ga...]]

I think I will try to do the liquid titration method, my hands shake badly to be touching sensitive scales or to shave pills with a sharp blade. I will be posting soon my detailed info in order to get help with the taper. Thanks you.

 

I'm with you on that! I was no good at dry cutting. My son did it for me when I tapered trazodone. It might help if you read up on some of the past posts on this thread. Different people have had different experiences with dry vs. liquid. And you will want to hold for at least a week when you switch to liquid because the liquid may affect you differently. Some people say it does and others notice no difference. But we will be here to help.

 

You can do it!!

[[do...]]

Doodle dog,

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.  I wonder how I will fare if I switch to liquid?  I would probably do part pills and part liquid though.

 

I know, I'm so thankful for folks like SG, Builder and Sharkey for helping us with the math

 

Bunny

 

Hello Bunny,

 

Yes, someone suggested that I try part pill and liquid combo too.  I may consider that.

 

Sorry to read that you have had some insomnia since cutting again.  The insomnia and vision problem made me go back to the pills for a few days.

 

With the dry method is it too hard to make the little cuts when you get  towards the end?

 

Take care,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle,

 

Yes I think the dry method is very hard to make small accurate cuts from.  That is why I'm considering the liquid, but will keep dry pills as part of the dose as long as I can.  I do believe that the liquid is absorbed by the body quicker and therefore doesn't last as long in terms of effect.  That's the part I'm not looking forward to.  Right now I'm dosing twice a day, I don't want to have to dose more often than that.  UGH!

 

Bunny

 

Hi Bunny,  It is true we are all different as far as sensitivity to medications go. Alcohol does permeate our mucous membranes very quickly, and when a medication is dissolved in it I would expect that medication to be felt a bit sooner. However, if the alcohol and benzo is mixed with water and drank it still has to go through the "first pass effect" namely processed by the liver, as do just plain pills. The fastest way for a med to take effect is through an IV, next would be intramuscular, and next, pills. IV effect is almost instantaneous, IM takes about 15 minutes or so, and pills 40 to 60 minutes. Then you have inhaled meds, sprayed meds, sublingual (under the tongue), and topical meds. So I'm thinking that if the med is dissolved and drank, you might feel it just a tad sooner, especially on a totally empty stomach. But I really don't think the effect passes sooner because it is still processed the same way, through the liver which works to detoxify the med as it recognizes it as poison, so to speak. With IV meds the liver is not in the picture, that is why the big dose difference between IV and oral.  I went from pills to liquid for MT and truly I never noticed the effect sooner or it wearing off sooner, but that is just me. I found the liquid method to be much less time consuming and less hassle since all I have to do is draw the dose up in a 60cc syringe and drink it down. Plus, being mixed in propylene glycol it isn't refridgerated, and it's good for at least two days.  Hope sharing a little knowledge didn't offend you- it's just stuff I learned in school. I just mentioned the other ways medications are administered for comparison to orally ingested meds.  Rose

 

Hello Rose,

 

That is such great info that you shared.  Thanks.

 

I read that you are using PG in your taper.  Where do you purchase yours at?  Or is it just available at any drug store?

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

 

Hi doodle, I ordered US food grade 99.9% pure kosher PG from Amazon. I use 2-3 ml to dissolve 1mg Xanax. 

 

Hey Rose,

 

Thanks so much for the info.  Much appreciated.

 

Is that a pic of you?  Nice pic.  You look very nice.

 

Here's to our healing.

doodle dog

 

[[do...]]

With all the recent interest in PG as a solvent I posted this on the solvent thread and am re-posting it here.

 

*****************

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

*****************

 

Hello SG,

 

Thanks so much.  So does this mean that it might not work to well with ativan?

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

[[do...]]

Trying to liquefy some doses one more time to give it a go,  before I decide to use a scale. I'm going to take my dose with a lot of food, to try and slow down the absorption rate. wish me luck, guys

 

Best of luck to you, Shannon.  I am trying to taper ativan too, so I am watching you closely.

 

Take care,

doodle dog

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

 

Hello SG,

 

Thanks so much.  So does this mean that it might not work to well with ativan?

 

Thanks,inl

doodle dog

  No, it just means there doesn't seem toi be any published research regarding ativan solubility in PG.

 

But the Roxane liquid ativan (lorazepam intensol) is a PG solvent-based product, so it is pretty much a certainty that it is in fact soluble in PG.

[[do...]]

Thanks we can and garden.

Sorry missed your response.

I know this is the micro tapering thread that's why I asked about the holding here. I am micro tapering. My signature is just randomly updated.

 

We can  -

I know about the DAO and histamine. Have done tons of research also had my 23and me results done so I know where my gene polymorphisms are.i am trying to figure out what people are doing for a micro taper then hold pattern and if that includes hormonal stuff how to adjust v

I have seen lots of different suggestions regarding micro tapering so wondered what people were using here that wirked the best.

I am cutting anywhere from .012 mg Valium to .024 mg. daily with holds related to menstruation.

But not holding otherwise so trying to figure out what else to do.

 

My Valium does not last (I am on the liquid Roxanne) - the first metabolite anyway. I have a gene that upregulate a that.

Thanks for any other input vi greatly appreciate it!

 

OK. I think I get it now. I am also a hyper-fast metabolizer of Valium (too much 2C19), so I am crossing over to Librium. Xanax and Librium are both metabolized by 3A4. Here's a link about liver enzymes that may be helpful. http://www.ct.gov/dcf/lib/dcf/ccmu/pdf/cyp_chart_nov_2013.pdf  Scroll down to BZD and you will see that Valium is metabolized differently from the other benzos and perhaps that's why some people have trouble with it.

 

I only had 2 genes tested (neither of them 3A4) but my thinking was that if Xanax used 3A4 and Librium used 3A4, at least I was going from a fast 3A4 to a slow 3A4 rather than switching to V, a 2C19-3A4-1A2-2B6-2C9. The simpler switch seemed safer to me but I am not a doctor or a geneticist, so take this with a grain of salt!

 

Wow Gardener, that's some great info.  Now you have joined the  club of people who make my head spin.

 

doodle

[[do...]]

 

 

 

 

Hello SG,

 

Thanks so much.  So does this mean that it might not work to well with ativan?

 

Thanks,inl

doodle dog

  No, it just means there doesn't seem toi be any published research regarding ativan solubility in PG.

 

But the Roxane liquid ativan (lorazepam intensol) is a PG solvent-based product, so it is pretty much a certainty that it is in fact soluble in PG.

 

Thanks so much, Builder.  You are great.