Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Se...]]

His harkey

I know everybody keeps telling me that. So I must be a freak. This is what I know - I have several genetic mutations , one of which is at the first pass metabolite of Valium - can't remember the name -  Cyp2c19 - so I think this is unregulated. But my next one may be down regulated.

I've been trying magnesium and b vitamins - all my vitMin levels are low.

But they interact with the drug. So hard to explain.

I have repeatedly played around and I think my liver is fried.

Anyway.

Will have to explain more at a later time.

When I eat certain things for dinner - then my night dose keeps me sleeping till the morning and I feel drunk the next day.

Other nights I only sleep 4 hours. Can't predict it except based on food.

Ok gotta go.

Thanks for the welcome.

I must be doing something wrong.

Blessings

Selah

[[ga...]]

 

I've gotten very good at living with it, but geesh, come on...this is ridiculously long.

 

It was great that your doc agreed to prescribe the small L caps.  That gives you so much flexibility, which is what we need when tapering.  If you feel well with the partial cross that seems like a valid way to taper and use up the X.  It seems to me the point is to feel well, so if you have that with the partial cross, why not do it.  And using up the X will allow you to stockpile the L for a rainy day, just in case.  Always good to have an extra supply.

 

That is an outstandingly excellent idea!

[[ga...]]

All you brave micro taperers.

What / is there a good rule of thumb for women tapering. In terms of holds etc.

I get bad interdose withdrawal. I am trying to take supplements as all my vitamins are low low.

Struggling.

Valium 3 times day in equal doses.

Also what supplements helped those who did taper successfully if any?

Thanks for your input.

Blessings

Selah

 

Hi Selah. I can't say there is a rule of thumb except to go with how you feel. Are you micro-tapering now or just considering it? We don't cut and hold here. We take a tiny step every day. A really tiny step. I have taken tiny steps every other day for awhile, too, when I was in bad shape.

 

Actually, I take part of that back. I am holding while I cross over from X to L, but I don't intend to hold for long, just now while I am early in the cross over.

 

I will say one thing about Valium-I can't take it. I had my liver enzymes tested and found out I am an ultra-rapid metabolizer of Valium. That's why I am crossing over from Xanax to Librium. Could be Valium is not a good med for you. You may benefit from dosing 4 times/day. And, if you're not micro-tapering, you would likely benefit from switching to that also.

 

Hope that was helpful. Feel free to ask more!

[[ga...]]

Hi BB's,

 

For the people who have been increasingly symptomatic after their switch to liquids after 3 weeks, and 4 weeks. (at full dose, no taper) how long do you suppose they wait until their systems adjust?

 

 

Shan

 

focus on solutions, not problems, right??

 

I sure wish I could help you with this Shan! The only thing I can relate to this is that I went through a month of holding (after a stupidly fast taper) and not getting better and decided to just start teeny tiny micro-tapering anyway. I continued to be very symptomatic and finally decided to start slowly crossing over to Librium. I'm much less symptomatic now. Don't know if it's the cross-over or if time finally got me past the big wave.

 

Hope you get to a better spot soon!

[[ga...]]

 

I'm sure it's somewhere here in the thread, but what is PAWS?

 

Thanks!

 

It's something like post acute withdrawal syndrome. It's what goes on after you've taken your last benzo.

 

Any news on your doctor hunt??

[[sh...]]

Hi SG57, Sharkey,

 

As you can see from my sig, I'm down to .135 mg K total. I dose twice a day, micro cutting about every other day. I've dropped 22% this month. Up until the .16 mg (ugh! point) I have felt tolerably good and functional.

 

Now I tremble inside constantly. I full body jerk when dropping off to sleep. The shaking is incorporated into my dreams and I awaken repeatedly. Within hours I'm exhausted. My lower limbs feel plugged into a TENS unit—that's ok. The trembling is basically the issue.

 

A number of Q's:

Have you had trembling, and if so, how long did it last?

Is it realist to think this will be with me even more intensely in acute?

Is there any merit to holding at this dose?

(My period makes symptoms worse and I usually hold several days ahead, when

I'm not being strong-willed)

Can stability be achieved at all at this low dose?

 

I distract as much as possible until I just have to go to bed.

I do not use supplements other than vitamin D.

 

Your replies are much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bennie

 

Hey Bennie,

 

I didn't really have trembling as a symptom.  As far as acute, if you are micro tapering,  you should be experiencing most of your symptoms as you reduce.  I am over 3 weeks off of benzos and I'm feeling pretty good.  I have some lingering stuff but I feel better than I did while tapering.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[ga...]]

 

I am over 3 weeks off of benzos and I'm feeling pretty good.  I have some lingering stuff but I feel better than I did while tapering.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

[[We...]]

 

I am over 3 weeks off of benzos and I'm feeling pretty good.  I have some lingering stuff but I feel better than I did while tapering.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

yay! that is so good to hear

[[Be...]]

Hi SG57, Sharkey,

 

As you can see from my sig, I'm down to .135 mg K total. I dose twice a day, micro cutting about every other day. I've dropped 22% this month. Up until the .16 mg (ugh! point) I have felt tolerably good and functional.

 

Now I tremble inside constantly. I full body jerk when dropping off to sleep. The shaking is incorporated into my dreams and I awaken repeatedly. Within hours I'm exhausted. My lower limbs feel plugged into a TENS unit—that's ok. The trembling is basically the issue.

 

A number of Q's:

Have you had trembling, and if so, how long did it last?

Is it realist to think this will be with me even more intensely in acute?

Is there any merit to holding at this dose?

(My period makes symptoms worse and I usually hold several days ahead, when

I'm not being strong-willed)

Can stability be achieved at all at this low dose?

 

I distract as much as possible until I just have to go to bed.

I do not use supplements other than vitamin D.

 

Your replies are much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bennie

 

Hey Bennie,

 

I didn't really have trembling as a symptom.  As far as acute, if you are micro tapering,  you should be experiencing most of your symptoms as you reduce.  I am over 3 weeks off of benzos and I'm feeling pretty good.  I have some lingering stuff but I feel better than I did while tapering.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Who hoo, Sharkey. I like hearing this kind of thing! Thanks!

[[Cl...]]

 

I am over 3 weeks off of benzos and I'm feeling pretty good.  I have some lingering stuff but I feel better than I did while tapering.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

yay! that is so good to hear

 

Yes! This is a GREAT thing to hear!  , well for you Sharkey!!!, after 2 days I still feel pretty much the same, intrusive thoughts this morning, little capacity to deal with stress and well, the weird feelings of my brain moving were very mild last night, I hope they stop soon.

A wonderful afternoon to all of you nice people in here!

SG57, Thank you for helping me in designing my taper 

[[We...]]

 

I am over 3 weeks off of benzos and I'm feeling pretty good.  I have some lingering stuff but I feel better than I did while tapering.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

yay! that is so good to hear

 

Yes! This is a GREAT thing to hear!  , well for you Sharkey!!!, after 2 days I still feel pretty much the same, intrusive thoughts this morning, little capacity to deal with stress and well, the weird feelings of my brain moving were very mild last night, I hope they stop soon.

A wonderful afternoon to all of you nice people in here!

SG57, Thank you for helping me in designing my taper 

 

Congrats again, Clona for being benzo free! You did a very good and careful taper so I'm sure you are well on your way to healing and these symptoms will not plague you for too long.

 

hugs to you,

shan

 

 

[[Be...]]

SG57,

 

Wow, a four day cut schedule. I hear ya. I'll slow it down. Maybe try this out from .135 mg dose and if things don't even out, then go back up.

 

I appreciate your help!

Have a good evening.

Your BB fan and friend,

Bennie

[[...]]

SG57,

 

Wow, a four day cut schedule. I hear ya. I'll slow it down. Maybe try this out from .135 mg dose and if things don't even out, then go back up.

 

I appreciate your help!

Have a good evening.

Your BB fan and friend,

Bennie

 

If you are thinking of going back up you need to act quickly.  Updosing is time dependent and it is like a closing window of opportunity.  You are already at 11 days.  The longer you wait the more of a gamble it becomes as to whether it will work.

[[ga...]]

SG57,

 

Wow, a four day cut schedule. I hear ya. I'll slow it down. Maybe try this out from .135 mg dose and if things don't even out, then go back up.

 

I appreciate your help!

Have a good evening.

Your BB fan and friend,

Bennie

 

If you are thinking of going back up you need to act quickly.  Updosing is time dependent and it is like a closing window of opportunity.  You are already at 11 days.  The longer you wait the more of a gamble it becomes as to whether it will work.

 

Ditto!

[[...]]

*****MATH QUESTION*****

 

you know how most people when they make the solution, they do 3ml alcohol and then 97ml water.

 

So what about 3ml alcohol and 7ml to make a 10ml solution. Is that doable (there is a reason I ask--I will get to it in a second) Can you get cylinders and syringes small enough to measure amounts needed for tapering a 10ml solution instead of 100ml. even when you get down to the lower doses and  need to make smaller and smaller cuts?

 

The going theory for the reason so many are sensitive to the liquids is absorption. And I figured, if we could make up 10ml batches, and then put each dose into a gel cap ( you can buy empty ones at health food stores) you could slow down the absorption.

 

each cap I have can hold about 1ml of solution, so if you'd need to transfer the premeasured dose into the caps (which is actually fairly easy) with a syringe. so you'd be taking about 10 of the caps per day.

 

Now I just need to know if making cuts with a 10ml solution is doable?

 

thanks in advance

shan

 

Hi Shannon, I was reading your post about using gelcaps to slow down absorption. Gelcaps won't slow absorption down very much because our stomach acid has hydrochloric acid in it to break down food and it is very powerful. Probally a more effective way would be to have some food in your stomach which would slow it down more than just gelcaps. You are wanting to MT Ativan which has the same half life as Xanax. I have been MT Xanax since the 18th and am at .425 mg per 24hrs, divided into 3 doses. Like Sharkey, Builder and others suggested, and I finally took their suggestions, it is much more accurate to use a larger amount of liquid after dissolving the med in alcohol or propylene glycol. Didn't you mention a while back that alcohol didn't sit well with you? I use PG and it doesn't upset my system at all. Anyway, I have found, as they have mentioned, the larger amount of fluid makes for a much smaller chance of inaccurate doses. I mix mine after dissolving with 397ml water, that provides 5+ doses, and it is so easy to draw the dose with a 60cc syringe. I store the solution in a qt jar in the cupboard where it is dark. Doing it this way is so much less complicated and less of a hassle than how I was doing it before. Before I switched methods I was having a horrible time with the effects of inaccurate doses even though I was so careful. I was only using milk to break sown the Xanax too which I'm sure contributed to the inaccuracy- though I would shake it really good. I think a 100 ml solution would work too for you. Anyways, just some thoughts for you to ponder. Take care, Rose  

[[We...]]

Thanks for your input, Rose. It's really good to hear the water/alcohol method is really working for you. And I like hearing the input from others as I haven't 100 % decided what I'm going to pursue for my microtaper.

 

I hope your taper continues to be good to you.

 

thanks again.

shan

[[do...]]

Doodle dog,

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.  I wonder how I will fare if I switch to liquid?  I would probably do part pills and part liquid though.

 

I know, I'm so thankful for folks like SG, Builder and Sharkey for helping us with the math

 

Bunny

 

Hello Bunny,

 

Yes, someone suggested that I try part pill and liquid combo too.  I may consider that.

 

Sorry to read that you have had some insomnia since cutting again.  The insomnia and vision problem made me go back to the pills for a few days.

 

With the dry method is it too hard to make the little cuts when you get  towards the end?

 

Take care,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle,

 

Yes I think the dry method is very hard to make small accurate cuts from.  That is why I'm considering the liquid, but will keep dry pills as part of the dose as long as I can.  I do believe that the liquid is absorbed by the body quicker and therefore doesn't last as long in terms of effect.  That's the part I'm not looking forward to.  Right now I'm dosing twice a day, I don't want to have to dose more often than that.  UGH!

 

Bunny

 

Hi Bunny,  It is true we are all different as far as sensitivity to medications go. Alcohol does permeate our mucous membranes very quickly, and when a medication is dissolved in it I would expect that medication to be felt a bit sooner. However, if the alcohol and benzo is mixed with water and drank it still has to go through the "first pass effect" namely processed by the liver, as do just plain pills. The fastest way for a med to take effect is through an IV, next would be intramuscular, and next, pills. IV effect is almost instantaneous, IM takes about 15 minutes or so, and pills 40 to 60 minutes. Then you have inhaled meds, sprayed meds, sublingual (under the tongue), and topical meds. So I'm thinking that if the med is dissolved and drank, you might feel it just a tad sooner, especially on a totally empty stomach. But I really don't think the effect passes sooner because it is still processed the same way, through the liver which works to detoxify the med as it recognizes it as poison, so to speak. With IV meds the liver is not in the picture, that is why the big dose difference between IV and oral.  I went from pills to liquid for MT and truly I never noticed the effect sooner or it wearing off sooner, but that is just me. I found the liquid method to be much less time consuming and less hassle since all I have to do is draw the dose up in a 60cc syringe and drink it down. Plus, being mixed in propylene glycol it isn't refridgerated, and it's good for at least two days.  Hope sharing a little knowledge didn't offend you- it's just stuff I learned in school. I just mentioned the other ways medications are administered for comparison to orally ingested meds.  Rose

 

Hello Rose,

 

That is such great info that you shared.  Thanks.

 

I read that you are using PG in your taper.  Where do you purchase yours at?  Or is it just available at any drug store?

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

[[ga...]]

*****MATH QUESTION*****

 

you know how most people when they make the solution, they do 3ml alcohol and then 97ml water.

 

So what about 3ml alcohol and 7ml to make a 10ml solution. Is that doable (there is a reason I ask--I will get to it in a second) Can you get cylinders and syringes small enough to measure amounts needed for tapering a 10ml solution instead of 100ml. even when you get down to the lower doses and  need to make smaller and smaller cuts?

 

The going theory for the reason so many are sensitive to the liquids is absorption. And I figured, if we could make up 10ml batches, and then put each dose into a gel cap ( you can buy empty ones at health food stores) you could slow down the absorption.

 

each cap I have can hold about 1ml of solution, so if you'd need to transfer the premeasured dose into the caps (which is actually fairly easy) with a syringe. so you'd be taking about 10 of the caps per day.

 

Now I just need to know if making cuts with a 10ml solution is doable?

 

thanks in advance

shan

 

Hi Shannon, I was reading your post about using gelcaps to slow down absorption. Gelcaps won't slow absorption down very much because our stomach acid has hydrochloric acid in it to break down food and it is very powerful. Probally a more effective way would be to have some food in your stomach which would slow it down more than just gelcaps. You are wanting to MT Ativan which has the same half life as Xanax. I have been MT Xanax since the 18th and am at .425 mg per 24hrs, divided into 3 doses. Like Sharkey, Builder and others suggested, and I finally took their suggestions, it is much more accurate to use a larger amount of liquid after dissolving the med in alcohol or propylene glycol. Didn't you mention a while back that alcohol didn't sit well with you? I use PG and it doesn't upset my system at all. Anyway, I have found, as they have mentioned, the larger amount of fluid makes for a much smaller chance of inaccurate doses. I mix mine after dissolving with 397ml water, that provides 5+ doses, and it is so easy to draw the dose with a 60cc syringe. I store the solution in a qt jar in the cupboard where it is dark. Doing it this way is so much less complicated and less of a hassle than how I was doing it before. Before I switched methods I was having a horrible time with the effects of inaccurate doses even though I was so careful. I was only using milk to break sown the Xanax too which I'm sure contributed to the inaccuracy- though I would shake it really good. I think a 100 ml solution would work too for you. Anyways, just some thoughts for you to ponder. Take care, Rose

 

Thanks for the info on the PG, Rose. I've been thinking about using that when I start dissolving my L. I am in the beginning of a cross-over from X to L. I was dosing X 6 times/day, using a 10% dilution, and still having symptoms all day most days. I think X was just a nasty med for me. I have only subbed in a small amount of L so far and feel much better. Eventually I will need to dissolve it and I am thinking I may use PG, if possible. It's good to hear that it works well for you!

[[Cl...]]

Thank you Shannon! All the best for you!

Daily Microtaper does work! I am having a 100% window today!

I like much this helpful thread! 

 

[[...]]

With all the recent interest in PG as a solvent I posted this on the solvent thread and am re-posting it here.

 

*****************

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

*****************

[[Se...]]

Hi. Wondering if anybody saw my post earlier regarding holding patterns and women. Also supplements.

Thanks

Selah

[[...]]

Doodle dog,

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.  I wonder how I will fare if I switch to liquid?  I would probably do part pills and part liquid though.

 

I know, I'm so thankful for folks like SG, Builder and Sharkey for helping us with the math

 

Bunny

 

Hello Bunny,

 

Yes, someone suggested that I try part pill and liquid combo too.  I may consider that.

 

Sorry to read that you have had some insomnia since cutting again.  The insomnia and vision problem made me go back to the pills for a few days.

 

With the dry method is it too hard to make the little cuts when you get  towards the end?

 

Take care,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle,

 

Yes I think the dry method is very hard to make small accurate cuts from.  That is why I'm considering the liquid, but will keep dry pills as part of the dose as long as I can.  I do believe that the liquid is absorbed by the body quicker and therefore doesn't last as long in terms of effect.  That's the part I'm not looking forward to.  Right now I'm dosing twice a day, I don't want to have to dose more often than that.  UGH!

 

Bunny

 

Hi Bunny,  It is true we are all different as far as sensitivity to medications go. Alcohol does permeate our mucous membranes very quickly, and when a medication is dissolved in it I would expect that medication to be felt a bit sooner. However, if the alcohol and benzo is mixed with water and drank it still has to go through the "first pass effect" namely processed by the liver, as do just plain pills. The fastest way for a med to take effect is through an IV, next would be intramuscular, and next, pills. IV effect is almost instantaneous, IM takes about 15 minutes or so, and pills 40 to 60 minutes. Then you have inhaled meds, sprayed meds, sublingual (under the tongue), and topical meds. So I'm thinking that if the med is dissolved and drank, you might feel it just a tad sooner, especially on a totally empty stomach. But I really don't think the effect passes sooner because it is still processed the same way, through the liver which works to detoxify the med as it recognizes it as poison, so to speak. With IV meds the liver is not in the picture, that is why the big dose difference between IV and oral.  I went from pills to liquid for MT and truly I never noticed the effect sooner or it wearing off sooner, but that is just me. I found the liquid method to be much less time consuming and less hassle since all I have to do is draw the dose up in a 60cc syringe and drink it down. Plus, being mixed in propylene glycol it isn't refridgerated, and it's good for at least two days.  Hope sharing a little knowledge didn't offend you- it's just stuff I learned in school. I just mentioned the other ways medications are administered for comparison to orally ingested meds.  Rose

 

Hello Rose,

 

That is such great info that you shared.  Thanks.

 

I read that you are using PG in your taper.  Where do you purchase yours at?  Or is it just available at any drug store?

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

 

Hi doodle, I ordered US food grade 99.9% pure kosher PG from Amazon. I use 2-3 ml to dissolve 1mg Xanax. 

[[sh...]]

*****MATH QUESTION*****

 

you know how most people when they make the solution, they do 3ml alcohol and then 97ml water.

 

So what about 3ml alcohol and 7ml to make a 10ml solution. Is that doable (there is a reason I ask--I will get to it in a second) Can you get cylinders and syringes small enough to measure amounts needed for tapering a 10ml solution instead of 100ml. even when you get down to the lower doses and  need to make smaller and smaller cuts?

 

The going theory for the reason so many are sensitive to the liquids is absorption. And I figured, if we could make up 10ml batches, and then put each dose into a gel cap ( you can buy empty ones at health food stores) you could slow down the absorption.

 

each cap I have can hold about 1ml of solution, so if you'd need to transfer the premeasured dose into the caps (which is actually fairly easy) with a syringe. so you'd be taking about 10 of the caps per day.

 

Now I just need to know if making cuts with a 10ml solution is doable?

 

thanks in advance

shan

 

Yes, this is doable by there is more room for error in your cuts.  That is why it is suggested to do 100ml.  I used 400ml in my titration plan but my was a little weird.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[sh...]]

With all the recent interest in PG as a solvent I posted this on the solvent thread and am re-posting it here.

 

*****************

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

*****************

 

Thanks SG!

:thumbsup:

[[Cl...]]

With all the recent interest in PG as a solvent I posted this on the solvent thread and am re-posting it here.

 

*****************

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

*****************

 

Yes, I read that by increasing the PG content in a mixture of PG-water, a higher solubility was observed, I read as well that the dissolution of clonazepam in pure PG is nearly 100%, thank you SG!