Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ra...]]

Doodle dog,

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.  I wonder how I will fare if I switch to liquid?  I would probably do part pills and part liquid though.

 

I know, I'm so thankful for folks like SG, Builder and Sharkey for helping us with the math

 

Bunny

 

Bun, have you considered using the intensol of the Xanax by Roxane that is already liquid and can be diluted with just water? (Maybe I already asked this and don't remember.)

 

Hi Gardner,

 

I have considered that, but it requires a trip to the doc, and then I need to decide do I want the whole dose in liquid?  I don't think I do.  Also the liquid Xanax is more expensive as I recall.  If I didn't do my whole dose in the liquid, I'd still have a script for liquid and then pills.  Hard to get that through insurance. 

 

I guess my biggest issue is that I don't think I want all liquid because I'm afraid it will cause me to have to dose more often creating more complication than there already is.  If I didn't have to work, it would be an easier decision.  I've already had to take 3 months off for my acute period and I don't want to take any more time off, don't think my company would tolerate much more time off, so I have to be careful that my symptoms are tolerable.  I have to travel by plane for my job, so that just complicates everything too, at least in my mind.

 

Thank you for that suggestion though 

 

Bunny

 

That's certainly understandable. I switched to the liquid a long time ago to avoid binders and fillers (which I tend to be sensitive to). When I started tapering I was dosing 5 times/day. As I got lower, I needed to go to 6. As I got lower, even that didn't work. Xanax seems to be a very bad drug for me. The Librium cross is going OK so far. Xanax and Librium are both metabolized by the same liver enzyme, so I'm crossing my fingers and hoping it makes for an easier cross-over.

 

I hope your cross to Librium goes well and you can smoothly taper down.  You just never know how this whole thing is going to go.  For some reason I thought Librium had a shorter half life than Xanax, no?

[[ga...]]

Doodle dog,

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.  I wonder how I will fare if I switch to liquid?  I would probably do part pills and part liquid though.

 

I know, I'm so thankful for folks like SG, Builder and Sharkey for helping us with the math

 

Bunny

 

Bun, have you considered using the intensol of the Xanax by Roxane that is already liquid and can be diluted with just water? (Maybe I already asked this and don't remember.)

 

Hi Gardner,

 

I have considered that, but it requires a trip to the doc, and then I need to decide do I want the whole dose in liquid?  I don't think I do.  Also the liquid Xanax is more expensive as I recall.  If I didn't do my whole dose in the liquid, I'd still have a script for liquid and then pills.  Hard to get that through insurance. 

 

I guess my biggest issue is that I don't think I want all liquid because I'm afraid it will cause me to have to dose more often creating more complication than there already is.  If I didn't have to work, it would be an easier decision.  I've already had to take 3 months off for my acute period and I don't want to take any more time off, don't think my company would tolerate much more time off, so I have to be careful that my symptoms are tolerable.  I have to travel by plane for my job, so that just complicates everything too, at least in my mind.

 

Thank you for that suggestion though 

 

Bunny

 

That's certainly understandable. I switched to the liquid a long time ago to avoid binders and fillers (which I tend to be sensitive to). When I started tapering I was dosing 5 times/day. As I got lower, I needed to go to 6. As I got lower, even that didn't work. Xanax seems to be a very bad drug for me. The Librium cross is going OK so far. Xanax and Librium are both metabolized by the same liver enzyme, so I'm crossing my fingers and hoping it makes for an easier cross-over.

 

I hope your cross to Librium goes well and you can smoothly taper down.  You just never know how this whole thing is going to go.  For some reason I thought Librium had a shorter half life than Xanax, no?

 

Librium's half life is about as long as Valium's when you include their active metabolites. It's metabolized by the same single liver enzyme as Xanax (Valium uses several enzymes), so I figured it would be easier to cross over from X to L than from X to V. Just a wild guess about that, but so far it seems to be working for me. Either that or I'm having a nice window this evening and am mistakenly thanking the Librium for it.  Time will tell!

[[ga...]]

Sadly, I've been around far too long...almost five years since my taper began in August of 2010.  It's gotten to the point that I can flip the numbers in my head I'm so familiar with them.

You have been benzo free for quite some time and still stay around to help others.  This is very kind and generous of you.  Acts of kindness make this world a better place.

 

It's weird.  My taper did not go well at all and I didn't really learn to taper properly until near the very end and I ended up with PAWS.  Yet I developed this passion for tapering.  Or maybe it is an obsessive thinking symptom, haha.  I find the best therapy for me is to use what I know to keep people from going through the mill like I did.  So in that sense I get a lot out of it.  I'm sure I'll tire of it at some point, but I've been at it for quite a while now.

 

Well, we're glad you're still here! Is your PAWS better now?

[[ga...]]

Hi MT team,

 

I have s question regarding propylene glycol as a solvent vs alcohol.  A pharmacist said she would suggest alcohol over PG.  Not sure why.  I  just find I am a bit more symptomatic on the full dose liquid using 4ml of Vodka to 1mg of Clonazepam. 96ml of water added.  Divided in half for two daily doses.  I have been doing so since July 6. I had one day where I used pills and symptoms were better.  I do not know if it is sensitivity to the liquid or to the alcohol.  I was wondering if PG is safe?  Is it prepared the same way as the alcohol and water?

 

Any guidance is appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

Shaani

 

I ditto this question!

[[...]]

Hi MT team,

 

I have s question regarding propylene glycol as a solvent vs alcohol.  A pharmacist said she would suggest alcohol over PG.  Not sure why.  I  just find I am a bit more symptomatic on the full dose liquid using 4ml of Vodka to 1mg of Clonazepam. 96ml of water added.  Divided in half for two daily doses.  I have been doing so since July 6. I had one day where I used pills and symptoms were better.  I do not know if it is sensitivity to the liquid or to the alcohol.  I was wondering if PG is safe?  Is it prepared the same way as the alcohol and water?

 

Any guidance is appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

Shaani

 

It may just be the liquid needs more time as it is common for the switch to cause temporary symptoms.  I would think PG could be used just like the alcohol.  It is commonly used to make all the Roxane liquid benzos.  In fact, I think it is the only ingredient that is always in the mix.  If you do try it you will be breaking new ground.  Jouyban did published data for K and V, so we have that to go by.  1ml of PG will dissolve 5.85mg K, so it is plenty soluble and also mixes fine with water.  But I am not aware of anyone using PG to do this yet.  I actually like PG for this use a lot.  It looks to me like it will work well and a bottle will last a very long time at a few mls a day.  I wish we had solubility data for all the benzos, but we do have V and K.

[[...]]

It's weird.  My taper did not go well at all and I didn't really learn to taper properly until near the very end and I ended up with PAWS.  Yet I developed this passion for tapering.  Or maybe it is an obsessive thinking symptom, haha.  I find the best therapy for me is to use what I know to keep people from going through the mill like I did.  So in that sense I get a lot out of it.  I'm sure I'll tire of it at some point, but I've been at it for quite a while now.

 

Well, we're glad you're still here! Is your PAWS better now?

 

Yeah, it's getting there.  I'm way better than I was and it is not all that difficult anymore, but still is enough to be a constant annoyance.  I hope to be out of the woods in six months or so.  To a point where it is not an issue anymore.  Once you get entrenched symptoms they can be difficult to get rid of so the key is to not get them in the first place.

[[do...]]

Sadly, I've been around far too long...almost five years since my taper began in August of 2010.  It's gotten to the point that I can flip the numbers in my head I'm so familiar with them.

You have been benzo free for quite some time and still stay around to help others.  This is very kind and generous of you.  Acts of kindness make this world a better place.

 

It's weird.  My taper did not go well at all and I didn't really learn to taper properly until near the very end and I ended up with PAWS.  Yet I developed this passion for tapering.  Or maybe it is an obsessive thinking symptom, haha.  I find the best therapy for me is to use what I know to keep people from going through the mill like I did.  So in that sense I get a lot out of it.  I'm sure I'll tire of it at some point, but I've been at it for quite a while now.

 

 

Hello SG,

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is PAWS?

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

 

[[...]]

Doodle dog,

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.  I wonder how I will fare if I switch to liquid?  I would probably do part pills and part liquid though.

 

I know, I'm so thankful for folks like SG, Builder and Sharkey for helping us with the math

 

Bunny

 

Hello Bunny,

 

Yes, someone suggested that I try part pill and liquid combo too.  I may consider that.

 

Sorry to read that you have had some insomnia since cutting again.  The insomnia and vision problem made me go back to the pills for a few days.

 

With the dry method is it too hard to make the little cuts when you get  towards the end?

 

Take care,

doodle dog

 

Hi Doodle,

 

Yes I think the dry method is very hard to make small accurate cuts from.  That is why I'm considering the liquid, but will keep dry pills as part of the dose as long as I can.  I do believe that the liquid is absorbed by the body quicker and therefore doesn't last as long in terms of effect.  That's the part I'm not looking forward to.  Right now I'm dosing twice a day, I don't want to have to dose more often than that.  UGH!

 

Bunny

 

Hi Bunny,  It is true we are all different as far as sensitivity to medications go. Alcohol does permeate our mucous membranes very quickly, and when a medication is dissolved in it I would expect that medication to be felt a bit sooner. However, if the alcohol and benzo is mixed with water and drank it still has to go through the "first pass effect" namely processed by the liver, as do just plain pills. The fastest way for a med to take effect is through an IV, next would be intramuscular, and next, pills. IV effect is almost instantaneous, IM takes about 15 minutes or so, and pills 40 to 60 minutes. Then you have inhaled meds, sprayed meds, sublingual (under the tongue), and topical meds. So I'm thinking that if the med is dissolved and drank, you might feel it just a tad sooner, especially on a totally empty stomach. But I really don't think the effect passes sooner because it is still processed the same way, through the liver which works to detoxify the med as it recognizes it as poison, so to speak. With IV meds the liver is not in the picture, that is why the big dose difference between IV and oral.  I went from pills to liquid for MT and truly I never noticed the effect sooner or it wearing off sooner, but that is just me. I found the liquid method to be much less time consuming and less hassle since all I have to do is draw the dose up in a 60cc syringe and drink it down. Plus, being mixed in propylene glycol it isn't refridgerated, and it's good for at least two days.  Hope sharing a little knowledge didn't offend you- it's just stuff I learned in school. I just mentioned the other ways medications are administered for comparison to orally ingested meds.  Rose

[[...]]

It's weird.  My taper did not go well at all and I didn't really learn to taper properly until near the very end and I ended up with PAWS.  Yet I developed this passion for tapering.  Or maybe it is an obsessive thinking symptom, haha.  I find the best therapy for me is to use what I know to keep people from going through the mill like I did.  So in that sense I get a lot out of it.  I'm sure I'll tire of it at some point, but I've been at it for quite a while now.

 

 

Hello SG,

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is PAWS?

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

 

PAWS is the name given to continued rough symptoms after the taper is done.  It stands for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome.  Totally avoidable with a proper taper.

[[bu...]]

 

 

Hi Bunny,  It is true we are all different as far as sensitivity to medications go. Alcohol does permeate our mucous membranes very quickly, and when a medication is dissolved in it I would expect that medication to be felt a bit sooner. However, if the alcohol and benzo is mixed with water and drank it still has to go through the "first pass effect" namely processed by the liver, as do just plain pills. The fastest way for a med to take effect is through an IV, next would be intramuscular, and next, pills. IV effect is almost instantaneous, IM takes about 15 minutes or so, and pills 40 to 60 minutes. Then you have inhaled meds, sprayed meds, sublingual (under the tongue), and topical meds. So I'm thinking that if the med is dissolved and drank, you might feel it just a tad sooner, especially on a totally empty stomach. But I really don't think the effect passes sooner because it is still processed the same way, through the liver which works to detoxify the med as it recognizes it as poison, so to speak. With IV meds the liver is not in the picture, that is why the big dose difference between IV and oral.  I went from pills to liquid for MT and truly I never noticed the effect sooner or it wearing off sooner, but that is just me. I found the liquid method to be much less time consuming and less hassle since all I have to do is draw the dose up in a 60cc syringe and drink it down. Plus, being mixed in propylene glycol it isn't refridgerated, and it's good for at least two days.  Hope sharing a little knowledge didn't offend you- it's just stuff I learned in school. I just mentioned the other ways medications are administered for comparison to orally ingested meds.  Rose

 

:thumbsup:

[[bu...]]

Hi MT team,

 

  I was wondering if PG is safe?  Is it prepared the same way as the alcohol and water?

 

Any guidance is appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

Shaani

  Yes, and yes.

 

PPG is a safe widely used food and pharma additive/solvent.  It is a powerful solvent, and can be extensively diluted with water.

[[ga...]]

It's weird.  My taper did not go well at all and I didn't really learn to taper properly until near the very end and I ended up with PAWS.  Yet I developed this passion for tapering.  Or maybe it is an obsessive thinking symptom, haha.  I find the best therapy for me is to use what I know to keep people from going through the mill like I did.  So in that sense I get a lot out of it.  I'm sure I'll tire of it at some point, but I've been at it for quite a while now.

 

Well, we're glad you're still here! Is your PAWS better now?

 

Yeah, it's getting there.  I'm way better than I was and it is not all that difficult anymore, but still is enough to be a constant annoyance.  I hope to be out of the woods in six months or so.  To a point where it is not an issue anymore.  Once you get entrenched symptoms they can be difficult to get rid of so the key is to not get them in the first place.

 

I'm so glad to hear you are getting past the PAWS and it is down to the annoyance stage! You're attitude and your willingness to help others while you are still symptomatic are so inspiring!

 

I can relate to your pattern of long misery followed by long annoyances from my experience with gluten-sensitive neuropathy a few years ago. It flared up so suddenly and was so exhausting that I felt like I aged 30 years overnight. I told my family to just pretend I was 80, not 50, and not to expect so much from me anymore.   When the neuropathy was the worst, each morning I wondered how I could get through another day. After a year of misery (with the doctors saying it would only get worse) and a year of healing (thanks to online help from the Institute for Neuropathic Pain in the Netherlands), the neuropathy is now just an annoyance most days.

 

I figure everybody ends up with these sort of problems as they get older any way. Old age is dealing with physical annoyances every day, kind of what we're all going through now. I tell my kids that I have had so much practice being old already that when I actually am old I am going to be really good at it!

 

And I think that's true for all of us who are benzo survivors! When we win this battle we will be better prepared for the next battle! We are not just becoming survivors. We are becoming conquerors!

 

(I type that while feeling kind of sleepy from my Librium, so I am a sleepy conqueror today. But still a conqueror!)

 

If Sharkey were here, he might say this off-topic speech belongs over on the blog. But he isn't here, is he? ( hehehe)

 

I'll say something on-topic to make this legit! I have my 7AM and 11PM doses as a 5mg L capsule plus a small amount of of X dilution now. I'm going to stay with that until this sleepiness improves and then sub 5mg L in for 1ml of my 3PM dose of X. You were right, those 5mg capsules of L sure are handy and I'm so glad I got them! I'm considering then micro-tapering the remaining X dilution away before I start dissolving and diluting the L. I know that's kind of weird, but if it works, it will give me much less L to try to dissolve.

[[ga...]]

 

PPG is a safe widely used food and pharma additive/solvent.  It is a powerful solvent, and can be extensively diluted with water.

 

There you are, builder! Good to see you here again!

[[...]]

Yeah, it's getting there.  I'm way better than I was and it is not all that difficult anymore, but still is enough to be a constant annoyance.  I hope to be out of the woods in six months or so.  To a point where it is not an issue anymore.  Once you get entrenched symptoms they can be difficult to get rid of so the key is to not get them in the first place.

I'm so glad to hear you are getting past the PAWS and it is down to the annoyance stage! You're attitude and your willingness to help others while you are still symptomatic are so inspiring!

 

I can relate to your pattern of long misery followed by long annoyances from my experience with gluten-sensitive neuropathy a few years ago. It flared up so suddenly and was so exhausting that I felt like I aged 30 years overnight. I told my family to just pretend I was 80, not 50, and not to expect so much from me anymore.   When the neuropathy was the worst, each morning I wondered how I could get through another day. After a year of misery (with the doctors saying it would only get worse) and a year of healing (thanks to online help from the Institute for Neuropathic Pain in the Netherlands), the neuropathy is now just an annoyance most days.

 

I figure everybody ends up with these sort of problems as they get older any way. Old age is dealing with physical annoyances every day, kind of what we're all going through now. I tell my kids that I have had so much practice being old already that when I actually am old I am going to be really good at it!

 

And I think that's true for all of us who are benzo survivors! When we win this battle we will be better prepared for the next battle! We are not just becoming survivors. We are becoming conquerors!

 

(I type that while feeling kind of sleepy from my Librium, so I am a sleepy conqueror today. But still a conqueror!)

 

If Sharkey were here, he might say this off-topic speech belongs over on the blog. But he isn't here, is he? ( hehehe)

 

I'll say something on-topic to make this legit! I have my 7AM and 11PM doses as a 5mg L capsule plus a small amount of of X dilution now. I'm going to stay with that until this sleepiness improves and then sub 5mg L in for 1ml of my 3PM dose of X. You were right, those 5mg capsules of L sure are handy and I'm so glad I got them! I'm considering then micro-tapering the remaining X dilution away before I start dissolving and diluting the L. I know that's kind of weird, but if it works, it will give me much less L to try to dissolve.

 

I've gotten very good at living with it, but geesh, come on...this is ridiculously long.

 

It was great that your doc agreed to prescribe the small L caps.  That gives you so much flexibility, which is what we need when tapering.  If you feel well with the partial cross that seems like a valid way to taper and use up the X.  It seems to me the point is to feel well, so if you have that with the partial cross, why not do it.  And using up the X will allow you to stockpile the L for a rainy day, just in case.  Always good to have an extra supply.

[[Se...]]

All you brave micro taperers.

What / is there a good rule of thumb for women tapering. In terms of holds etc.

I get bad interdose withdrawal. I am trying to take supplements as all my vitamins are low low.

Struggling.

Valium 3 times day in equal doses.

Also what supplements helped those who did taper successfully if any?

Thanks for your input.

Blessings

Selah

[[Be...]]

Hi SG57, Sharkey,

 

As you can see from my sig, I'm down to .135 mg K total. I dose twice a day, micro cutting about every other day. I've dropped 22% this month. Up until the .16 mg (ugh! point) I have felt tolerably good and functional.

 

Now I tremble inside constantly. I full body jerk when dropping off to sleep. The shaking is incorporated into my dreams and I awaken repeatedly. Within hours I'm exhausted. My lower limbs feel plugged into a TENS unit—that's ok. The trembling is basically the issue.

 

A number of Q's:

Have you had trembling, and if so, how long did it last?

Is it realist to think this will be with me even more intensely in acute?

Is there any merit to holding at this dose?

(My period makes symptoms worse and I usually hold several days ahead, when

I'm not being strong-willed)

Can stability be achieved at all at this low dose?

 

I distract as much as possible until I just have to go to bed.

I do not use supplements other than vitamin D.

 

Your replies are much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bennie

[[We...]]

Hi BB's,

 

For the people who have been increasingly symptomatic after their switch to liquids after 3 weeks, and 4 weeks. (at full dose, no taper) how long do you suppose they wait until their systems adjust?

 

 

Shan

 

focus on solutions, not problems, right??

 

 

 

 

 

[[Sh...]]

Hi MT team,

 

  I was wondering if PG is safe?  Is it prepared the same way as the alcohol and water?

 

Any guidance is appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

Shaani

  Yes, and yes.

 

PPG is a safe widely used food and pharma additive/solvent.  It is a powerful solvent, and can be extensively diluted with water.

 

Builder, Questions...1) Any idea why a pharmacist might prefer alcohol over PG? Again, one person's opinion.  2)  Do you know of anyone who has used PG and Clonazepam during a taper?  3) How much PG to .5mg of Clonazepam? Then, how much water would I add.  Or better yet, 1mg of Clonazepam to PG and water.  I get overwhelmed with detailed explanations.    4) Would it be reasonable for it to take a month or longer to adjust to the liquid at full dose?  I am noticing more head pressure and headaches lately. A bit of facial tension and teeth are sensitive.  Manageable,  but cause anxiety.  Anxiety may be due to over thinking the symptoms and anticipating the WDs along with starting the new job which adds a little stress.  I am just looking for reassurance, which several of you have been so kind to offer on several occasions. I do appreciate all of you. I am just a bit of an introvert who is often forced to act like an extrovert. I will write more on Gardener's MT blog about such things.  Thanks everyone.  Toda rabah!  Shaani /color]

[[...]]

Hi SG57, Sharkey,

 

As you can see from my sig, I'm down to .135 mg K total. I dose twice a day, micro cutting about every other day. I've dropped 22% this month. Up until the .16 mg (ugh! point) I have felt tolerably good and functional.

 

Now I tremble inside constantly. I full body jerk when dropping off to sleep. The shaking is incorporated into my dreams and I awaken repeatedly. Within hours I'm exhausted. My lower limbs feel plugged into a TENS unit—that's ok. The trembling is basically the issue.

 

A number of Q's:

Have you had trembling, and if so, how long did it last?

Is it realist to think this will be with me even more intensely in acute?

Is there any merit to holding at this dose?

(My period makes symptoms worse and I usually hold several days ahead, when

I'm not being strong-willed)

Can stability be achieved at all at this low dose?

 

I distract as much as possible until I just have to go to bed.

I do not use supplements other than vitamin D.

 

Your replies are much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bennie

 

Hi Bennie,

 

It seems you have been tapering in a straight line?  Pretty much the same rate all along?  You may have used up that cut.  If symptoms are getting worse, which is what it sounds like, you may need to hold/updose, then consider a slower rate.  How long ago was .16mg (when you last felt okay)?  You may be able to jump back there to feel good again if it wasn't too long ago.

 

As we get lower and lower the same cut exposes MORE receptors so we need to adjust for that by slowing down.  You may want to consider cutting your rate in half.  It will take longer, but you may begin to slowly improve as you go and arrive at zero in better shape.  But first I'd address the current symptoms as they sound a bit harsh.

 

I don't know what acute is.  My experience and expectation is the way you feel after your last dose is the way you will continue to feel and you will get gradually better from there.  So it pays to feel good during the taper.  That way when you step off you are about done.

[[Be...]]

Hi SG57, Sharkey,

 

As you can see from my sig, I'm down to .135 mg K total. I dose twice a day, micro cutting about every other day. I've dropped 22% this month. Up until the .16 mg (ugh! point) I have felt tolerably good and functional.

 

Now I tremble inside constantly. I full body jerk when dropping off to sleep. The shaking is incorporated into my dreams and I awaken repeatedly. Within hours I'm exhausted. My lower limbs feel plugged into a TENS unit—that's ok. The trembling is basically the issue.

 

A number of Q's:

Have you had trembling, and if so, how long did it last?

Is it realist to think this will be with me even more intensely in acute?

Is there any merit to holding at this dose?

(My period makes symptoms worse and I usually hold several days ahead, when

I'm not being strong-willed)

Can stability be achieved at all at this low dose?

 

I distract as much as possible until I just have to go to bed.

I do not use supplements other than vitamin D.

 

Your replies are much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bennie

 

Hi Bennie,

 

It seems you have been tapering in a straight line?  Pretty much the same rate all along?  You may have used up that cut.  If symptoms are getting worse, which is what it sounds like, you may need to hold/updose, then consider a slower rate.  How long ago was .16mg (when you last felt okay)?  You may be able to jump back there to feel good again if it wasn't too long ago.

 

As we get lower and lower the same cut exposes MORE receptors so we need to adjust for that by slowing down.  You may want to consider cutting your rate in half.  It will take longer, but you may begin to slowly improve as you go and arrive at zero in better shape.  But first I'd address the current symptoms as they sound a bit harsh.

 

I don't know what acute is.  My experience and expectation is the way you feel after your last dose is the way you will continue to feel and you will get gradually better from there.  So it pays to feel good during the taper.  That way when you step off you are about done.

 

Thanks SG57,

 

More thoughts and Q's:

 

.16 mg was about 15 days ago. Currently I cut .0029 mg every other day. So maybe if I back up a few cuts and do every 3rd or 4th day? I figure I have about 45 more cuts to go. If I slow things down to this pace it will be 4.5 more months to get off .15 mg, if I backed up to that dose. Yikes. Really? Am I doing the calculation correctly? Could I just hold here at .135 mg and wait for my brain to stabilize at this rate? Man, this is a bummer. But yeah, symptoms are harsh. I haven't wanted to go to titration for numerous reasons, including it may feel like a cut. Still want to stick with dry cutting.what about the trembling....experience it?

 

Wish you felt better too.

 

Bennie

[[We...]]

*****MATH QUESTION*****

 

you know how most people when they make the solution, they do 3ml alcohol and then 97ml water.

 

So what about 3ml alcohol and 7ml to make a 10ml solution. Is that doable (there is a reason I ask--I will get to it in a second) Can you get cylinders and syringes small enough to measure amounts needed for tapering a 10ml solution instead of 100ml. even when you get down to the lower doses and  need to make smaller and smaller cuts?

 

The going theory for the reason so many are sensitive to the liquids is absorption. And I figured, if we could make up 10ml batches, and then put each dose into a gel cap ( you can buy empty ones at health food stores) you could slow down the absorption.

 

each cap I have can hold about 1ml of solution, so if you'd need to transfer the premeasured dose into the caps (which is actually fairly easy) with a syringe. so you'd be taking about 10 of the caps per day.

 

Now I just need to know if making cuts with a 10ml solution is doable?

 

thanks in advance

shan

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Bennie,

 

It seems you have been tapering in a straight line?  Pretty much the same rate all along?  You may have used up that cut.  If symptoms are getting worse, which is what it sounds like, you may need to hold/updose, then consider a slower rate.  How long ago was .16mg (when you last felt okay)?  You may be able to jump back there to feel good again if it wasn't too long ago.

 

As we get lower and lower the same cut exposes MORE receptors so we need to adjust for that by slowing down.  You may want to consider cutting your rate in half.  It will take longer, but you may begin to slowly improve as you go and arrive at zero in better shape.  But first I'd address the current symptoms as they sound a bit harsh.

 

I don't know what acute is.  My experience and expectation is the way you feel after your last dose is the way you will continue to feel and you will get gradually better from there.  So it pays to feel good during the taper.  That way when you step off you are about done.

Thanks SG57,

 

More thoughts and Q's:

 

.16 mg was about 11 days ago. Currently I cut .0029 mg every other day. So maybe if I back up a few cuts and do every 3rd or 4th day? I figure I have about 45 more cuts to go. If I slow things down to this pace it will be 4.5 more months to get off .15 mg, if I backed up to that dose. Yikes. Really? Am I doing the calculation correctly? Could I just hold here at .135 mg and wait for my brain to stabilize at this rate? Man, this is a bummer. But yeah, symptoms are harsh. I haven't wanted to go to titration for numerous reasons, including it may feel like a cut. Still want to stick with dry cutting.what about the trembling....experience it?

 

Wish you felt better too.

 

Bennie

 

No, I never had trembling or even anxiety.  With me it was always my brain...cognition and flat emotions, dp, poor sleep, and this weird neurological thing where I have an unstoppable urge to press my teeth together.  I wear a guard to suppress that...very effective.

 

Eleven days is not too bad.  It might be worth it to jump back there and hold and see if you regain what you had.  Then, when you feel ready, maybe try a slow taper and see if you can get yourself trending toward improvement rather than getting worse.  I'd go with .0029mg every four days at your dose (.00075mg/day).  You want to give your body a larger buffer so it can take care of more than the cut each day to work on existing symptoms.  I don't like to see four-day cut periods, but it may be okay.

 

Yes, you are doing the calculation right.  The very end can take a very long time.  But don't let the time trick you.  Time you spend now feeling better is time you won't spend on the other side waiting to feel better.  It all comes out in the wash either way, but this way you won't suffer as much.

[[Ul...]]

You have to listen to your own body when cutting. don't let the amount of time you have left be discouraging. it is your taper and you can go as slow as you want. I know it is easy to be in a hurry but don't be. It only causes anxiety. My taper is very slow because of sxs and also other issues that life has thrown my way. steady and slow said the tortoise to the hare! good luck and take care of you first.

 

Thanks,  body says cutting more near end is good, bc sxs now not bad. Had terrible tol wd, which makes a turtle pace unwise, and doesn't seem nec, considering I responded well to a "fast" but safe reduction from 8 mg.  Had I listened to similar advice in the beginning, I would have never known that a 10% cut/hold was not hell, but okay!  My question is what is a safe equivalent of micro daily cuts when I reach 1mg?  .003grams, .004?  I like to cut in safe and reasonable ranges, but don't know what they are with daily micro.  If anyone can advise, many many thanks!  Waverider

 

Holy snot, NYC!! You went from 7mg of Klonopin to 2.2mg in 5 MONTHS??!! How in the world did you do that? I was a little over 5mg for 12 years or so (21 1/2 years total on a benzo...started at 3mg). I'm having a hard time just moving along like I am right now. I'm at about 2.3mg/day.

 

Thanks!

 

Hasn't been a walk in the park, but not agony either...still work,  exercise, live, laugh.  A post I wrote with a few things that have helped.  Best of luck to you!  WR

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137626.0

 

Wow!  That sounds nice. I did the 10% cut from 5mg/day of K to 3mg/day, and that about killed me. At that time, I had no idea what scale cutting or liquid titration was, and I had never even heard of Benzo Buddies, Dr. Ashton, etc. It was an unbelievably brutal time. Looking back, I'm truly not sure how I survived that period of time. Maybe 21+ years at such a mega dose (8mg/day at one time) was just too much damage to the body. I obviously learned later about the liquid titration, and that made things a ton more manageable, and I still can't imagine myself going at the rate you currently are. I too do the meditation, magnesium/vit. D

"treatments", exercise, breathing and stretching, etc. It all helps. I'm also lucky because I have an incredibly supportive wife. She's recently been through advanced stage breast cancer for a couple years, so that made things really tough for everyone.

 

Life goes on. Congratulations, and have a super day!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

It's weird.  My taper did not go well at all and I didn't really learn to taper properly until near the very end and I ended up with PAWS.  Yet I developed this passion for tapering.  Or maybe it is an obsessive thinking symptom, haha.  I find the best therapy for me is to use what I know to keep people from going through the mill like I did.  So in that sense I get a lot out of it.  I'm sure I'll tire of it at some point, but I've been at it for quite a while now.

 

Well, we're glad you're still here! Is your PAWS better now?

 

Yeah, it's getting there.  I'm way better than I was and it is not all that difficult anymore, but still is enough to be a constant annoyance.  I hope to be out of the woods in six months or so.  To a point where it is not an issue anymore.  Once you get entrenched symptoms they can be difficult to get rid of so the key is to not get them in the first place.

 

I'm sure it's somewhere here in the thread, but what is PAWS?

 

Thanks!

[[sh...]]

All you brave micro taperers.

What / is there a good rule of thumb for women tapering. In terms of holds etc.

I get bad interdose withdrawal. I am trying to take supplements as all my vitamins are low low.

Struggling.

Valium 3 times day in equal doses.

Also what supplements helped those who did taper successfully if any?

Thanks for your input.

Blessings

Selah

 

Hey Selah and welcome to the group!

 

You shouldn't have inter dose withdrawal when dosing Valium 3 times a day.  I took and still sometimes take theanine, kava root, valerian, magnesium and melatonin to help with symptoms.  I try to alternate what I take so I don't build a tolerance to the natural stuff.

 

Stay strong!

Sharkey