Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

Hi Sharkey. I am wanting to do micro tapering, but my sleep is so awful and my brain is so befuddled I can't figure out how to do it. 

 

I'm at 1.1ml alprazolam intensol and have been holding while I get over my last cut of .02 ml. It was awful.

 

How much should I be trying to cut per day? And how would I do it?

 

Anyone else with a brain working better than mine, please chime in!

 

Thanks.

 

Garnder,

 

You are using liquid X now right? may I ask your conversion rate. does 2ml of the liquid equal 1mg of the x? etc.

 

and why are you dosing 6 times per day? does this medication have a shorter half life in the system? I know I am using Ativan and dosing 4 times a day. I wonder if you could dose 4 times to save you some hassle, and it may even be better for you. I don't know about your particular med, so that is why I'm asking.

 

Also, I know Sharky recommending doing daily cuts of 0.0025mg. You could only do that if you we figured out how much liquid you take and how to dilute it to make a good solution for you.

 

If you provide some of the info, I could help you out.

 

Shannon

 

Hi WeCan. It's 1ml=1mg, so that part is simple. I have a 1 ml oral syringe. The smallest marking on my oral syringe is .02ml. So that's .02mg. Each .02ml seems to equal one drop, so there's no way to measure less than that with this liquid.

 

  Of course there is.  You simply dilute that liquid 9:1.  so now 10ml=1mg, and .02mg=.2ml.  It's really easy to measure .2ml on your syringe.  Or .1, or .06 or .04, even .02, which is now .002mg

 

If you don't dilute, there really is not much advantage to using liquid.  Dilution is what makes it possible to measure very tiny, precise dose decrements.

 

Just FYI...  Intensols are formulated specifically to be diluted.  They are concentrated liquids, and were not really intended to be used full strength.

 

"An Intensol is a concentrated oral solution as compared to standard oral liquid medications. It is recommended that an Intensol be mixed with liquid or semi-solid food such as water, juices, soda or soda-like beverages, applesauce and puddings."

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=4919

[[We...]]

Yes! Yes! Yes! Luckily, for you, Builder is spot on.

 

You have an intensol solution already, so you can dilute it in water to make it even easier to cut smaller doses.

So, right now you have the solution that is 1ml=1mg. What you would want to do is take 1ml of your medicine, and put it in 9ml of water. That means you will then have a 10ml solution that equals 1mg.

So now that every 10ml of solution = 1mg.  You can measure out even smaller doses with your syringe to do daily small cuts or daily micro tapers.

 

What is the amount of each dose you are taking on the 6 times a day. Once you tell us that, we can figure out how many ml of your new diluted solution that equals. You can switch over to taking your ne diluted solution daily just to make sure you adjust to it, and then you can start tapering down again.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Sleep well and talk to you soon

shannon

[[sh...]]

Hi Sharkey. I am wanting to do micro tapering, but my sleep is so awful and my brain is so befuddled I can't figure out how to do it. 

 

I'm at 1.1ml alprazolam intensol and have been holding while I get over my last cut of .02 ml. It was awful.

 

How much should I be trying to cut per day? And how would I do it?

 

Anyone else with a brain working better than mine, please chime in!

 

Thanks.

 

Garnder,

 

You are using liquid X now right? may I ask your conversion rate. does 2ml of the liquid equal 1mg of the x? etc.

 

and why are you dosing 6 times per day? does this medication have a shorter half life in the system? I know I am using Ativan and dosing 4 times a day. I wonder if you could dose 4 times to save you some hassle, and it may even be better for you. I don't know about your particular med, so that is why I'm asking.

 

Also, I know Sharky recommending doing daily cuts of 0.0025mg. You could only do that if you we figured out how much liquid you take and how to dilute it to make a good solution for you.

 

If you provide some of the info, I could help you out.

 

Shannon

 

Hi WeCan. It's 1ml=1mg, so that part is simple. I have a 1 ml oral syringe. The smallest marking on my oral syringe is .02ml. So that's .02mg. Each .02ml seems to equal one drop, so there's no way to measure less than that with this liquid.

 

  Of course there is.  You simply dilute that liquid 9:1.  so now 10ml=1mg, and .02mg=.2ml.  It's really easy to measure .2ml on your syringe.  Or .1, or .06 or .04, even .02, which is now .002mg

 

If you don't dilute, there really is not much advantage to using liquid.  Dilution is what makes it possible to measure very tiny, precise dose decrements.

 

Just FYI...  Intensols are formulated specifically to be diluted.  They are concentrated liquids, and were not really intended to be used full strength.

 

"An Intensol is a concentrated oral solution as compared to standard oral liquid medications. It is recommended that an Intensol be mixed with liquid or semi-solid food such as water, juices, soda or soda-like beverages, applesauce and puddings."

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=4919

 

  Couldn't have said it better myself 

[[sh...]]

 

I think during tapers, our nervous systems get really sensitive, so many things that are supposed to help us, can make us feel worse like a paradoxal reaction.

 

That's for sure!

 

I actually felt high, though. Which has never happened. Now I feel normal. I'm just scared about accidentally updosing somehow.

 

I wouldn't worry about updosing. The pharmacists are pretty accurate with their compounding. Just make sure you are taking the prescribed amount of liquid, and you will be fine. Perhaps you felt high because you absorbed it more rapidly than you do the pills. I know that I absorb pills and liquids differently.

 

I would give it a week and I bet your system will be use to liquid and you won't notice the 'high' feeling anymore. Of course, I could be wrong, but many people have to adjust to liquids. Give it some time and don't make any more cuts until you adjust to the liquid.

 

hang in there

 

Shannon

 

Stephen,

 

I think this could be the reason also. It absorbs faster so you felt the effects stronger.  I would keep at it and see what happens.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[bu...]]

Yes! Yes! Yes! Luckily, for you, Builder is spot on.

 

You have an intensol solution already, so you can dilute it in water to make it even easier to cut smaller doses.

So, right now you have the solution that is 1ml=1mg. What you would want to do is take 1ml of your medicine, and put it in 9ml of water. That means you will then have a 10ml solution that equals 1mg.

So now that every 10ml of solution = 1mg.  You can measure out even smaller doses with your syringe to do daily small cuts or daily micro tapers.

 

What is the amount of each dose you are taking on the 6 times a day. Once you tell us that, we can figure out how many ml of your new diluted solution that equals. You can switch over to taking your ne diluted solution daily just to make sure you adjust to it, and then you can start tapering down again.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Sleep well and talk to you soon

shannon

 

:thumbsup:

[[no...]]

 

 

I think during tapers, our nervous systems get really sensitive, so many things that are supposed to help us, can make us feel worse like a paradoxal reaction.

 

 

 

 

That's for sure!

 

I actually felt high, though. Which has never happened. Now I feel normal. I'm just scared about accidentally updosing somehow.

 

 

Hi Steve   its normal for this to happen to some people and nothing to worry about, It happened to a young lady named Coco Moanikeala as she explains in the first ten minutes her youtube video about her own Benzodiazepine WD  https://youtu.be/W7S25Nw7piw. I hope it helps you to hear it .

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

 

Thanks, builder. I will show your directions to my son, who will not mess up the math.

 

I actually do have advantages from using a liquid up until now. Up to this point, cutting by .02, the reductions have been very easy and precise. Much easier than trying to cut pills.  Plus, I have Celiac and have found that many binders, fillings, and coatings in pills contain gluten or the pill itself has been exposed to gluten on the manufacturing line. I went to the liquid to avoid that. So, that's actually why I am stuck trying to figure out how to dilute and do micro tapering from an intensol rather than from a pill. The intensols seem to be unstable compared to pills, so I worry about the diluting and storage of them and the manufacturer won't help. All they care about is covering their *ss.

 

Yes, the intensols are concentrated and unflavored so they taste AWFUL. That's why they say to mix them into something. I used to mix my intensol with water and drink the water. But the directions say to consume the entire amount of the mixture immediately after mixing it. I called the manufacturer and all they would do is repeat what was in the pamphlet. So that doesn't really help me to know if the intensol is mixing evenly and whether or not I can store my day's doses. Also, intensol cannot be refrigerated. When I read about liquid titration from pills, people are refrigerating their preparations. That's out for me. I wish I could find someone who has done this and explained it all step by step the way it is posted with the directions for making, measuring, and storing liquids from pills. And I wish I could have my functioning brain back! 

[[bu...]]

 

Thanks, builder. I will show your directions to my son, who will not mess up the math.

 

I actually do have advantages from using a liquid up until now. Up to this point, cutting by .02, the reductions have been very easy and precise. Much easier than trying to cut pills.  Plus, I have Celiac and have found that many binders, fillings, and coatings in pills contain gluten or the pill itself has been exposed to gluten on the manufacturing line. I went to the liquid to avoid that. So, that's actually why I am stuck trying to figure out how to dilute and do micro tapering from an intensol rather than from a pill. The intensols seem to be unstable compared to pills, so I worry about the diluting and storage of them and the manufacturer won't help. All they care about is covering their *ss.

 

Liquid Benzos, including the Intensols, are NOT "unstable".  They are true solutions, not suspensions, and have a long shelf-life.  The discussion about diluting and saving has already been on BB.  All liquid benzos are made by dissolving dry med in a solvent,either alcohol or glycol, then diluting that solution with water, and storing it in a sealed container.  They are doing exactly what the PIL says you can't do.  Many BBs are preparing 3 to 5 day batches of diluted liquid benzos, both conventional "oral solutions" and "Intensols", with no negative consequences.

Yes, the intensols are concentrated and unflavored so they taste AWFUL. That's why they say to mix them into something. I used to mix my intensol with water and drink the water. But the directions say to consume the entire amount of the mixture immediately after mixing it. I called the manufacturer and all they would do is repeat what was in the pamphlet. So that doesn't really help me to know if the intensol is mixing evenly and whether or not I can store my day's doses. Also, intensol cannot be refrigerated. When I read about liquid titration from pills, people are refrigerating their preparations. 

 

No, the mfgr is not going to tell you anything that contradicts what they have published in writing, even if what they have published is illlogical.  And again, Rx liquid are true solutions, not suspensions, and are physically and pharmacologially stable.  And since they are true solutions, the active med is evenly distributed, and will be evenly distributed even when diluted.  If the original form of the liquid med can be (should be!) stored at room temp, just adding water will not change that.  Adding water will not make it perishable.  If the original med should be stored at room temp, then the diluted batch should be stored at room temp.  I used Rx liquid V for 2 years, mixed batches to last 10-14 days, and always kept it at room temp.

 

That's out for me. I wish I could find someone who has done this and explained it all step by step the way it is posted with the directions for making, measuring, and storing liquids from pills. And I wish I could have my functioning brain back! 

[[en...]]

Sharkey,

 

How did you do on your large cuts in February and March? I'm still on 1.25, have to wait until next week to do a cut. Not sure when to start the liquid taper.

[[sh...]]

Sharkey,

 

How did you do on your large cuts in February and March? I'm still on 1.25, have to wait until next week to do a cut. Not sure when to start the liquid taper.

 

The large cuts were terrible.  I had very bad physical symptoms including eye irritation, tingling down my arms and legs, very sore muscles, insomnia, very bad anxiety, etc.  Some days I felt like i was in a tunnel, that is the only way I can describe it.  I would highly discourage anyone from trying this if they are a long time user.

 

 

[[en...]]

Thanks Sharkey

 

I assumed it wasn't a good time. I'm still struggling with head pressure and migraines. All my other symptoms are gone. I thought I'd try cutting 1/8 mg. a couple times and see how my body reacts, then start the liquid taper.

 

Thanks for the onfo.

[[bu...]]

OK, here's a point that some folks seem to miss:  Its dilution that makes micro possible. 

 

You will not be able to make "micro" measurements using 1mg=1ml, or 2mg=1ml liquid.  Realistically, you need a ratio of 1mg=10ml, or even higher.  Diaz-Pam and some others actually prefer a ratio of 1mg=100ml.  Personally, I don't think that much dilution is needed, but it doesn't cause any problems, either.  (and I guess it makes the "math" simpler for some folks)

[[We...]]

Sharkey,

 

How did you do on your large cuts in February and March? I'm still on 1.25, have to wait until next week to do a cut. Not sure when to start the liquid taper.

 

The large cuts were terrible.  I had very bad physical symptoms including eye irritation, tingling down my arms and legs, very sore muscles, insomnia, very bad anxiety, etc.  Some days I felt like i was in a tunnel, that is the only way I can describe it.  I would highly discourage anyone from trying this if they are a long time user.

 

Amen, to that ,Sharky! The big dry cuts were horrible for me, too. I'm so glad I discovered Microtaper. I will recommend this to all people now. I think it has to do with what SCG posted here earlier. The more optimal curve our receptors can regenerate and how that is more possible when we do the little tiny daily cuts. verses the big  chunk cut and holds.

Shannon

[[an...]]

Sharkey,

 

How did you do on your large cuts in February and March? I'm still on 1.25, have to wait until next week to do a cut. Not sure when to start the liquid taper.

 

The large cuts were terrible.  I had very bad physical symptoms including eye irritation, tingling down my arms and legs, very sore muscles, insomnia, very bad anxiety, etc.  Some days I felt like i was in a tunnel, that is the only way I can describe it.  I would highly discourage anyone from trying this if they are a long time user.

 

Hi Sharkey,

 

How long after the two large cuts did you start the microtaper?  Had you stabilized from the large cuts before you started the microtaper? 

 

Thanks

 

Anne

[[sh...]]

Sharkey,

 

How did you do on your large cuts in February and March? I'm still on 1.25, have to wait until next week to do a cut. Not sure when to start the liquid taper.

 

The large cuts were terrible.  I had very bad physical symptoms including eye irritation, tingling down my arms and legs, very sore muscles, insomnia, very bad anxiety, etc.  Some days I felt like i was in a tunnel, that is the only way I can describe it.  I would highly discourage anyone from trying this if they are a long time user.

 

Hi Sharkey,

 

How long after the two large cuts did you start the microtaper?  Had you stabilized from the large cuts before you started the microtaper? 

 

Thanks

 

Anne

 

Hey Anne,

 

I did stabilize somewhat.  I say somewhat because I was stable but not back to normal.  The symptoms were much less severe.  It took about 3 weeks after each cut, to tell myself i was ready to start again.  The most important thing I have learned through this whole process is coping with the minor symptoms through breathing exercises, physical exercise, motivational speakers, eft tapping, natural supplements, and prayer.  These coping methods have been the biggest success for me.  After my taper is over, I will always have these to get me through the inevitable stress of everyday life.  Problems will occur but you have to be able to deal with it without taking a pill.  This can be very challenging especially when life throws you curve balls.  So when you are use to taking a pill, you dont deal with life and eventually you forget how to.  So not only are you dealing with withdrawal but you have to learn how to deal with life again.  I believe this is what takes so long for a lot of people. 

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

[[sh...]]

Sharkey,

 

How did you do on your large cuts in February and March? I'm still on 1.25, have to wait until next week to do a cut. Not sure when to start the liquid taper.

 

The large cuts were terrible.  I had very bad physical symptoms including eye irritation, tingling down my arms and legs, very sore muscles, insomnia, very bad anxiety, etc.  Some days I felt like i was in a tunnel, that is the only way I can describe it.  I would highly discourage anyone from trying this if they are a long time user.

 

Amen, to that ,Sharky! The big dry cuts were horrible for me, too. I'm so glad I discovered Microtaper. I will recommend this to all people now. I think it has to do with what SCG posted here earlier. The more optimal curve our receptors can regenerate and how that is more possible when we do the little tiny daily cuts. verses the big  chunk cut and holds.

Shannon

 

[[sh...]]

Thanks Sharkey

 

I assumed it wasn't a good time. I'm still struggling with head pressure and migraines. All my other symptoms are gone. I thought I'd try cutting 1/8 mg. a couple times and see how my body reacts, then start the liquid taper.

 

Thanks for the onfo.

 

I have confidence you can do that but why not just taper the 1/8mg over 14 days?  it serves the same end result and would probably be easier.  Just a thought.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[Mo...]]

Dropped my 2 pm dose and now down to two doses.

2 of 0.5 mgr.

So reached 1 !!!

The morning dose is now all liquid.

It sure feels weird and I'm not feeling great. But I'll get used to it again, I'm sure.

 

Just checking in and wishing everyone a good weekend.

Hope you're doing alright Sharkey

[[sh...]]

Dropped my 2 pm dose and now down to two doses.

2 of 0.5 mgr.

So reached 1 !!!

The morning dose is now all liquid.

It sure feels weird and I'm not feeling great. But I'll get used to it again, I'm sure.

 

Just checking in and wishing everyone a good weekend.

Hope you're doing alright Sharkey

 

Thats great Moodle!  Congratz, big mile stone.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[ga...]]

 

Thanks, builder. I will show your directions to my son, who will not mess up the math.

 

I actually do have advantages from using a liquid up until now. Up to this point, cutting by .02, the reductions have been very easy and precise. Much easier than trying to cut pills.  Plus, I have Celiac and have found that many binders, fillings, and coatings in pills contain gluten or the pill itself has been exposed to gluten on the manufacturing line. I went to the liquid to avoid that. So, that's actually why I am stuck trying to figure out how to dilute and do micro tapering from an intensol rather than from a pill. The intensols seem to be unstable compared to pills, so I worry about the diluting and storage of them and the manufacturer won't help. All they care about is covering their *ss.

 

Liquid Benzos, including the Intensols, are NOT "unstable".  They are true solutions, not suspensions, and have a long shelf-life.  The discussion about diluting and saving has already been on BB.  All liquid benzos are made by dissolving dry med in a solvent, either alcohol or glycol, then diluting that solution with water, and storing it in a sealed container.  They are doing exactly what the PIL says you can't do.  Many BBs are preparing 3 to 5 day batches of diluted liquid benzos, both conventional "oral solutions" and "Intensols", with no negative consequences.

 

  OK, so the manufacturer was basically just b-s-ing me when I talked to them. Shocking!

 

Yes, the intensols are concentrated and unflavored so they taste AWFUL. That's why they say to mix them into something. I used to mix my intensol with water and drink the water. But the directions say to consume the entire amount of the mixture immediately after mixing it. I called the manufacturer and all they would do is repeat what was in the pamphlet. So that doesn't really help me to know if the intensol is mixing evenly and whether or not I can store my day's doses. Also, intensol cannot be refrigerated. When I read about liquid titration from pills, people are refrigerating their preparations. 

 

No, the mfgr is not going to tell you anything that contradicts what they have published in writing, even if what they have published is illlogical.  And again, Rx liquid are true solutions, not suspensions, and are physically and pharmacologially stable.  And since they are true solutions, the active med is evenly distributed, and will be evenly distributed even when diluted.  If the original form of the liquid med can be (should be!) stored at room temp, just adding water will not change that.  Adding water will not make it perishable.  If the original med should be stored at room temp, then the diluted batch should be stored at room temp.  I used Rx liquid V for 2 years, mixed batches to last 10-14 days, and always kept it at room temp.

 

This is what I wanted to hear! Not something about dissolving pills in milk and refrigerating it. Can I ask what you used to dilute? Also, do you know if your V liquid in the same base as the X liquid (something-glycol, water and a salt)? And what is that salt for anyway? Can't be to make it taste better.  Thank you!

 

That's out for me. I wish I could find someone who has done this and explained it all step by step the way it is posted with the directions for making, measuring, and storing liquids from pills. And I wish I could have my functioning brain back! 

[[ga...]]

Yes! Yes! Yes! Luckily, for you, Builder is spot on.

 

You have an intensol solution already, so you can dilute it in water to make it even easier to cut smaller doses.

So, right now you have the solution that is 1ml=1mg. What you would want to do is take 1ml of your medicine, and put it in 9ml of water. That means you will then have a 10ml solution that equals 1mg.

So now that every 10ml of solution = 1mg.  You can measure out even smaller doses with your syringe to do daily small cuts or daily micro tapers.

 

What is the amount of each dose you are taking on the 6 times a day. Once you tell us that, we can figure out how many ml of your new diluted solution that equals. You can switch over to taking your ne diluted solution daily just to make sure you adjust to it, and then you can start tapering down again.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Sleep well and talk to you soon

shannon

 

Things are making more sense as the day goes on and my brain clears.    I was desperate for sleep yesterday (practically non-functioning) and took 50mg Seroquel last night. That always puts me in a cog-fog until midday. I try to fight it and get stuff done, but that just makes me worse.

 

I dose at 3AM-7AM-11AM-3PM-7PM-11PM. Right now I am stuck at 5 doses of .18mg and 1 dose (bedtime) of .20mg. I was happily cutting .02mg every day at first and then every other day. Then I got slammed and I'm afraid to try another cut. I would like to get the bedtime dose equal with the rest of the doses by micro-tapering it down. But, this game I am playing with the insomnia vs the Seroquel makes me worried I am going to mess it up.

[[ga...]]

Dropped my 2 pm dose and now down to two doses.

2 of 0.5 mgr.

So reached 1 !!!

The morning dose is now all liquid.

It sure feels weird and I'm not feeling great. But I'll get used to it again, I'm sure.

 

Just checking in and wishing everyone a good weekend.

Hope you're doing alright Sharkey

 

Congratulations, Moodle!

[[bu...]]

gardener-

 

"This is what I wanted to hear! Not something about dissolving pills in milk and refrigerating it. Can I ask what you used to dilute? Also, do you know if your V liquid in the same base as the X liquid (something-glycol, water and a salt)? And what is that salt for anyway? Can't be to make it taste better.  Thank you!" 

 

I diluted with plain ol' tap water.  And yes, my liquid V (Roxane Diazepam Oral Solution 5mg=5ml)  is a glycol-solvent based product.  I typically made 10-14 day batches, and stored at room temp.  Then I simply drew my "taper dose" each day and included it in the total dose.

[[Mo...]]

Dropped my 2 pm dose and now down to two doses.

2 of 0.5 mgr.

So reached 1 !!!

The morning dose is now all liquid.

It sure feels weird and I'm not feeling great. But I'll get used to it again, I'm sure.

 

Just checking in and wishing everyone a good weekend.

Hope you're doing alright Sharkey

 

Congratulations, Moodle!

 

Thank you!!!!

[[ga...]]

gardener-

 

"This is what I wanted to hear! Not something about dissolving pills in milk and refrigerating it. Can I ask what you used to dilute? Also, do you know if your V liquid in the same base as the X liquid (something-glycol, water and a salt)? And what is that salt for anyway? Can't be to make it taste better.  Thank you!" 

 

I diluted with plain ol' tap water.  And yes, my liquid V (Roxane Diazepam Oral Solution 5mg=5ml)  is a glycol-solvent based product.  I typically made 10-14 day batches, and stored at room temp.  Then I simply drew my "taper dose" each day and included it in the total dose.

 

Thanks so much. My intensol is also by Roxane.

 

My total current dose is 1.10. I want to make my reductions off my bedtime dose first so it is equal with my other doses. For some reason I can't figure out how to do that. Dilute 9:1 and then what? Sorry that I'm being so obtuse. My brain worked much better pre-Xanax and this math would have been breeze. I get upset when I try and try and the connections just aren't there any more. I wonder if I will ever get my brain back.