Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[St...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

[[We...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

 

Hi Stephen,

 

You are not alone. there are many people who actually do find a different reaction between the pills and liquid meds. We only have theories as to why this is happening, nobody quite knows for sure, but rest assured you are not alone. I've noticed the general rule, is that when people switch from the pills to liquid, to give their systems time to adjust to the liquid. and then once they have adjusted, they begin to taper again. I hope that helps.

 

Shannon

[[ga...]]

Thanks, builder and WeCan,

 

I was slammed so long with my last very small cut I am in too-paralyzed-with-fear-to-move zone.

 

However, I also changed my sleep med (which may have caused the anxiety on top of failing as a sleep med) and had some big stressors (accidental "exposure therapy") during that week, so I suppose it all added together to equal hell week.

 

I am having long windows today and I think I may now be brave enough for a teeny tiny cut as a sort of test.

 

At any rate, my psychiatrist said not to cut more until I see him on Monday. Thinking about that.

 

BTW, anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

[[bu...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

  There is absolutely no documented pharmacological or medical reason why liquid V is metabolized any differently  than a tablet.  Its the same drug, and 1mg=1m.

 

But your expectations can absolutely influence your perceptions.

[[bu...]]

I agree with Builder, Gardener.

 

After researching so much of this and trying to find a good way to microtaper, I believe your solution is now further soluble in water. Maybe the dry drug itself wouldn't be, but even the fact that water is in the ingredient list with the other solvents, shows that it is.

 

If I were you, I would make a larger solution with your prescribed dose, so you can make even more minute cuts. It'll probably make the taper a lot more smooth.

 

Good luck.

 

Shannon/Wecan

  For clarification, glycol is a widely used solvent.  The xanax if dissolved in the glycol, which creates a true  solution, which can be further diluted with h20.

 

Its really the same concept as creating a vodka solution (alcohol is the solvent) and diluting that with water.

[[St...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

  There is absolutely no documented pharmacological or medical reason why liquid V is metabolized any differently  than a tablet.  Its the same drug, and 1mg=1m.

 

But your expectations can absolutely influence your perceptions.

 

I know what I felt, though, and that worries me. Should I stick with it in spite of how it felt?

[[We...]]

Thanks, builder and WeCan,

 

I was slammed so long with my last very small cut I am in too-paralyzed-with-fear-to-move zone.

 

However, I also changed my sleep med (which may have caused the anxiety on top of failing as a sleep med) and had some big stressors (accidental "exposure therapy") during that week, so I suppose it all added together to equal hell week.

 

I am having long windows today and I think I may now be brave enough for a teeny tiny cut as a sort of test.

 

At any rate, my psychiatrist said not to cut more until I see him on Monday. Thinking about that.

 

BTW, anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

 

No idea what the sale is used for, Garnder. But yeah, changing a sleep med could have caused you major symptoms, seeing as how sleep meds tend to act very similarly to benzos. You could have had a paradoxal reaction. I know when I was trying different things to help me sleep better, different supplments etc, most of them ended up making me feel worse. I think during tapers, our nervous systems get really sensitive, so many things that are supposed to help us, can make us feel worse like a paradoxal reaction.

 

Good luck,

Shannon

[[We...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

  There is absolutely no documented pharmacological or medical reason why liquid V is metabolized any differently  than a tablet.  Its the same drug, and 1mg=1m.

 

But your expectations can absolutely influence your perceptions.

 

I know what I felt, though, and that worries me. Should I stick with it in spite of how it felt?

 

 

Stephen,

 

being a sensitive person myself, I've had family members, doctors etc for years and years telling me that I "shouldn't" be having such and such reaction to foods, to meds, to man-made emf's. Etc.

 

They used to think it was all in my head and I was a hypochondriac, until low and behold, science started proving me right. There are millions of people all over the world who are extremely sensitive to all of these things for very real reasons.

 

Having said that, I 100% believe you had a different reaction to the liquid, than the pills. I'm sure if we actually studied it heavily we could figure out why. However, if I were you, I would just stick with it. I would adjust to the liquid, and then wait to taper again until your system adjust because it will be sooooooooooooo much easier for you to taper off liquid.

 

Benzo systems (plus any predisposition to sensitivity before benzos) are notoriously sensitive. So give yourself time to adjust to the new formula.

 

Shannon

[[...]]

I agree with Builder, Gardener.

 

After researching so much of this and trying to find a good way to microtaper, I believe your solution is now further soluble in water. Maybe the dry drug itself wouldn't be, but even the fact that water is in the ingredient list with the other solvents, shows that it is.

 

If I were you, I would make a larger solution with your prescribed dose, so you can make even more minute cuts. It'll probably make the taper a lot more smooth.

 

Good luck.

 

Shannon/Wecan

  For clarification, glycol is a widely used solvent.  The xanax if dissolved in the glycol, which creates a true  solution, which can be further diluted with h20.

 

Its really the same concept as creating a vodka solution (alcohol is the solvent) and diluting that with water.

 

[[...]]

I have also seen discussion about a rule of thumb for what percent to taper and that it's necessary to reduce the taper amount towards the end because the percentage becomes bigger.  I am not sure about this.  Intuitively it makes some sense, but I also wonder if there is just a mg/day rate that the body can adjust to regardless of the ultimate percent.  I say this because I have read where people have continued their taper at the same rate all the way to the end while others got into trouble and had to hold and reduce the taper rate towards the end.  Perhaps each of us is different and rather than there being a rule of thumb, each person really needs to find out for themselves how their body will react.

 

Just some thoughts that I have had but not really expressed.  I would be interested if others have some ideas on these topics.

 

I think a big hint lies in the fact that receptor occupancy is not linearly related to dose.  In fact it is kind of a dramatically bent curve that rises very quickly at first with the low doses, then bends and flattens as dose get higher -that is if benzo occupancy is anything like antidepressant occupancy, which I'll bet it is.  Take a look at these curves posted on SA...

 

http://ils.unc.edu/bmh/neoref/this.dir.unneeded/schizophrenia/review/tmp/352.pdf

 

When a cut is made at high dose it uncovers X amount of receptors.  To uncover that same amount of receptors at low dose a much smaller cut must be made.  I think the taper curve that straightens things out so that all cuts expose the same comfortable amount of receptors (i.e., doesn't cause symptom increase) is the one to follow.  And that curve is a slope that is steeper at high doses and gets less and less steep as the dose goes down, just like the ones we see here from people who do successful daily tapers.  I don't think it is a coincidence.

[[ga...]]

 

 

I think during tapers, our nervous systems get really sensitive, so many things that are supposed to help us, can make us feel worse like a paradoxal reaction.

 

 

 

 

That's for sure!

[[ga...]]

I have also seen discussion about a rule of thumb for what percent to taper and that it's necessary to reduce the taper amount towards the end because the percentage becomes bigger.  I am not sure about this.  Intuitively it makes some sense, but I also wonder if there is just a mg/day rate that the body can adjust to regardless of the ultimate percent.  I say this because I have read where people have continued their taper at the same rate all the way to the end while others got into trouble and had to hold and reduce the taper rate towards the end.  Perhaps each of us is different and rather than there being a rule of thumb, each person really needs to find out for themselves how their body will react.

 

Just some thoughts that I have had but not really expressed.  I would be interested if others have some ideas on these topics.

 

I think a big hint lies in the fact that receptor occupancy is not linearly related to dose.  In fact it is kind of a dramatically bent curve that rises very quickly at first with the low doses, then bends and flattens as dose get higher -that is if benzo occupancy is anything like antidepressant occupancy, which I'll bet it is.  Take a look at these curves posted on SA...

 

http://ils.unc.edu/bmh/neoref/this.dir.unneeded/schizophrenia/review/tmp/352.pdf

 

When a cut is made at high dose it uncovers X amount of receptors.  To uncover that same amount of receptors at low dose a much smaller cut must be made.  I think the taper curve that straightens things out so that all cuts expose the same comfortable amount of receptors (i.e., doesn't cause symptom increase) is the one to follow.  And that curve is a slope that is steeper at high doses and gets less and less steep as the dose goes down.

 

I truly, truly wish my brain worked well enough to understand this. 

[[bu...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

  There is absolutely no documented pharmacological or medical reason why liquid V is metabolized any differently  than a tablet.  Its the same drug, and 1mg=1m.

 

But your expectations can absolutely influence your perceptions.

 

I know what I felt, though, and that worries me. Should I stick with it in spite of how it felt?

 

 

Stephen-I don't question that you  felt it, what I question is what caused it.  Psychosomatic sxs are very real.  They are not imagined.

 

For example, it is well established that the  placebo group  in drug trials often experience the same therapeutic  effects and side effects as the group taking the actual med.

[[sh...]]

Welcome gardener99, StephenDedanus, & SG57 to the group!

 

SG57 so glad to see you here!

 

My crazy busy work week is almost over.  You should be seeing more of me soon.  I am down to 15ml (.0375mg Clonazepam) today, so 15 days until benzo free!

 

WeCan, Moodle, builder ya'll rock!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[ga...]]

Hi Sharkey. I am wanting to do micro tapering, but my sleep is so awful and my brain is so befuddled I can't figure out how to do it. 

 

I'm at 1.1ml alprazolam intensol and have been holding while I get over my last cut of .02 ml. It was awful.

 

How much should I be trying to cut per day? And how would I do it?

 

Anyone else with a brain working better than mine, please chime in!

 

Thanks.

[[St...]]

 

 

I think during tapers, our nervous systems get really sensitive, so many things that are supposed to help us, can make us feel worse like a paradoxal reaction.

 

 

 

 

That's for sure!

 

I actually felt high, though. Which has never happened. Now I feel normal. I'm just scared about accidentally updosing somehow.

[[Ul...]]

 

 

I'm kind of bummed tonight because my wife went to see her cancer doc. They like each other a lot, but the doc could tell that my wife was concerned about what I'm doing (LT). She sees me not sleeping and struggling with anxiety, but it's SO much less than the dry-cutting thing. The doc told my wife that I need to see a psychiatrist, get on a med or meds, and to stay ON the Klonopin. It confused my wife. I've seen a dozen psychiatrist over the two+ decades!! They're the ones that ruined my life for so long. Obviously, I disagree with her doc, but it's still a hassle. I have SO far to go to get off the benzo (currently at 2.57mg/day) and my wife isn't convinced that's it's the right thing to do or that I'll be able to handle the challenge for that long. I can't say I blame her. I've been more than a handful for a ton of years due to the fact that I was on boat loads of psychotropic drugs, lots of psychiatrists, couldn't hold jobs, electroconvulsive therapy (just doing what I was told to do), counselors, etc. Bless her heart. I hope I can help give some of HER life back. She fought through breast cancer and deserves the best!!

 

Everyone have a ramblin' night!!

 

No one should stay on any benzo.  Benzos are appropriate for short-term symptomatic therapy.  The drug manufacturers clearly state benzos should only be used for 2 to 4 weeks.  The major  reasons for that are 1) tolerance and 2) dependence.  All benzos will lose their efficacy over time, and  no longer reliever the original disorder.  That's tolerance.  And I think we all know what dependence is.

 

That being said, there are folks with underlying disorders that may require long term, even life-long treatment, some times with psychoactive meds...but not benzos!

 

 

 

Ultra,

 

I couldn't agree more with builder, here. I personally believe benzos should NEVER be prescribed unless someone is having a seizure or having a psychotic breakdown. and should only ever be given for maximum 2 days.

 

There are plenty of antipsychotic drugs, anti anxiety, anti epilieptic, that can treat what the benzo are prescribed for, if the person truly needs them.

 

Benzos are hell in a bottle. They are one of the reasons there is an epidemic of chronic health issues these days. Benzo use is at all time high, and people are paying for it long term.

 

I wish I would have known then, what I know now. Stay strong, Ultra and keep on track. Have you wife read more about benzos or even come on here if she wants to know more about how they are making you more ill, and not better.

 

if you take it slow, eventually she will see the healing and know you have made the right choice.

 

hugs,

Shannon

 

Thanks, Shannon and Builder. You both are super people.

 

Builder, I do have one question about something in your post: What "underlying disorders that require long term treatment" are you referring to, for example? I ask because I've attended some conferences during the past year or so that had lots of psychiatrists and various other specialty docs, and they showed hundreds of studies that support the damage that psychotropic drugs do and how they're not valuable to patients in the long run. I'm talking about things such as SSRI's, tricyclics, mood stabilizers, anti psychotics that Shannon mentioned, etc. None of the dozens of psychiatrists on the panels even use drugs for ANY of their patients. They said that the long-term disadvantages and effects greatly outweighed the short-term "benefits". Too much damage to other body systems in addition to the brain. I was just wondering what disorders you may be talking about or what meds.  Thanks for the input!

[[Ul...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

  There is absolutely no documented pharmacological or medical reason why liquid V is metabolized any differently  than a tablet.  Its the same drug, and 1mg=1m.

 

But your expectations can absolutely influence your perceptions.

 

I know what I felt, though, and that worries me. Should I stick with it in spite of how it felt?

 

 

Stephen-I don't question that you  felt it, what I question is what caused it.  Psychosomatic sxs are very real.  They are not imagined.

 

For example, it is well established that the  placebo group  in drug trials often experience the same therapeutic  effects and side effects as the group taking the actual med.

 

  The power of the mind and the power of suggestion. Very real. We are what we think...

[[We...]]

Welcome gardener99, StephenDedanus, & SG57 to the group!

 

SG57 so glad to see you here!

 

My crazy busy work week is almost over.  You should be seeing more of me soon.  I am down to 15ml (.0375mg Clonazepam) today, so 15 days until benzo free!

 

WeCan, Moodle, builder ya'll rock!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

That is SO AWESOME, Sharky! I am super excited for you. what a ride!

[[bu...]]

 

Thanks, Shannon and Builder. You both are super people.

 

Builder, I do have one question about something in your post: What "underlying disorders that require long term treatment" are you referring to, for example? I ask because I've attended some conferences during the past year or so that had lots of psychiatrists and various other specialty docs, and they showed hundreds of studies that support the damage that psychotropic drugs do and how they're not valuable to patients in the long run. I'm talking about things such as SSRI's, tricyclics, mood stabilizers, anti psychotics that Shannon mentioned, etc. None of the dozens of psychiatrists on the panels even use drugs for ANY of their patients. They said that the long-term disadvantages and effects greatly outweighed the short-term "benefits". Too much damage to other body systems in addition to the brain. I was just wondering what disorders you may be talking about or what meds.  Thanks for the input!

 

 

Let me be clear that personally do not subscribe to the "psych meds are evil" philosophy. 

 

Some folks have structural mental/emotional disorders that respond well to psychoactive meds.  Some folks hear voices, see things that aren't real...meds can help them see reality.  Some folks have neurochemical disorders than can be relieved/corrected with meds.  Some folks simply become overwhelmed with the challenges of life...a brief course of mild tranquilizers can make their life tolerable until they can get a grasp on their circumstances.  I could go on...

 

When I was struck with a severe, sudden onset of disabling anxiety, unable to manage my business or my personal life, was considering suicide, I thougt that first dose Valium was a gift from heaven.  And after series of try-and-fail efforts on the med maery-go-round, and finilly finding Remeron, I began the path back to full functionality.

 

When I was suffering indescribable pain from a kidney stone too large to pass (and requiring surgery, oxycontin, vicodin dilaudid, and morphine were my closest friends.

 

If ever confronted with a debilitating anxiety problem again, I would grab a benzo ASAP.  (I saved a pretty good stash, just in case).  And if I ever experience bad pain, pass the opiates! Thank god for powerful painkillers.  And If I am ever confronted with deep depression,  I'll  reach for my Remeron (I saved some of that, too!)

 

Psych meds are valuable weapons in the medical arsenal.  It would be incredibly naive to think they don't provide relief to millions,  help troubled people return to meaningful live, even save lives.

 

Sure, there are risks, and there are side fxs.  Hell, there are risks and side fxs to aspirin, and virtually every pharma-med out there.  Me, I.m med-free again, but I remain grateful they are there if I need them.

 

 

 

 

[[We...]]

 

 

I think during tapers, our nervous systems get really sensitive, so many things that are supposed to help us, can make us feel worse like a paradoxal reaction.

 

 

 

 

That's for sure!

 

I actually felt high, though. Which has never happened. Now I feel normal. I'm just scared about accidentally updosing somehow.

 

I wouldn't worry about updosing. The pharmacists are pretty accurate with their compounding. Just make sure you are taking the prescribed amount of liquid, and you will be fine. Perhaps you felt high because you absorbed it more rapidly than you do the pills. I know that I absorb pills and liquids differently.

 

I would give it a week and I bet your system will be use to liquid and you won't notice the 'high' feeling anymore. Of course, I could be wrong, but many people have to adjust to liquids. Give it some time and don't make any more cuts until you adjust to the liquid.

 

hang in there

 

Shannon

[[We...]]

 

Thanks, Shannon and Builder. You both are super people.

 

Builder, I do have one question about something in your post: What "underlying disorders that require long term treatment" are you referring to, for example? I ask because I've attended some conferences during the past year or so that had lots of psychiatrists and various other specialty docs, and they showed hundreds of studies that support the damage that psychotropic drugs do and how they're not valuable to patients in the long run. I'm talking about things such as SSRI's, tricyclics, mood stabilizers, anti psychotics that Shannon mentioned, etc. None of the dozens of psychiatrists on the panels even use drugs for ANY of their patients. They said that the long-term disadvantages and effects greatly outweighed the short-term "benefits". Too much damage to other body systems in addition to the brain. I was just wondering what disorders you may be talking about or what meds.  Thanks for the input!

 

 

Let me be clear that personally do not subscribe to the "psych meds are evil" philosophy. 

 

Some folks have structural mental/emotional disorders that respond well to psychoactive meds.  Some folks hear voices, see things that aren't real...meds can help them see reality.  Some folks have neurochemical disorders than can be relieved/corrected with meds.  Some folks simply become overwhelmed with the challenges of life...a brief course of mild tranquilizers can make their life tolerable until they can get a grasp on their circumstances.  I could go on...

 

When I was struck with a severe, sudden onset of disabling anxiety, unable to manage my business or my personal life, was considering suicide, I thougt that first dose Valium was a gift from heaven.  And after series of try-and-fail efforts on the med maery-go-round, and finilly finding Remeron, I began the path back to full functionality.

 

When I was suffering indescribable pain from a kidney stone too large to pass (and requiring surgery, oxycontin, vicodin dilaudid, and morphine were my closest friends.

 

If ever confronted with a debilitating anxiety problem again, I would grab a benzo ASAP.  (I saved a pretty good stash, just in case).  And if I ever experience bad pain, pass the opiates! Thank god for powerful painkillers.  And If I am ever confronted with deep depression,  I'll  reach for my Remeron (I saved some of that, too!)

 

Psych meds are valuable weapons in the medical arsenal.  It would be incredibly naive to think they don't provide relief to millions,  help troubled people return to meaningful live, even save lives.

 

Sure, there are risks, and there are side fxs.  Hell, there are risks and side fxs to aspirin, and virtually every pharma-med out there.  Me, I.m med-free again, but I remain grateful they are there if I need them.

 

I agree, Builder. I'm all about balance. I am into lots of natural stuff (nutrition, supplements etc) but I also believe allopathic medicine has it's place. I would have died if I hadn't been put on psych meds. I was very suicidal as a teen and in my early twenties. I think psych meds do have side fx and I would prefer if people could use amino acids and other nutritional therapies, but sometimes that is not possible, and thank heavens we have psych meds to save lives.

[[We...]]

Hi Sharkey. I am wanting to do micro tapering, but my sleep is so awful and my brain is so befuddled I can't figure out how to do it. 

 

I'm at 1.1ml alprazolam intensol and have been holding while I get over my last cut of .02 ml. It was awful.

 

How much should I be trying to cut per day? And how would I do it?

 

Anyone else with a brain working better than mine, please chime in!

 

Thanks.

 

Garnder,

 

You are using liquid X now right? may I ask your conversion rate. does 2ml of the liquid equal 1mg of the x? etc.

 

and why are you dosing 6 times per day? does this medication have a shorter half life in the system? I know I am using Ativan and dosing 4 times a day. I wonder if you could dose 4 times to save you some hassle, and it may even be better for you. I don't know about your particular med, so that is why I'm asking.

 

Also, I know Sharky recommending doing daily cuts of 0.0025mg. You could only do that if you we figured out how much liquid you take and how to dilute it to make a good solution for you.

 

If you provide some of the info, I could help you out.

 

Shannon

[[bu...]]

Quick question. I was directed here by someone so I hope this is the right place. I took my first dose of liquid valium this morning and it made me feel a little high. I've never felt that before with benzos. It's freaking me out. Is there a difference with the activation time and the liquid?

  There is absolutely no documented pharmacological or medical reason why liquid V is metabolized any differently  than a tablet.  Its the same drug, and 1mg=1m.

 

But your expectations can absolutely influence your perceptions.

 

I know what I felt, though, and that worries me. Should I stick with it in spite of how it felt?

 

 

Stephen-I don't question that you  felt it, what I question is what caused it.  Psychosomatic sxs are very real.  They are not imagined.

 

For example, it is well established that the  placebo group  in drug trials often experience the same therapeutic  effects and side effects as the group taking the actual med.

 

  The power of the mind and the power of suggestion. Very real. We are what we think...

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[[ga...]]

Hi Sharkey. I am wanting to do micro tapering, but my sleep is so awful and my brain is so befuddled I can't figure out how to do it. 

 

I'm at 1.1ml alprazolam intensol and have been holding while I get over my last cut of .02 ml. It was awful.

 

How much should I be trying to cut per day? And how would I do it?

 

Anyone else with a brain working better than mine, please chime in!

 

Thanks.

 

Garnder,

 

You are using liquid X now right? may I ask your conversion rate. does 2ml of the liquid equal 1mg of the x? etc.

 

and why are you dosing 6 times per day? does this medication have a shorter half life in the system? I know I am using Ativan and dosing 4 times a day. I wonder if you could dose 4 times to save you some hassle, and it may even be better for you. I don't know about your particular med, so that is why I'm asking.

 

Also, I know Sharky recommending doing daily cuts of 0.0025mg. You could only do that if you we figured out how much liquid you take and how to dilute it to make a good solution for you.

 

If you provide some of the info, I could help you out.

 

Shannon

 

Hi WeCan. It's 1ml=1mg, so that part is simple. I have a 1 ml oral syringe. The smallest marking on my oral syringe is .02ml. So that's .02mg. Each .02ml seems to equal one drop, so there's no way to measure less than that with this liquid.

 

Xanax is every short acting and very hard to get off of. They say the half life averages about 11 hours but I read that for some it is 2-3 hours. I believe that!

 

I am at 1.1mg/day. I have heard 10% cut per month and also 10% cut per 2 weeks. I'm not sure which to choose.

 

If I cut 10%/month, how much is that per day and how would I mix that up? All questions that are over my head! 

 

Well, I just broke down and took a dose of Seroquel and am hoping it helps me sleep tonight. I'll pay for it with cog fog most of tomorrow, but I desperately need some real sleep. So, good night, all!