withdrawing from klonopin, norco, AND Z Drugs...(sorry, I didn't know...)

[[Pa...]]

Don't you listen to those little voices that lie to you!  You just don't know what's going to happen until you're done with the Klonopin.  So many of us have found out some wonderful things when we got off of the drug, try to have hope.

 

Hey, I was like you, I thought I could get the drug out of me by exercising and sweating it out.  Thing is, the exercise is good, but the healing is taking place in your brain, so don't hurt yourself okay?

 

Can't help you with the opiate, I'm just glad you didn't suggest an Ambien, then I'd have to get tough with you! 

[[so...]]

Leena  I take oxycodone , but not for pain,  i use it to reduce the symptoms of Restless leg syndrome.  there is no cure for RLS , so all I can do is treat the symptoms and 2.5 to 5 mgs does it.  At this low dose , the chance of addiction is almost non existant, but ,most likely , unless they come up with a cure, I will be dependant on one drug or another to get my sleep allowance.... If you have to take the opiate for pain relief , I am sure it will take a much larger dose.  addiction comes from abuse as I see it.    IMO  If you can't sleep at all and everyone desperately needs sleep.  using the opiate on a intermitten basis would probably help your body heal.  Not promoting adding a drug to your system that has potential for addiction either starting it or continuing it  if allready addicted, but you gotta do what you gotta do to survive ,and without sleep, your gonna  hit a wall and crash sooner or later.  Intermittent is the key word here. 

st

[[le...]]

Good morning, Softtail,

 

I did end up taking norco last night just because of what you had in your post to me this morning.  I felt that being in such constant pain to where I could not sleep had to be worse than taking the opiate on occasion.  I guess since it has been out of my system for a while, my body reacted by itching.  But it was a whole lot better than the pain of my muscles feeling like they are being tied up into knots!  I am not sure how much I slept, because I was aware of scratching so often.  I do remember that back when I took Darvocet, I would go through periods of itching.

 

I also agree wholeheartedly with your caution.  It is interesting that even as I have gotten up this morning, my muscles are sort of "twinging" but not hurting right now.  It is nice just to have some temporary relief.  I think the pain makes me tense up all over, which makes the pain worse.

 

I never had the restless leg until coming off the fentanyl (or that is what I have attributed it to).  Perhaps it was the klonopin tolerance withdrawals???  I don't know.  I wish I understood it all better.  (I have to continue this in a 2nd post)

 

 

[[le...]]

The neurontin seemed to be making me "sicker" , whereas at first I thought it was helping with withdrawals.  The opiate actually felt to be a little safer option than the neurontin...though again, I know I have to use caution and not take it every night.

 

~Leena

[[ad...]]

Glad you slept better Leena!  Yeahoo, that's great. 

 

On the walking, I used to think my few weeks off that I could just do a few things, like to keep moving, to get it out of my system FAST.  I used to scrub my skin in the shower and all that stuff.  Well, as the weeks wore on, it became obvious I was going to have to pace myself.  Now that's an understatement.  I understand that ANY kind of sweating can help with detox for stuff that has gotten into our fat, like benzos (or so the theory goes).  So that could be...taking a hot bath/shower, infrared or other sauna, exercise, or.....   

 

On fibromyalgia, I disagree with your theory that fibromyalgia is the "brain magnifying pain."  Well, except for the fact that most pain comes from the brain....that's where the pain stimulus gets processed.  But in the case of fibromyalgia, I'm one of those that believes (strongly) that fibro is a hormonal issue (especially adrenals and thyroid).  And can be easily corrected through hormones and nutrients/diet.  I've experienced this myself.  Fibro is one of the easiest things to fix, IMO.  Even if I'm wrong, you have some options there of things to try....  I know for me, I always feel better when I know there are options. 

 

On neurontin....both benzos and neurontin (Gabapentin) work on GABA (the neurotransmitter).  That means that taking both could have a compounded effect, and if decreasing one or the other or both, you could also get a compounded effect of w/d's -- in ways that probably no one could know.  And then if you change one, or the other, or both randomly....there's really no way to know which effects are coming from which drug.  Know what I mean?.      And then throw in Cymbalta....whew...I don't want to even go there tonight. 

 

But I know you'll get it all figured out Leena....you're doing great!  Just one step at a time...right?  Things may feel a little crazy right now, but you really are getting down that road.  Truly. 

[[ad...]]

You also said something about "itching" leena?  I wonder if that's just the typical histamine-type response that opioids give.  It used to be random with me.  Sometimes I'd get it, and sometimes not.  You can itch anywhere on your body.  I've known people that used to think they were allergic to it.  And I thought I was for awhile too.  Until my pharmacist reminded me....then all I could see was Ray Charles (in the movie) itching himself all over at the piano as he got more addicted to heroin.  Ugggghhhh!

 

adelia

[[so...]]

leena , glad you got some relief.  I just got back from the doctor ,  and we discussed the opiate use .  I told him I take no more than 5 mg. per night for the rls symptoms,and he said that was indeed a low dose,  but I could still find over time the effects wearing off and requiring more to relieve the symptoms.  I indicated to him, I am not sure how much the opiate is really helping anyway, and that for the most part during the day untill late in evening I have no symptoms, which is dramatically different than the last 4 years.  I may just try to dump that alltogeather also once my body reboots itself in to normal sleeping patterns.  Drugs suck,  but they can be a life saver also.  I just know that benzo's are off my to do list for the rest of my life.

st.

[[le...]]

Adelia...can you tell me what happens when, after being on opiates...then stopping...then taking norco again...does?  (Sorry for the poor grammar).  I know you had warned me early on about how I couldn't just go back to taking one occasionally, and I wondered if you can explain that further. 

 

Also...I am curious about what you think the Cymbalta is doing while I am going through benzo withdrawal.  I know that, originally...when I started taking Cymbalta it made me feel the need for MORE klonopin because they Cymbalta seemed to make my muscles more tense.  Naturally, it seems something weird would be going on with the Cymbalta and klonopin while I am going OFF the klonopin. It seems my body would be wanting LESS Cymbalta and that it would show in my muscles.

 

This is just not simple, is it???? 

 

Thank you!

~Leena

[[Pa...]]

Gosh Leena, I don't have any knowledge of the drugs you're talking about with adelia and softtail, I'm glad they're here to give their input.  From what I can see from the cheap seats, it seems like the more drugs there are the more complications and interactions there are.  It concerns me when I see members look for solutions with more drugs.  I do understand that you've been battling your health issues for a long time and didn't get here overnight.  But, is there any way you could pare down some of what you're taking?  It just seems overwhelming to try and figure out what's helping and what's hurting you at this point.  I'm sorry.....this probably didn't come out right. 

[[le...]]

Hi Pam...the klonopin in my system has been there the longest (17 years).  The Cymbalta has been there for a long time (can't remember how long).  I was originally on Celexa for depression that started in 1994 when my son (then 9) was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes.  I discovered during the years following that it also seemed to help with my pain issues, so my doctor switched me to Cymbalta because it had been through clinical trials for pain management. 

 

I know I have quite a "hodge podge" of a background, but currently the only Rx drugs I am taking are the klonopin and the cymbalta, with norco coming back into the picture on occasion for the pain of withdrawals so that I can sleep. (And imitrex occasionally for migraines).  I am currently at .25 total mg of klonopin and close to cutting...have totally stopped the neurontin (3rd day off).  If I could just quit the cymbalta I would, but I know from experience I can't do that...that it needs to be tapered VERY slowly.

 

I have no idea what the "real" me is like...Me, not on medication.  I don't know if my pain issues will clear up once I am free and clear of klonopin withdrawals (that is my hope, of course!)  This is all a very unsure adventure, but one I am willing to be on.  I am just glad that I have all of you as adventure guides

 

~Leena

 

 

[[le...]]

Adelia, I had a couple of other questions.  You mentioned that you believe fibromyalgia to be mainly a hormonal issue.  I had that adrenal fatigue test, given to me by my internist.  He said I am "fine".  When I have the thyroid test given on my annual physical (just had it a couple of months ago), it has always come out "fine" too.  Is there something more I need to know?

 

Thanks again!

Leena

[[so...]]

Leena, I got a reply about opiates from one of the buddies that was on a similar amount that I am 5mg to 10 mg per night and  what they told me made alot of sense so I am passing this along. 

Opiates really have a short half life , around 5 to 6 hours.  so  to keep getting the same pain relief effect from them , you would need to take doses about every 4 to 6 hours.  At that rate, addiction is likely to occur over time, because the body gets use to being fed the drug regularly, and it never really gets out of your system.

The buddine who was  on  oxy, like I am , was on for about 5 years, and like me only took it at bedtime. 

By doing this, the drug is beneficial at night , but the body pretty much eliminates it during the day, so in a sense , you are starting over with it each night. 

so the combination of taking as small a dose as posible to relieve pain , or in my case , the rls symptoms, and only taking it at night,  pretty much keeps the potential for addiction at arms length.  The buddie, took the drug for 5 years, then quit with no problems whatsoever. 

Not promoting the Norco,  but if it helps to get you some rest,  especially while getting off the benzo,  it may be in your best interest to use it.

Only giving you some information , not telling you what to do.  Ultimately ,your the only one who can make the decision about what to do to get thru the day .  Hope whatever it is leads you to a normal , drug free  finish line in the end.

st

[[ad...]]

Adventure guides....hey, I like that!    Now that's putting a positive spin on things Leena.  Navigating the medical system is definitely an adventure, isn't it? 

 

The diagnosis of "fine" is often one of the most antiquated ever, IMO.  Nowadays, I always advocate to everyone I know to get your own lab numbers, compare them to the "range" of normal, and make sure your numbers are at least in the mid-range, if not in the highest range of normal (the upper third or quadrant).  THEN you'll be fine.  Until then, it's just a number.  And chances are one or more hormones can be functioning low, like thyroid or adrenal, even though the range looks "fine". 

 

I'm a huge proponent these days of "functional medicine".  Many MD's are going this way.  It's the best way, because it treats based on symptoms.  On how one feels and how one is functioning.  The lab numbers don't always tell the whole story, unfortunately. 

 

I'd like to know what that adrenal fatigue "test" was that your internist gave you.  The best indicator of adrenal fatigue is measuring "cortisol" -- the hormone produced by the adrenal cortex.  It should be high in the morning (body wakes up), then go down continously throughout the day and be at the lowest before bed (body goes to sleep).  A saliva test is the best way to measure it.  It takes 4-5 measurements throughout the day.  Versus a one-time fasting cortisol blood test used by many drs, unfortunately, which only gives the morning value. 

 

Unfortunate because there are "phases" of adrenal fatigue.  In early phases of fatigue, your cortisol can actually be HIGH in the evening (this means your adrenals are very stressed and working too hard to keep up with stress), which leads to sleeping problems.  If not corrected in this phase, and stresses continue, then it can plummet and almost flat-line.  This would be adrenal exhaustion, and it's harder to recover from.  But every phase can be recovered from.  Even adrenal exhaustion. 

 

If you can walk an hour and 20 minutes, you probably aren't there yet.  Isn't that good news?    But you could be into an earlier phases of fatigue....  Not "you" in particular, but anyone who is going through these kinds of stresses.  Anyway, these are just my late-night opinions of course. 

 

If you want to know more about "adrenal fatigue", there's a huge online world of info if you google that.  Lots of different theories and such, but I could point you to some good websites if you want.  There are some really easy things to help adrenal fatigue, that also just helps health in general.  Funny how that works.  The adrenals are in charge of "stress", with a capital S.  Nothing fancy....lots of protein, Vit C, B vitamins, salt, a scheduled day, regular meals, some rest, and eliminate stress.  You know, easy stuff!  Like...slow and steady. 

 

adelia

p.s.  have you had your Vit. B12 and Vit. D levels checked, by any chance? 

[[ad...]]

Leena, I got a reply about opiates from one of the buddies that was on a similar amount that I am 5mg to 10 mg per night and  what they told me made alot of sense so I am passing this along. 

Opiates really have a short half life , around 5 to 6 hours.  so  to keep getting the same pain relief effect from them , you would need to take doses about every 4 to 6 hours.  At that rate, addiction is likely to occur over time, because the body gets use to being fed the drug regularly, and it never really gets out of your system.

The buddine who was  on  oxy, like I am , was on for about 5 years, and like me only took it at bedtime. 

By doing this, the drug is beneficial at night , but the body pretty much eliminates it during the day, so in a sense , you are starting over with it each night. 

so the combination of taking as small a dose as posible to relieve pain , or in my case , the rls symptoms, and only taking it at night,  pretty much keeps the potential for addiction at arms length.  The buddie, took the drug for 5 years, then quit with no problems whatsoever. 

Not promoting the Norco,  but if it helps to get you some rest,  especially while getting off the benzo,  it may be in your best interest to use it.

Only giving you some information , not telling you what to do.  Ultimately ,your the only one who can make the decision about what to do to get thru the day .  Hope whatever it is leads you to a normal , drug free  finish line in the end.

st

 

Hi ST,

 

That's great, that you get some relief at night for your RLS.  BTW, Leena takes hydrocodone, not oxycodone like you do.  The half life of hydrocodone is only 3.8 hours -- not very long.  All the opioids are different.  Yours is longer acting. 

 

Also, the story changes when one has already been on opioids "full-time".  Then receptors can be eager to get back up to speed.  Wheeee, like a '65 red mustang going full throttle!

 

adelia

[[so...]]

thanks adelia,  I think hydrocodone is a mixture of the hydrocodone and acetaminophen.  I may be wrong, but I believe that oxycodone and methadone, are 2 of the opiates if not the only opiates, that are not mixed with any side products. 

Of the 2 (hydrocodone, or oxy/methodone)  the latter 2 are preferred  if using long term, because they do not contain the acetaminophen which can damage the liver or kidneys over time.

Again ,not that any opiate is your friend,  but if I have to use one I prefere the oxy for that reason. 

hopefully both leena and I can dump this stuff eventually also

st

 

[[le...]]

Adelia and Softtail,

 

You all are really such wonderful resources...THANK YOU for sharing your knowledge with me.  I appreciate both of your opinions on the opiates, as I think I may have to rely upon them to get me through the pain phase of whatever this is.  Isn't it odd that I can have the assurance that my pain doctor will prescribe an opiate for me...but that I have to be afraid to tell her too much about tapering off the benzo because she doesn't think I should be getting off??  This is one of the reasons I am so grateful for this website and for you all.  Besides helping me with this taper, you also are (in a way) an "accountability" group for me.  When I realized after that first night (3 nights ago) that the norco absolutely DID help me to be able rest at night, I have taken it the past 2 nights as well.  I have not been tempted to take it during the day because just my activity level helps me deal with the pain.  I appreciate the insight that your buddie gave you, Softtail, about how if you only take it at night, it hasn't had time to build up in your system.  Still, I am not going to take it unless I absolutely cannot sleep.

 

Adelia, I will post tomorrow (or should I say later today) about my latest lab results to get your opinion, and tell you more about the cortisol test.  It WAS the fasting blood test, not a saliva test.  I am not sure where I would go to get the saliva test...

SO many thanks to both of you for sharing your insights with me!

 

~Leena

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Pa...]]

Hi Pam...the klonopin in my system has been there the longest (17 years).  The Cymbalta has been there for a long time (can't remember how long).  I was originally on Celexa for depression that started in 1994 when my son (then 9) was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes.  I discovered during the years following that it also seemed to help with my pain issues, so my doctor switched me to Cymbalta because it had been through clinical trials for pain management. 

 

I know I have quite a "hodge podge" of a background, but currently the only Rx drugs I am taking are the klonopin and the cymbalta, with norco coming back into the picture on occasion for the pain of withdrawals so that I can sleep. (And imitrex occasionally for migraines).  I am currently at .25 total mg of klonopin and close to cutting...have totally stopped the neurontin (3rd day off).  If I could just quit the cymbalta I would, but I know from experience I can't do that...that it needs to be tapered VERY slowly.

 

I have no idea what the "real" me is like...Me, not on medication.  I don't know if my pain issues will clear up once I am free and clear of klonopin withdrawals (that is my hope, of course!)  This is all a very unsure adventure, but one I am willing to be on.  I am just glad that I have all of you as adventure guides

 

~Leena

 

 

 

Thanks for taking me through this, I understand a little more.  You're not throwing a kitchen sink of meds at this, they were on board all along and trying to get off of them while withdrawing from benzo's is never advised around here.  Benzo's are felt to be the worst of all of them in terms of withdrawal symptoms so you're doing the right thing.  Thanks for not getting defensive at my lack of knowledge in this area. 

[[le...]]

Hi Pam...I took no offense at all about your questions about my meds.  Honestly, I do not see how all of you who are moderators do what you do!  I did not want you to have to go all the way back through my thread to figure out my medicine history; hence, the brief synopsis.

 

Totally off subject, how DO you all do this?  I am sure it is all volunteer, but it must take up so much of your time!  I am amazed at how much you all know, and how wisely and carefully you dispense information.  I am very clueless about the "inner workings" of a forum like this!  But am SO thankful that you all are there!

 

~Leena

[[Pa...]]

Hi Pam...I took no offense at all about your questions about my meds.  Honestly, I do not see how all of you who are moderators do what you do!  I did not want you to have to go all the way back through my thread to figure out my medicine history; hence, the brief synopsis.

 

Totally off subject, how DO you all do this?  I am sure it is all volunteer, but it must take up so much of your time!  I am amazed at how much you all know, and how wisely and carefully you dispense information.  I am very clueless about the "inner workings" of a forum like this!  But am SO thankful that you all are there!

 

~Leena

 

Thanks Leena for acknowledging what we do here.  Yes, it is voluntary and it does fill our days and nights.  We're just folks who found themselves here just like you did.  What we bring to the forum is our life experience and what we pick up here.  We're all either healed or in the process of healing.  Frankly I'll never understand how the folks currently healing can do this job.  I wasn't able to, I didn't become active until I had healed.  So, my hats off to the folks like adelia and softtail who are able to help others through this while still healing.  The members are great, they offer help and hope to their Buddies on a daily basis.  All in all a very safe and nurturing environment.  Who knew the internet would for me be the only place I could go for help and support during the worst time of my life?

[[ad...]]

thanks adelia,  I think hydrocodone is a mixture of the hydrocodone and acetaminophen.  I may be wrong, but I believe that oxycodone and methadone, are 2 of the opiates if not the only opiates, that are not mixed with any side products.  

Of the 2 (hydrocodone, or oxy/methodone)  the latter 2 are preferred  if using long term, because they do not contain the acetaminophen which can damage the liver or kidneys over time.

Again ,not that any opiate is your friend,   but if I have to use one I prefere the oxy for that reason.  

hopefully both leena and I can dump this stuff eventually also

st

 

 

Hi ST,

 

Actually, hydrocodone is just hydrocodone...the opioid itself.  Vicidin (5 mg HC), Lortab (7.5 mg HC), and Norco (10 mg HC) are hydrocodone in varying concentrations, plus tylenol (acetomin.) in varying concentrations.  Hydrocodone is one of the shortest acting of all the opioids.  Oxycodone (oxycontin) which you take, is one of the longer acting opioids.  

 

Hydrocodone is NEVER recommend for long-term use.  Never.  It's one of the most highly addictive drugs (for biochemical reasons that I won't get into.)  However, drs. often let people take it long-term because......(you fill in the blank).  

 

There are lots of other opioids not mixed with anything else....like fentanyl, demerol, and levophranol.   But many of them do come mixed with something else (like codeine), in cough syrup, tylenol, or advil.  Mostly because they metabolize so fast.  There are  different "classes" of opioids, based on the way they act.  

 

Methadone is kind of a separate animal, because it's purely synthetic and was designed to take up the opioid receptor sites, so that if for example, a heroin addict took more heroin, it would have no where to go and wouldn't be felt.  Methadone is often given for pain...I took it for two years.  I've taken most of them....in various forms -- patch, pill, troche, you name it -- I"m sorry to say.  

 

adelia

[[le...]]

  Pam, thank you for filling me in a little more about Benzo Buddies.  And thanks to all you who moderate the forum and who volunteer to help keep us from sinking! I know that you have been where we are and that is why you are so astute at knowing how to help us!

 

About the opiate discussion...IF I found that I had to be on an opiate for a while...based upon what you are saying, Adelia and Softtail, I guess it would be better for me to switch to Oxycontin?  My dad (who is 79) is currently trying to wean himself off of methadone.  He has been taking a small amount for a long, long time for headaches.  I think when I started weaning off the fentanyl, he decided to see what it would be like for him to go off the methadone.  It has been pretty hard for him.

 

OK...Adelia.  Here are my latest lab numbers.  On that blood cortisol test, my cortisol baseline (at 8 am) was 6.6 mg/dl.  One hour after the shot of ACTH, my cortisol was 24.

I had this test in March about a week before my accident.

 

It looks like the only thyroid test that was done was was TSH, 3rd generation.  My number was 1.41.  Normal is .4 - 4.5.

 

Can you tell anything from those numbers?

 

Thank you!  Leena

[[Pa...]]

Hi Leena,

 

I'm afraid we're getting into some uncharted waters here with your question about opiates.  I feel as if we're straying from the primary purpose of BenzoBuddies.  We have another thread in the forum for discussion about Other Prescribed Medications http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=60.0 in which this type of discussion would be more appropriate.  This thread is used to discuss how our various other medications affect our benzo withdrawal. However, even there we cannot advise what you should do, this is something best worked out with your medical practitioner. 

 

Pam

[[le...]]

OOPS!  So sorry, Pam.  Thank you for setting me straight.  I will look over at the other thread and see if there is something that might answer some questions for me there.

 

Leena

[[Pa...]]

OOPS!  So sorry, Pam.  Thank you for setting me straight.  I will look over at the other thread and see if there is something that might answer some questions for me there.

 

Leena

 

No worries Leena, you've been getting some great support and I've seen lots of good come out of these discussions.  I just get a little nervous about opiates.  Many, many people have problems with them, thank goodness you're not one of them. 

 

As for your hormone levels, adelia is a great one to ask, in fact I've told her my levels and she's had some great input.  I plan to speak with my endocrinologist next month.  I like the idea of treating my symptoms not putting me into a range.

[[le...]]

I totally understand, Pam...I know that no one wants to lead anyone else astray here and that it is best to stay on topic about the things you know best.

 

About the hormone thing...is this something I should discuss with Adelia in a personal message, so as not to take everyone down a rabbit trail?  Do lots of people have trouble with thyroid when they are withdrawing from klonopin?  It is amazing how complex our bodies are and how all these things affect each other!

 

~Leena