withdrawing from klonopin, norco, AND Z Drugs...(sorry, I didn't know...)

[[ad...]]

Hi Leena,

 

So sorry to hear that you're not feeling as well!!!  How long did you take the muscle relaxer (Zanaflex)?  In my opinion, the word "addictive" can be misleading.  Our bodies can definitely get "dependent" on just about any kind of med/drug.  Especially muscle relaxers.  Benzos are also muscle relaxers".  So maybe you're feeling w/d's from the Zanaflex, maybe from benzos???  It's hard to say when several things get changed all at once.   

 

One option is to just taper off ONE DRUG AT A TIME.  Things can get complicated.  A headache and body aches can definitely be benzo symptoms.  "Flu-like" is one of the hallmarks, a very typical w/d symptom --  it was for me. 

 

Also, I think splitting up your Klon. doses could be contributing to your worse sleeping.  Again, just my opinion.  I took my full dose at night to sleep.  That's the only time the symptoms went away.  If you were in tolerance w/d's, you'd probably feel worse during the day -- probably sometime 18 hours after last dose. 

 

Why not go back to doing what you were doing to STABILIZE?  You had gotten quite stable and were feeling better.  Your drug/pain situation is fairly complicated Leena, so it's one possibility to keep that in mind, and just taper one drug at a time. 

 

Otherwise, if you pile w/d's upon w/d's on top of the pain, you'll get into a bad way, and get desperate and start increasing doses of whatever, just to get some relief.  Why test yourself to that limit?  Based on my "desperate" experiences last year, I realized that a little patience will get you further sometimes. 

 

You also just went back to work?  Wow, do you work full-time?  What an amazing woman! 

 

adelia

[[le...]]

:-[Hi Adelia,

 

I am so glad you came around.  I really am feeling quite a "mess", especially when I do think about the drugs I have been using to treat chronic pain all these years, and then the pain medication PLUS the pain from the accident. You asked me about going back to work...I am a self employed interior painter, and the accident I keep referring to occurred when a ladder I was standing on slid on some constructor's paper (I thought it was taped down...it wasn't) and I fell.  That was the end of March.  Before that fall, I had already been in treatment for pain for years (over 12, at least).  How much of that pain was tolerance withdrawal, I do not know.  For many of those years, my "cocktail" was klonopin, Soma (muscle relaxer), and Darvocet.  It was just about a year ago that my primary care doctor became concerned about the amount of Darvocet it was taking to help my pain...and he sent me the way of "pain management".  But that is all in my original post.  I did not mention the muscle relaxer, I guess, because it wasn't a benzo or an opiate. 

 

The first pain management people I went to told me that almost all "fibromyalgia" patients have spinal issues, and they had me get an MRI of my entire spine.  When the results came back, they immediately said, "Yep, just as we thought.  You need spinal injections".  I was skeptical, sought out another pain management specialist, and they basically said the same thing.  I did have 2 sets of sacral injections for my leg pain (which worked, but for only for a couple of months) and also facet point injections for neck and shoulder pain that started about a year and a half ago.  Those injections worked for about 2 months, also.  All of the injections took place in fall and winter of last year (08).  The pain management clinic that did the injections are also the people who managed my medications (except the klonopin, which was managed by my family doctor...but the pain people knew about it). They did away with the Soma right when I started coming to them, and started trying various muscle relaxers along with pain medication.  I finally settled on Zanaflex, but didn't always take it daily because I wasn't sure if it was working.  My "regular" pain was getting to the point of almost unbearable before my fall.

 

About splitting my dose of klonopin...the reason I decided to try that is because, with no pain medicine, my feet hurt so badly at night that I wanted to see if taking some during the day would help my feet not hurt so bad at night.  That is the one thing I seem to have maybe been right about.  They don't hurt as bad, which I thought would help me sleep.  But it is my neck and shoulders, and my knees and shins and calves which are giving me fits now and keeping me from sleeping.  Neck and shoulders are just painful, but shins and calves are both painful AND have that definite withdrawal feeling that Pam described (for me it is almost now like a little motor vibrating in my legs).  It also happens in my "brain", but I always attributed that to the cymbalta...NOT to the benzo.  Now I am thinking it probably is neurontin, benzo, AND cymbalta related.

 

Anyway...enough of a ramble. When I see my primary care doctor on Monday, I am going to talk to him about all this and see if he has any thoughts.  Sorry REALLY about how jumbled and confused this all is.  I totally agree it would have been better to do one drug at a time...but like I said earlier, I couldn't get zanaflex refilled without going in to the pain specialist...and the soonest I can see them is October 2.

 

Thank you, Adelia...for bearing with this post!

 

~Leena

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Hi Leena, good to hear from you!  Your post does not sound "jumbled" at all.  Au contraire!  You sound quite logical and coherent compared to some of my early posts.  Oh my gosh. 

 

Very interesting story about your pain management experiences, the injections and all.  You've really been through a lot, haven't you?  Could you refresh my memory....what was your "original pain".  What a lot to deal with....wow. 

 

I know what you mean about feeling a "mess".  Last year I did too, when on my own cocktail of meds.  How could we NOT feel a mess?  Don't worry though....you're doing GREAT and you are getting there, one day every day that goes by.  I feel so happy to be living life again without the meds.  I do rely on one or two here and there, for a migraine, nerve pinching, or whatever.  But hey, compared to taking them every day full-time?  I'm in heaven!!!

 

BTW, I've read some stories about Soma, and people having hard times getting off it.  Don't know how long you took it, but those meds can have benzo-like effects too, the way I understand it. 

 

Hang in there Leena!!!! 

adelia

[[le...]]

:-\Hi Adelia...My original "illness" (for which xanax was prescribed, and then changed to Klonopin) was a cluster of symptoms that included numbness and weakness in my face, arms, and mostly my left leg.  I had a brain MRI to see if it was MS.  Back then, it wasn't so much painful as it was just "scary".  The first neurologist finally just diagnosed anxiety, and then another neurologist said I had some sort of benzodiazepine receptor disorder (?). This was 1991-1992 and went on until 1998, when I got really "sick".  I have never figured out what it was...But, as you can see, I have been on the klonopin for a very long time. 

 

One thing that I failed to mention is that back in January of this year, I got shingles!  On that weak left leg.  I am only in my mid '50s and so I thought that was pretty weird.  I have read that taking steroids (as in the injections I had in the fall of last year)  can make you more susceptible to infections, so I have wondered if those shots in my spine were the culprit.  I don't know.

 

There is enough "mystery" to make me have this big "what if?"...and that is, what if I go through getting off of all these meds, and the pain remains?

 

About the wd's beginning about 18 hours after I took my klonopin, that fits about perfectly as I would usually end up taking by klonopin about midnight or after.  My pain would always begin late in the afternoon/evening the next day.  I could (and still can) do pretty well during the day.  It is when the day is over that everything gets worse (or perhaps I notice it because I finally start sitting or laying down.).

 

OK...I will close.

 

Thank you for caring!  And for helping...

 

~Leena

[[Pa...]]

Hi Leena,

 

Please let us know how your Dr appointment goes and especially if he tries to prescribe more drugs.  I think all of us here are in agreement that you've been over medicated for a long time.  I know you're worrying that your pain will remain after you taper off of the drug, but how will you know unless you do this?

 

So many folks here were in so much pain before they made the connection that the benzo's were causing it and have gone on to live painfree lives.  I hope you'll be one of them.

 

Keep up posted....

 

Pam

[[le...]]

  Hi Pam!  Well, I am sure that none of you will be surprised that my doctor told me I could just go ahead and quit the klonopin "since I am on such a small dose".  I am conflicted!  I told him I am trying to get off as many meds as I can.  And he is in total agreement with that.  He did give me a sample nasal spray that he says might help my cough...and he suggested that I might want to try to go up on my Cymbalta to 90 mg. to see if it helps both my pain and my crying spells.  I told him I wanted to get the klonopin out of my system first, and he was in agreement with that. 

 

I did ask him if he thought the Neurontin could be causing my cough, since it is listed as a more "rare" side effect.  He said possibly.  I just don't think I can give the neurontin up yet since it is all I have left for pain and I can't sleep when I hurt so badly.  I AM going to quit taking it during the day, because I think it contributes to my crying.

 

I wanted to ask a question regarding getting "stabilized" on a dose of klonopin.  How do you know when you are stabilized?  Would it be a "bad" thing for me to now just go ahead and go down to .25 mg. klonopin and see what happens?  Or do you think I should go to .375 first?  I am just ready to get it done with!

 

You are right about "how will I know unless I try" regarding seeing if being off klonopin helps the pain go away.  Thank you for saying what you did...I don't mean to be so pessimistic!

 

On a really positive note, I have managed to go out the past 3 mornings and walk 4 miles!  I figure maybe sweating will help it get out of my system faster??  (and sweat I did, today!  So hot and muggy here!)

 

OK...thank you Pam!

 

~Leena

[[Pa...]]

Wow, it's so weird you cry.....I couldn't when I was in withdrawals.  I felt if I could have cried, I would be able to release some of the hideous tension and anxiety.  But, too much of a good thing is never good, I'm sorry you feel this way.

 

How are you feeling on the .5 now, better than you did when you first started taking it?  It sounds like you are, especially if you've been out walking and sweating.  Getting stable on this dose doesn't mean feeling great, it means you can bear it.  I think it's probably time for you to cut your dose.  The amount you cut is up to you, can you do a .375, if you can then you can try that.  If not, then go for the .25.  Slow and steady, whatever you decide okay?  This isn't a race, you need to give your body time to adjust.

[[le...]]

Thank you, Pam!  I will go for the .375 first. That doesn't sound too scary.  Slow and steady are good words for me to remember!  I will keep you posted!

 

~Leena

[[ad...]]

Hi Leena,

 

You remind me so much of myself, the past 6 years.  I let myself get so indoctrinated into the medical system....which seems more about treating "fears" than anything else....that I had a pill to sleep, a pill for nausea, a pill for coughs, a pill for muscle spasms, a pill for anxiety, several pills for migraines, several pills for nerve pain, then more pills for all the side effects of the first pills.  My kitchen drawer became a little pharmacy that I could tap into for whatever I didn't want to "feel" anymore.  What I was afraid of feeling. 

 

Now the way I feel about it?  It's okay to not sleep and to cough and to cry and to have viruses and to be anxious and to feel crazy a little.  Just to feel...whatever.  It usually all passes in it's own good time. 

 

I had that BIG question too, same as you.  What happens when I get off all the drugs and have nothing for the pain?  The nerve pain that I was supposed to have for the rest of my life. 

 

Well, I decided the hell of being ON all the drugs was not worth it.  I decided I had the courage to see what the answer to that question was.  And guess what?  I found other solutions and the pain got better!!!  I bet yours will too.  Wait and see. 

 

 

adelia

p.s.  keep us posted on your first cut....yahoo!!!

 

[[le...]]

    Well, I have made my first cut.  And...I went ahead and cut to .25 instead of my original thought of going to .375.  My thinking is that, since I am already feeling badly anyway, can I really feel much worse? (I don't think I want ya'll to answer that...)  I know it is not a race, but there is so much going on in our lives right now that I feel like I HAVE to get this over with so that I can do "life".  I have basically been out of commission for 6 months (and that is what the orthopedist predicted for me...so no surprise).  My husband has been on sabbatical and returns to work this Sunday, and my two grown sons are out of work and living at home right now.  I really want to be available!  Adelia, what sort of things do you do for pain now?  You are right...I do have a lot of fear about being rendered "helpless".  My husband's work is very related to "helping" and I am so used to being able to "help" along with him.

 

Pam or Theresa, I can't remember where on the forum I saw that one of you takes theanine, taurine, and tyrosine.  Can you tell me more about how you take it?  I have been taking theanine throughout my recovery from the accident...and I have the other two supplements.  I am just not sure how to take them. 

 

I will keep you posted about how it is going!

 

~Leena

[[Th...]]

Pam or Theresa, I can't remember where on the forum I saw that one of you takes theanine, taurine, and tyrosine.  Can you tell me more about how you take it?  I have been taking theanine throughout my recovery from the accident...and I have the other two supplements.  I am just not sure how to take them.

 

I don't take any supplements but you can do a forum search and find what and who you are looking for. Just click on the word "forum" at the top of page and then type the word "theanine" in the search box and then the other words.    Hope that helps. 

[[Js...]]

Hi leena ( & T2), I think it was Lady of the Nite that was taking those supplements.

 

Jim

[[le...]]

Thank you Jim and Theresa...I did find that thread I was looking for!  I appreciate your attentiveness greatly!

 

~Leena

[[Pa...]]

Hi Leena, how are you feeling today? 

[[le...]]

Hi Pam,

 

Mostly today, I was just really tired.  I had a rough night last night (again, it feels like I am awake and asleep at the same time), feeling all the pain in my legs and shoulders and neck.  So it may just be lack of sleep that has made me so tired.  But I haven't felt anything else too unusual today and have been very thankful.  I am taking my .25mg at about 1:00 in the afternoon.

 

I will keep you posted!  Thank you so much for asking!

 

~Leena

[[so...]]

getting close now lena, keep it going. 

St

[[le...]]

Wow softtail...You are all done!   Congratulations!  How are you feeling?

 

Thank you for the encouragement!

 

~Leena

[[Pa...]]

Hi Leena,

 

I'm sorry you're in so much pain, no wonder you can't sleep.  Have you considered trying to take your dose a little later in the day?  I wonder if that would help you sleep at all?  Whatever happens, this is a slow painful process, but it's worth it.

 

Pam

[[so...]]

smooth sailing here for me leena,  I am one of the very lucky ones.  hoping the same for you

st

[[le...]]

Softtail,  I am so glad for you!  What an encouragement to hear those words "smooth sailing"!

 

Pam, I am not sure why, but it seems that since I started taking klonopin earlier in the day rather than at bedtime, my feet don't hurt so much as I am laying in bed.  I may have to do a little more experimentation with the timing.

Maybe I could move it more towards dinner and see what happens.  Thank you for the suggestion!

 

~Leena

[[ad...]]

 Well, I have made my first cut.  And...I went ahead and cut to .25 instead of my original thought of going to .375.  My thinking is that, since I am already feeling badly anyway, can I really feel much worse? (I don't think I want ya'll to answer that...)  I know it is not a race, but there is so much going on in our lives right now that I feel like I HAVE to get this over with so that I can do "life".  I have basically been out of commission for 6 months (and that is what the orthopedist predicted for me...so no surprise).  My husband has been on sabbatical and returns to work this Sunday, and my two grown sons are out of work and living at home right now.  I really want to be available!  Adelia, what sort of things do you do for pain now?  You are right...I do have a lot of fear about being rendered "helpless".  My husband's work is very related to "helping" and I am so used to being able to "help" along with him.

 

Pam or Theresa, I can't remember where on the forum I saw that one of you takes theanine, taurine, and tyrosine.  Can you tell me more about how you take it?  I have been taking theanine throughout my recovery from the accident...and I have the other two supplements.  I am just not sure how to take them. 

 

I will keep you posted about how it is going!

 

~Leena

 

Nice signature line Leena.  Very informative! 

 

Yeah, you don't want to know the answer to that question..... I asked myself the same thing as I did my kamikazi taper.  And I got my answer....

 

From what I've noticed so far about mine and others, it seems if one is "sailing through" (like softail), then one can keep sailing.  If one is already bad off and having a hard time, well.....probably best not to throw caution to the wind. 

 

I wanted to get back to life too, right away!.  I was sick all last year.  This year, I'm learning patience.  Rather, it was forced on me due to the unpredictable nature of benzo recovery, so I am practicing "surrendering" to it.  To my daily needs.  It's quite a practice, but how bad can it be, to be more patient?  I can tell you though, life doesn't end just because we're recovering.  I've continued on with my daily life and have even made progress in many areas.   It's not either black and white...it's quite a "grey" area, this benzo thing. 

 

BTW, I'm one of the supplement queens around here.  I love 'em!  Don't take as many as I used to, just because I feel so much better.   I still take taurine, theanine, and GABA almost everyday (with magnesium and vitamins and such).  Tyrosine if any "depression" descends or my thyroid needs boosting.  Here are some tips I use for myself:   

 

Take one at a time, to see if any effect or reaction.  Keep track of symptoms.

Take caps, they absorb better...on an empty stomach one hour before or two hours after a meal.

Take with B6 or whatever other nutrients (usually B vits.) needed to help them work better. 

 

Also, what works today may not work tomorrow.  And vice versa!  Just to throw some more unknowns into the mix.  What worked for me 3 months ago no longer works.  Kind of thing. 

 

Keep up the good work Leena!

adelia

[[le...]]

Thank you, Adelia.  I have a question about when you took yourself off opiates.  Did you do a lot of research about that...like you have with the benzodiazepines?  I was reading the book, BenzoWise, today and it dawned on me that it could be possible that, just like after benzodiazepines leave your system and you can have withdrawal symptoms long after they are out of your body, that maybe the same thing can happen with opiates??  I am just TOO tired to go back to the MedHelp Forums that I visited while getting off the opiates.  I still can't help but wonder since I was on them for so long, if I could still be having withdrawal symptoms from those?  What do you think?

 

I am so glad to know you are the "queen of supplements"!  I religiously took magnesium glycinate and theanine while I was withdrawing from the really heavy opiates, and I know it helped.  I will take note of your advice in this area!

 

I have been more achy today, mostly in the legs.  I did not go walk today, so no endorphins    It will be "interesting" to see what tomorrow brings.

 

I can't say it enough to all of you who keep communicating with me...THANK YOU !!!!!!

[[ad...]]

Leena, I could write a book on opiates.  Not only have I been on and off most of them, even the uncommon ones, I've done a lot of research on them.  Actually, I thought about writing a book for lay people (since I'm a health educator), because drs. let patients go so uneducated about them. 

 

I had that same question as you last December -- could the opiates be the culprit?  They are often made out to be the bad guys, so it's a valid question.  After I did the last CT Nov 08, and kept having "symptoms" of aching burning legs, and just feeling sick in many ways, I asked several drs. who at least knew about opiates...could I be having protracted w/d symptoms from opioids?  The answer was always "no", it's very unlikely. 

 

There is some opioid detox of course, after off, and no doubt it's different for everyone.  And no doubt getting the brain neurotransmitters back to normal from opioid use could go on.  They work on DOPA.     

 

HOWEVER....the benzos are known to cause so much trouble, tapering off and getting off.  It's hard to believe, but it's true!  I would just assume that they are the worst problem right now. 

 

adelia

[[le...]]

Wow...thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with me!  Maybe you SHOULD write a book, with all you have been through and all you know!

 

I have another doctor appointment on Friday, this one probably my final appt. with the pain specialist.  Actually, I rarely get to see the doctor himself (an older, very established neurologist who is highly respected in our city).  I see his PA, who is very nice, but never remembers from one appt to the next what we have tried.  VERY frustrating for me.  Plus, she talks so fast that I cannot think and answer fast enough before she is on to the next question.  I would love for them to help me with the klonopin, but I am afraid they will say, like my family doctor did, "You are on such a small dose...just go ahead and stop."  They DID help me taper off of the fentanyl patch, though...so maybe they have benzo knowledge.  I have NEVER addressed the klonopin at the pain specialists.

 

Out of curiosity, have you ever used neurontin?

 

Thank you, Adelia!

 

~Leena

[[so...]]

Leena, hi, welcome to  the buddies forum, and I hope some of the feedback helps here.  I ended up on the benzo's ,oddly enough, as a treatment for Restless leg syndrome.  Unfortunately for me, the benzo's did nothing for me other than make my life a living hell when I tried to get off.  This lasted for a part of my taper and then the symptoms magically went away.  The medicine that works for me to treat the symptoms of the RLS  is oxycodone, an opiate, but I take only 2.5 to 5mg at night.  After  finding out about how bad getting off the benzo's was , I was pretty scared about continueing on the oxy.  I couldn't find anything that indicated that getting off opiates was even a close second to getting off the benzo's, which made me feel better.  fortunately i do not need the large doses of the opiate to quell my symptoms, so I believe if I stopped tomorrow I would have no backlash.  If I did though I would have to substituete either neurontin, or lyrica or ultrum  to ease the symptoms. and thats like robbing from peter to pay paul in my book.  My vote would be to get off the benzo for sure, then deal with any other drugs after.  Of course if you are suffering from severe pain , you have that additional problem to add to your woes.  hope things work out for you

ST.