Help with starting liquid taper from Xanax and adding Valium

[[Ju...]]

What happens to someone else may not happen to you.  There is that old saying:  It ends when it ends.  I know, very frustrating.  Bottom line, don't worry about something that may not happen to you.  A benzo wd is as unique as a fingerprint.  You're gonna be fine!

[[...]]

Yeah, I know. I hope so..

 

It just sucks to read that. And like in the other posts you wrote, you may want to get off it and get the healing show part on the road. I feel that too.

 

But that kind of sucks also a bit. Because when we're finally off the drug everyday, were still sick.

 

It's still gonna take a while to 'heal' even after you've stopped.

 

And I feel I've already wasted half this damn year already on this crap. How much more time will it take even after I 'jump" and am 'free"..

 

Sucks.

 

Most drugs, even booze, when you stop taking it. It goes away in a few days and your back to normal. But not this crap.

 

End of rant.

[[...]]

Hey Juliea

 

I thought I'd come back over here for a bit!

 

I can't sleep.I've been up for 24 hours now. I WANT to cut today ( or I'm ready to) but now I'm messed up by not sleeping.

Well, I should say it's not really insomnia, I just have my sleep pattern is way off again. This has happened before.I can sleep alright, just not when I want to sleep.And the problem is since I dose 3 x a day, it bumps up into my dosing time.

 

My first dose is due in about 1 1/2 hour from now, then 5 hours later another , then 4 hours later another .

 

So, If I dose now, THEN I'll want to sleep, BUT I've got to get up and dose again!!! Sucks.

 

Or I could just stay up and try and sleep at night to get back on the pattern. BUT, THEN I probably wont cut today!

 

Because I always feel it the day I cut, then the next day is mellow, then it hits again on the 3rd etc..But I always do feel it on the day I start. I do.

 

And right now I'm a mess not from the drug, Or from WD's. but from the sleep pattern being so off! I actually feel good except for not sleeping for 24 hours!!!

 

 

Advice?

[[...]]

Oh, and i know how i'm gonna cut next.I'm just gonna cut my first dose. keep 2nd and 3rd the same. not going to drop a dose yet.Just cutting the first in half.That way i still have two more doses left in case there is any trouble AND i still have three doses, even though 2 of them are tiny now.

 

 

I guess,I think, unless i DO cut my mid out completely? And then just get used to 2 doses daily? I don't know.

 

AHHHH!!!!

[[...]]

I'll probably end up cutting the first one...

 

 

I've just got to sort out my sleeping pattern first.

[[Ju...]]

No sleep = me feeling awful.  I'm so sorry your sleep pattern is messed up.  I'd do what I could to ease myself back into somewhat regular hours.  I know you're a night owl.  Good luck with this.  You know your patterns much better than me.  But I believe sleep is very important as related to healing.  Do whatever it takes, JACD.  If nothing else works, sleep when you can.  I hope you get some rest and feel better.

 

Edit:  Sorry, no advise on the cuts except do what you feel is best. 

[[...]]

yeah, i do sleep when i can.But that kinda prolongs the problem.

It works in the short term. But long tern it's bad.

 

Like Xanax! Ha!

 

 

Like, now, I could dose, then crash, and I would sleep too ( this is what happened yesterday also) but then I'd have to set the alarm to take another damn pill, and then I'll still be tired so, back to sleep and then the alarm goes off 4 hours later and it's pill time again.

 

And thats how it goes.

 

Unless, I just fight it and stay up I'm REALLY SLEEPy now and dose and THEN let myself sleep late tonight. THEN I'm back on the pattern.

 

But short term, I'll be tired all damn day ( or night) AND I ain't gonna cut in the middle of this! So that sucks too. Because I'm ready to cut.

 

 

 

[[...]]

No sleep = me feeling awful.  I'm so sorry your sleep pattern is messed up.  I'd do what I could to ease myself back into somewhat regular hours.  I know you're a night owl.  Good luck with this.  You know your patterns much better than me.  But I believe sleep is very important as related to healing.  Do whatever it takes, JACD.  If nothing else works, sleep when you can.  I hope you get some rest and feel better.

 

Edit:  Sorry, no advise on the cuts except do what you feel is best.

 

Hey Juliea

 

Well I still am having problems sleeping. I did my stay up trick ( to reset your pattern) and it sort of worked. I did sleep at the right time BUT then I woke up from that sleep 3 hours later! So, it didn't really work. Now I'm just back to sleeping when I can. That means, take a dose, feel tired and go, sleep, Then up again for next dose and sleep again. It sucks but at least I can get some sleep.

 

Anyway, this sleep pattern has been hard for me to start my next cut.Today makes day 19 of my hold! So long. But I had to hold due to life drama, anyway have been ready to cut for about 5 days now and the life drama is worked out and okay but now comes this sleep trouble!

 

I have 3 doses I take. The grams are 20g/10g/30g. My only two options were to cut the first dose by 10grams so it would go 10g/10g/30g. OR to cut the second dose by 10g. But that means also dropping out a dose. So, that would look like 20g/0g/30g. Two doses. I've been doing 3 doses for 6 months. So, I thought the 'safest' way to go would be to cut the first by 10g. So 10g/10g/30g.However I CANT SLEEP! I feel sick. And when it's time to take that first dose and cut 10g out of 20g, I feel so out of it (due to not sleeping for 24 hours) that I just go ahead and take the 20g.

 

This is how it has gone on for the last few days. But it's getting long, it's day 19 now ( my longest hold ever) SO, today, I still felt sleepy and bad but this time I cut. I ended up dropping my mid dose.

 

I only slept 3 hours and then took my first of 20g, then I went to sleep. I set the alarm for the next mid dose, it woke me up but I said screw it, I'm sleeping, and I slept, then woke up about an hour before my final dose of 30g was due. And I took that.So today I dropped a dose. Now feeling some 'hyperness' agitation like I always do when I make a cut, and am still tired , of course.

 

But my question to you is what to do next?

 

I am fine with cutting. I just don't yet feel I should DROP a dose yet. I can still cut my 10g and also keep 3 doses.That's what I wanted to do but I was just too sick tired to cut the first one.

 

So I want to know, If I wake up tomorrow and want to cut my first dose and then bring back my second , will I be ok? So, it would look like this 10g/10g ( bringing back the dose I cut today) night 30g. The cut would be the 10g from the 20g of my first.

 

I just want to know if my CNS wont flip out? It has only been one day, but. OR the other idea is just reinstate for one day, just to 'reset' the pattern to back to 20g/10g/30g and THEN 24 hours later then cut my morning dose?

 

 

Any ideas?

 

Or, of course, I could just see what happens and skip the mid dose again tomorrow? But I feel I could have waited at least one more cut before I do. I still will be cutting the drug, just not dropping a dose yet. I don't want to get hit two ways, when I can get the same cut without needing to drop just yet. I don't want to make things worse if I don't need to. Especially if I can still cut the same amount without dropping from 3 to 2 doses a day.

 

Ideas please?

[[Ju...]]

Hey, JACD.  Since you have a scale, can't you just continue 3X's per day dosing as long as you want to?  I'm sorry but I don't understand the problem.  Will the scale not allow you to measure out 3 doses? 

 

 

[[...]]

yes, I can. That's what I'm trying to say. I can go about my next 'cut" any sort of way.

 

One way is to keep mesuring it out so it's a new 'cut' but still 3 x a day doses as usual.

 

OR I  could do this...I am at a point when I also could, DROP one of the doses to make the same type of reduction or 'cut'.

 

That's what I am stressed about.

 

Do I just make another reduction in dose, but still keep all three cuts?

 

Or do I drop one of my cuts to make the same reduction in dose.

 

To drop or not to drop.

 

That's what I'm asking.

 

Either way it will still add up the same cut wise. I just want to know if I drop the mid dose as my 'cut' will it be perceived by my CNS as a DOUBLE CUT somehow?

 

Will dropping a dose as my 'cut' be perceived as a double whammy to the CNS? Will it think 'oh great not only did we get a reduction he's also only feeding us 2 times a day now instead of three, LETS STOP HIM!!" and then I flip out.

 

That's what I want to know.

 

Because I could still do a cut, and still keep all 3 doses, if i wanted to.

 

Or I can drop a dose and make it 2 doses and use the dropped dose as my latest 'cut".

 

What to do?

 

That's what I'm asking. Will it make a difference? Because I've never dropped a dose yet. Only cuts.And it would be easy to just drop a dose as my cut. Because cutting them all so small is a pain. But I won't drop yet if it means my CNS will flip out.

[[Ju...]]

Personally, I'd probably do another cut and keep three doses.  I'd do this as long as I felt it was necessary.  Which dose to cut? I have no idea. 

 

Think about this.  People who water titrate, sometimes divide the liquid into dosing jars.  When their doses get really low, some of them add more water to the mixture so as to continue to be able to dose as often as they wish. 

 

Also, please take a look at Notforme's dosing log she posted on the Xanax Blog again and I believe you can see how she started eliminating doses.  She dosed more often than you, but it might give you some ideas.

 

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Juliea

 

 

One more thing...

 

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna now go back and stick with my 3 x a day dosing pattern.I'm not gonna drop just yet.I'll just make the cuts smaller etc. I'll still do the 'cut' just back to 3 x a day.

 

Anyway,  I did drop a dose last night as one of my cuts,I went from 3 x to 2 times as my 'cut' but now I want to go back, but should I, wait a day before I now try and go back to my 3 x a day but smaller cuts plan?

 

In other words should I just go back, for today and NOT do any cuts , just to 'reset' things and then tomorrow start the cut proper.

 

Or since I did already make a 'cut' yesterday (by dropping one dose), should I just continue. And go ahead and cut today. And just keep all three doses?

 

I just want to know if I need a 'time out" first, before I change up things again. Since I did do a 'change' yesterday, should I wait a day first before 'changing' again?

 

It has only been 24 hours but..maybe I should wait a day and then do it?

 

Or does it not make a difference if I get on with it today?

.

I hope I'm making sense!!

[[Ju...]]

No, I do not believe I'd go back.  I'd just begin dosing 3X a day again.  I believe you'll be fine. 

[[...]]

Thanks Juliea.

 

Well MUCH better for the past few days. I finally SLEPT! Thank God. And , so far, have been on a nice pattern 6 hours a night. I just went for it and cut. I'm on the same three times a day. .333/.333/.1250 (or something?) Anyway, I didn't wait , I just kept going and so far , so good.

 

Feel much better. So, far this cut .1875 has been my smoothest yet. Can't believe it! I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop but so far ( day 4 ( really 72 hours) i've been Okay.

 

It's been physical again. Not mental. Fine with me. Muscle aches, pain, flu vibe has been less this cut. Just the bad insomnia ( which has passed now).

 

However, I do have one thing. Did this happen to you?

 

Skin rash? Skin rash on my forehead and parts of my face! Red 'spots" and almost like a welt or lumps. Itches a bit , like a spider bite kinda.

 

I saw this and said "oh, that's a new one".

 

Ever had the 'skin rash/itch" thing?

 

The fun never stops with this crap.

 

But, I'll take it any day over the fear panic mental stuff!!

 

Have you heard of the skin rash as a symptom? On your face/forehead?

 

I don'y know what to do. I don't want to put any cream on it ( god knows whats on it) so I'm just riding it out. But I do hope it's a symptom and I dont have poison ivy or something!

 

I think it might be Hives?...Red welts on forehead...Thanks again Xanax!

[[Ju...]]

Great the cut is going well, JACD! 

 

I had a similar experience with hives.  Mine was on my face too!  This happened about 3-weeks post jump.  I had changed homes.  I did my taper at my vacation home on the coast and came back to my main home for recovery.  I woke up one morning with hives on my face, (around my eyes too), exactly like you describe.  At first I thought it was an environmental thing, like a strong cleaning agent I was reacting to.  I re-washed everything.  I came to the conclusion it was a nerve thing due to withdrawal.  I took an antihistamine and this helped.  Benadryl, I believe.  I also used cold compresses for the swelling.  Yep, I think this might be what is happening to you too.  Mine lasted a few days and slowly got better. Try not to let this worry you.

 

Xanax, the gift that keeps on giving .... 

[[...]]

Hi Juliea!!

 

How are you my Buddie?

 

Just an update here, I'm feeling good! I'm day 2 into my latest cut. Now at .1250! or 40 grams on the scale.

 

Still at 3 doses a day, but I finally cut into the night dose ( my largest dose, and the one I have not touched for 4 months). I'm 48 hours in ( really day 3 ) and like the last two cuts it's mainly physical. Not mental. Thank God!

Yes, one of my 'new' sxs is the face hives! Sucks. Hurts and burns and itches. But goes away. Happens after taking a dose, then ends about an hour later. And it seems to only happen the first few days of each new cut, then stops and goes away. But it's here.

 

I also feel the itch on my arms sometimes too.

 

That plus, the usual sore muscles, headaches, ears ring, dizzyness and benzo belly.

 

I also get this weird skin 'sunburn" type burning feeling on my chest. That's new too.

 

With tiny flashes quick of 'fear/anxiousness" but very quick, then gone. NOTHING like it was the first few months.

 

All lasts about 5 days, with the first, second and fifth days being the worst. The 'peak" sxs day is day 5 ( really day 4,120 hours in) but then I start to stabilize.

 

My last cut of .1875 was a hold for 12 days ( short for me) and would have been less but it was the July 4th holiday etc. But this cut and the last few I do feel I may be ready to speed it up a bit.I may be able to do like 7/8 days here. Unless some more home/life drama b.s.hits.

 

But 'health wise", I (so far) feel ready. Or at least to cut at 9/10 day holds. No more 19 day holds, I hope!!

 

Yeah, the itch sucks, but I'll take it. This is LUXURY! compared to a few months ago! Luxury!

 

I just wish that after I'm off this, I could feel 100% normal. But I'm sure that's not the case. And I'm sure, I'll be writing a lot more when I'm off this stuff. Then part two of the 'adventure' begins.

 

Ugh. I just wish it was done when the last crumb was swallowed. And then i could go home. And be free,

 

But I've come this far. So, hopefully it wont take ANOTHER 7 months!!

 

Or if it does, at least I hope I can start 'functioning" again in the mean time.

 

That what I'm trying to do. I've left the house a bit. Walked to the stores. Talked to people outside.

Trying not to be a shut in. Reading my CBT books. Practicing with 'panic". Exposing my self to 'life' without Xanax.

 

Still haven't driven my car yet. Or even been in a car in 6 months, but, we'll see.

 

Yes, it sounds like we have the same skin hive rash. Sucks. Were you by yourself at your vacation home during your taper? Did you do it alone?

 

Thanks for all your support Juliea!!

[[Ju...]]

Congrats on being at .125, JACD!!!   I'm so glad you are hanging in there and seem to be doing well.

 

I'm also glad that you've felt well enough to start venturing out.  The driving again will come, I promise you.  I stopped driving too and was also very reclusive, so you aren't alone with these kinds of symptoms. 

 

I was not alone during my taper, for the most part.  I had a boyfriend at the time who supported me by doing things like grocery shopping and bringing in meals.  He was a huge help.  I can't imagine going through this process alone.

 

I'm living totally alone now though and enjoy having my space to myself.  In fact I've been making it alone since I was about 3-weeks benzo free, so I think you might be surprised at how well you do once your taper is complete.  I did a 4 hour drive back home at 3 weeks too, no problem. 

 

I'm proud of you, JACD.  You have almost slain the dragon.   

[[...]]

Hi Juliea!

 

Thank you, as always for your kind words. They really mean a lot.

 

Well, I'm having a bad few days here.. Life /home drama B.S. as usual..and that's weighing me down. I hurt my toe bad and so, I really couldn't leave the house because it hurt to walk. It's better now but, I've been having problems again with the fear of venturing out. I was doing good. then the foot thing hit so I couldn't leave even if I wanted to, and then I felt like out of practice. But I'll try it again..

 

Good to hear about your experience with driving again. That gives me hope. And I like what you said about feeling better when your finally off the taper and being able to do things again. I PRAY i'm like you with that. As you know, I feel my main problem with being so sick is not because I went from .75 in feb to .1250 in July. But that I went from using 3-4 times a week to using 3 times a day. Every day.

 

So, I hope that when I finally stop this I'll feel better. Even though it's a very small amount.

 

Because for me I do feel much better then I have since the beginning of this. But the thing is, I'm still sick. I'm sick every single day.

 

It's just that I used to be REALLY sick every single day and now I'm just a little sick every single day.

 

But, I'm still sick every single friggen day.

 

And aside from being sick every single day, what else do I do every single day? Take XANAX.

 

So, hopefully when I'm off it, I can get a BREAK. Because it sucks being even a 'little' sick. And like we've talked about each week is a 'new' symptom.Last cut it was the hives! This cut it's been sort of mental again ( not like it was) and also this weird sensation to pee all the time?

 

Did you every get that one? It's new to me! Now the hives are gone but I feel like I've got to pee a lot!!?? And I'm depressed. I know I should be happy, I've come so far, but I'm down a lot. I just feel like I wasted SO much time getting off of this crap. I just feel like it's so out of proportion for someone like me who wasn't a daily or long term user to have suffered so much and for it to have taken like 7-8 months to get off it. I feel like getting off it I took so much more of it then I ever did before when I was 'on" it.

 

The 'cure' was worse then the 'disease'. At least in my case.

 

But here we are.

 

It's funny. I've added up the total amount of Xanax I'm on now is SO crazy low, it ridiculous. I take less then 1mg for the whole 7 days!! I used to take that all at once and on one day!

 

That's why I think , again it's the frequency and consistency of taking this crap thats doing it. Not the reduction in dose.

 

So, when it's finally removed. I hope I spring back to normal here. Because I feel I've done everything else you're supposed to do. My dose is WAY low..and I do feel better. But the one thing that still hasn't changed yet, is me taking this Xanax 3 times each day.

 

That is the next step.

 

So, I think tomorrow or the next day I'm going to try and drop my middle dose. Then I'll be at 2 doses a day.

 

We'll see? I hope it sticks! Otherwise, I'll just keep on shaving all three doses down tinnier and tinnier. But I think the reason I'm still out of it is the 3 x a day thing. Not that it's so low. I think I've paid the dues with that part of the taper. Now want to try and get back to just 2, then 1 time a day. Like I should have done all along.

 

Miss ya pal!

 

JACD

[[Ju...]]

Sorry about your foot.  Like you needed yet another thing to deal with.  Darn.

 

I've had all kinds of urinary tract things happen during tolerance as well as my taper, short of infections.  No infections, thanks goodness.  But I've had problems with needing to pee a lot and also not being able to pee in a public restroom.  The shy bladder thing was the worst because if I went out and needed to go to the bathroom it would take FOREVER to relax enough to go.  It was an awful feeling to go out with friends and have them wait and wait and wait for me to finish up.  I don't have problems like this anymore so it was another gift from Xanax. 

 

I so hope that when you jump things will get back to relatively normal quickly.  It won't be much longer now, JACD.  You can do this!!   

[[...]]

Hey Juliea!

 

Thanks for the info about your pee issue! Yes, I have the same thing now, started on this latest cut. Just feeling like it's not all coming out. Going and then having to go again soon. So, it's probably our old friend Xanax again. Jesus! The hits just keep on coming!

 

Yeah the hives are gone, this week, but now is this 'pee' thing! Also, did you ever get this skin burning thing? It feels like a sunburn. I get it on my back muscles and on my chest.I don't have it so much this cut but it's been another one of my 'new' symptoms.

 

A 'sunburn' feeling.

 

But the 'pee' thing is the worst.

 

How long did it last for you? Did it go away soon?

[[...]]

Juliea

 

Oh, I meant how long did the 'pee' issue thing last? For me it's been about 7-10 days, the length of this latest cut.Never had it before this.

 

I just don't want to have to go to a doctor and all that. Plus we cant have antibiotics ,right? So, I HOPE this is just some damn symptom that will GO AWAY ...

 

 

Thanks Juliea!

[[Ju...]]

Yes, we can take an antibiotic for an infection.  I took Amoxicillin for an infected tooth during withdrawal and had no problem.  Some do react to antibiotics, but many do not.  It's the floroquonoline antibiotics that many of us avoid like the plague. 

 

My pee problem came and went during my taper and seemed to increase when I felt anxiety.  It was generally better in the lower doses and I don't remember this being much a problem post taper. 

 

And yes, I had the sunburn feeling too.  It was most troublesome on my face, neck and chest.  Lovely. 

 

You're gonna be fine. 

[[...]]

Thanks Juliea...

 

 

Well, I just tried to drop my mid dose. Don't feel so good. I still have 2 1/2 hours to go until my night dose, but ( I was afraid of this) since I take this crap every 5 hours nowadays, I seem to really feel it when I stop a dose. That's what I was afraid would happen. I KNEW taking this crap 3 x's a day would be creating a problem that didn't exist before. And a week later when I wanted to change back it was too late. I was 'hooked".  Thanks guys.

 

Anyway, I picked the mid dose to drop because it's my shortest 'wait' between doses ( just 4 hours) and it's really small too, just 8 grams now. My first dose of the day is 12 grams my last is 22 grams and the one in between is now only 8 grams.

 

So, I thought I'd drop it as my next 'cut" I've got to get used to it , right? I've got to get used to not being on this stuff right?

 

Well, I don't feel so hot. I kinda feel like the 'old days' here..Spacey, weak, can't concentrate, tiny waves of panic. Not too bad but this is the worst I've felt in a while and the worst 'immediate" feeling from a 'cut' I've ever felt. Like right away, wham!

 

So, now what?

 

I can ride this out and take my late night pill and end the day. Or I can throw in the towel and just take my damn tiny 8 gram mid dose and forget it tonight, and try something else tomorrow.

 

The other thing I could do , next time of course, is keep all three doses and just cut down my late night dose from 22 grams to 12 grams and have that as my cut instead of dropping a whole dose.

 

This sucks. I thought since It's so low, I wouldn't feel so bad right now. Especially RIGHT AWAY?!!

 

Maybe it will pass? I don't know? I hate being the Ginnie pig here. I'm coming up on 2 hours past when my dose should have been.

 

This sucks.

 

Am I now going to have to keep all three doses all the way down until I'm licking crumbs? WTF?

 

And then when I eventually have nothing left to cut will I STILL be feeling this uncomfortable inter dose WD vibe?

 

Jesus.

 

 

[[...]]

Juliea,

 

I know you probably hate this but what would you do?

 

I know you did the smart thing and never broke up your doses ( like I USED TO do before I got bad advice) so you don't know interdose wd's. But what would you do?

 

Would you just keep on cutting all three doses until there's nothing left?

 

Or would you drop one?

 

As I type this ( and vent) time is passing and I'm getting a little closer to my next dose. So, I think I'll just hang on for tonight and take my final dose and end the day here. I already feel like shit anyway. So, I've 'suffered" today. I've paid my 'dues" for today.

 

But tomorrow? I don't know if I'll do this again.

 

But I've got to get used to not being on this crap. So, I thought I'd try not taking it for 4 hours, but it's tough.

 

Do I wait and see if it gets better? I don't want to add MORE suffering here if I don't need too. If it's still the same result no matter what then maybe I'll go back to the three x's a day? But how do we ever get used to NOT being on this crap unless we try and drop it?

 

 

Maybe I'll set up both types of cuts tomorrow, and try again and see...I REALLY do want this to work ( dropping a dose) but I don't want to add more pain and suffering here if I can achieve the same result a diffrent way.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks Juliea..

 

[[...]]

Update..

 

 

Well, I'm 3 1/2 hours into my dropped dose, and feel better. Sort of okay. Ugh. Who Knows? Maybe it's not so bad?

 

Anyway, 30 mins left to go then it's 22 grams of Xanax! Whoopie!..Ugh.

 

Then today's episode is over. I hope.

 

I wonder what tomorrows show will be?

 

 

Update #2 Well I took my final dose of the night after skipping my mid dose and had a hard 'climb', It was like the old days. Mental 'panic' jolts of 'Adrenalin/fear' quick then gone. This has been the worst first day cut experience I've had in months. Most of them are not so bad all so at once. Maybe it was a double whammy of dropping the dose and feeling that , and then the feeling of missing the 8 grams from it.

 

I don't know if it was because I did two things at once ( the drop/cut) or just because this particular cut was hard. And maybe would have been no mater what. Even if I didn't drop the dose but just cut from somewhere else?

 

I don't know. But I do know that this has been a hard day. All the hits at once today.

 

Seeming to calm down now 1 1/2 hour into final dose...but man. Should I do this again?

 

Or maybe tonight was the first hit and then I'll start to feel better as the days go on? Or not?

 

It just sucks because I could still keep it at 3x's a day and still achieve my lower reduction in dosage. But I'm really trying to get used to dropping this stuff.

 

Because eventually we're gonna have to anyway, and I thought it would be best to do it while I still have a bit left to cushion the fall.

 

But maybe not?