Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)

[[Lo...]]

 

I do promise to circle back here and post the Julia Ross protocols for you.  I'll try to get to that this weekend.

 

 

Ali

That would be great, SeekingSanity. LL

[[me...]]

 

It is also amazing to me that It becomes harder and harder to taper the lower we get on the dose. I'd like to know why! You would think that some of the receptors would have upregulated by now. LL

 

The reason it becomes harder and harder to taper, the lower you go is because of the different effects of the drug. Obviously there is a sedation effect, which is much less as you go lower with the dosage. But there is also a corresponding stimulant effect as the body reacts to the sedation. You have probably felt that "jerking awake" feeling after taking zolpidem, and also the rebound insomnia which happens later the same night and the next night or two. The body does not like being sedated and reacts quite strongly to inhibit sedation through increased production of excitatory compounds--this happens with any sedating drug. 

 

As your dose gets lower, the sedative effect of the dose is not enough to overcome the excitatory rebound effect. So you may not be able to get any sleep from the dose, and in addition, you will be inhibiting sleep later that night as well as the next night or two. Possibly if you were able to go a few nights without the drug, it would be more effective at that low dose (when rebound has worn off), but obviously that isn't testable for most here.

 

That is why buddies who use an additional sleep drug as a "back up" find it much easier to taper. They are using the sedating effect of the benzo, trazadone, mirtazapine, etc.., to overcome the rebound effect from the zolpidem. It creates enough sedation to actually sleep.

[[Se...]]

LL,

 

Here is some information from Julia Ross' book 'The Mood Cure'.  Julia had a clinic in San Francisco for many years and worked with people who were coming off a lot of psychoactive substances, including people on alcohol, tranquilizers and opiates.

 

This is from her questionnaire:

 

Which of the following low GABA symptoms do you use tranquilizers to relieve:

- driven, overworked, presured, too many deadlines

- have trouble relaxing or loosening u

- tend to be stiff, upright, tense

- easily upset or frustrated, snappy

- easily overwhelmed, but can't get it all done

- weak, shaky at times

- sensitive to bright lights, sounds, odors

- use smoking, drinking, eating or drugs to relax or calm down

- worse if you skip meals or go too long without eating

 

Which substances make those symptoms go away?

- sweeets

- starches

- alcohol

- tobacco

- marijuana

- Valium or other tranquilizers

- painkillers

 

Nutrients that can help:

- GABA

- taurine

- glycine

- chromium

- adrenal support

 

Your Tranquilizer Recovery Protocol

 

- Try GABA, 100 - 500 mg between meals (on an empty stomach, 4 times a day) or try a GABA blend formula combining GABA with other soothing aminos (taurine and glycine) such as TrueCalm by NOW or GABA Relaxers by Country Life.  These blends are low potency so you'll probably need to start with 4 or 5 capsules or tablets at a tie.  GABA is available alone in 500 mg tablets.  Add inositol.  See what combination works for you

- You may also need 5-HTP or tryptophan if you are low in serotonin (she has a questionnaire that divides neurotransmitters into "types", this is Type 1 on her questionnaire).  Low serotonin can cause panic, anxiety and sleeplessness

- Use melatonin if sleep is a problem and the above aminos don't get you to sleep (my functional medicine doctor recommends no more than 0.4 mg to 0.5 mg of liquid melatonin (I take NOW brand)

- Try extra magnesium (I wrote a whole thread about my experience with pain and the Vancouver ChangePAIN clinic and their supplement protocol for muscle pain, they advise taking AON or SISU brand of magnesium (recommended 1,000 mg, you need to very slowly build up and space it out throughout the day)

- Vitamin D.  Again, this is more like a sleep hormone than a vitamin and I've posted a really great thread here from Dr. Gromniak about how essential Vitamin D is and how if you are in the northern hemisphere, you can't get enough from skin exposure at certain times of the year in particular.  I take the recommended dose from the ChangePAIN clinic, 5,000 IU and have tested my blood levels, they are optimal

- if you know anything about adrenal fatigue, you'll recognize some of the symptoms from her checklist above.  Getting your adrenals tested is highly recommended, particularly if you are showing signs of hypoglycemia (low blood sugar).  She has a good chapter on nutritional support to recover from adrenal fatigue and Dr. Wilson's book is probably the best out there

- finally she also recommends milk thistle (300 mg) one at breakfast, one at dinner

 

Her protocol box shows:

 

- TrueCalm by NOW or Amino Relaxers by Country Life:  1-4 capsules, 4 times/day empty stomach

- GABA 500 mg as needed:  1 mid morning, 1 mid afternoon, 1 bedtime

- Tryptophan or 5-HTP (50 to 100 mg):  1 bedtime (get doctor's advice if on serotonin enhancing medications ie antidepressants always to avoid serotonin syndrome and always also check with pharmacist)

- milk thistle 500 mg:  1 breakfast, 1 dinner

- melatonin:  0.4 - 0.5 mg, couple of hours before bedtime, wear blue blocking glasses (inexpensive from Amazon) in evening

- Vit D:  5,000 IU or test first then up to 5,000 IU

- magnesium 250 mg:  3 or 4 capsules, spaced out throughout the day (gradually work up to that level)

 

She also recommends ruling out Pyroluria and adrenal fatigue.  If stress, anxiety and/or inner tension have long been part of your moood pattern, you may have pyroluria (a genetic condition).  According to Julia, this runs in families and affects over 40% of alcoholics.  So if you have this in your family background, it is worth taking the questionnaire and doing testing (inexpensive) because the nutritional fix is inexpensive and relatively simple

 

Hope this helps.  I'll post the cautions on when amino acids and other nutrients should NOT be taken below.  Please read it if you are thinking about going this route and remember to check with your doctor and pharmacist.

 

https://tantor-site-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/bonus-content/B0582_MoodCure/B0582_MoodCure_PDF_1.pdf

 

The cautions are listed on Page 5 of this *.PDF.

 

 

Ali

[[Lo...]]

 

It is also amazing to me that It becomes harder and harder to taper the lower we get on the dose. I'd like to know why! You would think that some of the receptors would have upregulated by now. LL

 

The reason it becomes harder and harder to taper, the lower you go is because of the different effects of the drug. Obviously there is a sedation effect, which is much less as you go lower with the dosage. But there is also a corresponding stimulant effect as the body reacts to the sedation. You have probably felt that "jerking awake" feeling after taking zolpidem, and also the rebound insomnia which happens later the same night and the next night or two. The body does not like being sedated and reacts quite strongly to inhibit sedation through increased production of excitatory compounds--this happens with any sedating drug. 

 

As your dose gets lower, the sedative effect of the dose is not enough to overcome the excitatory rebound effect. So you may not be able to get any sleep from the dose, and in addition, you will be inhibiting sleep later that night as well as the next night or two. Possibly if you were able to go a few nights without the drug, it would be more effective at that low dose (when rebound has worn off), but obviously that isn't testable for most here.

 

That is why buddies who use an additional sleep drug as a "back up" find it much easier to taper. They are using the sedating effect of the benzo, trazadone, mirtazapine, etc.., to overcome the rebound effect from the zolpidem. It creates enough sedation to actually sleep.

Thanks Meowie for explaining this to me. I am surprised that I am still getting a sedative effect from the 1/5 of a 7.5 Zopiclone. 7.5 is a fairly high dose however. I was away this past week or so and one night I totally forgot to take the zopiclone. I could not get to sleep which is unusual for me. After an hour or more I got up wondering what do I take now? Wrong thinking but I am still in that pattern! I discovered that I had not taken the zopiclone for that night. I was tempted to take another crumb if I had! But I had them all in little baggies with the date and dose marked. I was relieved to discover this and that I had not taken any that night. I took it and had some carbs and went to sleep easily.

 

My sleep at this point is not bad at all. I generally sleep 6-7 hours of unbroken sleep. I am amazed that I just go to sleep and wake up and it is morning. This is after years of struggling with many awakenings. I do still feel some withdrawal effects - some anxious feelings at times which I deal with by taking some RelaxMax by Xymogen. I think it has some taurine and gaba and theanine in it. Perhaps something else. I do have very tight muscles in neck and shoulders and resultant headaches but they are not as bad as earlier.

 

I do feel some reaction shortly after taking the Zopiclone and it is like my body is putting out excitatory chemicals to fight it but then my body settles down and I do go to sleep. Perhaps as I go lower I will have more of a problem?

 

I just returned from one trip out west with a 3 hour jet lag (3 hours out and 3 hours back) and then leave Wednesday for the east coast with a 2 hour jet lag each way. Stupidly I stayed up very late last night after arriving home very late. I thought to myself that I was on west coast time. However I woke on Ontario time with the light. Urrrggghhh. Dumb!

 

I really don't know what to do except to carry on and play it by ear. I have a lot on for the rest of the month and so don't feel I can just jump. By then, all going well, I will be on a very low dose if I can even cut that small. Or off! Will see, I guess. And then it will be September with new activities. I really don't want to jeopardize my sleep if I can help it as I want to enjoy this time with friends and  large family who are all gathering here after my trip. A lot on my plate.

 

I understand the value of taking something to give the sedative effect. I am not willing to take trazodone or mirtazapine nor is my doctor likely willing to give either to me. So, that leaves an antihistamine. I have tried Benadryl but it does not have much effect on me. And may leave me with a morning frontal headache. Any other ideas?

 

Perhaps you have some advice about the tight muscles in neck/shoulders/headaches etc.

 

Many thanks for the information! All the best to you on your recovery! LL

[[Lo...]]

LL,

 

Here is some information from Julia Ross' book 'The Mood Cure'.  Julia had a clinic in San Francisco for many years and worked with people who were coming off a lot of psychoactive substances, including people on alcohol, tranquilizers and opiates..........

 

Nutrients that can help:

- GABA

- taurine

- glycine

- chromium

- adrenal support

 

Your Tranquilizer Recovery Protocol

 

- Try GABA, 100 - 500 mg between meals (on an empty stomach, 4 times a day) or try a GABA blend formula combining GABA with other soothing aminos (taurine and glycine) such as TrueCalm by NOW or GABA Relaxers by Country Life.  These blends are low potency so you'll probably need to start with 4 or 5 capsules or tablets at a tie.  GABA is available alone in 500 mg tablets.  Add inositol.  See what combination works for you

- You may also need 5-HTP or tryptophan if you are low in serotonin (she has a questionnaire that divides neurotransmitters into "types", this is Type 1 on her questionnaire).  Low serotonin can cause panic, anxiety and sleeplessness

- Use melatonin if sleep is a problem and the above aminos don't get you to sleep (my functional medicine doctor recommends no more than 0.4 mg to 0.5 mg of liquid melatonin (I take NOW brand)

- Try extra magnesium (I wrote a whole thread about my experience with pain and the Vancouver ChangePAIN clinic and their supplement protocol for muscle pain, they advise taking AON or SISU brand of magnesium (recommended 1,000 mg, you need to very slowly build up and space it out throughout the day)

- Vitamin D.  Again, this is more like a sleep hormone than a vitamin and I've posted a really great thread here from Dr. Gromniak about how essential Vitamin D is and how if you are in the northern hemisphere, you can't get enough from skin exposure at certain times of the year in particular.  I take the recommended dose from the ChangePAIN clinic, 5,000 IU and have tested my blood levels, they are optimal

- if you know anything about adrenal fatigue, you'll recognize some of the symptoms from her checklist above.  Getting your adrenals tested is highly recommended, particularly if you are showing signs of hypoglycemia (low blood sugar).  She has a good chapter on nutritional support to recover from adrenal fatigue and Dr. Wilson's book is probably the best out there

- finally she also recommends milk thistle (300 mg) one at breakfast, one at dinner

 

Her protocol box shows:

 

- TrueCalm by NOW or Amino Relaxers by Country Life:  1-4 capsules, 4 times/day empty stomach

- GABA 500 mg as needed:  1 mid morning, 1 mid afternoon, 1 bedtime

- Tryptophan or 5-HTP (50 to 100 mg):  1 bedtime (get doctor's advice if on serotonin enhancing medications ie antidepressants always to avoid serotonin syndrome and always also check with pharmacist)

- milk thistle 500 mg:  1 breakfast, 1 dinner

- melatonin:  0.4 - 0.5 mg, couple of hours before bedtime, wear blue blocking glasses (inexpensive from Amazon) in evening

- Vit D:  5,000 IU or test first then up to 5,000 IU

- magnesium 250 mg:  3 or 4 capsules, spaced out throughout the day (gradually work up to that level)

 

She also recommends ruling out Pyroluria and adrenal fatigue.  If stress, anxiety and/or inner tension have long been part of your moood pattern, you may have pyroluria (a genetic condition).  According to Julia, this runs in families and affects over 40% of alcoholics.  So if you have this in your family background, it is worth taking the questionnaire and doing testing (inexpensive) because the nutritional fix is inexpensive and relatively simple

 

Hope this helps.  I'll post the cautions on when amino acids and other nutrients should NOT be taken below.  Please read it if you are thinking about going this route and remember to check with your doctor and pharmacist.

 

https://tantor-site-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/bonus-content/B0582_MoodCure/B0582_MoodCure_PDF_1.pdf

 

The cautions are listed on Page 5 of this *.PDF.

 

 

Ali

Dear Ali, Thanks for posting this. However, i question some of what she is recommending! And I caution everyone to proceed with much caution. Thanks for pointing out the cautions!

 

First of all, GABA.

 

She said: - Try GABA, 100 - 500 mg between meals (on an empty stomach, 4 times a day) or try a GABA blend formula combining GABA with other soothing aminos (taurine and glycine) such as TrueCalm by NOW or GABA Relaxers by Country Life.  These blends are low potency so you'll probably need to start with 4 or 5 capsules or tablets at a time.  GABA is available alone in 500 mg tablets.  Add inositol.  See what combination works for you.

 

Well, apparently our problem is that the GABA receptors are down regulated and not that we don’t have enough GABA. if we don’t have enough receptors then large dose GABA won’t do anything.

 

it is likely that the receptors sensing that we have a lot of excess GABA will further downregulate to prevent an excess of GABA. Having said that, I admit that I occasionally take some Pharma Gaba that crosses the blood/brain barrier (BBB) when feeling anxious. Not sure if it “works”!

 

Perhaps Inositol is the key here. There is a thread on Inositol and insomnia.

 

SeekingSanity: Who was it that very early on in the groups wrote a lot about supplements? Don’t get me wrong…I take a lot of supplements but I try very hard to find out what will work and why.

 

Dr Ross said: - You may also need 5-HTP or tryptophan if you are low in serotonin (she has a questionnaire that divides neurotransmitters into "types", this is Type 1 on her questionnaire).  Low serotonin can cause panic, anxiety and sleeplessness.

 

Probably true for some but we have to be very careful and check it out. 5 HTP doesn’t work for me and had a downside. I have taken many many supplements over the years and am less and less convinced about them as the body generally knows best. Our bodies are extremely complicated and individual. I am really trying to get all the nutrients I need with diet. That’s challenging.

 

Julie Ross advised: - Use melatonin if sleep is a problem and the above aminos don't get you to sleep (my functional medicine doctor recommends no more than 0.4 mg to 0.5 mg of liquid melatonin (I take NOW brand)

 

Probably good advice although some of us react negatively to melatonin. Not sure why! I certainly did but i have persisted and now do take it as a 3 mg extended release which my oncological naturopath feels is essential for me. I had lots of agitation from it earlier on. And did use very low dose. Extended release works for me. Helps keep me asleep.

 

She recommends: Vitamin D.  "Again, this is more like a sleep hormone than a vitamin and I've posted a really great thread here from Dr. Gromniak about how essential Vitamin D is and how if you are in the northern hemisphere, you can't get enough from skin exposure at certain times of the year in particular.  I take the recommended dose from the ChangePAIN clinic, 5,000 IU and have tested my blood levels, they are optimal"

 

I totally agree that Vitamin D is very very important for many reasons including cancer prevention. However, I believe that it is best taken in the morning. It still helps sleep! I also take about 5,000 mg per day… 5 drops. See these links.

 

https://vanwinkles.com/why-you-shouldn-t-take-vitamin-d-before-bedtime

 

https://www.bulletproofexec.com/bulletproof-your-sleep-with-vitamin-d/

 

http://blog.sethroberts.net/category/sleep/vitamin-d3-and-sleep/

 

Also Dr Ross recommended: Try extra magnesium (I wrote a whole thread about my experience with pain and the Vancouver ChangePAIN clinic and their supplement protocol for muscle pain, they advise taking AON or SISU brand of magnesium (recommended 1,000 mg, you need to very slowly build up and space it out throughout the day)

 

 

I agree with this although I think 1,000 is quite high. Higher than my naturopath would agree to. Which form of magnesium do they recommend? I’d like to see your thread. Where is it?

 

Magnesium Citrate will give you very loose stools at that amount. Magnesium Glycinate is a possibility. I usually take Magnesium Threonate but not that high an amount. Nonetheless I think it is essential. Most people are magnesium deficient.

 

Re Adrenal Fatigue: The withdrawal from the benzo-like drug puts enormous strain on our adrenals even if we don’t have “Adrenal Fatigue”. I do take some adrenal support.

 

Thanks for the cautions re taking Amino Acids. My doctor recommended them but I have not found evidence that they will help. They do apparently help with withdrawal from hard drugs but that is not what we are dealing with. I would appreciate any reports anyone has.

 

Thanks SeekingSanity for posting all this. I’m always interested. LL

[[Lo...]]

SeekingSanity and All: I was just looking at one of the links I posted. The one from Seth's blog. I followed him for some time before he died. He did a lot of self-experiments. Way out in left field but he had a tremendous following. I really enjoyed his posts. Much to learn.

 

I suggest you read what he had to say about the timing of taking Vitamin D.

 

http://blog.sethroberts.net/category/sleep/vitamin-d3-and-sleep/

 

I have been taking it once a week. He tells that this does not help sleep! What a discovery for me! It has been said by the experts that we can take Vitamin D once a week in larger doses or even once a month in huge doses. I thought it sounded easier to do it once a week rather than every day.

 

Easier but it doesn't help sleep. Starting tomorrow i will be taking it every day when I first awake.  Every little bit helps when it comes to getting good sleep.  LL

[[GA...]]

SeekingSanity and All: I was just looking at one of the links I posted. The one from Seth's blog. I followed him for some time before he died. He did a lot of self-experiments. Way out in left field but he had a tremendous following. I really enjoyed his posts. Much to learn.

 

I suggest you read what he had to say about the timing of taking Vitamin D.

 

http://blog.sethroberts.net/category/sleep/vitamin-d3-and-sleep/

 

I have been taking it once a week. He tells that this does not help sleep! What a discovery for me! It has been said by the experts that we can take Vitamin D once a week in larger doses or even once a month in huge doses. I thought it sounded easier to do it once a week rather than every day.

 

Easier but it doesn't help sleep. Starting tomorrow i will be taking it every day when I first awake.  Every little bit helps when it comes to getting good sleep.  LL

 

I started taking Vitamin D3 when my last physical showed a deficiency. Not long after that I did a rapid taper from Ambien, and though I was also taking Ativan, took Vitamin D3, melatonin, magnesium and doxy or diphen most nights of the week. Something must be helping, because I'm sleeping better than I was doing with the Ambien.

 

If there's some kind of placebo effect, so be it. That combination is working well.

 

I'm getting farther down with the Ativan, down to .25MG. I haven't been that low since I first started taking it 26 years ago.

 

It is great to be off of Z-drugs!

 

 

[[al...]]

I take 4,000 IU of vitamin D3 every day because even though I live in Hawaii, I developed a sun sensitivity and must avoid the sun. I can't say that it did much of anything to help with my Ambien withdrawal, unless of course, it would have been much worse without.

[[Ce...]]

I'm joining this thread.  I didn't know it existed, but now I do. Hope to find out more about this evilness. ~CeCe    (I'm ready for the fight)

[[Lo...]]

Hi Everyone, Recently there have been some questions about which supplements to use and why. Earlier I read the thread

 

SUPPLEMENTS AND BENZODIAZEPINE RECOVERY

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=108766.0

 

Perserverance did a tremendous amount of work and it is evidence based. I will re-read this thread starting at the beginning and suggest that anyone taking supplements do likewise.

 

On the other hand if you have self tested a supplement and had good results then what the heck. It may be however that a supplement makes us feel better from withdrawal symptoms but slows down the recovery process.

 

I'm OK with slowing down the recovery a bit if it means a smoother road.  Let's remember that coming off of z-drugs may be a bit different than off of the benzos because of short half-lives of the drugs.  LL

[[Lo...]]

 

I started taking Vitamin D3 when my last physical showed a deficiency. Not long after that I did a rapid taper from Ambien, and though I was also taking Ativan, took Vitamin D3, melatonin, magnesium and doxy or diphen most nights of the week. Something must be helping, because I'm sleeping better than I was doing with the Ambien.

 

If there's some kind of placebo effect, so be it. That combination is working well.

 

I'm getting farther down with the Ativan, down to .25MG. I haven't been that low since I first started taking it 26 years ago.

 

It is great to be off of Z-drugs!

Good job, Gabareceptors. What drugs are the doxy and diphen you are mentioning? I gather they don't affect the Gaba receptors? Thanks, LL

[[Lo...]]

I take 4,000 IU of vitamin D3 every day because even though I live in Hawaii, I developed a sun sensitivity and must avoid the sun. I can't say that it did much of anything to help with my Ambien withdrawal, unless of course, it would have been much worse without.

Do/did you take the Vit D first thing in the a.m.? Was it oil based? I ask as my naturopath says it is important to have it with oil and the oil based supplement helps us absorb it. I am leaving on a trip and wonder how I will carry it. I think it needs to be refrigerated once opened. LL

[[Lo...]]

I'm joining this thread.  I didn't know it existed, but now I do. Hope to find out more about this evilness. ~CeCe    (I'm ready for the fight)

Hi CeceToo, Are you off all drugs now? I'm thinking that this may not be the right thread for you as most are coming off Z-drugs presently. Z-drugs are a bit different from the benzos altho they also may cause very similar withdrawal effects.

 

There are various threads for those with protracted withdrawal that may be of greater help to you.

 

All the best in overcoming the symptoms.  LL

[[Lo...]]

Ok, now I'm into reading all about supplements on the thread I gave earlier. Read Terri's story. Scary! Must leave this now and go to a birthday party for a 3 year old.  LL

 

Supplements and Benzodiazepine Recovery

 

As the popularity of supplements continues to increase companies selling supplements developed and marketed for withdrawal have begun to emerge.  Due to the ever increasing popularity of supplements and this new marketing avenue, it is important to for those of us affected by benzodiazepines (benzos) to take a closer look at the situation, break it all down, and separate real science from pseudoscience.  In this review we will be discussing the following topics as outlined below:

 

1.0  Ashton’s comments on supplements and benzo withdrawal

2.0  Supplements that are Cross-tolerant to Benzos

2.1  GABAA Receptor (GABAAR) Positive Allosteric Modulators

2.1.1  Kava, Skullcap, Valerian

2.1.2  L-Theanine

2.2  GABAAR Negative Allosteric Modulators (NAMs)

2.2.1  Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)

3.0  Manufacturers of Supplements Marketed for Withdrawal

3.1  Neurogenesis

3.1.1  NeuRelieve

3.2  Point of Return

3.2.1  Relax

3.2.1.1  Relax Active ingredient αs1-casein tryptic hydrolysate

3.3  Alliance for Addiction solutions

3.3.1  Amino Acid Therapy

3.3.1.1  L-Tryptophan and 5-HTP

3.3.1.1.1  ‘Serotonin deficiency’

3.3.1.1.2  L-Tryptophan and Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome

3.3.1.1.2.1  Genetically Modified Organisms in Amino Acid Manufacturing

3.3.1.1.3  Serotonin syndrome

3.3.1.2  GABA

3.3.1.2.1  Phenibut and Picamilon

3.3.1.3  L-Glutamine

4.0  Supplement Safety

4.1  FDA MedWatch program

 

1.0 Ashton’s comments on Supplements as it pertains to Benzo Withdrawal

 

Read here: SUPPLEMENTS AND BENZODIAZEPINE RECOVERY

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=108766.0

 

 

Ashton addressed supplement usage in benzo withdrawal in a 2001 supplement to the Ashton Manual where she stated the following:

 

“Nutritional supplements (added April 12, 2012)

There is no evidence that nutritional supplements such as vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc. are helpful in benzodiazepine withdrawal. Excessive doses of some can be toxic and others may even contain benzo-like substances that have the same adverse effects as benzodiazepines themselves. Nor is there any evidence that suggests benzodiazepine withdrawal causes vitamin, mineral or other deficiencies. No-one should take supplements without clear evidence of a specific deficiency. Those who advocate multiple supplements should first show evidence of any deficiency and then conduct proper controlled trials. In particular, taking GABA precursors does not increase GABA concentrations in the brain. Benzodiazepines do not decrease GABA concentrations; instead they alter GABA-receptor affinity. This slowly reverses without the need for supplements and there is no evidence that supplements speed the process. People taking or withdrawing from benzodiazepines should eat a normal healthy diet - which, after all, consists of "natural" substances and contains all the ingredients necessary for the body.

 

Some products which people have tried and found to be at best useless, at worst harmful include: mineral and vitamin supplements, valerian, St. John's Wort, kava-kava, melatonin, Rescue Remedy, BeCalm'd, choline, Noni juice, 5htp, SAMe and GABA. Most recently someone reported adverse effects from a product called Exhilarin (see Terri's Story-)” (1)

 

You can read Terri’s Story here - http://www.benzo.org.uk/terrif.htm

 

[[Fr...]]

Thanks for posting the original post about supplements but again it sounds so confusing! Taking Theanine serene with Relora, will it harm me or do me good?

 

I'm down to .012mg of Lunesta. That's what my scale says. It's just a smidgen of a pill. The last 3-4 nights I've gotten about 3-4 hrs of sleep. Last night I thought I was pulling an all nighter and then took the Theanine (trying really hard to not take Ativan!) and I think I got like 2-3 hrs. Not sure how much bc I don't look at the clock but I feel like death today.

 

So I'm saying screw the Lunesta, I'm done! So tonight will be my first night without it.

 

Trying to stay positive. I don't want this to be the rest of my life, this struggle.

 

I can sleep I can. I'm a good sleeper. I keep telling myself. Mind over matter

[[...]]

Can anyone explain to me the differences in withdrawals from benzodiazepines vs z drugs? Is it any shorter for z drugs, or less likely to be protracted? I'm hoping the answer is yes! I haven't done my signature yet....I was on ambien for 6 months for insomnia related to Graves' disease. I tapered what I now realize was fast and went off July 16th. I'm having horrible w/d symptoms as expected.

[[me...]]

So I'm saying screw the Lunesta, I'm done! So tonight will be my first night without it.

 

Trying to stay positive. I don't want this to be the rest of my life, this struggle.

 

I can sleep I can. I'm a good sleeper. I keep telling myself. Mind over matter

 

Good for you Freespirit--you can do this! 

 

The next couple of nights are likely to be hard also. Just be psychologically prepared for poor sleep and get some activities together to occupy your night time. It's difficult, but as long as you can still function you'll be fine. Sleep will gradually improve. I highly suggest making the Ativan and Ambien a little harder to get to. I gave them to my husband and that did the trick (He would give them to me if I begged, but I would have to wake him up and make a good argument about why I should take them).

 

It is going to feel so fantastic to be drug free!

[[me...]]

Can anyone explain to me the differences in withdrawals from benzodiazepines vs z drugs? Is it any shorter for z drugs, or less likely to be protracted? I'm hoping the answer is yes! I haven't done my signature yet....I was on ambien for 6 months for insomnia related to Graves' disease. I tapered what I now realize was fast and went off July 16th. I'm having horrible w/d symptoms as expected.

 

What are you experiencing in regards to withdrawal symptoms?

 

If you are really suffering, you might consider a short course of diazepam and a taper, but unless you were dosing throughout the day, or on a high dose of Ambien, it is very unlikely that you will have protracted withdrawal symptoms other than disrupted sleep. If you can get through the symptoms they should resolve fairly soon.

 

Here is what Professor Ashton has to say about zolpidem withdrawal:

In my experience, the only exception to the general rule of slow reduction is triazolam (Halcion). This benzodiazepine is eliminated so quickly (half-life 2 hours) that you are practically withdrawn each day, after a dose the night before. For this reason, triazolam can be stopped abruptly without substitution of a long-acting benzodiazepine. If withdrawal symptoms occur, you could take a short course of diazepam starting at about 10mg, decreasing the dosage as shown on Schedule 2. The same approach applies to the non-benzodiazepines zolpidem and zaleplon which both have half-lives of 2 hours.

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Thank you meowie. I am very dizzy, I can't stop crying, I feel flat and I have what I think is dr. The insomnia is awful. I have been severely ill with Graves' disease for the last 9 months, and some of these symptoms were there throughout that time. The worst is the head stuff....which got waaayyy worse when I jumped off the ambien. Thanks for the encouragement. I'm working hard to sort out what is what!

[[wa...]]

Can anyone explain to me the differences in withdrawals from benzodiazepines vs z drugs? Is it any shorter for z drugs, or less likely to be protracted? I'm hoping the answer is yes! I haven't done my signature yet....I was on ambien for 6 months for insomnia related to Graves' disease. I tapered what I now realize was fast and went off July 16th. I'm having horrible w/d symptoms as expected.

Hi erp

I tapered Lunesta too quickly last year and reinstated at a lower dose -- just enough to stop me wanting to go to the ER.  I tapered from there.  It is possible to be dependent on Z drug in 6 months but I think you may have an easier time getting off of it compared to someone who has taken it for years.  This is assuming you were on no other benzo.  It is hard for us folks who have underlying conditions that are autoimmune-related.  But, in the long run, it is possible that your underlying disease may become more manageable without the Z drug.  If you are better today off the Z drug -- hang in there so you don't have to reinstate or mess with crossing over which can be a guessing game.  WBB

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Was up until 5 am this morning

 

22.5mg later I finally got to sleep... Sick of this shit.

 

Wish they worked!

 

 

[[GA...]]

I take 4,000 IU of vitamin D3 every day because even though I live in Hawaii, I developed a sun sensitivity and must avoid the sun. I can't say that it did much of anything to help with my Ambien withdrawal, unless of course, it would have been much worse without.

 

When I mentioned that I had a Vitamin D3 deficiency, someone here or on the Facebook support group advised to get more sun. As I live in the Midwest, there are a lot of cold, grey days in the fall and winter. Usually lots of sun in the summer, but still, as you say, some people are sensitive to the sun. And of course, too much sun for anybody can lead to skin cancer or at the least, aged, dried up skin. So where do you draw the line? Different experts give different opinions on how long you can safely expose yourself to the sun, in your case it may be hardly at all.

 

I have no problem using supplements as long as I keep them in moderate doses. I'm taking a little less than you of the Vitamin D3 and found out from my last physical that my blood level of the vitamin has improved to a more normal level.

 

And so that I take Vitamin D3, magnesium and melatonin, I don't know for sure that it helps my sleep, but I wonder how it would be without taking them. That combination does seem to be helping. I do know I sleep better with the Z-drug out of my system.

[[GA...]]

Was up until 5 am this morning

 

22.5mg later I finally got to sleep... Sick of this shit.

 

Wish they worked!

 

That sounds familiar! It's so easy to build up a tolerance to Z-drugs and then they not only don't work as well, they wake you up wanting more.

 

I can't advise anyone to start substituting other drugs to help them wean off Z, but in my case I happened to already be taking Ativan, also. I even updosed the Ativan to help me make a rapid taper off Z. So what happened? I had no w/d nor even a night of interrupted sleep during that taper. The Ativan was working in the background taking up the slack. I also use Vitamin D3, melatonin and magnesium, all in moderate doses.

 

Sleep is better without the Z. Once that tolerance builds up, it'll actually keep you awake or wake you up too early wanting more. That's how insidious of an addictive drug it is. You might say the benzo is no better, but in case it actually is the lesser of two evils because of the longer half-life. Of course if a person uses benzo to get off the Z-drug, they will then have to taper off the benzo too, but that will be easier than coming off the Z because of that longer half-life.

 

 

[[Se...]]

Hi Everyone, Recently there have been some questions about which supplements to use and why. Earlier I read the thread

 

SUPPLEMENTS AND BENZODIAZEPINE RECOVERY

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=108766.0

 

Perserverance did a tremendous amount of work and it is evidence based. I will re-read this thread starting at the beginning and suggest that anyone taking supplements do likewise.

 

On the other hand if you have self tested a supplement and had good results then what the heck. It may be however that a supplement makes us feel better from withdrawal symptoms but slows down the recovery process.

 

I'm OK with slowing down the recovery a bit if it means a smoother road.  Let's remember that coming off of z-drugs may be a bit different than off of the benzos because of short half-lives of the drugs.  LL

 

LL,

 

I know that is what Dr. Ashton advises and honestly, a lot of people have very sensitive CNS-es in withdrawal.  I couldn't tolerate B vitamins for the first 2 years off, for instance, but did fine with all the other supplements I'm on.  That made treating my adrenal exhaustion more difficult as a lot of supplements for adrenal fatigue include B vitamins but they made me feel revved up and nauseated.

 

I got drawn back to looking at amino acids recently as I'm trying to find ways to heal my mitochondria and improve my energy levels.  In addition, I bought Dr. Kelly Brogan's great new book "A Mind of Your Own" and read her interview with Trudy Scott (www.everywomanover29.com) who worked with Julia Ross for years.  I'm adding Tyrosine to my mix - just started today.

 

Dr. Brogan is a big proponent of putting in the nutritional supports to help with withdrawal in advance of starting the taper process.  Honestly, if I hadn't done this and also balanced my hormones, I'm not sure I could have done this.  Hard to sleep when you don't have enough building blocks to manufacture the neurotransmitters and hormones necessary for sleep.  Optimal nutrition is key and I'm more and more convinced that some judicious shoring up can really help us.

 

This is an excerpt from Dr. Brogan's interview with Trudy Scott on Trudy's blog where she talks about using amino acids in withdrawal.  The caveat is that you must make sure there are no interactions with other supplements and be mindful that you should be working with someone knowledgable.

 

-----------

 

Dr. Kelly Brogan: Yes. Absolutely. I am quite certain that there are many, many, many roads to physiologic and psycho spiritual resiliency. I, in no way, intend to position myself as having the answer by any means. I am very much trying to create a space for all of those who are passionate about natural healing, including yourself and our colleagues, because I think that just about everything in the natural health arena offers you the potential for very high yield, very low-risk healthcare.

 

I certainly don’t consider myself an expert in amino acids and don’t have a fraction of the knowledge that you have about this arena. That being said, I do use them for tapers specifically. If I use supplements I wait after a month of dietary change before introducing any supplements, mostly because I want to, I don’t know, send patients the message of what a single intervention, in terms of lifestyle, what a dietary intervention can do in terms of moving the needle of their health. I often don’t want to cloud the picture with other interventions like even supplements or even detox.

 

After that period, if it is necessary, I’ll often lead with some of the supplements that I talk about, whether it’s probiotic or glandulars, I use a lot based on my work with the only mentor I’ve ever had, Dr. Nicholas Gonzales. I learned a lot about using glandulars, using specific minerals, using fatty acids, that sort of thing. Well, we’re working with SSRIs. I tend to use tryptophan more often than 5-HTP. I do use tryptophan even in the 3 to 6 gram range before dinner and before bed. I would say that it’s helpful often, not in every case, with a lot of the insomnia specifically. It’s about the worst thing that can happen in the setting of a taper. It’s the kind of insomnia that’s induced by psychiatric medication taper.

 

I have several tricks up my sleeve, and that’s certainly one of them. Through my own self-education, and again, you may have a more sophisticated perspective on this that when you use 5-HTP or tryptophan for the longest period of time, meaning over a couple of weeks, so you want to balance it out with tyrosine or DL-phenylalanine. If we are using it for a period of time, I might incorporate that. I have found that when I work with Wellbutrin tapers, it’s extremely helpful. Tyrosine and actually an herb called mucuna support dopamine.

 

Then all of my patients who are tapering – I have them on a blend of amino acids.

 

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There is more on this interview in the audio on Trudy's post.  I'll post a link for it if anyone is interested.  Really recommend Dr. Brogan's book.  The audio (full interview) is at the bottom of the post:

 

http://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/medication-tapering-withdrawal-kelly-brogan/

 

Here is a link to Dr. Kelly Brogan's latest blog post on benzodiazepines and withdrawal.  An eye opening read:

 

http://kellybroganmd.com/benzos/?utm_source=Kelly+Brogan+MD+Newsletter&utm_campaign=81e934abd5-Benzos%3A+A+Dance+With+the+Devil&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d0f977a8c5-81e934abd5-122010197

 

If you go to her website, she is enrolling people for a Beta version of her program based on her book.  I'm not sure, but I think this may be free of charge initially (for the Beta participants).  I've signed up and am curious to see what it is like, I loved her book and am learning a lot.

 

 

Ali

[[Se...]]

One other link for anyone who is having issues sleeping:

 

http://drgominak.com/vitamin-d-hormone.html

 

Dr. Grominak goes over why Vitamin D is really a sleep hormone as opposed to a vitamin and why it needs to be taken with magnesium.  Great article.  Really recommend it for anyone having difficulty sleeping or whose doctor has them on Vitamin D2 instead of Vitamin D3.

 

I optimized my Vitamin D levels and am on 5,000 IU, the protocol my husband's ChangePAIN clinic here in Vancouver has for muscle pain.  I've tested my blood levels and they are optimal.

 

Wish I had known this years ago before I ended up on the z-drugs.

 

Erp - hold strong, it will get better.  Post-jump you are in the post acute withdrawal phase, it won't last forever.  Make sure you get lots of rest, even if you can't sleep.  Some of us used Trazodone or a tiny bit of Remeron to help or antihistamines, 5-HTP, melatonin or tryptophan.  You'll get through this, the initial period is "rebound" insomnia and it won't go on and on.  The worst is usually over in a couple of weeks

 

Zuko - honestly, I think you need a proper taper rather than yo-yoing back and forth from none to 3, or better still once you've come off entirely, just get rid of the temptation and ride out the insomnia.  Throw out the z-drugs so you don't have them on hand.  There is one buddie here who did what you are doing and was very sorry for that pattern down the road.  As long as you are doing this, your GABA receptors won't heal.  It is hard at first but most of us found that we started sleeping so much better off the z-drugs once we got over that initial period.

 

 

Ali