Bioidentical progesterone cream causes withdrawal similar to benzo-

[[pr...]]

Hi Pentimento,

i understand about being on here way too much and getting back to your life.

i will definitely read as much as i can about his therory's. i am going to order the 2 books that i saw on Amazon.

i just want to make sure that i am using a safe progesterone bio-idential cream and i would love to learn how to 'dissolve it in Vitamin E'. that is something i will most definitely need to do more research about.

 

i just got word that my father has TB and the whole family is at risk. so upset about this it's unbelievable. i surely don't need this while i am in a severe kindling/benzo withdrawal.

and i don't wish to take antibiotics but i may have to. so now i have to look into what will be the strongest probiotics to take and some alternative remedies to prevent TB.

thanks, pretty

[[IG...]]

Bump

[[pr...]]

igo2God,

thanks for bumping up this posts. i wanted to share that i've been spending many hours reading the articles on Ray Peats website. i really like a lot of what he has to say. and while i understand that not everyone may be into his findings.

in reading Peat's articles, it has led me to other's who are also into his idea's. and they told me to read some articles by Dr. Guy Shenker. Dr. Shemker has the same view about the PUFA's as Peat.

 

i will be purchasing both of Ray Peat's books from his website soon. he is definitely a proponet of natural progesterone.

so i decided to purchse some of Dr. Peat's formula of natural progesterone. i haven't tried it yet because i am kinda afraid that it could possibly put me into a wave. but i will try it as i wean and taper myself off of the bio-identical's of prometrium and vivelle dot which is an estridiol patch. and then i will let people know how it is to use a 100% natural bio-identical progesterone.

it just maybe different that the other progesterone's which are mostly made from the wild yam.

and Peat's is made from cholesterol and has Vitamin E in it. so i will be back to let this post know how it is. and keep in mind i am recovering from bad brain happenings from a bad cold turkey.

 

tonight a lot of the dp/dr has lifted. which is good but has put me in a very vulnerable and fragile emotional state and i had a good cry about very scary things. things that i have to do in my life that i never could take responsibility before being on the benzo's. i still pray for full windows.

pretty

[[ho...]]

I am having a really tough time.  The wave that started 12/13 is not letting up much.  I've had a couple decent days in the past week but mostly in hell - every day the same thing - dizziness, dp/dr, fatigue.  I am beginning to get depressed. 

 

I've posted about this in a couple of places.  I thought I'd try here to get some advice --

 

Should I updose my progesterone or continue to hold?

 

This is how I've tapered my bioHRT so far:

 

Testosterone wean: 5/5/12 - 5/21/12 (quick and easy this was the last one I went on and so the first one I went off) - No problems

 

Estradial wean: 5/9/12 - 10/25/12 (I took this one very slowly as I thought it probably was the one that helped most with hot flashes and night sweats; although it is hard to tell in wd as many guys also report these sx)  - my baseline stayed fairly stable at 7ish during this wean; I don't think I had any wd sx related to weaning off estradial.

 

Progesterone wean:  Started at 10 mg/day. 

July - started once a week drop to 5 mg/day (other 6 days were 10 mg/day) and kept this up for 1 month. 

August  - 5 mg twice a week  - 10 mg other 5 days

September and October - 1 day 5 then 2 days 10 then 1 day 5 then 3 days 10 etc  (held here to be sure to be OK for daughter's wedding) -- no problems so far -- very low dose...

First 2 weeks of November - every other day 5 mg - 10 mg

Last 2 weeks of November - two days at 5 mg and one day at 10 mg

11/5/12 started every day 5 mg and this is my current dose. 

 

I started this wave 19 days after dropping to 5 mg daily.  The prescriber told me it takes 14 days for these bioids to clear your system.  So now I'm thinking that the drop to 5 mg/day might have been too quick and this caused the wave???!!!    I don't have any other explanation except SH*T happens in wd!! 

[[pr...]]

hope,

are you trying to taper off your progesterone completely? it is possible that the drop to 5 mg. could have caused the wave.

although not sure after reading a lot of other posts about a lot of people on here men and women getting slammed with a wave all of a sudden and so did i. for awhile now.

 

i too have tapered from both my estradial and prometrium. i am only on .5 of the estradial and completely off the prometrium. although i did start that Dr. Ray Peat's progest+E/ only about 3 mg. per night. and i am not sure if that is keeping me in the wave i've been in? i am waiting for my period then i won't take it for 2 weeks. but it is a different kind of bio-itendical and considered the only true progesterone out there from all that i've researched so far.

 

what kind of bio-identicals are you on and tapering from? i'm sure you will be able to get some answers on here soon. and sorry i could not be much of a help--i am kinda doing what you are doing and i just don't know?

pretty

[[pr...]]

hi hope,

i was reading the other thread with Pers and ihope but i feel i am not equip to get in on that discussion.

but since i have been doing a ton of research about progesterone. and i too have been tapering from both my estradiol and prometrieum. i also started a new and different progesterone that is dissolved in Vitamin E.

well, i have been reading about Dr. Ray Peat and all is article and all that he says about progesterone is so amazing! i never want to be without. and i am not sure i even need yet? but when i read that progesterone heals brain injury and everything else i started using his progest+E.

 

actually i do think that your tapering down to that last .5 could very well have started the wave. and i also think the kind of progesterone definitely matters. even though i still am unsure if i should be on it during a benzo w/d--i am still using a little while i taper from the other bio's. it could very well be keeping me in the wave i am in, but i am using it anyway. i want my brain to get use to it i guess. especially because the one i am using is a very pure progesterone. i am still experimenting and keeping close track to all my symptoms. and this one hasn't sent me over the edge type of wave. i know it's still from benzo's w/d.

 

anyway, sorry i can't be much of a help but here are a few articles about progesterone that are well worth reading and may help you.

pretty

 

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/three-hormones.shtml

 

http://www.willim1.com/95_mbrazel.htm

[[ho...]]

Hi Pretty,

Thank you for your reply and the links.  I had read some Ray Peat before and his theories are very interesting.  I'll read through all of what you send.  Thanks.

 

I did updose last night as I continued to feel so badly and it wasn't letting up as other waves have.

So now I need to decide how much to updose.  I'll think about it today and decide tonight if I do 5 or 10.  Unfortunately the compound that I'm on doesn't allow for less than 5 mg "drop".  I was thinking that maybe I could put the stuff in a microsyringe...  I just don't know at this point. 

 

I had gotten myself slowly down to 30 mg/week.  When I look back on my best months 9 and 11; I was on 65 mg/week in month 9 and 60 mg/week in month 11...  so maybe I'll bump myself back to the 60/week and see how I feel.

 

My biggest concern in doing this is the cross tolerance and what if I'm negatively impacting my "healing"..... just don't know what is best and of course, no dr understands. 

 

Anyway -- thanks again for your thoughtful reply to my question. 

XOX

[[pr...]]

Hi Hope,

 

that is my biggest concern too so i asked Dr. Peat about it.

 

i got Dr. Peat's email address from a Naturapath who sells his progest+E (progesterone) and i asked him about progesterone and benzo withdrawal. this is what he said for now. i also asked him about the PUFA's so here is his note back to me:

 

"The saturated fats of milk, butter, and coconut oil are protective, and the vitamins A and D of cod liver oil are present in milk, eggs, and liver, though in the winter it's helpful to use a vitamin supplement. Progesterone and pregnenolone do act on the GABA receptors, to protect against stress.

People have used progesterone to help adjust to withdrawal from various things. It's important to consider you thyroid status, especially when recuperating or adapting to stresses"

 

it's still too vague so i sent him a more detailed note about benzo's and the down/regulation of the Gaba and access Glutamate. i told him that a lot of women complained of going into another bad "wave" of benzo withdrawal. so i am waiting for his reply.

would you like me to share it with you when he replies? i hope he does. i am really confused about all of this too. i love everything he says and that other article i sent to you about progesterone. it basically says it heals brain injury, protects against cancers and helps to balance all the hormones. so i really do want to continue to take it and i really want it to work for me and not against. i am in a bad wave myself and i don't know if it's the very little amount i am using?

i am tired of this hit and miss, trial and error with progesterone and i too am still tapering from estridiol patch.

 

i don't know what kind of progesterone you are on but i did read where Peat said that the wild yam/disogin is toxic. so i have to wonder if it's really a toxin, of course it's going to mess with the brain and body. that's why i started Peat's progesterone, because i had read and heard from about 3 Naturapath's and some other practitioner's that it's the only real form of progesterone. i do like Peat's idea's but i am still researching them. i asked him if i could get his book from him. it's called "From PMS to Menopause" and supposed to be very helpful. i am still early 40's but i didn't know what is withdrawal and my cycle did get a little weird.

 

are you wanting to get off the progesterone entirely? see, i really would like to take a lot more than i am after reading all the good things it does. and only take progesterone. according to Peat and the other article, progesterone works on the Gaba to combat stress so i am wondering if i should take more? then i hear the horror "wave" stories. i don't know what to do either?

 

i hope we both can find the answers we need about this.

 

pretty

 

 

 

 

[[ho...]]

Oh Pretty -- thank you for sharing your communications with Peat -- yes please continue to post whatever you get from him here.

 

Like you I am baffled about what to do regarding the progesterone.  I need to find out from the compounding pharmacy what kind of progesterone is in my formula.  I'll let you know.

 

I've taken 10 mg for two nights in a row (up from the 5mg/night I was taking the past 6 weeks).  I'm going to stay at 10/night now and see what happens.  Crap shot

 

I'm 56; my last period was over 2 years ago, so we are at different points in our reproductive life cycles; but let's do keep in touch on this topic. 

 

(((((HUGS)))))

[[ho...]]

Sorry - I didn't answer your questions about wanting to get off progesterone entirely....  When I read the research the Perserverance posted I felt that I should taper off of it as it is cross tolerant and was worried that I was hurting my healing by being on it. 

 

There is so much conflicting research it is very hard to know what to do.

 

I know this -- right now I'm not functional.  It's been 20+ days of bed, computer, couch, bed, etc...  If the updose of prog gets me able to live at 60 - 80% again I'll stay on it for a few more months before trying to taper it. 

[[ho...]]

i don't know what kind of progesterone you are on but i did read where Peat said that the wild yam/disogin is toxic. so i have to wonder if it's really a toxin, of course it's going to mess with the brain and body. that's why i started Peat's progesterone, because i had read and heard from about 3 Naturapath's and some other practitioner's that it's the only real form of progesterone. i do like Peat's idea's but i am still researching them. i asked him if i could get his book from him. it's called "From PMS to Menopause" and supposed to be very helpful. i am still early 40's but i didn't know what is withdrawal and my cycle did get a little weird.

 

Hi Pretty -- So I called the compounding pharmacy and they said wild yams!  I need to call back on Monday to talk to the top guy and get the whole story...

 

I did a little web search and came up with info from Web MD and Dr. Lee:

 

http://www.webmd.com/menopause/guide/menopause-wild-yam-and-progesterone-creams-topic-overview

Wild yam. Although wild yam cream is marketed as a source of natural progesterone, it does not contain progesterone, and the body cannot convert it into progesterone.

 

http://www.johnleemd.com/store/faqs_progest_crm.html

Q: What is progesterone made from?

 

A: The USP progesterone used for hormone replacement comes from plant fats and oils, usually a substance called diosgenin which is extracted from a very specific type of wild yam that grows in Mexico, or from soybeans. In the laboratory diosgenin is chemically synthesized into real human progesterone. The other human steroid hormones, including estrogen, testosterone, progesterone and the cortisones are also nearly always synthesized from diosgenin.

 

Some companies are trying to sell diosgenin, which they label "wild yam extract" as a medicine or supplement, claiming that the body will then convert it into hormones as needed. While we know this can be done in the laboratory, there is no evidence that this conversion takes place in the human body.

 

So I need to do some more research -- maybe the stuff I'm using isn't doing anything anyway!!!

 

 

[[pr...]]

hi hope,

 

i just read what Pers wrote to me when i asked her many questions some months ago. now i too am very concerned about using the progesterone. i have some more information from Peat. i hope i'm not bugging him as i sent him what Pers wrote. i told him that it was imperative for me to know if i should keep using the progesterone during this benzo w/d. i told him all about the Gaba down/regulation and access Glutamate, but i really think he is a very intelligent (scientist) kind of mind who has helped so many women. i went on to his forum and they all think he is the God of balancing hormones. of course there probably not in a benzo w/d. i also did read one of his article's where he says that wild yam/diosgen is indeed a toxin. that could possibly be one reason why it would cause a wave in a benzo w/d. just like most of the B-vitamins can cause waves. i actually have a liquid B complex that really and truly does not have one synthetic or toxin. although i am too scared to even try it.

 

i also experimented and i uped the dose of his progest+E to from 1mg. to 3mg. last night and when i went to bed, i was so calm and i fell right asleep. i've been better today then i was yesterday. i was in a terrible wave yesterday.

i know what it's like to be couch bound. my couch is my bed right now and i've been there literally since i c/t'd. it's been 9 months of couch all day long until the evening, computer, couch. i am getting really ansy. i have to try to get out. but my nervous system is still shaking, vibrating and tremoring to know end. i have to force myself.

 

so this is what he wrote to me:

 

 

"I think nutrition, with thyroid support as needed, is the best approach for restoring balance to the nerves. Progesterone affects many systems besides GABA, including serotonin, adrenaline, and prostaglandins, but there's some evidence that it could be protective in diazepam withdrawal. The antihistamine/antiserotonin drug cyproheptadine is a another thing that has countered GABAergic withdrawal"

 

Pharmacol Toxicol. 1996 Dec;79(6):331-3.

Progesterone modulation of diazepam withdrawal syndrome in mice.

Pesce ME, Acevedo X, Pinardi G, Miranda HF.

Department of Pharmacology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Chile, Santiago,

Chile.

The influence of progesterone and oestrogens on the benzodiazepine withdrawal

syndrome in mice was studied. The intraperitoneal administration of 15 mg/kg of

flumazenil induced a withdrawal syndrome in chronic diazepam-treated mice,

characterized by jerks, usually accompanied by tail lifts, and seizures. The

principal finding of the present work is that the intensity of diazepam

withdrawal syndrome was significantly reduced by acute administration of

progesterone as revealed by a low incidence of jerks and seizures. The action of

progesterone could be due to a modulatory role of the hormone on neuronal

activity as an anxiolytic agent. The modulatory activity of progesterone appears

to be related to changes in the pharmacological properties of benzodiazepine

receptors.

 

i don't understand the last two lines. about the action of progesterone could be due to a modulatory role of the hormone on neuronal activity as an anxiolytic agent--or the very last line?

 

his Progest+E is made with a cholestral i think. here is something about progesterone, wild yam:

 

Most progesterone creams contain less than 0.1% of progesterone, barely enough to be effective, except for mild female problems. Lab analysis of a cream called "Progest" shows that it contains less than 0.1% progesterone. Even true 3% progesterone creams are not enough for most women, which is why we recommend Dr. Peat's 10% progesterone dissolved in natural vitamin E. Most progesterone products are suspended in synthetic vitamin E or even worse, toxic oils, such as soybean or corn oils. Some have parabens and other toxic ingredients. Only dissolved progesterone is useable by the human body.

Warning: Progesterone and Wild Yam (Dioscorea) are not the same. Do not confuse progesterone with unaltered wild yam (dioscorea). The human body cannot convert wild yam to progesterone. The body makes progesterone only from cholesterol. The conversion of wild yam to natural progesterone must be done in a chemical factory. So all "progesterone" products labeled "wild yam" (underived) are bogus. Unaltered wild yam, in sufficient amounts, is toxic.

 

here is a woman who says his progest+E saved her life. on his forum

 

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227

 

i've also spoken to three Naturapath's who sell Peat's Progest+E and they all told me that it was a true, safe and natural bio-identical. maybe there truly is a difference? especially in a benzo w/d. i copied what he said on Pers blog so i am interested in seeing what she says about it.

 

again, i copied some things that she said for him so i will see what he says. i just used some right now and a little more than i normally do--i can really feel it calming me. instantly. but i am not sure if i should be using because of all the controversy about truly healing on this forum? but i am feeling calm right now. i really would like to know for sure? i wonder if Pers will understand that this is different from wild yams. and on Peat's site there are about three great articles about progesterone, wild yam, etc. i really hope we will both know what to do very soon and that we can both get off the couch.

pretty

 

 

 

 

[[ih...]]

Hi Pretty, it's great that you are being so proactive about trying to find the right answer for yourself.

 

GABA receptors are very complicated things, the more I read, the more it's clear there's so much to learn. I did know that the wild yam products were probably ineffective but had not read about potential tolerance to the progesterone byproducts, independently of benzos, until I followed up on Pers's research.

 

Now that I am menopausal, I am prepared to stay on bioidentical progesterone for the rest of my life, if necessary, so am less concerned about potential withdrawals on stopping but of course, every chemical you add to your body carries some risk but so does being driven crazy by hormone fluctuations.

 

It's a little more complex for you as not being menopausal, you have more of your natural hormones working for you.  Once you reach your mid 40s though, hormones can start to whack out a bit anyway, so it may not be entirely related to withdrawal.

 

I don't have an answer for you, except to say that if it were me & I was not having any bad fx from the progesterone, I would be inclined to keep using it until the worst of the withdrawals are done with.  Until someone does a study on progesterone use in benzo withdrawal, we are stuck with our best guess.

[[Su...]]

I have been reading this thread for some time now and I've looked up all the posted links. I am VERY interested in Peat's progesterone. My questions ares, where do I get it, and how do I know what dose to start at and when to adjust the dose? From what I've read, he does not encourage staying on it...that it should be a temporary thing.

 

Could you help me?

[[pr...]]

Hi Sunny,

 

i can help with those links. i have corresponding with Dr. Peat and excited that he got back to me.

i will paste another thing he wrote to me when i copied a few things from here about progesterone and some of our fears. i gave him a lot of information. some may not like what he wrote. i am really liking the progest+E although still unsure if it will be in the way of any benzo healing?

Sunny, did you see the links i sent to Hope about progesterone? okay here is what Peat said to me when i gave him the info on here of some people's concerns'.

 

"People writing on forums are often working in a world of ideas extracted from the medical culture, and the problem is that the medical culture is full of lots of confused, fragmentary, and unfounded ideas"

 

and here is what he wrote about using the progesterone:

 

I think nutrition, with thyroid support as needed, is the best approach for restoring balance to the nerves. Progesterone affects many systems besides GABA, including serotonin, adrenaline, and prostaglandins, but there's some evidence that it could be protective in diazepam withdrawal. The antihistamine/antiserotonin drug cyproheptadine is a another thing that has countered GABAergic withdrawal.

 

Pharmacol Toxicol. 1996 Dec;79(6):331-3.

Progesterone modulation of diazepam withdrawal syndrome in mice.

Pesce ME, Acevedo X, Pinardi G, Miranda HF.

Department of Pharmacology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Chile, Santiago,

Chile.

The influence of progesterone and oestrogens on the benzodiazepine withdrawal

syndrome in mice was studied. The intraperitoneal administration of 15 mg/kg of

flumazenil induced a withdrawal syndrome in chronic diazepam-treated mice,

characterized by jerks, usually accompanied by tail lifts, and seizures. The

principal finding of the present work is that the intensity of diazepam

withdrawal syndrome was significantly reduced by acute administration of

progesterone as revealed by a low incidence of jerks and seizures. The action of

progesterone could be due to a modulatory role of the hormone on neuronal

activity as an anxiolytic agent. The modulatory activity of progesterone appears

to be related to changes in the pharmacological properties of benzodiazepine

receptors.

 

here are a few links of where you can get his Progest+E and also a detailed description of how to start and and take it although i did not do it this way for fear since i am still very early out.

 

http://www.longnaturalhealth.com/product/Dr-Peats-Progest-E-Complex-28-ml/PGE

 

Tim is a Naturopath and owner and i asked him ton's of questions about the progest+E

 

this is a detailed description of how to use it.

 

http://www.longnaturalhealth.com/sites/default/files/ProgestEInstructions.pdf

 

here is another link:

 

http://www.vitaminexpress.com/product_info.php/products_id/526

 

and this woman has a wonderful website and is a nutrionist who i will be having a consult with. she is Peat Inspired as they call it. i love her website!

 

http://blog.arkofwellness.com/progest-e-my-favorite-product/

 

here is a really great long article all about the benefits of natural progesterone. i have been using Peat's progest+E inserted vaginally and on my gums. i never read anything about him saying not to be on the progest+E or that it should be temporary. so i hope the instructions help you. i will have to re-read them.

 

http://www.willim1.com/95_mbrazel.htm

 

i am also writing to him along with a check to get his "From PMS to Menopause" book. i'm looking forward to reading it. the book is like $50.00 on Amazon and everywhere else. but if you send him a check it's only $12.00.

 

okay, i hope that helps. i know this is all trial and error. i am still researching Peat's ideas. i love most of what i read in his articles. i will be getting on his forum. i have read a little on his forum and the people on there think he is like a God for saving their lives and hormones. so thanks to a member on here who introduced me to him. although the whole PUFA does throw me off as i am so use to taking fish oil, cod liver oil and the like for brain and hormone health.

and lastly when i asked him about what i could take instead of the PUFA's he said:

 

"The saturated fats of milk, butter, and coconut oil are protective, and the vitamins A and D of cod liver oil are present in milk, eggs, and liver, though in the winter it's helpful to use a vitamin supplement. Progesterone and pregnenolone do act on the GABA receptors, to protect against stress.

People have used progesterone to help adjust to withdrawal from various things. It's important to consider you thyroid status, especially when recuperating or adapting to stresses"

 

i am still willing to do all the necessary research about this from all ideas. hope this helps! ~ pretty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.longnaturalhealth.com/sites/default/files/ProgestEInstructions.pdf

[[ho...]]

Good Morning Pretty -- continues to be an interesting discussion.  Thank you for all your input!

When I get some time I'm going to research what Weil, Marcola, Lee, etc have to say about progesterone.

 

Do you know what Peat meant by "thyroid support"?

 

I think nutrition, with thyroid support as needed, is the best approach for restoring balance to the nerves.

[[Su...]]

Thank you prettydaisys....good information there!

 

How many drops do you take per day? And do you take it from mid-cycle to menses?

 

I have read a lot about his advice about thyroid support, and although I completely agree, every time I try to do anything natural w/my thyroid, I started getting all anxious and can't sleep. I've tried some of the best natural thyroid support supplements/regiments there are. I see a naturopath and he finally told me that he just doesn't think I can tolerate it well.

 

I plan to talk to him about Ray Peat's progesterone. He uses a sublingual progesterone called ProgonB I think, but he's open to anything if it's proven to him that it works and is healthy. I'm anxious to hear what he has to say about Peat's formula.

 

I'm gonna continue to watch this thread as it is VERY interesting!

[[...]]

Hi, gals...

I'm on the forum supporting my hub. I've never taken a benzo but I am going through progesterone withdrawal which is very similar to benzo withdrawal. It helped me get through the extreme stress of my hub's cold turkey but I neglected to educate myself first. Now that I have looked into it, I've learned that almost all the hormones work on a negative feedback system and using exogenous hormones will suppress the HPA axis...sound familiar?  My experience is much like the example that the second link I'm giving describes. These 2 links have been the most helpful to me...

http://www.naturdoctor.com/Chapters/Articles/HRT_Problems.html

 

http://robdaquila.com/2010/02/03/unwanted-side-effects-of-bioidentical-hormone-replacement-therapy/

 

Hope this adds to everyone's understanding. It's a very complicated thing. I don't even begin to claim to understand it all. I only know that I would've gone looking for help in another direction if I hadn't already seen the same sx in my hub. Mine aren't as severe tho...but are as varied as his...and are slowly improving with good diet & time alone.

 

My hub is 3 years off just on the 4th and doing really well...better than me! So it does get better with time.

 

puffin (BW's wife)

 

[[ho...]]

Hi, gals...

I'm on the forum supporting my hub. I've never taken a benzo but I am going through progesterone withdrawal which is very similar to benzo withdrawal. It helped me get through the extreme stress of my hub's cold turkey but I neglected to educate myself first. Now that I have looked into it, I've learned that almost all the hormones work on a negative feedback system and using exogenous hormones will suppress the HPA axis...sound familiar?  My experience is much like the example that the second link I'm giving describes. These 2 links have been the most helpful to me...

http://www.naturdoctor.com/Chapters/Articles/HRT_Problems.html

 

http://robdaquila.com/2010/02/03/unwanted-side-effects-of-bioidentical-hormone-replacement-therapy/

 

Hope this adds to everyone's understanding. It's a very complicated thing. I don't even begin to claim to understand it all. I only know that I would've gone looking for help in another direction if I hadn't already seen the same sx in my hub. Mine aren't as severe tho...but are as varied as his...and are slowly improving with good diet & time alone.

 

My hub is 3 years off just on the 4th and doing really well...better than me! So it does get better with time.

 

puffin (BW's wife)

 

WOW  -- I'm glad you stopped by to share your story!!  I'll read through the links -- thank you for them.

 

Congratulations on your hub's 3 years off --

 

I have some questions if you don't mind:  when did your husband start to feel better?  Does he consider himself healed?

 

Why did you go on progesterone?  What type and how much where you on?  Did you taper?  How long have you been off?

 

Sorry for so many questions -- This is so relevant to me right now.  I'm so sad that I had to updose, I thought I was coming off slow enough but now will have to start all over

 

 

[[...]]

Hope56,

He didn't see significant improvement until 26 months. But...he was cold-turkeyed at an amino acid clinic and was given other stuff which probably made things worse...then we way over-did the supplements for the first 6 months...and cold turkeyed all of them...he was put on ativan after a reaction to albuterol, which was severe in itself...so it might not be a good idea to compare to him. Maybe just the things not to do, I guess. But, even so, he is living a normal life now. He doesn't claim 100% healing yet. I'm waiting for him to update his sx and I plan to post the update on the Family Blog. None of it is visible and he doesn't complain so that shows how good it is. He was in bad shape for a long time so there is hope for everyone.

 

I had used OTC progesterone creams off and on for perimenopausal sx for years...insomnia, irritability, depression...never seemed to help. When this crisis suddenly came upon us, our acupuncturist/nutritionist suggested that I keep using it and also Phyto B which is a plant version of estrogen/progesterone. It all helped a lot. It got me through over 2 years of extreme stress...but I was always concerned about the estrogen...it gave me breast tenderness, which I never had before...so I would try not to take it all sometimes...nothing was ever regular just using as needed. But as the hub got better, I seemed to get worse...more insomnia, depression, irritability, anxiety, restless legs. So I just stopped it all. I thought I wouldn't need it anymore since the hell mornings were over. Soon after, I began having tingling toes, numbness, inner trembling, nausea, rage, worse restless legs, agitation, boaty feeling...not all at once, so it wasn't obviously from stopping. And the weird sx, like boaty feeling, were very brief. If I wasn't benzo-wise, I probably would've just been perplexed but then forgotten about it. The rage and agitation are the big ones. They're much improved but still get worse during PMS time. ...i'm not sure how long it's been since I stopped because I wasn't really paying attention...his last bad episode was in March and I know it was before that so it's been almost a year. I couldn't stay away from the caffeine and sugar during the holidays and things got worse...depression and fatigue mostly...but am now on day 2 of caffeine/sugar cold turkey...hoping to leave all this misery completely behind in the coming year. ...one good thing about it is that the hub is very supportive of me now that he understands what it's like...it's a little comfort anyway.

 

Hope I answered everything. I'm not very good at typing on a touch-screen with the auto correct and all.

 

puffin

[[ho...]]

Hope56,

He didn't see significant improvement until 26 months. But...he was cold-turkeyed at an amino acid clinic and was given other stuff which probably made things worse...then we way over-did the supplements for the first 6 months...and cold turkeyed all of them...he was put on ativan after a reaction to albuterol, which was severe in itself...so it might not be a good idea to compare to him. Maybe just the things not to do, I guess. But, even so, he is living a normal life now. He doesn't claim 100% healing yet. I'm waiting for him to update his sx and I plan to post the update on the Family Blog. None of it is visible and he doesn't complain so that shows how good it is. He was in bad shape for a long time so there is hope for everyone.

 

I had used OTC progesterone creams off and on for perimenopausal sx for years...insomnia, irritability, depression...never seemed to help. When this crisis suddenly came upon us, our acupuncturist/nutritionist suggested that I keep using it and also Phyto B which is a plant version of estrogen/progesterone. It all helped a lot. It got me through over 2 years of extreme stress...but I was always concerned about the estrogen...it gave me breast tenderness, which I never had before...so I would try not to take it all sometimes...nothing was ever regular just using as needed. But as the hub got better, I seemed to get worse...more insomnia, depression, irritability, anxiety, restless legs. So I just stopped it all. I thought I wouldn't need it anymore since the hell mornings were over. Soon after, I began having tingling toes, numbness, inner trembling, nausea, rage, worse restless legs, agitation, boaty feeling...not all at once, so it wasn't obviously from stopping. And the weird sx, like boaty feeling, were very brief. If I wasn't benzo-wise, I probably would've just been perplexed but then forgotten about it. The rage and agitation are the big ones. They're much improved but still get worse during PMS time. ...i'm not sure how long it's been since I stopped because I wasn't really paying attention...his last bad episode was in March and I know it was before that so it's been almost a year. I couldn't stay away from the caffeine and sugar during the holidays and things got worse...depression and fatigue mostly...but am now on day 2 of caffeine/sugar cold turkey...hoping to leave all this misery completely behind in the coming year. ...one good thing about it is that the hub is very supportive of me now that he understands what it's like...it's a little comfort anyway.

 

Hope I answered everything. I'm not very good at typing on a touch-screen with the auto correct and all.

 

puffin

 

Thanks Puffin -- I appreciate knowing your story and the update on BW -- amazing what these substances can do to us. 

If any silver lining it is the empathy we learn!

 

[[pr...]]

Puffin. now i am so confused!! i have that "rocking boat sensation" i wonder if that the same thing as your 'boaty feeling'? but i only 9 months from a really bad c/t. i don't think it has to do with progesterone.

 

i am so confused about all this progesterone stuff. here i am thinking i am doing the right thing by getting of the prometrium as i've been reading all of Dr. Ray Peat's articles about how wild yam is toxic so i got his progest+E because i heard so many good things about it. and now i don't know what to do? i will read the links you provided. i even  asked Peat about all of this. i am going to copy some of this other stuff from what you wrote and also from Perseverance's blog. i simply don't understand what all the "all hormones work on a negative feedback system and using exogenous hormones will suppress the HPA axis" what does all that mean? i've been reading so many good things about progesterone. i don't know what to do? i really want to use it for all the good things it's supposed to do. can i use it after i am healed from benzo withdrawal?

 

Sunny, i will answer your questions anyway.

Dr. Peat does say that before using progesterone to make sure you don't have a goiter. and he says the best thing to do for thyroid is:"A simple diet, based on milk and sweet, filtered orange juice, with some eggs and sea food (low fat, such as cod or oysters), with a daily raw carrot, salting food to taste, and always having something sweet with proteins, would be the basic protective thing.

he also says this about progesterone, i may have already posted this but here it is again for puffin:

" Progesterone affects many systems besides GABA, including serotonin, adrenaline, and prostaglandins, but there's some evidence that it could be protective in diazepam withdrawal. The antihistamine/antiserotonin drug cyproheptadine is a another thing that has countered GABAergic withdrawal"

 

Sunny, as far as how i've been taking Peat's progesterone, well, since i've been tapering from the prometrium which is a wild yam and which Peat considers a toxin. i have been using about 3 mg of his Progest+E inserted vaginally before bedtime. i haven't done it the way the directions say to because of how scared i am to even be on it while in a benzo withdrawal. but yes, i plan to use it mid-cycle to menses. i am early 40's but my cycle has been doing freaky things since i've been in tolerance w/d for 9 years. so about 3-4 years ago i got on vivelle dot estradiol patch and prometrium. i want to be off both and just be on Peat's Progest+E. now i don't know what to do? i've said that a million times--

 

--okay Girls, what exactly should i ask Dr. Peat about this and what exactly should i say to him about the benzo withdrawal? i already told him about the down/regulation of Gaba and access Glutamate. and when i did tell him that i am on a benzo withdrawal forum with some women who absolutely thought taking progesterone was not good he said this:

 

"People writing on forums are often working in a world of ideas extracted from the medical culture, and the problem is that the medical culture is full of lots of confused, fragmentary, and unfounded ideas"

 

so now i am really confused? it would help if i could give him the right intelligent thing so we can hear again what he might have to say. i really like a lot of his theories. again, i am still just researching all of this. what i am most scared about taking the progesterone is NOT being in a bad wave from progesterone but is it true that it could prevent healing from a benzo withdrawal? what should i do about taking his progesterone? i love all the good things progesterone is supposed to do especially heals brain injury which i have for sure after this c/t and doing about 8-9 c/t's from benzo's in my life. i can't believe what i did to myself! :'(

thanks, pretty

[[pr...]]

Hi Gals,

 

okay i read through the links that puffin gave. i am so glad i read that. now that negative feedback system makes more sense. so basically it's about the glands "going to sleep" and that totally makes sense. a Naturopath once said to me "we are as old as our glands".  but i guess i am still confused about Peat's progesterone? as i have read through most of his articles about it. and also the articles about estrogen. (i think, if i remember rightly)--he thinks everything bad about too much estrogen. i am not a total devotee' of Dr. Peat (yet) as i am still researching his ideas. but i like what i've read very much. and i plan to get his book "From PMS to Menopause" and i have also read though some people's posts on his forum who basically think he is a total lifesaver when it comes to helping women and their hormones.

 

and even though i have some years to have my cycle. it did get interrupted by all this benzo tolerance w/d. plus i've been wanting to know how to keep my hormones "plump & healthy" since i was 19 years old--not kidding--i don't know where that comes from? i've always been into the skin, hormones and anti-aging. that's why i became an Esthetician. so, i would love to know what kind of questions i can pose to Dr. Peat and really find out if his progesterone is worth taking for the long haul.

i don't mind being on only a progesterone from the rest of my life if it's healthy and helping me like he says progesterone does.

thanks, pretty

[[ho...]]

 

i've also spoken to three Naturapath's who sell Peat's Progest+E and they all told me that it was a true, safe and natural bio-identical. maybe there truly is a difference? especially in a benzo w/d. i copied what he said on Pers blog so i am interested in seeing what she says about it.

 

 

Hi Pretty - I'm doing some more progesterone research this morning.  I found Peat's progesterone at this site:

http://www.arkofwellness.com/shop/product/kenogen-ray-peat-progest-e-complex/

Is this what you are using?

It looks like the bottle of compounded progesterone I'm on.  This Peat version is 3 mg/drop.  Mine is 5 mg/drop.  I wonder if it is the same mg/mg -- I'm thinking about crossing over to it as now I'm concerned about not only the wild yam/disogin, but also the propylene glycol that the pharmacy uses to mix the compound!

 

What a mess!!

[[ho...]]

 

--okay Girls, what exactly should i ask Dr. Peat about this and what exactly should i say to him about the benzo withdrawal? i already told him about the down/regulation of Gaba and access Glutamate. and when i did tell him that i am on a benzo withdrawal forum with some women who absolutely thought taking progesterone was not good he said this:

 

"People writing on forums are often working in a world of ideas extracted from the medical culture, and the problem is that the medical culture is full of lots of confused, fragmentary, and unfounded ideas"

 

I think our basic question is:

We understand that progesterone is cross tolerance with benzodiazapines.  As we are in benzo withdrawal we do not want to do anything to negatively impact the up regulation of our GABA systems. 

Will taking progesterone negatively impact our symptoms and healing timeline?