My Ambiem withdrawal

[[Pa...]]

Hello Headspace,

 

Are you going to wait until you see your Dr to begin your taper?  Have you figured out where you want to cut your doses?  I'd advise you to not cut your Lorazepam for now.  Let us know if we can provide you with more information to help your Dr understand this process a little better, we've amassed a great deal of information about this process.

[[Mo...]]

Yes, one way or another, you can get off this and heal!! 

 

When I say front load, what I mean is to take the equivalent dose of the longer acting benzo and add it for a few days before dropping the shorter acting medication equivalent.....so for a few days, you will be taking both at the same time.  This allows the longer acting medication to build up in your system some, since the half life is so long - that way, when you drop the shorter acting medication, you don't have as severe of withdrawals because the other medication is already on board to cover it somewhat.

[[He...]]

Hi Pamster, my taper has already begun since 18th dec 2019 where I was using more than 500mgs Of ambien per day.

 

But I do go in weekly to see the pdoc and he mostly decides where and how much to cut.

 

Right now I haven’t been able to figure that out on my own, would you have any advice? Also with the lorazepam, I’ve only been on it for about a week and I’m terribly afraid that tolerance and addiction will build up with it, then it would only compound the problem as there would be one more Benzo to withdraw from.

 

@Momo thank you for explaining what front loading means. It sure makes a lot of sense I’ll be sure to discuss this with the pdoc when I go in on Wednesday.

 

[[Pa...]]

I didn't realize the Lorazepam was new, I agree, you've got enough problems and in my experience the benzo is the more difficult to heal from.  I'd get off of it sooner rather than later. 

 

I'm happy to see you've been reducing your dose for awhile now, this shows me you're committed to getting your life back and you will.  If your Dr has been directing your taper thus far, it seems logical to let him keep it doing it.  Are you not satisfied with the plan he's got you on?

[[Mo...]]

Headspace,

Just to give you some perspective, there have been a couple of people on the FB group I'm in that were up to 200-240 mg of Valium per day (!!!) and they tapered and while far from easy, they are now healed.  I think withdrawals can be bad for people in tolerance from small doses just as much from high.....that's just my observation.  The unpredictability of benzos, at least, is high.  Best wishes. 

[[He...]]

Hi Pamster, it’s not that I’m not satisfied with the plan he has got me on. It’s just that there is no fixed concrete plan.

 

It’s very fluid and changes from week to week. Where he wants to cut, by how much.

 

Thus I was hoping a more concrete solution would be available here. I’m open to seeking ALL advice, especially from people as knowledgeable as you guys.

 

@Momo, 200-240mg of Valium is roughly 400-480mg of ambien correct?

 

I just wish my body was more tolerable to Valium, it just seems to reject the Valium in favor of the ambien in a simple substation.

 

Which is why I’ll talk over front loading with my pdoc when I next see him on wed.

[[Pa...]]

Tapers need to adapt to us as we get lower in dose, so changes and adjustments will happen as long as the overall trend is down.  If you're accurately reporting your symptoms and progress to your Dr then you should be on the same page with your taper.  For a taper to be ideal, it needs to be patient driven.  But in your case with your Dr working to get you off of this high dose, I can see that you probably have to go by what he says in order to continue to get the high doses you're currently on.  He's probably at risk for continuing to prescribe this high dose, even though he was not part in your getting to this point. 

 

I know its probably frustrating to not be in control of this process, but he sounds responsible and is keeping your best interest and his own in mind.  Am I reading this correctly?

[[He...]]

Dear Pamster,

Yes I have to agree that my doctor is responsible and keeping my best interests in mind in that he is continually looking for ways to taper the dosage.

 

But he also will listen to any ideas or suggestions that I bring to him this I approached this board.

[[Pa...]]

I think what I'm hearing from you is, you'd like to have some input into this process and if that's the case, then I don't blame you a bit.  This is a horrifying and painful process and we feel powerless, so it's only natural you'd want to have a say in it.

 

Why don't you draw up a plan for this weeks visit and present it to him, take some of your power back. 

 

It could look like what I suggested a few posts back:

 

8:00 am  30 mg

12:00 pm 40 mg

3:00 pm  25 mg  1 mg Lorazepam

7:00 pm  110 mg

1:00 am  80 mg  1 mg Lorazepam

 

Why don't you choose which doses you can afford to cut, and by how much.

 

Also, I feel its important to discuss the Lorazepam, your short use of it and the fact that you don't feel it's helpful suggests you might want to get off of it sooner rather than later. 

[[He...]]

Dear Pamster just completed my visit with the pdoc.

 

He assured me that the Ativan at the dosage he’s giving me (1mg twice a day) won’t get me “hooked” and he is confident he can get me off the drug.

 

Also, he wasn’t in favor of front loading the Valium as he explained that he felt the fluctuations in dosage would be too erratic. 

 

He wants my current plan to be status quo until Sunday, where this new plan will kick in:

 

8am - 30mg ambien

12pm - 30 mg ambien

3pm - 40mg ambien, 1 lorazepam

7pm - 90mg ambien, 50mg Valdoxan, 150mg diphenhydramine

1am - 80 mg ambien, 1 lorazepam

 

In total that will be 30mg less of ambien, admittedly it scares and worries me but I won’t k ow till I’ve given it a try.

 

Does the above make sense to you?

[[Pa...]]

I think it makes a lot of sense Headspace, and as I thought I saw oregonkatz say, there may be unpleasant times ahead but this is what it takes to be rid of this drug.  Accept that you're going to feel jittery and anxious, accept that sleep is not going to come and if it does, you're going to have some pretty nasty dreams.  But this is the price we pay for the pills we took, its awful but the only way out is through.  And I have to tell you, once the drug is gone, the darkness will lift and it's wonderful when it does. 

 

The only problem I have with your Dr is this: "He assured me that the Ativan at the dosage he’s giving me (1mg twice a day) won’t get me “hooked” and he is confident he can get me off the drug."   If I've read this once, I've read it a hundred times, members were assured by their Dr's that this wouldn't happen to them and guess what, it did!  Okay, I'm done ranting, but seriously, you need to talk to him about this, if its not a big deal, then why are you on it? 

[[He...]]

Dear Pamster, the doc says that it’s to smoothen out the jitters and anxiety and to use it to go back to sleep.

 

For me the toughest time is 3pm-7pm. For some reason this is the timing where I really have to fight the darkness in order to reach my night time dose at 7pm. I guess that’s why he’s adding the lorazepam at 3pm.

 

Should I start tapering it off myself?

[[Pa...]]

Your Dr is great, really, and I'm glad he's taken you on as a patient, I'm sure many others wouldn't have, so kudos to him.  However, I fail to see the wisdom of prescribing an addictive and dangerous drug to aid in getting off of another addictive and dangerous drug!  Okay, so as you can see, I've got a problem with this, especially since for me, recovering from the benzo was a hundred times more painful and 14 months longer than getting off of the Ambien.  Granted, I did both cold turkey but that should tell you, at least in my case, I'm comparing apples to apples. 

 

It sounds to me as if the 3:00 pm dose of Lorazepam isn't helping you, its very fast acting and every day you're on the Lorazepam is another day your body is gaining a dependence on it.  I know your thoughts, keep telling yourself they're a symptom, they aren't you, they aren't your life, they're a product of your determination to be free of this drug.  Hold on, you can do this. 

 

I can't tell you to taper from the Lorazepam, that would be irresponsible on my part and against our forum policy of not being prescriptive, the most I can do is point out the questionable advice you're being given.

 

 

 

[[Ne...]]

Pamster- ditto

That's why we're all here...Benzo's are very addicting !

[[He...]]

Hi Pamster, reading your posts are so encouraging.

 

It’s like you know my thoughts and exactly how I feel. It’s a constant battle. Everyday, every waking hour.

 

I will keep on telling myself to hold on and that this is just a symptom.

 

With regards to the lorazepam, I’ve decided to stop taking them today. I know it’s cold turkey but I’ve only been on it for a week at 2mgs per day so I pray hard that it is doable.

[[Pa...]]

I know 2 mg of Lorazepam doesn't seem like a lot given your total dose of Ambien, but it's a powerful benzo, so not sure cold turkey is a good idea.  You risk escalating your symptoms by doing this and you risk being on the drug longer if you taper, neither choice is ideal.

 

I'm a little unclear, when you make your Ambien reductions, how long are you holding between cuts?  Is is each week when you see your Dr?

 

Oh and as for knowing your thoughts, I know them because they aren't your thoughts, they're Ambiens thoughts, mine were exactly the same as yours, produced by the drug.  That warning on the drug information you're supposed to read when you pick up your prescriptions tells the truth, this drug produces these thoughts, it's a manufactured message implanted in your brain by the drug.  Does this make you angry?  I hope it does because this is a battle between you and a pill, and you can't let the pill win.  How ridiculous is that, to let a tiny little white pill have this kind of power?

[[He...]]

Dear Pamster, I’m on day 2 of cold turkeying the lorazepam, and God willing, nothing bad has happened so far.

 

Yes I see my pdoc every week and the ambien reductions are about a week apart.

 

I’m facing constant anxiety spikes which are terrifying. You know the feeling of one second you’re fast asleep and the moment you turn in bed and wake up just a little, you can feel your heart slamming into your chest.

 

The rest of the day is spent twitching, looking at the clock to count down to my next dose and using every inch of willpower not to give this whole exercise up.

 

You’re right about ambien being just a small white pill but the control it wields over me is frightening.

 

I’m exhausted fighting this and not looking forward to the next cut on Sunday.

 

 

[[He...]]

The anxiety is becoming overwhelming. I’m not sure how long more I can hold on for.

 

Someone please help!

[[Pa...]]

I hear you, I know this nightmare well, but this is your only choice, you have to go through it to get out, there is no shortcut.  You got you here and you're the only one who has the power to get you out. 

 

Life is going to be so good when you get through this, you'll remember always what this felt like and life will take on a new meaning, because when you survive this, life is so sweet.  You'll never take peace for granted again.

 

Hold on, you can do this.

 

 

[[He...]]

Thanks Pamster, your words give me so much hope for the future and I hate to say this but I’m not sure how long more I can hang on.

 

Today was a particularly bad day, exhaustion, lack of concentration, panic attacks, jitters, the works.

 

I want to see the happiness you see after I get out of this trust me but today nearly broke me.

 

Do you think it’s the lorazepam withdrawal?

 

I called my pdoc and he said I wasn’t on it long enough to have a withdrawal.

[[Pa...]]

Here is what I've seen since I've been on this forum and I joined in 2008, so that's a long time to observe how this works.  Your central nervous system is in overdrive right now, it's highly sensitive to everything, including Lorazepam.  If some guy down the street took Lorazepam for a couple of weeks and quit, probably not a big deal.  But you, given what you're dealing with right now, removing the Lorazepam is like pouring starter fluid into a carburetor, not spayed on, but poured. 

 

We're so sensitive during this process, food, drink, other medications, supplements, alcohol, we can't predict how we're going to react to any of these things, so I absolutely feel that you're withdrawing from the Lorazepam.  But I don't know if reinstating it is a good solution either because the end game is to be off of everything.  Only you know what you can take and this is your choice, we'll support you whatever you decide to do.  But if you do reinstate, there is no way you'll become stable given what you're going though with the Ambien, so I feel beginning your taper as quickly as possible would be wise.

 

Glad you're still talking to us, I worry.

 

[[br...]]

Hi Headspace,

 

I have been reading your thread with interest. To be honest I know very little about Ambien and tried to google it to find the equivalent in Valium. with no success but by the looks of it it is quite a large dose. If you read my signature you can see I was on quite a high dose of Xanax compared to most on this forum.

 

It seems like you have an understanding doctor and thats great as most doctors I know would just straight out refuse to prescribe this even knowing the dangers of sudden cessation. I would be put in the to hard basket for someone else to deal with.

 

I think its good you have dropped the Lorazepam if you where only using it for a short time , will probably save you from more withdrawal symptoms.

 

Im learning quite a lot reading this thread. I didnt realize there switching between the drugs for taper would cause problems. I also didn't know you could front load benzos as they are immediate acting so I thought this may cause you to double dose. I have only seen this used in medications that take weeks to built up in your blood like steroids.

 

If trying to switch to the Valium is taking to much of a toll perhaps it may be easier to just taper directly from the ambien.. it may save you the pain of weaning off 1 med and getting used to another,possibly adding to your stress but this is up to you. I went between Xanax and Valium when tapering and didnt feel much difference between the 2 although the equivalent Valium dose never seemed enough so I just stayed on what I knew well and that was Xanax.

 

I wasnt to strict with my taper and didnt have it planed as well as should have been. Some days going up in dose. I also didnt go to the  super micro tapers that some do on here as I didnt want to drag on what was an uncomfortable process for me. In saying this everyone is different. My anxiety was unbearable during taper to the point that I could barley function. I jumped off 1.5mg of Xanax and surprisingly my anxiety is less than when I was on it.

 

Keep us posted on your progress and all the best.

 

I just converted my usual does of Xanax to valium lol wow about 200mg. You can come off high doses. I am just over 3 weeks off now

 

Andrew

[[He...]]

Hi Pamster today was a deep dark hell. It’s 2.50am where I’m at. The anxiety was overwhelming and I had panic attacks to the point that I couldn’t respond to my mother.

 

I worry too. And I deeply appreciate your concern.

 

When you say to begin my taper do you mean the lorazepam (because I’m still on cold turkey for that) or the ambien?

 

Until now, I still can’t decide if I should reinstate or not. I called my pdoc and spoke to him on the phone, he said it was my choice and to just use it when needed. Didn’t help matters much. I don’t mean to be wishy wasn’t about this but my gut says to stop Loraz whereas my head says to trust my doc.

 

Hi breakthrough80 thanks so much for sharing your experience here. I was on Xanax a few years ago at a high dose, probably not as high as yours, and managed to kick it. I’m glad you’ve been able to get off the drug also, for me it was an equal struggle, just as difficult as the ambien now. I think the conversion for Valium to ambien is 10mg Valium equals 20mg ambien.

 

Someone with more knowledge could probably correct me if I’m wrong?

[[Pa...]]

I was talking about the possibility of you reinstating the Lorazepam, but if you're set on cold turkey, that point is moot.  When I was trying to figure out a crossover to Valium for you, I estimated you would need 180 mgs to crossover to, but we don't need to worry about that now, you're doing a direct taper now.

 

Interesting you were on Xanax in the past, most around here agree that this process gets tougher each time we do it, have you heard of the theory of kindling?

 

Your day sounds pretty dark, and I understand not having the ability to form words, even if we can think of the right words, our mouth can't seem to form them.  What does your mother know about what's happening with you?

 

 

[[He...]]

Hi Pamster she knows everything and has been very supportive of me through the whole process. She and my dad are there every single day to give me support.

 

Oh and I also edited my post above with regards to the Loraz (spoke to doc on the phone).

 

Lastly no I’ve never heard of kindling?