Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[Guest [...]]

I think he probably meant tapering 0.01 mg per day, which would take 100 days and is equivalent to 0.001 mg of Ativan.

 

I had a friend to this from 1.5 mg diazepam.

It was difficult, but she did it in 150 day.

 

I'm trying to do a DMT right now with Ativan and a small dose of Valium, tapering the Ativan first.

 

So far, i'm doing much better than I did two months ago.

 

I've been able to cut 0.024 in 2 weeks, when I had difficulty cutting anything before.

 

I'm trying to figure all of this out.

 

I don't think I would do well with a cut and hold method.

 

Didn't know that there was some things against DMT, I'll have to read that.

 

Winnie

[Guest [ba...]]

You might be right.  I think 0.010 mg per day is a bit aggressive, but not extremely so.  Half that would make more sense to me.

[[Ul...]]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have been doing a dry cut taper of Diazepam for  1 1/2 yrs. Things were going pretty good until Feb. when my cortisol shot way up. I have been trying to get that down and thought I was successful but then my body started with all kinds of horrible symptoms on 4/11 so I am considering switching to the micro tapering method. I have not tapered since mid February and I have .9mg of Diazepam left to go. When I posted more details on this in the Diazepam group, a few people thought that I am having withdrawal symptoms now and that I should hold longer before trying the DMT. 

 

Question #1 - I have read that the DMT will urge the brain to heal when it is stuck in this mode. Do you agree? My symptoms are not calming down at all (Insomnia, severe night sweats at midnight every night, temperature regulation, anxiety, tremors, etc.)

 

Question #2 - I have figured out the method for the DMT but am confused on how to best set my tapering rate. I was reducing 8% of the current total every two weeks on my previous taper. But I saw the suggested schedule for 1 mg Diazepam was to reduce .001mg every day, which would take 100 days. That seems like it would be reducing 33% per month wouldn't it?

 

I'm not sure how much you should taper each week or month, but I'd start too low with the ability to speed up, rather than going too fast and then be in a rough spot having to "catch up" or slow down. I was kind of an extreme case, but I started at 10% per month, but quickly decreased that number. After I found something that worked I just simply did a symptoms-based taper from there. I wasn't concerned so much with the percentage rate as I was with how I felt and what worked best for me. That process was a total game changer for me. It seems like it may be best to hold where you are currently to at least get some sense of normalcy before moving on. If there's a ton of insomnia, sweats, etc, then maybe it's a sign from your body to chill for a while so it can heal a bit. Our best to you!

[[ki...]]

The other idea of a DMT is to be able to adjust your taper rate depending on your symptom intensity.  Unfortunately, diazepam has a long elimination half-life, so by the time you realized that your symptoms were getting nasty, you would have already likely made several more reductions.  So that part of the DMT approach doesn't work well for diazepam. 

 

Thank you, badsocref, for raising an important but too infrequently made point. Per Horowitz and Taylor (2019 - link below), one of the disadvantages of daily microtapering is that it presents the possibility of cumulative withdrawal effects being superimposed on one another. This makes it difficult to establish which reduction (or set of reductions) was responsible for the symptoms experienced.

 

Link:

https://www.mentalhealthexcellence.org/tapering-of-ssri-treatment-to-mitigate-withdrawal-symptoms/

 

So glad this was brought up. Diazepam’s long half-life is what got me in trouble during my previous taper and it still gets me sometimes when I get ahead of myself tapering. The very thing that is supposed to make diazepam “ideal” (I’m using this pretty loosely) can also make it quite tricky to taper with as well.

[[Ma...]]

Bad,

 

Aren’t you confusing mg with weight of the pill coming up with 900 days?  Shouldn’t the dry cut calculation be based on “weight” of the pill not mg? So the .9 mg should be converted to weight and then the reductions of .0010 per day would start at that amount. So if .9 mg was .162 in weight, and you reduced .0010 per day. Total days to get to zero would be 162 days not 2.5 years.

[Guest [ba...]]

Might be.  It sometimes gets confusing talking about pill weights versus drug weights.  I prefer to talk drug weights since pill weights can vary from one manufacturer to another.

[[He...]]

My wife has been tapering off 10mg Valium since March 2020.  She is now at 1.7 mg taking tablets (which have been cut down) in 2 doses (AM and PM) daily.  She had been reducing 5 to 6% every 2 to 3 weeks. She began taking the AM dose in 1/2 tablet and 1/2 liquid valium two weeks ago, trying to crossover to liquid for accuracy.  It is not going well at this point.    But she is still on 1.7 mg after 4 weeks. 

Where can we find how to micro taper with a suspension beginning at 1.7 mg Valium?  We seen the Benzo Brain video, but are having trouble converting her method to our quantities using 2 mg tablets.

Would appreciate any help.

Thank you

 

[[sl...]]

My wife has been tapering off 10mg Valium since March 2020.  She is now at 1.7 mg taking tablets (which have been cut down) in 2 doses (AM and PM) daily.  She had been reducing 5 to 6% every 2 to 3 weeks. She began taking the AM dose in 1/2 tablet and 1/2 liquid valium two weeks ago, trying to crossover to liquid for accuracy.  It is not going well at this point.    But she is still on 1.7 mg after 4 weeks. 

Where can we find how to micro taper with a suspension beginning at 1.7 mg Valium?  We seen the Benzo Brain video, but are having trouble converting her method to our quantities using 2 mg tablets.

Would appreciate any help.

Thank you

 

It sounds like you need two components to switch over to a daily micro taper.

1. A daily tapering schedule.

2. A liquid form that your wife can tolerate, or a dry tapering method that you feel comfortable performing.

 

The first component could be met with the website: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net

 

The second component is more complex. Could you clarify what you're trying to do? You mention a suspension of diazepam; are you talking about making this at home?

 

Help us help you. 

 

[[Ta...]]

Hi,  I started with cut and hold at 20 mg Diazapam.  When I got to 15 mg. I started doing the daily dry cut microtapering by shaving the pill and weighing.  It has been going ok with functional symptoms.  I'm almost to 12 mg and was considering moving to a water taper for these lower doses.  I have heard wonderful AND bad reviews of the daily water taper.  I would only water taper the one pill that I'm cutting and take the other pills in pill form (some water tapering and then taking the rest as pills).  What has been your experiences?  I have bought everything to water taper. 

 

FYI- I'm very sensitive to med changes.  I even have to stay with the same manufacturer. 

[[He...]]

Thank you, Slownsteady and TallGolfer.  Like TallGolfer, my wife is very sensitive to med changes.  We are trying to switch from tablet to liquid for the sake of accuracy.

She is currently at 1.7 mg/day in two doses.  4 Weeks ago she began taking 1/2 of her morning dose (1/2 of 0.85 mg) in a commercial liquid Valium (made by Roxanne Lab.) form.  She has not been able to stabilize after 4 or 5 weeks.  When she was only on tablets, it only took 2 to 3 weeks at the most, or sometime less.

Having viewed Benzo Brain's video on making a suspension in water, we are thinking that this might help.  However, the video uses a different dosage and frequency and we are not confident about converting it (we're old!).  If we can get her entirely on a homemade water suspension, then she might try micro tapering to get to a point where she can jump.

So we are looking for directions for a water suspension of 1.7 mg (divided into 2 doses daily) and perhaps a schedule to micro taper from there.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

[[Tr...]]

Helping husband - I don’t know the ins and outs of water tapering, but I just want to say - bless you for helping your wife. Every now and then I’m astounded *again* that this is the reality for so many of us. I’m a pharmacist in my mid 40s and this is more than I can handle many days.

 

Hoping badsocref can help get you going with the water taper.

I just wanted to voice some support for you in what you’re doing to help your wife.

❤️

 

Keep fighting the good fight my friend

 

 

[[sl...]]

I haven't watched the video in entirety, but I think the Benzo Brain video was for lorazepam, which I believe dissolves more readily in water. Diazepam may be a little different. I suggest considering what TallGolfer is thinking; just tapering one tablet (or even better 1/4 tablet) at a time seems to minimize the risks of liquid issues.

 

If I'd done a total liquid switch my first two attempts to DMT, I would have been ruined; both liquid formulas were problematic, the first extremely toxic to my brain and body, and the second was a dud, with barely any medicinal effect. These were both pharmacy compounded liquids. Luckily I was only using the liquid for 1/4 of one of my four tablets both times, and I eventually dropped the liquid making it into a cut-and-hold and recovered quickly.

 

I now use a technique I really like to DMT, it has minimized my symptoms, I never throw medicine away, I make my liquid medicine at home once a month and I only need to draw my one liquid dose with a syringe, take the rest of my dose(s) in tablets and that's it. It's as easy as possible for me.

 

I find daily water discard methods are a big hassle and waste medicine. They require roughly the same tools as making a concentrated liquid medicine, and require consuming the same or more alcohol than a concentrate. Just my two cents. I'd be willing to share more for anyone who wants to consider a homemade concentrate for a liquid/tablet hybrid DMT; it can be adapted to any tablet size and I know the numbers to make recipes for clonazepam and diazepam.

 

Take a look at http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationForm.php. See if you can make sense of it TallGolfer and HelpingHusband; this is the best form I've used for creating a daily micro taper with liquid (and optionally with tablets included).

[[Ul...]]

Thank you, Slownsteady and TallGolfer.  Like TallGolfer, my wife is very sensitive to med changes.  We are trying to switch from tablet to liquid for the sake of accuracy.

She is currently at 1.7 mg/day in two doses.  4 Weeks ago she began taking 1/2 of her morning dose (1/2 of 0.85 mg) in a commercial liquid Valium (made by Roxanne Lab.) form.  She has not been able to stabilize after 4 or 5 weeks.  When she was only on tablets, it only took 2 to 3 weeks at the most, or sometime less.

Having viewed Benzo Brain's video on making a suspension in water, we are thinking that this might help.  However, the video uses a different dosage and frequency and we are not confident about converting it (we're old!).  If we can get her entirely on a homemade water suspension, then she might try micro tapering to get to a point where she can jump.

So we are looking for directions for a water suspension of 1.7 mg (divided into 2 doses daily) and perhaps a schedule to micro taper from there.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

 

I'm probably the last person to offer any advice since I'm probably one of the most sensitive beings walking on this planet. I had to be super careful in my taper and be really mindful about needed holds, stress from my full-time work and wife's cancer etc., mixing agents and many other things. My initial research and interviews with people showed that water was a tough thing as far as being the mixing medium for the taper. I know that there are videos out there that say the opposite, but I think it just all depends on the uniqueness of everyone's situation and physiology. For me, I found it best to gradually move over to liquid from tablets using a very, very diluted solution of water and a tiny amount of high proof alcohol. I would typically use 2mL of the alcohol (vodka 100 proof) to dissolve the tablet along with 100mL of water or more. Very diluted. It took a bit for my body to get used to it, but I was careful and slow. Finally, I began tapering down based solely on sx. It was super handy to use liquid because I could make ridiculously small cuts as needed and especially near the end. It was a crazy journey with lots of life challenges along the way, but I made it and had my last dose last month. If water is best for you (your wife), then go for it and don't look back. I bet she'll get more stable here before long. There may be some other issue(s) along the way that's making this time especially difficult. It's all one big experiment. Blessings to you both! Jeff

[[Kt...]]

I’ve developed severe tolerance withdrawal to 5mg ambien and am considering crossing over to Valium because of the longer half-life. My idea was to cross over to liquid valium as I thought that would make micro-tapering easier. But reading the comments above, it seems that liquid valium is a problem? Is this the case? Should I move over to Valium tablets instead?

 

Thanks

 

Katie

[[Tr...]]

 

Hi Ktkat,

 

For some it's hard to switch over to liquid Valium. Others had no issues at all. Everyone 's different.

So it's up to you to decide.

I tried it with Vodka, because lquid Valium isn't available where I live. Vodka gave me a bad reaction. It felt like I was on fire inside. So I stopped after 2 weeks.

You might be ok with either one.

 

Good luck!

 

Trochsetter

 

 

[[Di...]]

Hi everyone,

I have been tapering .001 mg Ativan everyday for the past 10 days is this too fast?  Should I slow down or hold for a few days?  I don't want to go too fast and cause myself problems.  Thanks for any input.

[[Kt...]]

 

Hi Ktkat,

 

For some it's hard to switch over to liquid Valium. Others had no issues at all. Everyone 's different.

So it's up to you to decide.

I tried it with Vodka, because lquid Valium isn't available where I live. Vodka gave me a bad reaction. It felt like I was on fire inside. So I stopped after 2 weeks.

You might be ok with either one.

 

Good luck!

 

Trochsetter

 

Thanks for your reply. So the liquid isn’t necessarily more difficult to tolerate than the pills? Does it just vary from person to person? Or so people generally have more problems with the liquid?

[[sl...]]

Hi everyone,

I have been tapering .001 mg Ativan everyday for the past 10 days is this too fast?  Should I slow down or hold for a few days?  I don't want to go too fast and cause myself problems.  Thanks for any input.

 

I also suspect you'd know by now symptomatically if this was too fast for you. I envy that short-half life of lorazepam when it comes to feeling the effects of a reduction; my reductions don't really hit me in full for four or five days due to clonazepam's 30-40hr half life (I think this is about 3x slower than lorazepam).

 

At your current dose it looks like you're reducing by about 2.5%/14 days. This is quite safe in my opinion. Just keep in mind that a linear taper rate like this does slowly increase the percent taper rate, and at some point it may be too fast for you; this could be many months away, but again, your body knows best.

 

If you do start to lose functionality, then I suggest just holding until you recover, and resuming again. You could do reductions every other day at that point, or adapt your method for smaller reductions. Again, I think this issue is a ways away at this point as long as you're feeling good.

[[Di...]]

Hi everyone,

I have been tapering .001 mg Ativan everyday for the past 10 days is this too fast?  Should I slow down or hold for a few days?  I don't want to go too fast and cause myself problems.  Thanks for any input.

 

I also suspect you'd know by now symptomatically if this was too fast for you. I envy that short-half life of lorazepam when it comes to feeling the effects of a reduction; my reductions don't really hit me in full for four or five days due to clonazepam's 30-40hr half life (I think this is about 3x slower than lorazepam).

 

At your current dose it looks like you're reducing by about 2.5%/14 days. This is quite safe in my opinion. Just keep in mind that a linear taper rate like this does slowly increase the percent taper rate, and at some point it may be too fast for you; this could be many months away, but again, your body knows best.

 

If you do start to lose functionality, then I suggest just holding until you recover, and resuming again. You could do reductions every other day at that point, or adapt your method for smaller reductions. Again, I think this issue is a ways away at this point as long as you're feeling good.

 

Slownsteady thank you for your input.  I'm having symptoms but I think I'll always have some until this is over.  I'm actually doing a 3.25% reduction my numbers are a little off in my signature.  I tend to over think things so guess I am letting my brain look for trouble.  Also my doctor thinks my rate is too slow ugh!

I really appreciate your help. 

[[Ul...]]

Hi everyone,

I have been tapering .001 mg Ativan everyday for the past 10 days is this too fast?  Should I slow down or hold for a few days?  I don't want to go too fast and cause myself problems.  Thanks for any input.

 

I also suspect you'd know by now symptomatically if this was too fast for you. I envy that short-half life of lorazepam when it comes to feeling the effects of a reduction; my reductions don't really hit me in full for four or five days due to clonazepam's 30-40hr half life (I think this is about 3x slower than lorazepam).

 

At your current dose it looks like you're reducing by about 2.5%/14 days. This is quite safe in my opinion. Just keep in mind that a linear taper rate like this does slowly increase the percent taper rate, and at some point it may be too fast for you; this could be many months away, but again, your body knows best.

 

If you do start to lose functionality, then I suggest just holding until you recover, and resuming again. You could do reductions every other day at that point, or adapt your method for smaller reductions. Again, I think this issue is a ways away at this point as long as you're feeling good.

 

Slownsteady thank you for your input.  I'm having symptoms but I think I'll always have some until this is over.  I'm actually doing a 3.25% reduction my numbers are a little off in my signature.  I tend to over think things so guess I am letting my brain look for trouble.  Also my doctor thinks my rate is too slow ugh!

I really appreciate your help. 

 

Just do what "feels" right. Your gut feeling and intuition is better than anything a doctor has to say to you about your process or progress. I had sx all the way to the end too, but it all got significantly less at smaller doses and the same with the finish line. It's only been about 2 months since my last dose, but the psychological lift of getting completely off the last med (k) is/was super! Keep rockin'!!

[[Di...]]

Hi everyone,

I have been tapering .001 mg Ativan everyday for the past 10 days is this too fast?  Should I slow down or hold for a few days?  I don't want to go too fast and cause myself problems.  Thanks for any input.

 

I also suspect you'd know by now symptomatically if this was too fast for you. I envy that short-half life of lorazepam when it comes to feeling the effects of a reduction; my reductions don't really hit me in full for four or five days due to clonazepam's 30-40hr half life (I think this is about 3x slower than lorazepam).

 

At your current dose it looks like you're reducing by about 2.5%/14 days. This is quite safe in my opinion. Just keep in mind that a linear taper rate like this does slowly increase the percent taper rate, and at some point it may be too fast for you; this could be many months away, but again, your body knows best.

 

If you do start to lose functionality, then I suggest just holding until you recover, and resuming again. You could do reductions every other day at that point, or adapt your method for smaller reductions. Again, I think this issue is a ways away at this point as long as you're feeling good.

 

Slownsteady thank you for your input.  I'm having symptoms but I think I'll always have some until this is over.  I'm actually doing a 3.25% reduction my numbers are a little off in my signature.  I tend to over think things so guess I am letting my brain look for trouble.  Also my doctor thinks my rate is too slow ugh!

I really appreciate your help. 

 

Just do what "feels" right. Your gut feeling and intuition is better than anything a doctor has to say to you about your process or progress. I had sx all the way to the end too, but it all got significantly less at smaller doses and the same with the finish line. It's only been about 2 months since my last dose, but the psychological lift of getting completely off the last med (k) is/was super! Keep rockin'!!

 

Ultra thank you I sure hope it works  for me too!

Hugs

[[...]]

Good Morning All

 

I am wondering if I can get some help or support or opinions or experience please.

 

Has anyone started their Valium taper when not completely stable? I.e. having good and very bad days?

 

I am going up and down with symptoms following an updose from 3.5 to 6mg 9 weeks ago and am being told by a U.K. benzo support charity that I should start to taper even though not stable.

 

If you started from an unstable point I would love to hear from you.

 

Thank you.

 

Maa x

[[Ul...]]

Good Morning All

 

I am wondering if I can get some help or support or opinions or experience please.

 

Has anyone started their Valium taper when not completely stable? I.e. having good and very bad days?

 

I am going up and down with symptoms following an updose from 3.5 to 6mg 9 weeks ago and am being told by a U.K. benzo support charity that I should start to taper even though not stable.

 

If you started from an unstable point I would love to hear from you.

 

Thank you.

 

Maa x

 

My experience has been that most people are not stable when they first begin a taper, because if they felt stable, then most didn't see a need to taper in the first place. Maybe I've even forgotten what "stable" really is . I'd say to just start when you feel "stable enough" and then go from there, hold when needed, yada, yada, yada. I just had my last dose 2 months ago after a long 27 year relationship with Klonopin (and others), and I'd say that I'm still not "stable", but massively better than in the past. My best to you!

[[...]]

Thank you Ultra for responding 

 

Did you microtaper yourself and with liquid or scales?

 

Just trying to get my ducks linked up as much as possible.

 

Maa x

[[Ul...]]

Thank you Ultra for responding 

 

Did you microtaper yourself and with liquid or scales?

 

Just trying to get my ducks linked up as much as possible.

 

Maa x

 

Yep, I did a liquid microtaper which worked really well for me because I could have super small cuts throughout the process. There's no way I could've done that with a dry taper. I'm an outlier due to the high doses of K I was on as well as the length of time. I transitioned from tablet to liquid really slowly and then I tapered whenever I could based on sx at the time. You'll rock your own journey!!