Can't sleep all night - Please help!

[[8d...]]

Now back to what we were talking about... Insomnia!

 

Last night I felt exhausted going to bed. Thought I'd be able to catch some sleep without the Seroquel. No such luck

 

Was in bed for 2 hours, and finally gave up and took Seroquel.

 

I went with 1.5 pills last night, rather than two (50mg).

 

I slept but woke up in the morning before my alarm.

 

It's been 12 days since I stopped Zopiclone. 12 days since I started Seroquel. I need some advice on getting off, but this inability to sleep is in my way.

 

Please help!

[[ga...]]

I don't know if it is the meds or the pressure we put on ourselves to get sleep.  I am well aware I am putting tremendous pressure on myself to sleep due to the fact I have a lot to do at work the following day.  For me it is a self fulfilling prophecy.  I just know when I have lots to do the next day I will sleep little or not at all. It is such a mental game.  At least the Seroquel is helping you get some sleep.  I know you want off all meds as most of us do.  A very slow process as I can attest to.  I have been off the Ativan for over 10 months and I know there are nights I could go back....BUT I REFUSE to do that and will continue to move forward.  Things will get better and I am sure you will get to the point you won't need the meds.  Just do your best to take it a day at a time and be patient. 

[[Wo...]]

Damien you can take a higher dose of melatonin i have a bottle of 10mg melatonin i got from Wallgreens vitaminB6 has been added in the melatonin pill its supposed to prolong sleep i took half of one earlier to take a 3 hour nap this morning. the brand of the 10mg melatonin i have is called "restall

 

It is widely documented that 10mg of melatonin is excessive. Most consider the 3mg that I take excessive. Few consider anything above 1mg to serve any purpose at all.

[[Wo...]]

The discussion of masturbation has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: Insomnia.

 

1. She said either masturbation of sexual intercourse.

 

2. Both masturbation and sexual intercourse are well known to help with sleep.

 

The comment was very appropriate for the discussion for which I've been highly active in and did not take offense to it (and neither did the OP). There was NOTHING rude or inappropriate about the way she phrased it. Perhaps had you been involved from page 1 of this discussion instead of page 13 you would have had more context.

 

From WebMD...

 

Masturbation isn't only about sex, Levkoff says. For many, it's a routine way of relieving stress, clearing your head before work, or going to sleep.

 

http://www.webmd.com/men/guide/male-masturbation-5-things-you-didnt-know

[[8d...]]

I don't know if it is the meds or the pressure we put on ourselves to get sleep.  I am well aware I am putting tremendous pressure on myself to sleep due to the fact I have a lot to do at work the following day.  For me it is a self fulfilling prophecy.  I just know when I have lots to do the next day I will sleep little or not at all. It is such a mental game.  At least the Seroquel is helping you get some sleep.  I know you want off all meds as most of us do.  A very slow process as I can attest to.  I have been off the Ativan for over 10 months and I know there are nights I could go back....BUT I REFUSE to do that and will continue to move forward.  Things will get better and I am sure you will get to the point you won't need the meds.  Just do your best to take it a day at a time and be patient.

 

I appreciate your words.

 

I have to be more patient and stop panicking daily about the fact I'm taking medication.

 

Every day I feel frustrated I'm relying on meds, and I want to sort it right there and then. I try sleeping without the meds like I did last night, and sleep does not come. I guess I just need to find a way to give myself the assurance, that eventually, I will get through this!

[[Co...]]

Snowball, WorriedDad and all,

 

Members are not aware of the full background to most of our moderation decisions; neither should members expect to know all the details. However, since babyangel creates one problem after another (and self-evidently deliberately so), I will explain a little more about this situation.

 

Here's pianogirl's original comments (quoted earlier in this thread without context or a link) within the context of the original thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=92903.msg1194878;topicseen#msg1194878

 

Anyway, babyangel has a history of posting inappropriate comments referencing masturbation. For a second time (there have been similar past moderation issues), we have been pre-moderating Babyangel's posts. babyangel continues to attempt to post inappropriately, and we have not 'approved' all her posts. She has retaliated by placing false claims in signature line about how she is being moderated (claims that we are not approving any of her posts). Only when threatened with a full suspension did she remove those claims (she engaged in exactly the same behaviour - false claims in her signature line - when we last restricted her account in this way).

 

The most egregious (past) incident involved babyangel sending a racist slur to another member through the PM system (so that readers will properly understand, babyangel asked the member if s/he was 'an abbo' because s/he had a monkey for his/her avatar). Because this was an Australian phrase, the Team did not understand just how offensive it was (being British, I probably have a better understanding of Australian culture than the mostly American team). When I explained its American equivalent term to the team, an outraged pianogirl contacted babyangel and referenced the commonly understood equivalent word, and suspended babyangel's account. Frankly, babyangel should count herself lucky that her account was not instantly banned.

 

Given babyanegl's past and present attempts of misleading members, misuse of her signature line to misinform members, gratuitous sexual comments, and attempts (past and more recent) to falsely report to members that pianogirl used the 'n-word' to her (when pianogirl only made reference to the equivalent term to the one used by babyangel in a PM to another member), and my strong suspicion that further misinformation is occurring through the PM system and/or e-mail, I have decided that enough is enough. I am suspending babyangel's account for 30 days. If and when she returns, she will be unable to use the PM system, and a single occurrence of anything more the than the most minor infraction of the rules, decorum or common decency, will result in a permanent ban for babyangel.

 

I have two other comments to make. I am rather fed up with a few members constantly questioning the actions of the moderation team. Frankly, by all reasonable assessments, the team have been very restrained in the actions taken against babyanegl. Anyone reasonably familiar with how most forums operate will appreciate that an account as disruptive as babyangel's would have been banned long ago. Benzoid, who has moderated and adminned at a number of other forums has commented to the team that we are far more understanding and tolerant than would occur at any other forum he has helped manage (or participated at as an ordinary member) and has had to adjust to our way of doing things (he agrees we moderate appropriately for this environment). My second point is that a few members are actually making it more difficult for us to moderate this space, and deal with problems as we deem fit (even necessitating this public explanation from me). So that you know, the spreading of such distrust is unappreciated and disruptive to the operation of this community (a moderation issue in of itself). If this continues, the members responsible will find their accounts restricted or worse.

 

As I wrote a little earlier, members are not privy to all the circumstances of individual moderation decisions - nor you should you be. Frankly, a few members owe the whole team (and fellow members) an unreserved apology.

 

 

Edit: typos and minor rephrasings.

[[Wo...]]

Colin, her post on this thread was neither crude nor inappropriate for the conversation. It was actually a very good suggestion that I contemplated making myself. If you think I should apologize for defending her in this specific instance then I have no idea what passes for allowable conversation here and perhaps I should move on. I try my best to help people here and if you read this particular thread in its entirely I have been EXTREMELY helpful to this particular member and don't like being treated like I'm being rude for questioning a moderator. If you want to ban me for this post have at it. I am proud of the way I've handled myself on these forums and this thread in particular.

[[Co...]]

Colin, her post on this thread was neither crude nor inappropriate for the conversation. It was actually a very good suggestion that I contemplated making myself. If you think I should apologize for defending her in this specific instance then I have no idea what passes for allowable conversation here and perhaps I should move on. I try my best to help people here and if you read this particular thread in its entirely I have been EXTREMELY helpful to this particular member and don't like being treated like I'm being rude for questioning a moderator. If you want to ban me for this post have at it. I am proud of the way I've handled myself on these forums and this thread in particular.

 

WorriedDad,

 

I thought I had just explained what is expected!?

 

In any case, you are wrong. babyangel has a history of posting these type of comments. A post from two weeks ago by babyangel (which I removed), included the following comment:

 

i still vent my urges with pleasuring myself daily usually once in the morning with

a sex toy i have then again in the evening

 

The above does not refer to sexual dysfunction as a benzodiazepine side effect or withdrawal symptom (which would be allowed by the rules), and forms part of a pattern of disruptive and inappropriate behavior. It also makes use of more graphic language than is necessary: 'urges', 'pleasuring', 'sex toy', how many times per day. Really!?

 

Now, I will thank you for not interfering with moderation decisions. Enough's enough.

[[8d...]]

Can we get back to the topic in which I started this thread.

 

How the hell do you deal with rebound anxiety???

[[Be...]]

How the hell do you deal with rebound anxiety???

Well, it'll be different for everyone.  I get a fair amount of it and my chosen methods to deal with it are exercise, trying to sleep (not going so well right now), reducing caffeine intake / alcohol, and I know that it'll reduce further when I quit smoking in a week or two.

 

Previously I'd have taken a few benzos, but since cheating is no longer an option the real method to address anxiety, so far as I can tell, is to look for the underlying causes of it and mend some internal wounds, that is, assuming that's its source.  If so it's a biological, psychoemotional response to something in our lives.  If it's an actual chemical imbalance, or faulty thyroid, for example, then medication of some kind is an option.  If it's simply a case of benzo withdrawals, then I go back to looking at exercise, diet etc.

 

 

B

 

 

 

Edited for clarity.

[[VC...]]

8damien8,

 

I can share what's helped me, and practically speaking, magnesium glycinate and Epsom salt baths has been very beneficial. Magnesium has a calming effect, relaxes muscles, and is a vital mineral that we all need. I started low and went slow.

 

Other than that, finding ways to distract is extremely important. I've tried everything from EFT (tapping), to housework, to soothing music, to listening to "body scan" meditations and mindfulness meditations on You Tube. I've learned slow breathing techniques to keep me from hyperventilating in a panic until the anxiety passed. I've got a much better handle on the anxiety than I did a few weeks ago.

 

You can find helpful things like this for free on You Tube. For example, Bliss Johns has a series of videos to help those of us in benzo recovery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKqEzX1hr4k

 

Good nutrition is important because our brains and nervous systems need it to heal and repair so eat as well as you can afford. Take good care of yourself right now. Be gentle and kind to yourself. Benzoid makes a good point about eliminating or reducing caffeine and alcohol. I had to stop eating chocolate at one point because I'd be a nervous wreck afterwards, and even sugar revs me up.

 

Hope something here helps. Remember it's temporary. I wish you wellness.

 

VC 

 

PS--here's a link to the brand of tart cherry juice I take for sleep. It has natural melatonin and is a good anti-oxidant, too. http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/dynamic-health-tart-cherry-juice-concentrate-16-oz/dh-1014#.U3fuIig0jFI

[[Bi...]]

8damien8,

 

I can share what's helped me, and practically speaking, magnesium glycinate and Epsom salt baths has been very beneficial. Magnesium has a calming effect, relaxes muscles, and is a vital mineral that we all need. I started low and went slow.

 

Other than that, finding ways to distract is extremely important. I've tried everything from EFT (tapping), to housework, to soothing music, to listening to "body scan" meditations and mindfulness meditations on You Tube. I've learned slow breathing techniques to keep me from hyperventilating in a panic until the anxiety passed. I've got a much better handle on the anxiety than I did a few weeks ago.

 

You can find helpful things like this for free on You Tube. For example, Bliss Johns has a series of videos to help those of us in benzo recovery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKqEzX1hr4k

 

Good nutrition is important because our brains and nervous systems need it to heal and repair so eat as well as you can afford. Take good care of yourself right now. Be gentle and kind to yourself. Benzoid makes a good point about eliminating or reducing caffeine and alcohol. I had to stop eating chocolate at one point because I'd be a nervous wreck afterwards, and even sugar revs me up.

 

Hope something here helps. Remember it's temporary. I wish you wellness.

 

VC 

 

PS--here's a link to the brand of tart cherry juice I take for sleep. It has natural melatonin and is a good anti-oxidant, too. http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/dynamic-health-tart-cherry-juice-concentrate-16-oz/dh-1014#.U3fuIig0jFI

 

I think alcohol may as well be a liquid benzo as it does the same thing to gabaA receptors as a benzo does.  However, I drink weak coffee every morning, love the smell and taste.  By night time I am dead tired and I sleep well.  I think the REV-DOWN from the caffeine 'LOW' helps me sleep.  I know as I feel my body is craving coffee as my head hits the pillow at night and I can't keep my eyes open.  As long as I drink coffee daily I think you just get used to it. Also there is evidence that coffee builds up gabaA receptors.  Just like a benzo can deplete gabaA there is evidence that coffee and gluten can enhance gabaA via biosynthesis and leave you with too many gabaA receptors leaving you kind of fat, lazy and sleepy.  Some researchers have called it DORITOS syndrome.  The result of eating flavored Doritos packed with radically high levels of MSG creating TOO many gabaA receptors. If one substance can wipe out gabaA (benzo's) than another can over build them,  RIGHT?  Homeostasis DOES work both ways after all.  Morning coffee does not harm my sleep and just maybe even helps me build up gabaA receptor reserves by challenging the brain to react to chemical stimulus thus creating a new level of Homeostasis where gabaA is actually over enhanced. If you believe in homeostasis this is also then possible, to create chemical conditions in the brain that over-build the gabaA system.  Morning coffee is not that bad, I will not drink it after 1:00PM however.

[[VC...]]

Birdman, do you have any documentation linking coffee with enhanced gaba? It does not benefit me. The issue in benzo w/d is not that our brain stops making gaba, but that our gaba receptors are fried and need time to upregulate and heal. If there's evidence that coffee actually helps rebuild the gaba receptors, I'd like to read that, and so would hundreds of other benzo buddies. 

 

Same with Doritos and MSG. I just sent a link to someone regarding the reason we avoid MSG - too much glutamate added to an already out-of-balance GABA/glutamate system during recovery can't be good. If I thought eating Doritos and drinking coffee would upregulate my GABA receptors faster, I'd be on it like white on rice. You're right about the alcohol.

 

Damien, how are you doing today?

V 

[[Be...]]

This site:

 

http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/news/GABA.html

 

..says that caffeine suppresses gaba, which would fit with my experience of caffeine increasing anxiety.

 

 

B

[[VC...]]

This site:

 

http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/news/GABA.html

 

..says that caffeine suppresses gaba, which would fit with my experience of caffeine increasing anxiety.

 

 

B

 

Thank you kindly, B.  My experience, too.

[[Be...]]

I'm no neurologist but my layman's understanding of gaba is that without enough of it being produced by the transmitter sites, we get too many other hormonal 'signals' which lead to anxiety et al.  Therefore, it stands-to-reason (in my mind at lesat) that anything which supresses gaba = not good for withdrawals.

 

That said, does coffee have phytochemicals in it that increase gaba sites?  If yes, does it mean they're active sites?  I don't know, I just know that coffee = anxiety in my body and has whether I was on or off bennies.

 

But, god, I love it anyway

 

 

 

B

[[Bi...]]

Birdman, do you have any documentation linking coffee with enhanced gaba? It does not benefit me. The issue in benzo w/d is not that our brain stops making gaba, but that our gaba receptors are fried and need time to upregulate and heal. If there's evidence that coffee actually helps rebuild the gaba receptors, I'd like to read that, and so would hundreds of other benzo buddies. 

 

Same with Doritos and MSG. I just sent a link to someone regarding the reason we avoid MSG - too much glutamate added to an already out-of-balance GABA/glutamate system during recovery can't be good. If I thought eating Doritos and drinking coffee would upregulate my GABA receptors faster, I'd be on it like white on rice. You're right about the alcohol.

 

Damien, how are you doing today?

V 

 

 

Re; caffeine:  The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%

REF: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8242688

 

More on caffeine    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2835648

 

 

Caffeine's antagonism of adenosine action on A2A receptors in the globus pallidus decreases release of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA (Gamma-AminoButyric Acid). Caffeine can neutralize the effects of benzodiazepine tranquilizers such as diazepam (Valium®). Benzodiazepines act by enhancing the effect of GABA on GABAA receptors, whereas caffeine has an opposite effect by inhibiting GABA release

Something with a opposite effect will UP-regulate gabaA.

 

REF.  http://www.benbest.com/health/caffeine.html

 

http://65.54.113.26/Publication/34478537/chronic-caffeine-alters-the-density-of-adenosine-adrenergic-cholinergic-gaba-and-serotonin

 

The list is endless  GOOGLE  'chronic caffeine upregulate gaba'

 

I will try to find that report on Doritos but it's obscure, I forgot the search phrase I used and I read it 18 months ago. I keep so much info in my brain it's going to pop . Doritos contain the most MSG of any chip!!!  And yes it causes, laziness, sleepiness, lethargy and weight gain because of TOO MUCH gabaA.  Doritos (MSG) change brain chemistry to the opposite of benzo's.  Try Googleing Doritos Syndrome as I remember it.  Teenagers are addicted to Cola and Doritos and do not know why they crave the combo.  SUGAR, CAFFEINE and MSG provides a powerful one/two punch for super brain stimulation but afterwards they just want to laze around a play video games until their next stimulatory junk food fix.

 

Still each person's reaction to caffeine or other stimulants maybe different.  If caffeine gives you problems then stop drinking it but avoiding it because your simply scared is silly.  I ate gluten, caffeine, msg ravenously before benzo's and I never recall feeling bad so I am returning to the old diet.  I am so tired of hiding and being afraid.  Time to live again, maybe some good will come from it after all I had no complaints back then in the pre-benzo days as I recall.  Benzo withdrawal was 1000X worse than the the most MSG'd Chinese dinner I ever ate

 

Yes coffee will rev your up, that's the whole point, the brain reacts by making changes to calm itself down that are opposite to benzo induced changes. Healing hurts. Brain changes are uncomfortable in the now but may heal us in the long run.  Lot's of people in the success story's area are coffee drinkers. That's one point my computer profiling program caught early on   Drinking stronger coffee is something I will work up to slowly as my delicate post jump condition get's better.  Doritos and Coal is not a good idea for people tapering but I intend to carefully explore the concept as another level in post jump healing and see how it goes.

[[VC...]]

Thanks, Birdman. It's past my bedtime so I'll read later. (Here's hoping we all sleep, right?)

I still avoid caffeine due to A-fib, so it's still a no-no for me.

 

V 

[[Bi...]]

Thanks, Birdman. It's past my bedtime so I'll read later. (Here's hoping we all sleep, right?)

I still avoid caffeine due to A-fib, so it's still a no-no for me.

 

V 

:thumbsup:

[[8d...]]

So is it the benzos affect on GABA, that creates the insomnia? And how long does it take for the body to regulate and start working normally again?

 

I was not on a benzo, but was on Zopiclone that acts on the same receptors, and is essentially a benzo in disguise.

 

Would it make sense that using something like Seroquel, would give my brain the chance to heal from the Zopiclone?

 

I'm trying to get off all meds, and sleeplessness is the main obstacle in my way.

 

Any advice would be appreciated

[[Be...]]

I'm trying to get off all meds, and sleeplessness is the main obstacle in my way.

 

One thing I'm sure of is that nobody can realisitcally expect to stop taking sedatives and get their normal sleep routine back right away.  It'll take a period of time to reset the body's natural systems after full cessation.

 

 

B

 

[[8d...]]

I'm trying to get off all meds, and sleeplessness is the main obstacle in my way.

 

One thing I'm sure of is that nobody can realisitcally expect to stop taking sedatives and get their normal sleep routine back right away.  It'll take a period of time to reset the body's natural systems after full cessation.

 

 

B

 

I think my fear is that it is going to take a long time, and I won't be able to tough it out.

 

I guess I'm just looking for words of encouragement around doing this. I have tried going a night off here and there, and I get zero sleep. How long could that possibly last for?

 

[[ga...]]

I can offer words of encouragement.  Been through it and have survived. You will too.  It's amazing how long the body can go without sleep.  I went for as many as 4 days a couple of weeks ago.  I felt just completely drained all day.  I missed work for a few days but here I am on the other side now.  As I told you earlier, you have to be prepared to accept the bad nights.  THey will come and go BUT you will get through it.  One thing that has amazed me is that my immune system seems to have stayed pretty much intact.  With this poor sleep I have managed not to get sick very often.  Again, just amazing what the body will do.  I push through  it by trying to eat well, not great, rest when I can and get exercise even when I am sleep deprived...not easy.  Good luck to you my friend.  You CAN do it!

[[8d...]]

I can offer words of encouragement.  Been through it and have survived. You will too.  It's amazing how long the body can go without sleep.  I went for as many as 4 days a couple of weeks ago.  I felt just completely drained all day.  I missed work for a few days but here I am on the other side now.  As I told you earlier, you have to be prepared to accept the bad nights.  THey will come and go BUT you will get through it.  One thing that has amazed me is that my immune system seems to have stayed pretty much intact.  With this poor sleep I have managed not to get sick very often.  Again, just amazing what the body will do.  I push through  it by trying to eat well, not great, rest when I can and get exercise even when I am sleep deprived...not easy.  Good luck to you my friend.  You CAN do it!

 

Thank you!!!

 

I am going to reduce the Seroquel to 37.50mg tonight, and then I see my pdoc on Thursday. I'll see if he thinks I can go down to 25 next week. Maybe 12.5 the week after.

 

I'll see what he says. Maybe I don't even need to do this after only being on it for 2 weeks. My concern is what the Zopiclone might have left behind for me to deal with. I wonder if the Seroquel is just covering it up, and it's waiting for me!?!

 

In any event, I also need to understand sleep hygiene a bit more. For instance, I know you're supposed to keep the same sleep & wake up time each day. But when I withdraw from the Seroquel, if I'm up for a couple of nights, and finally the urge to sleep comes in the middle of the day. Do I give in to it? Or do I hold out until my sleep time?

 

Also, when you don't sleep for a couple of days, you're not exactly fit to drive. How do you deal with that? And how do I get myself to the gym or out for a bike ride when I have zero energy?

 

I'm determined to do this. Guess I just need some reassurance and a good plan.

 

Thanks

[[Po...]]

As bad as not sleeping is for the body, in my opinion adding drugs is worse.

 

As for coffee I am agnostic at the moment but I do think so many of the symptoms we get are due to other systems besides the GABA/glutamate. Perseverance has a lot of posts that explain it very well.

 

I was drinking coffee in the first couple months, now I'm experimenting with not having it. It's so hard to say whether it had an effect or not, unless I maybe try starting it up again?