Menopause/Hormonal Support

[[Di...]]

Hi Smiff

 

Yes CRAZY is the word. 

 

I have heard of Crinone and Profeme, but I don't think they would work for me, because they aren't on the Australian Menopause Society list of HRTs for menopause, so probably not suitable for meno ladies. If you have you own natural levels of prog though they could be fine.

 

A lot of these topical progesterone creams have not been proven to be effective enough in opposing estrogen for uterine health. So, for me, that wouldn't work because that's the only reason I need to use prog. This is what Dr Currie says about prescription prog creams on the Menopause Matters website..... http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/prescribed.php

 

"NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM This is only available on a private prescription and is used in varying strengths. Some individuals believe that the replacement of progesterone rather than estrogen is needed at the menopause but many experts still believe that the symptoms of menopause are due to estrogen lack and therefore the main hormone to replace should be estrogen, with forms of progesterone only being added to protect the womb lining from stimulation by estrogen. However, progesterone cream has been shown to be of some help in the relief of flushes and sweats at the menopause but natural progesterone cream is not suitable for providing protection to the womb lining. There are claims that it can offer bone protection but the National Osteoporosis Society funded a study into these claims and they have not been confirmed. Therefore any individual at risk of osteoporosis should NOT consider this as effective for offering bone protection."

 

To the best of my knowledge the only pharma grade progesterones, effective in opposing estradiol, are Utrogestan or Prometrium (depending on the country you're in), and of course neither is available in Australia. This is why I'm considering trying out some of the progestins that are available, but I could end up being worse off than I am with the Utrogestan, but I have try, and if I can adjust the dose to be low enough, I might not suffer as much with them.

[[Sm...]]

Crinone is vaginal gel put on with an insert

I think its primary use is for infertility treatment

But yea it might not be enough for meno

 

I didn't really get much from my hormone Dr. I could go on low dose prog cream but my bloods don't show I need it.  I don't think I'll risk it.

She said stay on the estriadol though because that didn't read as high even though I had my small dose patch on.

 

So yeah.. a bit of nothing really. She said I could do a full saliva test. I have a few other test options. I was a bit grumpy though I think.. just over Drs. She said I should see a psychologist too and I think that raised my ire a bit. She thought I sounded like I had depressive thought patterns when I was saying I may just wait till after benzo w/d to look into some of this stuff because I'm screwed no matter what during benzo w/d period. I'm like 'that isn't depressive. that is reality'. Ho hum.. just another Dr who doesn't really get how bad it can be for some of us 

[[jo...]]

Oh meant to say, one of the reasons I'm starting to suspect the estradiol patch is that for the last few nights I'm aware of heart palps when I'm trying to get to sleep, which can be a sign of higher levels of estrogen. Plus I simply can not lose weight, which can also be a sign of high estrogen. Sleep can also be affected by high estrogen. Like I said, just a theory at this stage. These damn hormones are so complicated, and their affects so intertwined, that I'm surprised anyone understands them.

Hi

 

Are you taking utrogestan?

Although most women tolerate this, some women just have difficulty with progesterone in general.

 

Could you be oestrogen dominant?

 

Do they have Femoston where you live?

You can get a variety called Femoston Conti for women who are  post menopausal and this only has a tiny bit in. It's a pill with both oestrogen and dydrogesterone in.

 

Femoston 2/10 wasn't working at all for me. I was getting flushes and sweats still. Stopping gluten made the flushes vanish in a couple of days.

I (hope that I am not) don't think that I am coeliac, but I must have been intolerant to gluten, because I was getting IBS-D every morning and that also stopped when I cut out gluten.

I'd read online in a few places that gluten can cause menopausal symptoms as it messes up the endocrine and hormonal systems.

Now my Femoston is doing the job it should.

[[...]]

Hey all,

I wasn't going to post this until more time went by, but what the hell, why not.

 

I was due to start the P on the first of May but not only did I not start it I also discontinued use of the estradiol gel.  It seemed that no matter what I did taper wise or progesterone wise, my sleep was always crap.  The latest development over the last few months is the inability to fall asleep and when I finally would drop off sleep was sketchy and I was waking up so often that it actually seemed like I was not sleeping at all.

 

I did some reading and came across some articles about how a too high dose of estradiol could be energizing and cause sleeplessness.  I have no idea if that is the issue or not, but I decided that if sleep was going to continue to elude me on estradiol, it could just as easily elude me off estradiol.  I have been without it for a little over a week now, and so far I honestly do not see anything negative.  As a matter of fact, the last three nights or so I have slept for at least five hours straight before waking up. 

 

I will see how I feel as my tissue levels drop and if I start developing the typical hot flash / night sweat / anxiety issues associated with meno then I will know that I still do need the E but maybe in a much lower dose than I had been taking.

 

It could be that the stress our bodies are all under during withdrawal are making the hormonal balance issue such a mess (or maybe not) but I am hoping I can finish this taper and then deal with resuming HRT later this year if necessary.  I do want the protective properties that come with estradiol, but am very weary of trying to determine what is benzo related and what is hrt related.

 

The next few weeks should be interesting.

 

edit: typo

[[Di...]]

Hi Smiff – I’m sorry you didn’t have a very positive experience, but at least you know you don't have to worry about messing with prog at the moment. I’ve also found that a lot of doctors are just not very meno-wise, and some of them are just downright arrogant and dumb. My current doctor is okay, but I’ve really had to lead her by the hand in the direction I’ve wanted to go. I also had to be the one to work out that all my previous HRT problems were really caused by valium w/d. She never twigged to that at all. I don’t really think she will offer too much guidance for me when I see her next Tuesday. I really would like to find out if my own levels of prog are reasonably high, because maybe that’s why I suffer a lot when I take extra prog, and why I usually get a very light bleed after I’ve taken the extra prog. Maybe my own natural levels of prog are keeping my lining in check. However, I don’t think she will shed much light on that query, but she might surprise me, so I need to be positive.

 

Hi Journey – It’s good to hear that your HRT is working fine now. Yes I use Utrogestan, but I’m starting to have misgivings about it. It’s pretty much a “one size fits all” routine because you can’t take anything lower than 100mg, but it’s currently the best we have if we want to take a natural prog. I’m not jumping for joy over trying out some of the synthetics though, but at least the doses are more flexible.  I don’t like using the phrase “estrogen dominant”, because it’s become a bit of a buzz word for all the progesterone therapy advocates, but of course it is possible for your estrogen levels to be too high if you are using HRT, and that’s why I want to experiment with cutting bits off my patch for a while to see if I can manage on lower estradiol. I prefer to stick with the patches at the moment though, rather than go back to tablets, because it’s easier to adjust and lower the dose by cutting the patch.

 

Hi Eliz – My brave meno-soldier..lol… It’s good to hear that things are still going okay. I hope you find out that you can do without it, or at least only need a very low dose of estradiol. That would solve all the problems we have in meno.

 

Hormones are just so darn contrary. Prog can help with sleep and create a feeling of calm, but it can also cause sleeplessness, depression, weight gain, etc. Estradiol can help with sleep and general well being, but it can also cause sleeplessness, anxiety, heart palps, weight gain etc. Talk about oxymorons…… Everything just needs to be in perfect balance, and I have no idea if that’s even possible.

 

I’m hoping that things are starting to get a little better for me. I still took one of my 50mg Endep tablets before bed, but I feel asleep really quickly and slept really solidly. So that’s an improvement on taking ages to get to sleep, and my depression seems to have lifted. I’ll try lowering the AD dose over the next few nights. Hopefully the worst is over – for this round anyway.

 

At the moment I'm not planning on using any more prog until at least the beginning of July, because by then my taper should be done, or almost done, and I won't have to bother about what's causing what s/x, or the effect that valium is having on my hormones.

[[Sm...]]

Sounds like a plan DP. You can get to July without prog. And then... no benzos!! Way to go sister!

Also my Dr wasn't an overly unpositive experience. It was just that annoying: you know nothink about benzo w/d experience.

 

Lizzy good luck. It may be what turns things around for you. I'll be watching this space. You let us know how you go.

 

Soldier on ladies. I'm out of the woods I think; oh and surprise my period ended just as the depression, cog fog, anxiety, flu-like symptoms, sleeplessness, tingly skin passed.

 

[[jo...]]

Hi Diaz

 

Sorry to hear you are having troubles with utrogestan.

I think that some of the women on the meno matters forum also have issues with it.

I think progesterone in general sounds difficult.

 

As for synthetics, many women over on the meno forum get on really well with Femoston, dydrogesterone, being the synthetic hormone used.

I am getting on fine with it also, but before I went gluten free it didn't stop my flushes or sweats or IBS.

 

I am not sure of the connection with gluten and meno but my body is much happier with me not putting gluten into it.

[[Di...]]

We do have Femoston here, but it's only in a medium dose sequi tablet, and at this point in time I don't really want to switch to a medium estradiol tablet because I'm not certain I need a medium dose. Being on the medium patch means I can experiment by cutting bits off it to see just what dose I really do need.

 

If I do decide to try out the synthetic progs though I will have to use a tablet, as none of them come as a separate patch (not that I've found anyway). I have a choice of medroxyprogesterone or norethisterone, and I'm not too keen on the latter, but some women do okay on it.

 

If I'm lucky enough to only need a low dose now, I would like to go back to Livial, which was the first HRT I was on. I got on really well with that one, and it was a combined HRT (meaning no periods). It stopped working after a while because I needed a higher dose, but I'm hopeful I might be able to go back to it one day.

[[Ra...]]

Well I just had a saliva test done and my estrodial was at the very low end of normal for BHRT.  Progesterone was kinda in the middle, but in ratio to the estrodial, it was high.  I wake up a lot in the night and so we are going to increase my estrodial patch from a .05mg/day to .075 per day and see if that helps the night wakings.  We are also lowering the progest to 40mg per day, compounded cream to try to get the ratio in the better range.  At this point, I don't know what's causing me to wake up so much in the night.  I usually sleep for about 5 hours until the Seroquel wears off, then on and off, but that was happening even before my taper, so I don't think I can blame the frequent night wakenings on the taper.  We'll see what happens. 

 

So DP, you cut your patches?  I have several .05mg patches left and asked the pharmacist if I could cut the patch in half and use a patch and a half to achieve the .075mg/day goal.  He said no.  They are $60 per pack and I don't want to waste them.  Mine are a generic called Alvogen.  Do you see any reason why I can't cute the patch?  I'm thinking the pharmacist said that because the package says not to cut the patch.  Thoughts?

 

Thank you!

 

Rabbit

[[li...]]

Hello all..I didn't read this entire thread so I don't know really what it's all about...

I use Etrace cream every so often..it is suspossed to be used every night, but my doctor told me once a week because I had uterine cancer in 2012...

 

I'm not really getting menopause sxs anymore.....I went through a normal one back in 2009, ....

I think the lack of good sleep is partly  from the WD and the other part menopause and having like no hormones left!

I pretty much am scared to use anything at this point...less is best for me..but I have other issues such as dryness and such..if you know what I mean...

 

I just don't have much faith in the medical doctors anymore..sorry...

 

Hope all is well with everyone...little

[[...]]

Well I just had a saliva test done and my estrodial was at the very low end of normal for BHRT.  Progesterone was kinda in the middle, but in ratio to the estrodial, it was high.  I wake up a lot in the night and so we are going to increase my estrodial patch from a .05mg/day to .075 per day and see if that helps the night wakings.  We are also lowering the progest to 40mg per day, compounded cream to try to get the ratio in the better range.  At this point, I don't know what's causing me to wake up so much in the night.  I usually sleep for about 5 hours until the Seroquel wears off, then on and off, but that was happening even before my taper, so I don't think I can blame the frequent night wakenings on the taper.  We'll see what happens. 

 

So DP, you cut your patches?  I have several .05mg patches left and asked the pharmacist if I could cut the patch in half and use a patch and a half to achieve the .075mg/day goal.  He said no.  They are $60 per pack and I don't want to waste them.  Mine are a generic called Alvogen.  Do you see any reason why I can't cute the patch?  I'm thinking the pharmacist said that because the package says not to cut the patch.  Thoughts?

 

Thank you!

 

Rabbit

 

Hi Bunny,

I fear your pharmacist may be misinformed.  My doctor said absolutely the patches could be cut to reduce the dosage.  Wonder why he told you that?

[[Di...]]

Well I just had a saliva test done and my estrodial was at the very low end of normal for BHRT.  Progesterone was kinda in the middle, but in ratio to the estrodial, it was high.  I wake up a lot in the night and so we are going to increase my estrodial patch from a .05mg/day to .075 per day and see if that helps the night wakings.  We are also lowering the progest to 40mg per day, compounded cream to try to get the ratio in the better range.  At this point, I don't know what's causing me to wake up so much in the night.  I usually sleep for about 5 hours until the Seroquel wears off, then on and off, but that was happening even before my taper, so I don't think I can blame the frequent night wakenings on the taper.  We'll see what happens. 

 

So DP, you cut your patches?  I have several .05mg patches left and asked the pharmacist if I could cut the patch in half and use a patch and a half to achieve the .075mg/day goal.  He said no.  They are $60 per pack and I don't want to waste them.  Mine are a generic called Alvogen.  Do you see any reason why I can't cute the patch?  I'm thinking the pharmacist said that because the package says not to cut the patch.  Thoughts?

 

Thank you!

 

Rabbit

 

 

It’s interesting that you should ask this question, because I've just had a chat to a pharmacist this morning.

 

My Estradot patches normally stick like glue, but since I've been cutting a ¼ off them, I’ve found that sometimes the corner starts to lift. I have read on the Menopause Matters forum that you can use Micropore tape to cover the patches if they start to come off, but when I checked the label it didn’t actually say that it was waterproof, and my patches need to stay on for 3-4 days. So the pharmacist gave me something called “Opsite Flexigrid”, which is waterproof and comes in larger patches that I can cut to suit.

 

Anyway, she asked why I was cutting the patches, and I told her that I was experimenting to see if I could reduce my dose, and she said that was fine. I also asked if I could cut a patch in half and put it with one of the ¼ bits that I’ve cut off, to make up the ¾ patch that I’m experimenting with, and she said that probably wasn’t advisable, because they’re not really designed to be used that way, and if you use too many cut bits you may not get a proper dose.

 

I’d still like to give it a try though, because that’s just her opinion. So maybe give it a try and see what happens. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[[Di...]]

Hi little m

 

I would have thought the Estrace cream would have helped with the dryness. Pehaps if you tried using it once a week, as your doctor suggested, it might help.

[[ju...]]

Hi all, I'm a fairly new member to this board.  52 yr old gal who Had a Total hysterectomy and removal of ovaries in jan 2014. Gyne/surgeon did not start me on HRT after surgery ( "Wait and see you shouldn't need them at your age") Well I could have kicked myself for not doing more research . Went into "hormonal crash" 6-7 wks after surgery. My poor G.P has been left with the task of trying to "fix me". Started on Estrogel ( .75) for 4 weeks ( not performing well), followed by Climara patch 0.5 increased to 0. 6 ( weekly patch not lasting in estrogen). Started on Estadot ( Canadian version of vivelle dot .75 this week. I'm not sure if it's Estradial in general or just hormone flucuations , but I have a lot of anxiety , chest palpitations, and insomnia. Have been taking Ativan off and on Since surgery and 1mg daily since beginning of April for this. Also started on Cipralex (SSRI) this week d/t the depression/anxiety resulting from hormone crash and trying to stabilize on ERT. I feel that I have to stablize on the ERT and SSRI somewhat before trying to wean off the Ativan. I'm really discouraged re: how this surgery has upset my life resulting in me having to take these different meds. Have lost almost 25lbs since surgery . Appetite is poor and not being helped by the Cipralex which causing nausea. Well thats  me...the hot mess. Appreciate the support board and any helpful advice greatly appreciated.

[[Sm...]]

Hey Judy

 

I'm so sorry that you have had all these problems and new meds because of something as simple as hormones. There are many many instances of women who ended up on these meds as a result of their drop in hormones.

 

Part of me wants to say: stop the ativan now; in the hope that you aren't already dependent. It may be helping you sleep and relax but trust me when I say that short term relief in that department is not worth a benzo dependency. And it can be achieved with other drugs in the short term why you sort out your hormones that are less addictive.

Have you tried not using Ativan yet? If it were me I'd be trying not to use it to see if I didn't yet have a dependency. And if I didn't have a dependency I'd be thanking my lucky stars. If you are already dependent then you are probably right that you need to stabilise on your ERT and SSRI before getting off the benzo.

 

Note, this is my personal opinion and I'm not a Dr. Look over this forum if you are short of any reasons to try to possibly avoid a benzodiazepine dependency.

 

Good luck and keep us posted

Smiff

[[Ra...]]

Well I just had a saliva test done and my estrodial was at the very low end of normal for BHRT.  Progesterone was kinda in the middle, but in ratio to the estrodial, it was high.  I wake up a lot in the night and so we are going to increase my estrodial patch from a .05mg/day to .075 per day and see if that helps the night wakings.  We are also lowering the progest to 40mg per day, compounded cream to try to get the ratio in the better range.  At this point, I don't know what's causing me to wake up so much in the night.  I usually sleep for about 5 hours until the Seroquel wears off, then on and off, but that was happening even before my taper, so I don't think I can blame the frequent night wakenings on the taper.  We'll see what happens. 

 

So DP, you cut your patches?  I have several .05mg patches left and asked the pharmacist if I could cut the patch in half and use a patch and a half to achieve the .075mg/day goal.  He said no.  They are $60 per pack and I don't want to waste them.  Mine are a generic called Alvogen.  Do you see any reason why I can't cute the patch?  I'm thinking the pharmacist said that because the package says not to cut the patch.  Thoughts?

 

Thank you!

 

Rabbit

 

Hi Bunny,

I fear your pharmacist may be misinformed.  My doctor said absolutely the patches could be cut to reduce the dosage.  Wonder why he told you that?

 

Hi Liz,

 

I think just for legal reasons.  The box says not to cut the patches, so that's what the pharmacist parroted.  Just guessing.  My hubby was the one who talked to him.  I'm going to do it anyway.  Thanks for your comments.

 

Bunny

[[ju...]]

Thanks Smiff; yes I do have concerns re: the Ativan . I am hoping to stabilize soon on the ERT and Cipralex and will be discussing with my doctor re: weaning off it as soon as I can.

[[li...]]

Hello Diaz-Pam.. The estrace cream did help with the dryness, but it also burns!  I'm just afraid to use much of the hormonal stuff because I did have cancer...and the other side effects that go along with hormone replacement. I'm lucky I don't have too many menopause sxs at this time...

 

Going through WD was much worse than going through menopause...just have to accept the good with the bad at this time for me.

 

Much love and healing to you....little m

[[...]]

Well Ladies it is time for an update on my hrt cold turkey.

 

I am surprised to report nothing negative and my sleep improvement trend continues.  It is a bit like baby steps but I am gradually falling asleep more easily and starting to stay asleep longer and the best part, actually able some nights to fall back to sleep after emptying my bladder. 

 

I won't lie and say I am not experiencing some possible fallout from the lack of estradiol.  There have been a few nights that I have awakened and had to throw off the covers but not many.  This could just as easily be attributed to diet and not meno because as my taper winds down I am sometimes eating things that could possibly cause glutamate / cortisol surges in the night.  I suppose I could go back to eating like a puritan to rule it out but I do not want to watch every stupid thing I put in my mouth anymore!

 

Can you say ice cream! 

 

Soldier on my hormonal sistas!

[[Sm...]]

Good for you Lizzy! Sleep is soooo essential

 

How goes your HRT reductions DP?

 

Just on the cutting of patches... I obviously cut my patches. I cut them a lot - into 8ths. I do however find I can't leave the normal on for 3-4 days. I swap them over every day actually to be safe. I can feel the drops if I don't. I figure there may be a few things going on here: (1) less skin contact with more folding up etc (2) parts of the patch may not last the full 4 days - it may be that it is the whole patch working as a whole that can guarantee that time period. Maybe some bits absorb quicker than other etc.

I don't know if that really makes sense. But yes, for my part I replace my patches more - a lot more in my teeny weeny patch case. At the  moment I'm patch free which is nice. It will have to go back on during period though or I'll lose my mind 

[[Di...]]

Good to hear that things are still going okay lizzy.

 

Interesting to hear what your patch cutting procedure is Smiffy. I guess there could be an issue with the size of the cut piece you are using and how much skin contact there is. At least what you’re doing seems to be working for you.

 

Well I had an oops moment the other day with my patch. Everything was going fine with the ¾ patch experiment, until I realised that when I changed to the second ¾ patch I’d actually forgotten to take the old ¾ patch off. This was after the new patch had been on for just over a day, so I have no idea how much estradiol I was actually getting.

 

Anyway, I decided I was probably being a bit silly for experimenting with reducing my patch before my progesterone saga was completely over, so I went back to using a full patch. I’m back to sleeping quite well again, and I’m due to change the patch this afternoon, but I’m going to use a full patch again, and wait until the next change on Sunday morning before trying the ¾ patch again, just to make sure everything is back to normal.

 

I had my doctor’s appointment yesterday afternoon – pap smear and flu jab time  . Anyway we chatted about my progesterone issue, and she’s given me a script for 5mg medroxyprogesterone. This is a so-called “synthetic”, and I’m not sure if I will be better or worse with it over the progesterone, but it will just be one more experiment. She wants me to use it monthly for 10 days, but I’m not going to use it until July. What she doesn’t know won’t hurt me ..lol….

 

Ironically, she suggested that maybe I could start experimenting with reducing my estradiol dose, so I could take less of the progestogen, and I told her that I was already going to do that. She said if I could get down to 25mcg or 1mg of estradiol, there is a chance I could stop using it altogether. I’m not going to be too hopeful about that, and I’m not sure I want to stop using estradiol altogether anyway, but it would be nice to know I could take a lower dose, so I could take less of the progestogen.

 

To be continued.....

[[...]]

Good to hear that things are still going okay lizzy.

 

Interesting to hear what your patch cutting procedure is Smiffy. I guess there could be an issue with the size of the cut piece you are using and how much skin contact there is. At least what you’re doing seems to be working for you.

 

Well I had an oops moment the other day with my patch. Everything was going fine with the ¾ patch experiment, until I realised that when I changed to the second ¾ patch I’d actually forgotten to take the old ¾ patch off. This was after the new patch had been on for just over a day, so I have no idea how much estradiol I was actually getting.

 

Anyway, I decided I was probably being a bit silly for experimenting with reducing my patch before my progesterone saga was completely over, so I went back to using a full patch. I’m back to sleeping quite well again, and I’m due to change the patch this afternoon, but I’m going to use a full patch again, and wait until the next change on Sunday morning before trying the ¾ patch again, just to make sure everything is back to normal.

 

I had my doctor’s appointment yesterday afternoon – pap smear and flu jab time  . Anyway we chatted about my progesterone issue, and she’s given me a script for 5mg medroxyprogesterone. This is a so-called “synthetic”, and I’m not sure if I will be better or worse with it over the progesterone, but it will just be one more experiment. She wants me to use it monthly for 10 days, but I’m not going to use it until July. What she doesn’t know won’t hurt me ..lol….

 

Ironically, she suggested that maybe I could start experimenting with reducing my estradiol dose, so I could take less of the progestogen, and I told her that I was already going to do that. She said if I could get down to 25mcg or 1mg of estradiol, there is a chance I could stop using it altogether. I’m not going to be too hopeful about that, and I’m not sure I want to stop using estradiol altogether anyway, but it would be nice to know I could take a lower dose, so I could take less of the progestogen.

 

To be continued.....

 

Ahhh the meno diaries!

 

We should only be having to deal with one medical mystery at a time, you know?

[[ov...]]

Heck Menopausal s/xs were nothing compared to benzo w/d!!!

 

OC 

[[Di...]]

For me it was the other way around. My menopause symptoms were harder to deal with and my hormonal (progesterone induced) insomnia doesn't respond to sleep aids as easily. Also, at least with the benzo stuff I know the end is in sight - hormones not so much......

[[...]]

For me it was the other way around. My menopause symptoms were harder to deal with and my hormonal (progesterone induced) insomnia doesn't respond to sleep aids as easily. Also, at least with the benzo stuff I know the end is in sight - hormones not so much......

 

Ditto on managing hormones being harder to understand than tapering benzos.  My insomnia issues were definitely caused more by hormonal imbalance than benzo withdrawal.

 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!