Example of a Valium/Diazepam Daily Reduction Method

[[Di...]]

I see.

Not sure what you mean by "main batch"? Wouldn't you just be making individual batches from maybe a smaller container of vodka?

Should the vodka bottle, and smaller container be stored in fridge, or in cupboard? Maybe that's what you mean by main batch.

 

I still have a ways to go on my taper, around 5mg. Is there any danger of using 1ml of vodka per day for possibly another year?

Btw, what did you not like about milk titration? Seems like I'd need sort of a large jar to stir milk and valium together. Not surre if I should try that first, or go for the vodka method.

 

Thanks for the info and any directions.

infoshar.

 

The way people generally do a titration taper is to take the bulk of their dose in tablet form and then only titrate the remaining 1mg (valium) that they are reducing. So if your overall dose is 5mg, you would take 4mg in tablet form and 1mg would be reduced over time using a titration method.

 

So when you make a “main batch” that would be the mixture containing the 1mg valium and that batch can be kept going for a period of time by taking out the amount you need for that particular dose and keeping the rest for future doses over the next few days.

 

So let’s say your actual dose was 4.2mg, you would take 4mg in tablet form, and if you’re using a 100ml solution/suspension, you would then take 20ml (equalling 0.2mg) out of the 100ml, leaving you with 80ml remaining. So that 80ml can be used for further doses. I hope that make sense.

 

Vodka would be okay to be kept in the cupboard, but keep it tightly capped so there’s no evaporation – not that that would matter. It’s just that you don’t want to waste any. 

 

I wouldn’t worry about using 1ml of vodka. Even those who have an alcohol problem probably shouldn’t have a problem with that small amount. Also, using the above example of how you can use that batch containing 1ml of vodka, you could potentially be spreading that 1ml out over a number of doses/days.

 

It’s not that I don’t like using milk. I felt it worked quite well when I was using it, but it’s just that there is always that question of whether the valium is suspended well enough, and milk does have a limited use by time. With the vodka you are actually making a proper solution, so suspension of the valium wouldn’t be a problem.

 

The size jar you would need, if you did use the milk method, wouldn’t have to hold any more than 100ml.

 

[[Di...]]

I understand just cutting with the liquid part. I've been doing rx LValium for a few months. But getting gi, and not feeling right at all.

 

I'm confused about making a large batch. I've been used to making 4 100ml batches, then taking out the daily cut from one of those each day. Would I continue this same method?

 

Thanks

Tom

 

So if you are making 4 x 100ml batches, and taking your dose out of one of the batches, are you then throwing away what's left of the batch after you've dosed?

 

There's really no need to do that. What's left of the batch could be used for your next dose/s. That's what I meant when I said you could measure out a few days' specific doses and store them in the fridge, so you (a) didn't have to worry about it being affected by the heat and (b) even if the valium and vodka separated, the measure of valium you needed for that dose would still be within that dose's liquid.

[[Di...]]

Sorry for all the questions.

High anxiety.

I am currently doing 2 divided doses of valium. With the night dose I do the liquid rx valium and 100ml solution.

 

I may have to stabilze at 5mg tablet for a while. This is not settling yet.

 

If I go to vodka and 1mg(split 2mg) tablet in 100ml solution at night with 2mg tablet, and 2mg tablet in daytime. Can I take the remaining 1mg(from the split 2mg) the next night with the taper dose. Does consecutive mean within the 24 hours, or should it be the very next dose? That would get complicated.

 

Thanks

Tom

 

I would say that within a 24 hour period should be fine.

[[Di...]]

Most vodkas are 80 proof (40% alcohol).  Obviously, the higher the ETOH, the greater the solubility.  But 1 mg ETOH will dissolve 41 mg V, so 1 ml 80 proof vodka will dissolve approx 16 mg V. You really shouldn't have to worry too much about how much vodka you will need/use.

 

I think Pam is dissolving 1 mg dry V in 1 ml vodka, then adding 99 ml water.  That makes her 100 ml "batch" and each ml contains .01 mg V.

 

Although I am using pharma-grade Rx liquid V, (1mg=1ml), I dilute it 9:1.  Currently, I make a "batch" of 200 ml, (20 ml liquid V and 180 ml water) and at current dosage (I am now using 100% liquid) that 200 ml lasts about 12 days.

 

Either way works.  I think Pam likes the 99:1 mix because there really isn't any math to figure.

 

True Dat!! Math is not my friend....lol...

[[in...]]

Hi Diaz,

So the batch making is the same as the LV it looks like. So far, I haven't kept any remaining for future batches. It gets complicated for me at that point.

 

So I did make up a practice batch today, with vodka 100ml solution. And I put it in fridge after swishing it. I may take it tonight.

I first let the 1mg tab dissolve in 1ml vodka, then added 99ml water and capped and swished back and forth. And some mixing.

Is that the correct way? And should I swish back and forth again before taking, or stir it a bit too?

 

Hope it would help my situation. And I hope my detox doc doesn't lose it when I tell him vodka.

Btw, regular pharmacy grad alcohol doesn't do the same dissolving as vodka?

 

Thanks

infoshar.

[[Di...]]

It's fine if you don't want to re-use the batch you've made up. I just hate to waste anything. 

 

Yes what you did sounds fine. That's exactly what I do. I put my 1mg tablet in the 1ml vodka. It takes only a matter of seconds for the tablet to break down and (I assume) for the valium to be dissolved. I swish it around for maybe another 5-10 seconds and then I add the 99ml of water. (Note - don't leave the valium sit in the straight vodka for too long, because the alcohol can evaporate and then you are left with a grungy paste apparently.)

 

Before, and while, I measure my dose I keep giving my liquid a good mix (usually by pulling up and down on the syringe plunger a few times). It's probably not necessary, but you tend to become a bit OCD when you're tapering 

 

The only thing I would say is don't keep it in the fridge until after you have measured out your dose. I don't have any specific knowledge on this, only what Okatz's partner said, who is a chemist, which is that there could be a possibility that the valium could come out of the alcohol when chilled. Like I said I don't know that for sure, but if a chemist has those reservations then I'm not going to take any chances.

 

To get around this you could measure out your dose as soon as you have made up the batch, and then store that dose in the fridge, then it won't matter if the valium and vodka separate. You will already have the amount of valium you need within the liquid for that dose.

 

I don't know anything about pharma grade alcohol, but I assume you can probably use it instead of vodka.

 

[[in...]]

Good. Thanks Diaz.

 

That's what I did. It's nice to see it dissolve so quickly.

 

Here in U.S. we have brown "alcohol" containers at pharmacies and stores. I guess it's for antiseptic, and not for ingestion, haven't read the label lately.

 

Believing for the best.

 

infoshar.

[[Di...]]

Yes, I guess that would be the thing you'd need to watch for - that it was for ingestion. If it is, as long as it has at least the same % of alcohol as vodka, it should be okay.

[[to...]]

my insurance only covers valium in pill form 2mg, etc. i find the liquid titration very confusing.

 

again, i'll be crossing over to 10 mg valium.

 

don't you feel if i can't do 1 mg in 2 weeks,

that 1/2 in 2 weeks or

1/2 mg for 3 weeks should's work well?

 

the crossing over is going well, and i was on ativan 2 1/2 mnths.

[[Di...]]

I can't comment on any particular taper. You have to taper the way you feel is right for you. Some people can follow the cut and hold method, but a lot of people can't. This method is just here for those who need/want it.

[[to...]]

i don't undestand at all what you are talking about. it sounds very confusing. no one just uses the ashton method sucessfully?

 

i will be on 10 mg valium and i have to try and figure out how to daily reduce my dose? i don't understand any of what you have said.

 

 

now it sounds like a nightmare. perhaps there is a youtube you can suggest. if i can' figure it out, i don't know what i'll do.

[Guest [Mo...]]

i don't undestand at all what you are talking about. it sounds very confusing. no one just uses the ashton method sucessfully?

 

i will be on 10 mg valium and i have to try and figure out how to daily reduce my dose? i don't understand any of what you have said.

 

 

now it sounds like a nightmare. perhaps there is a youtube you can suggest. if i can' figure it out, i don't know what i'll do.

 

Toulouz,

 

What I mean is that there are different ways to taper off.

You can simply start cutting off your tablets, by 5-10% . Per Ashton's manual.

If you make your first cut, I would advice to make it a small one for the first time, to see how and when you react to it.

If you reduce 0.5 mgr, that will take you to 9.5 mgr.

( this is a 5% cut btw).

This method is the dry cut method. And the rule of thumb is to cut every 10-14 days.

BUT... Not everyone is recovering from their previous cut at the same time. So, some cut every three weeks, some can cut faster.

We all metabolize this drug differently.

And since Valium has a long half life, you might not feel the cut right away. ( as opposed to sy Xanax or Ativan, which are short acting. On Ativan I felt the cut same day)

Many members feel it around day 6 after the cut. Some feel it after 10-14 days.

If you feel it after a longer time , let's say 10 days; it's not a good idea to cake your next cut already.

You kind of try to get to a better place again until making the next cut.

Or else your cutting rate exceeds your healing rate and the withdrawal symptoms can get very unpleasant.

 

Remember, when you go down,down in mgr, And keep reducing, your numbers might not stay " round" as in : exact 5% cuts.

Example: if you arrive at 4 mgr Valium and reduce 5%, that will be. 0.2 mgr reduction, which would take you to 3.8 mgr.

At this point, you will not be able to just cut that off your pills, because the pieces will be to small and eyeballing it is NOT a good idea.

 

So, when you get to the lower doses, you might want to look into buying a jewelers scale and weigh your pills and cut that way, by shaving off the percentage that way.

 

Many Valium users start a liquid daily taper at that point.

Which means you replace part of your dose by a liquid Valium solution ( either made by a compounding pharmacy who can make you the right suspension OR titrating your own ( dissolving a pill in a solution to make your own liquid: there are different methods to do all that)

 

I am doing a liquid DAILY taper.

I cut 0.05 mgr daily. So not cut and hold, because it was too hard on my system.

I make three reductions, three days in a  row and then I hold on the fourth day. Then cutting three days again. The hold the fourth.

This is easier on my system, for ME. I could not handle the larger cuts on dry cutting.

My method still reduces around 1 mgr a month. Which would be the same as making two dry cuts of 0.5 mgr.

 

So, yes, people still follow the manual, in general. But the methods differ and we can't all go the same speed.

It is not a matter of strictly going with your calendar, but by listening to your body when you taper off.

If your symptoms get unbearable , you wait with cutting, no matter what the calendar or your initial schedule says. It truly is a matter of trial and error.

 

Cutting faster will not get you better quicker, IMO.

Your GABA receptors have been pruned back due to benzo use. And they are regenerating ( healing) as you taper and go lower. Nothing will make that process go faster, especially not cutting while you're in a bad place already. You cut again as soon as you feel a bit better.

 

AnywY, I hope that explains it a bit more.

Sorry if this is too lengthy. I just remember it was so hard to figure this all out when I started here and so I want to make sure you get it.

 

Please post again if you don't get it. We have all been there.

 

And whatever you do, people are right here to help you figure out a plan or support you with what you're working with.

 

If you haven't done so, I recommend reading Parker's post about What's happening in your brain. It explains all about how this works, with your receptors, GABA, glutamate, symptoms, the whole what and how.

You can just click the link to the article in my signature below.

 

You will get there.... Please don't be discouraged. We have all done this.

Moo

[[Di...]]

Hi toulouz

 

I'm sorry you feel confused by all this, but please remember that this method is here only for those who want to use it. No one is saying you can't follow the Ashton Method. Many people do, but just as many people (or maybe more or less - who knows) find that once their dose gets into the lower figures they just can't do those larger cuts that are in the Ashton Method, and they need to switch to some kind of daily taper. This is just one kind of daily tapering method. There are other methods available.

 

I have replied to your PM, and hopefully I have explained the principle of the daily taper a bit better. If not, please reply on this thread so others can chime in as well and maybe make things a bit clearer for you.

[[ar...]]

Thanks DP.  I have studied your link but still can't get my addled brain around it.  When I'm on tabs I think liquid must be easier and then vice versa...even my pharmacist couldn't work it out!  I'm going by the Ashton slow taper scale using a 5ml and 1ml syringe. AND I'm going slower than my GP suggests as I really don't think he has a clue I'm coming down too fast (for me).  Another partner in the practice told me I was going far too fast, so hoping to make her my regular doctor as she seems more informed.

 

The bottom line appears to be that however you do it it ain't easy!  I have a long history of failed attempts yet I consider myself mentally quite strong. Another weird thing - for me, with every attempt I seem to have different withdrawal symptoms.  I always think I know what to expect but NO....

[[Di...]]

Can you tell me exactly what problem you are having with the method so hopefully I can explain it better.

[[ar...]]

Yes DP - have been on half a 5mg tab (2.5) now have liquid oral solution Diazepam in 2mg/5ml bottles (100ml).  A 5ml syringe and a 1ml syringe - attempting to follow Ashton slow taper coming down smallest amount possible e.g equivalent of 2.4mg.  I think that's a full 5ml syringe and a full 1ml but really not sure at all...

 

Any advice welcome  - you're a star!

[[Di...]]

Your type of liquid valium does often present a slight complication when it comes to titrating it, or doing a daily taper, because it’s not a straight forward 1:1 ratio like other liquids, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. You just need to do a few more calculations.

 

You need to understand the ratio of your liquid. Yours is 2mg=5ml which means that 1mg=2.5ml. To measure your current dose (2.5mg) directly from the liquid you would need to measure 1 x 5ml (= 2mg), then you would need to measure the additional 0.5mg which would be 1.25ml (5ml ÷ 4). So to get 2.5mg that would be 5ml + 1.25ml = 6.25ml.

 

If you wanted to do a daily reduction directly using the liquid you would then need to work out how much of a daily reduction you would need to do. I’m having trouble getting my head around how to do this, so I went back to my taper and saw that at your level it took me 80 days to reduce 1mg. That doesn’t mean that will also apply to you, but I’m just trying to get a number to use as a guide. So that would mean to reduce 2.5ml of your liquid (because that equals 1mg) over 80 days, it would be a reduction of 0.03ml per day which could be measured with a 1ml syringe. Of course you would need to play about with this figure to find out what suited you best.

 

So for your first daily cut it would be 6.25ml – 0.03ml = 6.22ml

Second day would be 6.22ml – 0.03ml = 6.19ml

Third day would be 6.19ml – 0.03ml = 6.16ml … and so on.

 

If you wanted to do a cut and hold type of taper you would just choose the amount you thought you could cut over a period of time – for example 0.03ml x 7 = 0.21ml per 7 days.

 

I hope I’ve got that right. I hope someone else checks my calculations.

 

However my preference would be to make a diluted solution with your liquid and reduce that. Firstly it will be easier to work out what each day’s dose should be, but more importantly if you use your liquid undiluted it is very concentrated, and that means there isn’t a lot of room for error when you measure your doses.

 

Is there any way you can get access to 2mg tablets, because that will make things a lot easier? If you can, then you could make a 100ml solution, using the equivalent of 1mg of your liquid (which is 2.5ml) and then add water to it to make a 100ml solution. This would be the part you would reduce from, and the rest of your dose you would take as a whole tablet. So for your current dose that would be – 2mg tablet + the additional 0.5mg would be reduced using the 100ml valium/water solution.

 

So to make up a 100ml valium solution, using your liquid, you would add 2.5ml of LV to 97.5ml of water and that would make a total of 100ml, which would equal 1mg of valium. Then you would follow the steps shown under REDUCTION METHOD in the first post of this thread.

 

I’m sorry, reading back over this post it all sounds very complicated. I hope it’s not. Maybe someone can chime in if they have some simpler/better ideas.

 

[[ar...]]

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such depth, DP.  Will re-read and try and get my head around it all.  Feel rough today...no wonder, appears I've taken too little...

[[Di...]]

I hope I got all those calculations right, but I'm fairly sure I did. I think someone would have set me straight by now if it was wrong...lol...

 

I think you might have slightly under-dosed too. Hopefully things will settle in a couple of days.

[[Fr...]]

DP, I am looking into doing a daily taper after this most recent cut of .5mg, I'm now at 6.5mg - I think I get the gist of what to do, but I have a couple of questions, so I will probably blow up this thread when it comes time lol. I'm only 5 days out from my last cut and don't wanna think about reducing again at the moment, but soonish.

 

First question - Can you explain the difference if any of using milk and vodka? Is one better than the other? If so, then why?

 

I'm an alcoholic, sober for just over a year and I don't really want to delve into using vodka unless it has clear benefits. At this point I don't think it'd tempt me to drink as much as I'm just weary of it. If milk works just as well, that'd be the clear option for me lol.

 

Thanks, and thanks in advance, as I'm sure I'll have more questions soon

[[Di...]]

Hi Frotob

 

Sure, ask away when you're ready.

 

Regarding milk vs vodka, I can't say that one is better than the other. I guess it just depends on your own personal preference. The main difference is that vodka will actually dissolve the valium, thus making a proper solution, where full fat milk will only create a suspension. However, provided you keep the milk mixed well while you are measuring your dose, that shouldn't create any problems. Of course milk also has a natural use by date as well, but I never kept my batches going any longer than 4-5 days anyway.

 

If you have an alcohol problem the 1ml you use to dissolve the 1mg of valium shouldn't present a problem. You could use even less if you wanted to because 1ml will dissolve quite a large amount of valium. However, if actually having the vodka in the house presents a problem in itself, then that should definitely be something you take into account.

[[ar...]]

I hope I got all those calculations right, but I'm fairly sure I did. I think someone would have set me straight by now if it was wrong...lol...

 

I think you might have slightly under-dosed too. Hopefully things will settle in a couple of days.

 

I have decided to stick on 2.5 for a few days longer at least as I only have to look at the bottle and syringe to start panicking...  I've been on 2.5 for a month now but not sure I'm ready for the next step, however tiny.  My doctor is on her hols so I can't discuss it with her (I've just changed doctors as the previous one has - I know - brought me down too fast).  My daughter wants me to go back up to 3mg as she has (rightly) noticed a negative change and worries!  Is it ever possible to stabilize ready to tackle the next stage?  Possibly not...yes I know, we're all different!

 

Oh these bad days....

[[Di...]]

Stabilising should definitely be possible, provided you just wait it out for a while. Sometimes a longer hold really helps. For some unknown reason I ended up holding for around 2 months when I got to 1mg. I suspect I could have also been experiencing some hormonal issues that compounded the problem, but that longer hold definitely was the right thing for me to do. I think it also helped me finish my taper in a fairly good place.

 

I wouldn't like to say whether or not you should go back to 3mg. I suppose it depends on how quickly you went down to 2.5mg. If you feel you may have dropped a bit too quickly it could help you stabilise more quickly. I'm not someone who thinks that updoses should never be done, especially with a daily taper, although I prefer to call them "dose corrections" because generally with a daily taper you would be increasing by a fairly small amount. I have done a couple of small dose corrections during my taper and they did definitely help me, but it's really your call. Maybe instead of doing an updose of a full 0.5mg, you could try a smaller dose correction of say 0.2mg, and see how that feels.

[[ar...]]

Your views are always appreciated, DP.  I would prefer not to go back to 3mg (I went from 5mg to 3mg over two months and have been on 2.5 for about 5-6 weeks.  The first two cuts weren't too bad (though I now realise this was pretty quick despite the fact it was done - supposedly - under medical supervision!) but 3mg to 2.5 has been horrendous.  I will try sticking a bit longer but not ruling out going back to 3mg.  There's only so much one can cope with...  

[[Di...]]

I commiserate arty. This is a very difficult thing to do, but your dose is getting really low now, so the end is coming into view.